98 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

As seen on Twitter from popular F1 account ‘chain bear’

https://x.com/chainb...jNzYI1wHgQ5OZzw

I think the McLaren/Senna thing is a bit of a cynical cash grab - limited edition ‘merch drops’ and helmet/car replicas to generate some more dosh.

But 30 years on from Imola 94 is a lot of the Senna sentiment clouded by legend and distorted by the lens of worship?

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 26 May 2024 - 06:43.

[Acathla]

Every penny that goes to the Senna foundation etc. is a win. For me personally, all is a bit too much, but each to his own. 

[SophieB]

Yes, I think there’s something to what he’s saying. The comparison to the selling and wearing of Poppies for veterans is apt, I think. It’s possible to be both keenly supportive of the aims of the campaign, be happy to wear the poppy and yet at the same time find the ramping up of it, the pressure to be part of it and even the policing of who is not wearing one, uncomfortable, even oppressive. Yet because it’s a good cause, voicing this can come across as churlish. After all, it’s a good cause! I support it! I was a huge fans of Senna and don’t want him forgotten, and yet….

[loki]

Nope.  Not for me.

[AncientLurker]

Yes. Absolutely.

[H0R]

Yes. Then again I am biased against Senna anyway,

[P123]

Uncomfortable.......

 

As in, I think I'd prefer if all this was in celebration of one of his many achievements and it's anniversary, rather than aligned with his death (for which a quiet moment of silence would be most respectful?).

 

As in, Roland is forgotten about a little too much in all of this.  There was a moment in FP2 when they mentioned Senna, and the camera also panned to Lauda's helmet in the Merc garage... but silence with regards Roland.  Seemed a little off.

 

As in, the driver tribute helmets are more to do with a tie in to team promotion rather than them being fans.

 

As in, the McLaren livery is nice enough, but the colour hues seem wrong, and it doesn't really lean into/ recall his time at McLaren.

 

 

But no, I wouldn't say anything is clouded by sentiment.  Senna's faults are well remembered.  And his passing at the time was an absolutely seismic happening that made headlines worldwide.

[TauriJ]

I mean its 30 years. They are not doing it every season.

 

Fine with it.

[noikeee]

Yes but a thread about it is making it even more uncomfortable.

[TheFish]

Yeah I think it's a bit much.

 

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if it was also done for other drivers, but it's only ever Senna. Anyone younger than Hamilton is going to struggle to remember Senna so it sort of feels weird to have these youngsters involved in it... and I'm not sure why people keep doing things for Senna.

[Coral]

No. I'm fine with it.

[chdphd]

[Stephane]

It was already before he died

[Zava]

As in, Roland is forgotten about a little too much in all of this.

 

on the contrary. without meaning any disrespect to Ratzenberger, he is only paid tribute this much because he and Senna shared their last weekends. 

[Stephane]

That's what I've been saying for years. Roland would have really been forgotten without Senna.

Now is the guy we need to talk about because someone will tell him us we forgot. I am not sure it is that great, but forgotten he's not.

[P123]

on the contrary. without meaning any disrespect to Ratzenberger, he is only paid tribute this much because he and Senna shared their last weekends. 

 

You could be right.  That's another way of looking at it anyway!

[Victor]

Yes. Then again I am biased against Senna anyway,

+1

[Henri Greuter]

That's what I've been saying for years. Roland would have really been forgotten without Senna.

Now is the guy we need to talk about because someone will tell him us we forgot. I am not sure it is that great, but forgotten he's not.

Which in itself is bad enough:  being dragged back into memories because of someone else dying as well that weekend.

Not worthy enough to be remembered because of his own achiemvents and on his own merits.

[BoDarvelle]

Senna wouldn't be remembered nearly as fondly if he hadn't died on track.

 

The over the top lionizing became tiresome years ago.

 

*I'm not a Senna hater so don't bother going there.

[highdownforce]

Yes, it is.

And I say this as someone who had Senna as a childhood idol in Brazil.

And is getting a lot worse.

[Rediscoveryx]

Well it is a bit weird that the 30th anniversary is made into a bigger deal than the 20th or 10th. Perhaps even the 1st…

Maybe it’s possible that this says more about life in 2024 than anything else.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 25 May 2024 - 01:44.

[Boxerevo]

I am very ok with it.

 

I think we just have to hope to be alive to celebrate the 50th year.

[jradicals]

I know it was reported that their shirts were 'stolen', but the outrage at Verstappen and Bottas not wearing Senna shirts at Imola reminded me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer doesn't want to wear the AIDS ribbon 

[404KF2]

Yeah, the widespread modern cult of celebrating places and dates of death strikes me as bizarre. You see it on highways: makeshift memorials for people who made a mistake or two or were unlucky and died in a car. I'd rather remember lives lived, not places of terror for the departed.

 

As for Senna, I found him to be a very annoying personality, even though he was clearly a great driver.

[Nobody]

I would never try and tell anyone how to feel about something so the feeling of it being over the top is understandable.

At the same time it is a testament to Senna's legacy that so many want to express their appreciation and the impact it has had on them, and the sport as a whole.

On the question of McLaren, anyone who is old enough to have been a fan during that period, will agree the red and white McLaren and Senna were almost ubiquitous, this team going all out is a great tribute, and there is no more fitting place to do it than Monaco.

Edited by Nobody, 25 May 2024 - 05:14.

[SophieB]

Which in itself is bad enough:  being dragged back into memories because of someone else dying as well that weekend.

Not worthy enough to be remembered because of his own achiemvents and on his own merits.

I read a very poignant interview with his parents who said that actually they find it a comfort that at least he died in such close proximity to Senna precisely because it means it’s remembered as a dual tragedy. They take a pragmatic approach that overall it means more people think about their son more often and that he will always be remembered, even if less so, while people still remember Ayrton.

[PitViperRacing]

52 people have died in Forumla One. I understand Senna is the most famous/accomplished of those 52, but still. Very over the top imo.

[manmower]

A-hole worship in general is a big social issue if you ask me.

[messy]

I agree that Ratzenberger is remembered and his story told so often only because he shared his last weekend with Senna and it’s part of the whole “blackest weekend in F1” narrative. Personally I think maybe it’s hit the level it has with Senna because his death was so public, on a Sunday afternoon with millions watching it on TV. You just can’t get away from how massive it was for F1, but also how absolutely shocking the whole thing was for people watching at home. The story of Imola ‘94 is a very sad one, but also such a strong one. It’s going to be told and retold for decades to come and you’ve got all the images and film to go with it. At what point does it become less about Senna himself and more about the whole Imola ‘94 story, and that’s where I maybe start to wonder if it’s all a bit distasteful, a bit ‘tragedy porn’.

That said, no doubt Senna had this massive influence and devoted following in F1 and beyond, I’m maybe just slightly too young to know exactly what that felt like and whether it’d be the same if he was still alive now or whether the nature of his death kind of elevated his story. I genuinely don’t know, I kind of rely on the older posters for that. Imola ‘94 was my introduction to him.

[MattK9]

Senna won 6 Monaco GPs in a Mclaren. So yes, they are going to worship him. Although it also looks a bit like a cynical marketing exercise. It must be hard for Norris or Piastri to really to worship Senna has he died before they were born.

I have never liked calling Imola 94 the darkest weekend in F1 when it just isn't.

[SiS]

Whilst it was truly shocking at the time and leaves some very vivid memories, to be honest I think F1 should let it go.

It always makes me uncomfortable that the likes of Imola 94 and Suzuka 14 are commemorated but anniversaries of events such as Albert Park 2000 and Monza 2001 drift by unnoticed. These individuals gave just as much for a helluva lot less.

[Beri]

I find it repulsive to hoist everyone in the Senna colors at Imola and have everyone "celebrate" his life. Only for it to look like that someone thought "oh yeah, we need to do something for Ratzenberger too.. let's put his helmet on the grid then and that's it"

Yes, Vettel drove in a 50/50 helmet. But it was cringe worthy how Ratzenberger was "remembered" in between the Senna violence by the official program that Imola put together. Disgusting even.

[DW46]

52 people have died in Forumla One. I understand Senna is the most famous/accomplished of those 52, but still. Very over the top imo.

Some greats like Villeneuve, Peterson, Von Tripps, Clark and Rindt. It’s tragic how many of the sports legends have been killed whilst competing.

[Stoffel]

Yep.

What I don't understand either is young drivers saying Senna was their idol while he had been dead for 10 years before they were born. At most they have seen some of his famous antics, Monaco pole lap and the documentary.

It feels as if they feel obligated to say these things because that's the socially populair thing to say while in fact they grew up idolising Hamilton (or someone else from that generation).

[Mark A]

52 people have died in Forumla One. I understand Senna is the most famous/accomplished of those 52, but still. Very over the top imo.

That’s an interesting one, the world of F1 was much bigger in 94 and more accessible on TV than for any of the previous deaths in F1 but if we take a person who I think was a greater driver than Senna, Jim Clark.

 

There are some key differences with Senna, it was at a time in racing where more drivers died, it was at a time where the media reach isn’t where it is today, or even 30 years ago and the team he was synonymous with no longer exists.

 

However, there are still celebrations, Hockenheim has a large Jim Clark event, I’ve been a few times, when F1 had 2 championships the lower drivers one was the Jim Clark Cup. There are still celebrations of his life regularly in the local area and an important rally is also named after him, plus many corners at many race circuits around the world, he is still mentioned quite a bit today, more so than perhaps Lauda.

 

There is a large Senna presence this year as it’s an anniversary, next year, or maybe even after Monaco, except perhaps at the Brazilian GP there will be little said, as has been the way for some time. I probably disagree it’s over the top, if it is only those 3 events this year, I may change my mind if we have it all season.

 

I guess the other question is Schumacher, possibly the next F1 great after Senna. Had he died in that skiing incident, do we think we would see memorial events and celebrations of him at Senna levels? Possibly, but if he dies in 20-30years time would that still happen, probably not as his time in F1 would be so long ago, and the huge following he had will have dwindled away, and I think it would be similar to what we see for someone like Lauda, I also think this will be the case for Jackie Stewart. Sadly they will be less remembered because they lived longer.

 

 

As an aside, the 52 you mention comes from quite a specific Wiki list and it is a strange list IMHO, on that list of the 52, 32 were at F1 championship events, and 7 of those were at the Indy500.
At actual F1 race weekends it was 25. I would also include the 7 killed in testing then contemporary F1 cars so back at 32.
It doesn’t include those large F1 stars killed away from F1, I’d say the death of the person I mention above at an F2 race whilst he was still competing, and winning, in F1 is of more relevance to F1 deaths than someone tragically killed in a 30 year old F1 car at a historic F1 race.

It also doesn’t include Maria de Villota.

[garoidb]

Senna won 6 Monaco GPs in a Mclaren. So yes, they are going to worship him. Although it also looks a bit like a cynical marketing exercise. It must be hard for Norris or Piastri to really to worship Senna has he died before they were born.

I have never liked calling Imola 94 the darkest weekend in F1 when it just isn't.

 

One of them was in the Camel Lotus, so five for McLaren. Alain got four with them. The worship isn't really about Monaco success but some combination of excellence, personality and tragic destiny. I was an F1 fan when he was racing - he had a period when he was considered the best but it wasn't utter domination. There was the gang of four, with Senna and Mansell being the aggressive chargers. Many loved Senna more than the others, as always happens. Before Senna, Villeneuve was also deified and still is. Not every driver who dies has this, of course, but no driver who lives gets it. 

[PayasYouRace]

It almost surprises me that Senna is actually the only World Champion killed in a Formula 1 car. Rindt became champion posthumously. That it happened in the modern era when most people were watching live on TV made it all the more shocking.

 

I certainly don’t blame McLaren for putting in a bit of extra effort on the 30th anniversary year, at Monaco. He won all his championships with them, and five of his six Monacos. He’s a huge part of that team means to F1’s history and legacy. I think it’s a real positive that we’re seeing McLaren celebrate his achievements. We don’t have Williams running a tribute livery.

 

McLaren have also made a point of special liveries lately. So this isn’t unique to Senna. Last year they did the Triple Crown one, which had nothing to do with Senna.

 

Senna was a big character, and it’s understandable that he’s left a legacy of both extreme devotion and vilification. It’s not like the detractors don’t get their day, so we’re always reminded of his dangerous on track antics.

[Mark A]

Yep.

What I don't understand either is young drivers saying Senna was their idol while he had been dead for 10 years before they were born. At most they have seen some of his famous antics, Monaco pole lap and the documentary.

It feels as if they feel obligated to say these things because that's the socially populair thing to say while in fact they grew up idolising Hamilton (or someone else from that generation).

Perhaps, but in my case I grew up watching F1 in the 80’s originally and was a fan of many drivers, but my F1 idol was Jim Clark, someone who died about 5 years before my birth.

This is the same with Dario Franchitti, i’m the same age as Dario and we come from the same area, and Karted at the same circuits.

Perhaps it’s that Scottish heritage, but Jackie Stewart has never held that same feeling for me.

 

Its why I owned Lotus’s, I’ve been to the Museum a number of times, I’ve been to the Clark event at Hockenheim a few times, my large motorsport book collection has many Clark titles. He will always be the one for me.

[garoidb]

That’s an interesting one, the world of F1 was much bigger in 94 and more accessible on TV than for any of the previous deaths in F1 but if we take a person who I think was a greater driver than Senna, Jim Clark.

 

There are some key differences with Senna, it was at a time in racing where more drivers died, it was at a time where the media reach isn’t where it is today, or even 30 years ago and the team he was synonymous with no longer exists.

 

However, there are still celebrations, Hockenheim has a large Jim Clark event, I’ve been a few times, when F1 had 2 championships the lower drivers one was the Jim Clark Cup. There are still celebrations of his life regularly in the local area and an important rally is also named after him, plus many corners at many race circuits around the world, he is still mentioned quite a bit today, more so than perhaps Lauda.

 

There is a large Senna presence this year as it’s an anniversary, next year, or maybe even after Monaco, except perhaps at the Brazilian GP there will be little said, as has been the way for some time. I probably disagree it’s over the top, if it is only those 3 events this year, I may change my mind if we have it all season.

 

I guess the other question is Schumacher, possibly the next F1 great after Senna. Had he died in that skiing incident, do we think we would see memorial events and celebrations of him at Senna levels? Possibly, but if he dies in 20-30years time would that still happen, probably not as his time in F1 would be so long ago, and the huge following he had will have dwindled away, and I think it would be similar to what we see for someone like Lauda, I also think this will be the case for Jackie Stewart. Sadly they will be less remembered because they lived longer.

 

 

As an aside, the 52 you mention comes from quite a specific Wiki list and it is a strange list IMHO, on that list of the 52, 32 were at F1 championship events, and 7 of those were at the Indy500.
At actual F1 race weekends it was 25. I would also include the 7 killed in testing then contemporary F1 cars so back at 32.
It doesn’t include those large F1 stars killed away from F1, I’d say the death of the person I mention above at an F2 race whilst he was still competing, and winning, in F1 is of more relevance to F1 deaths than someone tragically killed in a 30 year old F1 car at a historic F1 race.

It also doesn’t include Maria de Villota.

 

Great post. Jim Clark's success compares with Senna's and he was the leading driver in the years up to his death. Happily, Jackie and Niki have had long lives, with Niki's being a little shorter sadly. Niki's heroism is remembered and clouds out his driving achievements somewhat but Stewart was a great, great driver. Maria de Villota deserves to be remembered as much as Roland and other drivers who followed their dreams.

[PayasYouRace]

 

 

As an aside, the 52 you mention comes from quite a specific Wiki list and it is a strange list IMHO, on that list of the 52, 32 were at F1 championship events, and 7 of those were at the Indy500.
At actual F1 race weekends it was 25. I would also include the 7 killed in testing then contemporary F1 cars so back at 32.
It doesn’t include those large F1 stars killed away from F1, I’d say the death of the person I mention above at an F2 race whilst he was still competing, and winning, in F1 is of more relevance to F1 deaths than someone tragically killed in a 30 year old F1 car at a historic F1 race.

It also doesn’t include Maria de Villota.

I don’t think that list is strange at all. It’s all properly caveated and details show exactly what’s happened. The Indy 500 fatalities are noted as being in Champ Cars and it was only a result of the race’s non-championship status. It’s good that it includes the testing and historic racing fatalities as it means they also get remembered.

 

Maria de Villota didn’t die in an F1 car. Neither did any of the F1 stars who dies elsewhere so the list shouldn’t include them. It wouldn’t be a list of any utility if it was a list of F1 drivers who died in subjectively tragic circumstances outside of driving a Formula 1 car.

 

That doesn’t mean we can’t remember losses like Clark’s. But Team Lotus hasn’t existed since 1994, neither F1 or F2 race at Hockenheim, and it happened another three decades earlier. So we can understand a greater distance from that tragedy.

[danmills]

I've said it a fair few times on here and met with relative tumbleweed, its a hard view to get across without coming off too sensitive.

 

The fact money goes to the foundation is amazing and wonderful in itself. But the obsession of Senna, his legacy, his colours, the McLaren ties, I feel has snowballed to just be easy marketing points. None of this would exist if he hadn't sadly perished, and I also feel his greatness and legacy would also not be as hyped.

 

Prost also won three titles. Red Bull doesn't milk Vettel, nor does Ferrari with Schumacher.

 

The 30 year thing was a moment. But I can't help but feel it's distasteful to all the other drivers the sport has lost.

[CSF]

I will clarify this to say I am a Senna sceptic. 

 

I've always found the mythology surrounding Senna rather odd. There's a lot of usually well rounded people who have convinced themselves that he was unbeatable perfect driver and person. Matt Bishop is a  great example in his wonderful new podcast with Richard Williams on the history of Motorsport. 

 

Matt spoke about two rather odd things in the Senna episode that I found quesitonable, firstly this feeling that Williams stole Ayrton and he was McLaren's driver and they felt differently towards Williams after his death.  Which I find remarkable given in September 1993 McLaren's race team were openly discussing with journalists that they were happy Ayrton was moving on because his behaviour in 92/93 had been so exhausting. That's not Ron Dennis by the way, lower downs were saying that around the time it was finally announced he was going to Williams. So did this all happen post death because of revisionism?

 

Secondly Matt then created a totally nonsensical theory that an agining, and showing signs of being past his peak (93 is waaay to highly regarded...), Senna would win every title between 94 and 2001 because of some lore that 94 would carry on as it did (hmmm) and 95 Williams would magically fix all of its team and reliability problems and then in 1998 Senna and Newey would walk out and skip to McLaren for an emotional reunion with McLaren and would dominate well into the next century. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

A fantastic driver yes, but there's been so much drivel, especially in the last decade, that clouds that for me. 

[P123]

I've said it a fair few times on here and met with relative tumbleweed, its a hard view to get across without coming off too sensitive.

 

The fact money goes to the foundation is amazing and wonderful in itself. But the obsession of Senna, his legacy, his colours, the McLaren ties, I feel has snowballed to just be easy marketing points. None of this would exist if he hadn't sadly perished, and I also feel his greatness and legacy would also not be as hyped.

 

Prost also won three titles. Red Bull doesn't milk Vettel, nor does Ferrari with Schumacher.

 

The 30 year thing was a moment. But I can't help but feel it's distasteful to all the other drivers the sport has lost.

 

The helmet colours, the Senna S branding, the Suzuka ticket lottery, the charitable works, business interests.... all a 'thing' whilst Senna was alive.  Who knows what else he would have gone on to achieve in the sport and outside it.  His death an add-on to a legend that was already very much present.  All pre-internet hype trains and social media celebrity.  It would only have grown as he continued on, so I'm not sure I'd quite agree that his greatness or legacy would not be as 'hyped'.  It would just be presented differently, as opposed to being encompassed in displays of remembrance.  If anything, his death being much remembered is a symptom of the media at that time- millions did not see Clark's fatal accident.  Millions did see Senna's accident....who at that time was among the world's most famous sportsmen.

[TAFormula1]

The helmet colours, the Senna S branding, the Suzuka ticket lottery, the charitable works, business interests.... all a 'thing' whilst Senna was alive.  Who knows what else he would have gone on to achieve in the sport and outside it.  His death an add-on to a legend that was already very much present.  All pre-internet hype trains and social media celebrity.  It would only have grown as he continued on, so I'm not sure I'd quite agree that his greatness or legacy would not be as 'hyped'.  It would just be presented differently, as opposed to being encompassed in displays of remembrance.  If anything, his death being much remembered is a symptom of the media at that time- millions did not see Clark's fatal accident.  Millions did see Senna's accident....who at that time was among the world's most famous sportsmen.

 

Yea thats 100% true, most people don't realize just how short Senna's career was, and he only really had the best car on the grid in 88 and 89, and in those years his teammate was an all time great (Prost), in 90 the mclaren was competitive but the ferrari had the edge in some things and in 91 the williams was really the best car, only hampered by a few realiability issues at the start of the season.

 

And don't forget what an awful car the williams was in 94 when stripped of all the aids that it was built for, yet hill was way slower than Senna in every single way, outpaced completely in qualifing and in brazil he was 1 lap behind and Senna was actually closing the gap on Schumacher, with THAT AWFUL CAR and got that car on pole 3 times in 3 races.

Had Senna not crashed in Imola, once the williams would have been fixed aerodynamically (Hill who was way slower than Senna was competitive vs Schumacher) , and assuming he would stay at Williams, he would have been several times more world champion, tons more wins, poles etc... and his legend and legacy would be just as great as it is now.

Also just because some people don't like Senna or are not really a fan or don't care much for him doesn't change the fact that alot of people do regard him very highly, for alot of people he is either their favorite driver or they really appreciate his skill and talent and the person, or some people especially in brazil plain worship him.

So no, I don't think its too much, I think the only people who say that are just haters.

Edited by TAFormula1, 25 May 2024 - 09:21.

[FirstnameLastname]

I will clarify this to say I am a Senna sceptic.

I've always found the mythology surrounding Senna rather odd. There's a lot of usually well rounded people who have convinced themselves that he was unbeatable perfect driver and person. Matt Bishop is a great example in his wonderful new podcast with Richard Williams on the history of Motorsport.

Matt spoke about two rather odd things in the Senna episode that I found quesitonable, firstly this feeling that Williams stole Ayrton and he was McLaren's driver and they felt differently towards Williams after his death. Which I find remarkable given in September 1993 McLaren's race team were openly discussing with journalists that they were happy Ayrton was moving on because his behaviour in 92/93 had been so exhausting. That's not Ron Dennis by the way, lower downs were saying that around the time it was finally announced he was going to Williams. So did this all happen post death because of revisionism?

Secondly Matt then created a totally nonsensical theory that an agining, and showing signs of being past his peak (93 is waaay to highly regarded...), Senna would win every title between 94 and 2001 because of some lore that 94 would carry on as it did (hmmm) and 95 Williams would magically fix all of its team and reliability problems and then in 1998 Senna and Newey would walk out and skip to McLaren for an emotional reunion with McLaren and would dominate well into the next century. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

A fantastic driver yes, but there's been so much drivel, especially in the last decade, that clouds that for me.

That podcast has been superb, but that moment in the Senna three-parter was very tedious. Rewriting history to say senna was even better than his achievements showed, and essentially saying Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen owe their championships to senna being dead - else senna would have had 10+ WDCs

Even Richard seemed uncomfortable at that point

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 25 May 2024 - 09:30.

[TAFormula1]

That podcast has been superb, but that moment in the Senna three-parter was very tedious. Rewriting history to say senna was even better than his achievements showed, and essentially saying Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen owe their championships to senna being dead - else senna would have had 10+ WDCs

Even Richard seemed uncomfortable at that point

Thats pretty crazy but if you are a Senna fan or a hater, you can't deny how good he was and I don't think you can honestly say that if Senna would not crash out in imola and die its highly likely he would have won some more championships, and certainly had alot more poles, wins etc.. and that would obviously affect other drivers in having less, its just basic math.

The thing that is the worst for me personally is that we didn't get to see the big rivalry that would have been in the 90s between Schumacher and Senna, and Schumacher himself had to leave and go to Ferrari just to make things more interesting since he had no great rival at that point.

[Collombin]

There's a lot of usually well rounded people who have convinced themselves that he was unbeatable perfect driver and person

Funnily enough, on this forum (rather than the world at large) I think this is also true of Clark. I've actually become a bit wary of continually having to add a bit of necessary context or offering better examples to some of the stuff posted about Clark as it might have started to look like I had an agenda against him, rather than just trying to redress the balance a bit!

[AlexPrime]

Nah, he deserves it

[Nobody]

I'd say one of the attributes that many find endearing about Senna was his obviously flawed and heart on your sleeve personality, displaying ruthlessness and vulnerability without being bound to people's expectations of a person in his position.

[TAFormula1]

Funnily enough, on this forum (rather than the world at large) I think this is also true of Clark. I've actually become a bit wary of continually having to add a bit of necessary context or offering better examples to some of the stuff posted about Clark as it might have started to look like I had an agenda against him, rather than just trying to redress the balance a bit!

There might be a select few that are extreme and think Senna or Clark or some other driver is perfect, flawless, a god etc... but I don't think the majority do to be honest, for example I have a few drivers in the very top echelon of drivers and any of them can win a race against the others on any given day, and yet none of them are prefect and each has their own flaws.