98 replies to this topic

[prty]

I doubt that the PR people who are behind this even care about Senna.

It is likely something like this:

 

- It is a positive message so it will be generally accepted -> check

- It will increase attention near our sponsors logos and help sell merchandising -> check

- Let's do it

Edited by prty, 25 May 2024 - 10:46.

[LB]

The deification is in danger of losing the first i tbh 

[Collombin]

The worst (but most amusing) element of Senna worship I ever saw was a programme that at one point featured a thirty something obsessive Senna fan who was wearing all the merchandise whilst showing his toddler son an old clip of that iconic number 12 JPS Lotus being spectacularly hurled around Monaco in the pouring rain. I kid you not.

[moreland]

I was following Formula 1 at the time Senna was driving and my take on the question about whether he's only become a legend as a result of his early death, I'd say definitely not. He was already being seen as a god-like figure even while he was driving, particularly by 1993 when he took his epic wins in Brazil and Donington, along with some other flair moments such as his first lap in Canada and generally taking the fight to Prost in a far worse car. He definitely had detractors at points of his career though. I remember the crowd cheered when he spun out of the lead in Silverstone in 1989 and booed him on the podium at Silverstone in 1990. By 1993 though, although there was no internet so it was harder to sense the overall mood, judging by who had fans and got the applause at racetracks, letters in magazines and just when I'd meet other Formula 1 fans, it was the "default" to be a Senna fan.

 

And yes there are other drivers who've won 3+ championships or 40+ races who aren't worshipped in the same way, all I can say is you had to watch the races. Senna was mesmerisingly good in many of the races and championships he didn't win and I'm not sure if you can say that about the likes of Vettel, Piquet or many of the others.

[Ben1445]

Yes.

[P123]

That podcast has been superb, but that moment in the Senna three-parter was very tedious. Rewriting history to say senna was even better than his achievements showed, and essentially saying Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen owe their championships to senna being dead - else senna would have had 10+ WDCs

Even Richard seemed uncomfortable at that point

 

Yes, the what-if game could be played endlessly.  But we see that on this forum too when it comes to Schumacher and the 99 more championships he would apparently have if not for x,y and z.  It was the same prior to his comeback, where he was going to come in, show them all up as amateurs and smash the field.

[TMC44]

I was not a Senna fan, but people questioning if he was that good I find rather strange.

My favourite type of racing is FF1600, been waching it since 1977. Now in that time I cannot think of a better driver that I have seen in FF1600 than Senna. People were already saying he was something special when I first saw him race in March 1981. 

He then went on to further his reputation by winning the FF2000 and F3 championships. So I would say he was special from the start, and one of the greatest drivers in F1, all be it a flawed one.

As for has he been hyped up because of his death, maybe a bit. But is that not the same as a lot of people in the public eye who pass away.

[FirstnameLastname]

Yes, the what-if game could be played endlessly. But we see that on this forum too when it comes to Schumacher and the 99 more championships he would apparently have if not for x,y and z. It was the same prior to his comeback, where he was going to come in, show them all up as amateurs and smash the field.

‘Could win in a Minardi’ was always a classic

[PayasYouRace]

The worst (but most amusing) element of Senna worship I ever saw was a programme that at one point featured a thirty something obsessive Senna fan who was wearing all the merchandise whilst showing his toddler son an old clip of that iconic number 12 JPS Lotus being spectacularly hurled around Monaco in the pouring rain. I kid you not.

As in, a clip of Mansell?

[Red5ive]

As seen on Twitter from popular F1 account ‘chain bear’

https://x.com/chainb...jNzYI1wHgQ5OZzw

I think the McLaren/Senna thing is a bit of a cynical cash grab - limited edition ‘merch drops’ and helmet/car replicas to generate some more dosh.

But 30 years on from Imola 94 is a lot of the Senna sentiment clouded by legend and distorted by the lens of worship?

I said exactly the same in the McLaren thread.

 

a “tribute” livery - fine and also driver helmets but then the total “look at us “ bombarding of social media by the team and the sale of souvenir merch leaves a bad smell.

[Leibowitz]

He was a great driver no doubt about it, but I detested him during his time in F1. I started watching F1 in 1990 so one of my earliest memories was Japan and it certainly left a bad impression about him. I still have a very negative view about him for a myraid of reasons. His egomania, fanaticism (not in a good way), arrogance, on-track behavior, him willing to risk other people’s lives to prove a point being one of many reasons.
As for his die hard fans later on, I’ll always hold against them the unnecessary smearing of Prost.

[danmills]

For all his good deeds, Senna was involved in some very poor taste antics on track, as bad as Schumacher. He had a massive ego, look at his treatment of Irvine's debut years.

 

Schumacher was berated for it, the same stuff. A pantomime villian of the time. But he too did wondrous charity work. But we remember the villain .

 

Senna's passing gave him this shroud of invincibility whereby you can't slate those not here to defend themselves. So he's only had the wash of positivity. And because that's all we're unofficially allowed to say, he's reached mythical status.

 

In present day and if he were still here, we would be allowed to call him a grass hole for some of those things and our opinion would be welcomed.

Edited by danmills, 26 May 2024 - 10:15.

[garoidb]

If his career had run its course, he could have won some more world championships but not to a degree that would have dwarfed Schumacher or later Hamilton (and possibly not Vettel or Prost). Two more would have been a good return. He would now be a past champion whose F1 knowledge is out of date, with that fact outweighed by a broader link to the history of F1. He would likely have said some things that were not universally popular, or become aligned with a driver or team and divided loyalties that way. He just wouldn't stand out in history the way he does now. None of this is to criticise him, because there is nothing wrong with any of it. He would be better off if this is what had happened. 

[Ali_G]

Was getting sickening even 10 years ago. It’s got to the point where Senna is being deified.

The biggest loser here is always Prost. While very different drivers, Prost was every bit as good a driver.

[Gravelngrass]

Yeah, I mean, it was inevitable that he would turn into an infallible driver after 1994. The driving talent that has been attributed to him after his untimely passing, however, has been greatly exaggerated. He's often seen as this driver that would go into a trance, especially when qualifying, and could achieve almost impossible driving feats. This, coupled with his emotionality, the drama on some of his performances and the fanaticism of his Brazilian followers, were the perfect ingredients to create this almost mythical figure. The reality is that he was a great driver, but probably not on a level above many of his contemporaries, especially, his greatest rival, Prost.

 

In retrospect, personally, he'll be remembered mostly as an amazing qualifier and wet-track driver with a huge brain fade in 1990 that was lucky not to have caused horrible consequences. A very fast, very emotional and mystical driver with a chip on his shoulder and a spoiled brat attitude that somewhat clouded his accomplishments.      

[George Costanza]

Ayrton was wonderful driver, definitely the fastest on one lap by miles.

For many he was and still is the standard.

Michael Schumacher included. I don't think Michael was as quick as Senna was over one lap.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 May 2024 - 17:57.

[George Costanza]

Was getting sickening even 10 years ago. It’s got to the point where Senna is being deified.

The biggest loser here is always Prost. While very different drivers, Prost was every bit as good a driver.

Prost wasn't as quick as Senna. And remember Prost was expected to beat him easily when they were partners in 1988 and 1989. And Senna certainly proved the opposite. Gordon Murray said Ayrton was more complete than Alain as a driver and I won't really argue that. Alain was better at manipulation the team around him much like Fernando is. But for pure speed, Ayrton was by far quicker.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 May 2024 - 17:56.

[PlatenGlass]

I think the deification - if we can call it that - was definitely already evident in 1993, when he was still alive and racing, even if it has picked up since then.

But one thing I've noticed other than the opinions of his driving skills is that he's now seen as this mystical and ultra-charismatic character, and that has definitely been enhanced since death.

Was he charismatic? Maybe to some extent. Primarily he could be forthright and was sometimes a bit moody and "off", so I think this is one aspect of him that has been exaggerated over time.

[Deeq]

I was thinking about this, in Sennas era it was normal pole to be second(s) faster than 3rd, hell even the sister car at 2nd place occasionally..
Today the WHOLE grid is covered by halv a second! Its bizarre & wonderful if you think about how F1 evolved.

[Collombin]

Was he charismatic? Maybe to some extent. Primarily he could be forthright and was sometimes a bit moody and "off", so I think this is one aspect of him that has been exaggerated over time.

I wonder if his charisma is exaggerated by being directly succeeded by Schumi/Hill/Hakkinen etc, none of whom would tend to go shooting their mouth off in press conferences.

Edited by Collombin, 25 May 2024 - 19:47.

[Cadence]

52 people have died in Forumla One. I understand Senna is the most famous/accomplished of those 52, but still. Very over the top imo.

[Cadence]

@ FnLn

Should've made this a poll dude!

Mark me down for "overblown" on the Senna worship.

[Nemo1965]

Prost wasn't as quick as Senna. And remember Prost was expected to beat him easily when they were partners in 1988 and 1989. And Senna certainly proved the opposite. Gordon Murray said Ayrton was more complete than Alain as a driver and I won't really argue that. Alain was better at manipulation the team around him much like Fernando is. But for pure speed, Ayrton was by far quicker.

Ah yes, the story of Prost as the master manipulator. Strange, that he was not able to manipulate Renault to reign in Arnoux in 1982. Strange he was so political he got booted out by Renault in 1983. Strange, that both Steve Nichols and Niki Lauda thought that Prost was not political at all. Strange he got booted by Ferrari for being… unpolitical (comparing the Ferrari to a truck).

What I resent most about Senna is that he has successfully manipulated the general public to believe he was the pure racing driver and Prost the politician and the cowardly schemer. In that sense, for me, indeed the deification is uncomfortable.

[milestone 11]

Ah yes, the story of Prost as the master manipulator. Strange, that he was not able to manipulate Renault to reign in Arnoux in 1982. Strange he was so political he got booted out by Renault in 1983. Strange, that both Steve Nichols and Niki Lauda thought that Prost was not political at all. Strange he got booted by Ferrari for being… unpolitical (comparing the Ferrari to a truck).

What I resent most about Senna is that he has successfully manipulated the general public to believe he was the pure racing driver and Prost the politician and the cowardly schemer. In that sense, for me, indeed the deification is uncomfortable.

Ugandan discussions brought about Prost's demise from Renault in '83, not sure about how political those discussions may have been. 

[Nemo1965]

Ugandan discussions brought about Prost's demise from Renault in '83, not sure about how political those discussions may have been.

That is exactly my point.

[DeKnyff]

I think all this Senna-mania is a bit OTT, but I still understand he is celebrated at Monaco (where he won 6 times and drove a memorable race in 1984) or in Brazil. What I really dislike are all these celebrations (don't know if this the correct word) in Imola. It's very bad taste.

[DeKnyff]

Strange he was so political he got booted out by Renault in 1983.

 

That was extremely political or non political at all, it depends how you look at it. 

[PlatenGlass]

Ugandan discussions brought about Prost's demise from Renault in '83, not sure about how political those discussions may have been. 

 

Ugandan discussions? What was this about?

[TAFormula1]

Was getting sickening even 10 years ago. It’s got to the point where Senna is being deified.

The biggest loser here is always Prost. While very different drivers, Prost was every bit as good a driver.

Prost is an all time great, but he is not every bit as good a driver as Senna, that much is clear to everyone apart from biased people.

 

He was the best in taking care of the car tho and being a great opportunist waiting for everyone to crash or have mechanical issues and racking up points in an era with many mechanical failures, he was very consistent in that, have to give him props.

[Myrvold]

 

To be from an official F1 exhibition, this one is not exactly awesome.

They include many drivers who didn't lose their life in F1. Don't include drivers who lost their life in non championship F1 races. Are missing drivers that DNQ'd for F1 WDC race(s), yet include driver(s) who never even did an F1 WDC qual, but ignore others who didn't do a single qual.

 

Weird one.

[Nemo1965]

To be from an official F1 exhibition, this one is not exactly awesome.
They include many drivers who didn't lose their life in F1. Don't include drivers who lost their life in non championship F1 races. Are missing drivers that DNQ'd for F1 WDC race(s), yet include driver(s) who never even did an F1 WDC qual, but ignore others who didn't do a single qual.

Weird one.

Drivers don’t ‘sacrifice their live to F1.’ This sentence is grammatically incorrect and on top of that, nonsense.

Edited by Nemo1965, 26 May 2024 - 11:54.

[AustinF1]

As seen on Twitter from popular F1 account ‘chain bear’

https://x.com/chainb...jNzYI1wHgQ5OZzw

I think the McLaren/Senna thing is a bit of a cynical cash grab - limited edition ‘merch drops’ and helmet/car replicas to generate some more dosh.

But 30 years on from Imola 94 is a lot of the Senna sentiment clouded by legend and distorted by the lens of worship?

I thought maybe I was the only one thinking things along these lines. Good to see I'm not alone.

[FirstnameLastname]

@ FnLn

Should've made this a poll dude!

Mark me down for "overblown" on the Senna worship.

Done. Wasn’t sure what questions to include so went with a ‘yes/no’ to the thread title (without the extra ‘the’ )

There are some countries where a glorious leader or whoever is worshipped by the population, even if they’ve been born after that persons death and never had any involvement. The senna thing could fall into the same boat - a sort of arm twisting to recognise the overblown greatness of someone.

[PayasYouRace]

Personally I see little value in having a poll for what it a nuanced topic.

[JonnyA]

Senna used his car as a weapon to deliberately crash into Prost. Should have been banned for life. It astounds me how anyone can think him great.

[Britmax]

Ugandan discussions? What was this about?

Google it, with reference to Private Eye magazine.

Edited by Britmax, 26 May 2024 - 08:11.

[The Passenger]

There is an element of deification that grates on me.

Senna-worship is a flex that says, “I’m old and/or a True F1 Fan™”.

[krea]

Senna used his car as a weapon to deliberately crash into Prost. Should have been banned for life. It astounds me how anyone can think him great.

 

somehow... it was all Prost's fault though. 

[RedRabbit]

It's gotten quite cringe and a very obvious cash grab.

It just also feels odd all these younger F1 drivers supposedly idolizing him as youngsters when even the oldest current driver would only have been 11 or 12 in 94.

[PlatenGlass]

Google it, with reference to Private Eye magazine.

Can't find anything.

[Collombin]

Can't find anything.

"It's a satirical publication's euphemism for carnal relations, m'lud"

"Oh, you mean f**king"

[cbo]

There is a lot of completely unreasonable idolization and heroworshipping going on today. The reason being, that you can milk some real, imagined or meaningless accomplishment for cash (clicks, viewers, merchandise, whatever..).

At least Senna accomplished something real and worthwhile, so I cannot really se any reason to b*tch about it being a bit over the top.

In the greater scheme of things, there are likely influencers winning fart-competitions who get more attention than Senna......

Edited by cbo, 26 May 2024 - 09:27.

[PlatenGlass]

Yeah, I didn't realise I had to leave out Prost or Renault from the search.

[F1Frog]

Drivers don’t ‘sacrifice their live to F1.’ This sentence is both grammatically incorrect and on top of that, nonsense.

 

I agree completely. 'Sacrificing your lives' suggests that they were risking their lives to help improve the world, like soldiers in a war. F1 drivers are risking their lives for nothing but their own entertainment. These drivers from the 1960s were happy to go to racetracks every weekend, knowing it might be their last, and just put that out of their minds. They often liked to present it as some kind of heroic thing like they had to do it, but you have to remember that they absolutely didn't. Jackie Stewart says that he always had a moment when leaving his house to go to Spa-Francorchamps or the Nurburgring because he thought he might never return, but in my opinion there is nothing brave about this, because you have to think about what made him go to the track anyway. It was purely a personal enjoyment of driving a car quickly and a willingness to risk your life. He could have just given up and done something else with his life but he didn't. Death isn't so bad for those who die because by the time it happens, they are not there to experience it, but it can ruin the lives of your loved ones. So driving in Formula 1 is purely a selfish act. They are definitely not 'sacrificing their lives to F1.'

 

I remember when I first got to drive a Club100 kart at Buckmore Park. I had never thought of karting as dangerous before because I was used to 30-40mph indoor karting where the worst that can happen is a bruised rib, but when I flicked through the chicane at 70mph, I suddenly realised, 'if I were to crash there, that would f**king hurt.' I was scared for the rest of the session, lifted through the fast corners and ended up two seconds outside the time I needed to get my license for the university team. In the break before the second session I thought about it properly, remembered just how much fun it would be to race in the championship and decided it was worth risking a trip to A&E. So I went flat out in the second session and got my license which I was very proud of. But afterwards, I thought about the fact that a Formula 1 driver in the 1950s and 1960s at some point would have had the very same dilemma. But in their equation, instead of a painful night at hospital followed by a full recovery, they were risking death. And yet they do it anyway, and risk ruining their families' lives. That's crazy! It is impressive that they can truly put that out of their mind and be so dedicated to something they love, but it should not be praised like it is some kind of great sacrifice to be selfish like that. I don't think that mindset is a positive thing.

 

Having said that, someone who really loved Ayrton Senna is perfectly welcome to continue to deify him if they like, just as they would if he had been their friend. It is a personal choice. But there should be no pressure to 'worship' all these racing drivers equally just because they all died in motorsport. People die every day, often in far more tragic circumstances than in a racing car.

 

For the record, I obviously love motorsport past and present and these drivers are totally welcome to do it, they should never be stopped from racing if it is what they love and I am glad that they do because I love watching, and they should definitely be praised for how skilful they are. I just think they shouldn't be praised for risking their lives.

Edited by F1Frog, 26 May 2024 - 10:48.

[Nemo1965]

I agree completely. 'Sacrificing your lives' suggests that they were risking their lives to help improve the world, like soldiers in a war. F1 drivers are risking their lives for nothing but their own entertainment. These drivers from the 1960s were happy to go to racetracks every weekend, knowing it might be their last, and just put that out of their minds. They often liked to present it as some kind of heroic thing like they had to do it, but you have to remember that they absolutely didn't. Jackie Stewart says that he always had a moment when leaving his house to go to Spa-Francorchamps or the Nurburgring because he thought he might never return, but in my opinion there is nothing brave about this, because you have to think about what made him go to the track anyway. It was purely a personal enjoyment of driving a car quickly and a willingness to risk your life. He could have just given up and done something else with his life but he didn't. Death isn't so bad for those who die because by the time it happens, they are not there to experience it, but it can ruin the lives of your loved ones. So driving in Formula 1 is purely a selfish act. They are definitely not 'sacrificing their lives to F1.'

I remember when I first got to drive a Club100 kart at Buckmore Park. I had never thought of karting as dangerous before because I was used to 30-40mph indoor karting where the worst that can happen is a bruised rib, but when I flicked through the chicane at 70mph, I suddenly realised, 'if I were to crash there, that would f**king hurt.' I was scared for the rest of the session, lifted through the fast corners and ended up two seconds outside the time I needed to get my license for the university team. In the break before the second session I thought about it properly, remembered just how much fun it would be to race in the championship and decided it was worth risking a trip to A&E. So I went flat out in the second session and got my license which I was very proud of. But afterwards, I thought about the fact that a Formula 1 driver in the 1950s and 1960s at some point would have had the very same dilemma. But in their equation, instead of a painful night at hospital followed by a full recovery, they were risking death. And yet they do it anyway, and risk ruining their families' lives. That's crazy! It is impressive that they can truly put that out of their mind and be so dedicated to something they love, but it should not be praised like it is some kind of great sacrifice to be selfish like that. I don't think that mindset is a positive thing.

Having said that, someone who really loved Ayrton Senna is perfectly welcome to continue to deify him if they like, just as they would if he had been their friend. It is a personal choice. But there should be no pressure to 'worship' all these racing drivers equally just because they all died in motorsport. People die every day, often in far more tragic circumstances than in a racing car.

For the record, I obviously love motorsport past and present and these drivers are totally welcome to do it, they should never be stopped from racing if it is what they love and I am glad that they do because I love watching, and they should definitely be praised for how skilful they are. I just think they shouldn't be praised for risking their lives.

This. But I was lazy…

[Risil]

Drivers don’t ‘sacrifice their live to F1.’ This sentence is both grammatically incorrect and on top of that, nonsense.

It's tasteless and stupid. And technically, Jim Clark "sacrificed his life" for F2, which is such an absurd notion that it sort of gives the lie to the whole premise.

[Collombin]

Well the list itself is as bizarre as the subheading. Denny Hulme is an F1 fatality but Shane Summers isn't??

I'm mildly surprised they didn't include all the Indy guys too.

[Ali_G]

Wouldn’t a retro livery like the one Rosenqvist ran at Indy last year have made more sense?

[Secretariat]

"Fallen Hero" signage: To speak broadly about the subject of deification, I am uncomfortable with the lengths that "tributes" given to dead sporting figures exist in the context of commercial enterprises. To the extent they have "paid respects" to fallen heroes is a motif very familiar to US viewers and sports; particularly NFL to which F1 is very much mirroring themselves in terms of how they market the sport. It is an unmistakably militaristic presentation to which F1Frog also makes reference to.

 

I am unaware of the location or when this "fallen heroes" motif was debuted, but given in the US it is Memorial Day weekend when the Monaco GP takes place, it is quite cynically an image thing and not a respect thing which to me is unfortunate. Especially if they are haphazardly adding to the "death count".

Edited by Secretariat, 26 May 2024 - 15:53.