339 replies to this topic

[F1Frog]

It is fascinating how if Jaguar knew that their drivers would follow any order they were given, they could have totally covered off Wehrlein and then fought themselves over the championship entirely fairly. Evans could back up Wehrlein while Cassidy takes two attack modes, then they swap and Cassidy allows Evans two attack modes, then they swap back and are allowed to race. Evans showed in the middle stint that if the lead driver doesn’t want to be overtaken and defends right then they won’t be passed in London.

This strategy would almost have guaranteed a Jaguar champion (probably Cassidy). So would just fully backing whoever was ahead going into the race. But there was no way they could have trusted Evans and Cassidy to follow all these orders.

It made me want to write an f1 frog blog analysing teams with two alphas and teams with a clear number one and two driver, when it works and when it doesn’t. Today, two alphas backfired spectacularly against Jaguar. Or maybe it didn’t, as they won the constructors’ title.

[RSRally]

Da Costa has received a 5-second penalty for the contact with Cassidy which led to a puncture for the championship protagonist. Drops him out of the points and also means that Porsche lose the manufacturers title to Jaguar. #FormulaE

https://x.com/fe_not...wZmfukLssA&s=19

[sgtkate]

Da Costa has received a 5-second penalty for the contact with Cassidy which led to a puncture for the championship protagonist. Drops him out of the points and also means that Porsche lose the manufacturers title to Jaguar. #FormulaE

https://x.com/fe_not...wZmfukLssA&s=19

Hmmmmm. That seems a little like the FIA trying to soften the blow for Jaguar. It seemed a racing incident. Tight part of the track 2 side by side, da Costa didn't actively turn into him did he? He just clipped his rear tyre causing a puncture.

I'll watch it again but I'm not convinced it was any different to about 100 other bits of contact during the race.

[juicy sushi]

Definitely a make-up call.  I don't think Porsche will care, as the WDC gets the headlines, not the WCC.

[RSRally]

It's a good thing that the front wing of the Gen3 Evo is much less sharp edged and will hopefully therefore be less likely to cause punctures.

[sgtkate]

Just bought tickets for next year

[juicy sushi]

Evans throwing the team under the bus: https://www.motorspo...st-me/10637438/

I think the Jag super team is just not viable going forward. You cannot keep these drivers onside when they know they need to establish dominance over the other to ensure team orders get applied.

Edited by juicy sushi, 21 July 2024 - 22:14.

[thegamer23]

Evans throwing the team under the bus: https://www.motorspo...st-me/10637438/

I think the Jag super team is just not viable going forward. You cannot keep these drivers onside when they know they need to establish dominance over the other to ensure team orders get applied.

Ouch, though words!

Jaguar's harmony lasted less than one season, but this had to be expected

Will we see one of them breaking contract and moving away??

.

Edited by thegamer23, 22 July 2024 - 06:50.

[deepsouth]

Jaguar fan here - how extremely predictable from Jaguar.

 

From a position of dominance to pretty much handing a rival the title.

 

They (like McLaren F1 in Hungary) needed to keep things ultra simple and ultra clear with their drivers in terms of strategy. Don't get cute.

 

Having a 1-2 in the early stages was a dream. Plan should've been in this scenario, car in P2 backs up P3 to allow P1 to take attack modes, swap and repeat. Get that all done in the first half of the race and then maybe have free reign to duel it out after that.

 

Just unreal stupidity. Da Costa punting Cassidy was amusing more than anything, just kicked out the stool after Jaguar had climbed up in the noose.

 

Credit to Wehrlein and Porsche for being clinical non-bottle-jobs but yeah. At least I saw it coming after Portland.

[sgtkate]

I find it so strange that they couldn't have discussed the multiple outcomes and the team strategy. They could easily have predicted Jags running 1&2 and how to get Evans to back up cars behind to let Cassidy take both attack modes, and then for Cassidy to let Evans through to let him take both of his, before Evans gives the place back and then they have a free fight for the title. But we see the same issue time and time again across all different motorsports so clearly it can't be that simple.

[thegamer23]

[MattK9]

Not quite sure I understand the logic? Missing a critical Attack Mode when under pressure for me isn’t any different to making a mistake in other high pressure racing scenarios.

Few years ago we saw Scott Dixon with a strong car at the Indy 500 come into the pit lane too fast for his final pit stop and get himself a penalty to take him out of contention. That’s just how it goes sometimes.

Ok I suppose it’s always fun or ideal to see things decided in wheel to wheel battles, but executing your strategy without making a mistake is a fundamental part of the sport. I don’t see how that ending up being the deciding factor is an outright negative thing.

 

I think you have answered your own question there. It is fun to see wheel to wheel battles, and its not fun to see the entire result decided by one driver missing the attack mode activation loops.

Im not saying it is unfair or unjust, but an anti-climax. Lets just say I enjoyed saturdays race much more than sundays

[Ben1445]

I think you have answered your own question there. It is fun to see wheel to wheel battles, and its not fun to see the entire result decided by one driver missing the attack mode activation loops.
Im not saying it is unfair or unjust, but an anti-climax. Lets just say I enjoyed saturdays race much more than sundays

I think I’m just hung up on saying it was ‘bad for Formula E’.

A bad outcome to me means it was unfair, unjust or otherwise makes people not want to watch anymore. Not simply something you enjoyed a little less than a hypothetical scenario.

[MattK9]

I think I’m just hung up on saying it was ‘bad for Formula E’.

A bad outcome to me means it was unfair, unjust or otherwise makes people not want to watch anymore. Not simply something you enjoyed a little less than a hypothetical scenario.

Something I enjoyed less is a bad outcome.

 

I dont think this circuit is suitable for the finale.

[Ben1445]

I dont think this circuit is suitable for the finale.

I mean yeah. To be frank I don't really think it's suitable for any round, let alone the finale. 

 

Real shame because the venue, organisation and attendance is actually top rate. 

 

Just the circuit itself is ultimately let down by the practical limitations of the site. 

[F1Frog]

I find it so strange that they couldn't have discussed the multiple outcomes and the team strategy. They could easily have predicted Jags running 1&2 and how to get Evans to back up cars behind to let Cassidy take both attack modes, and then for Cassidy to let Evans through to let him take both of his, before Evans gives the place back and then they have a free fight for the title. But we see the same issue time and time again across all different motorsports so clearly it can't be that simple.

This exactly was the best strategy. But Evans and Cassidy are never going to trust each other to do it.

[Muppetmad]

I've made my feelings on the circuit clear, but I'll say that I fully appreciate that it's great for the spectators. The little touches like the orchestra before the start were really nice. The concept is fine, but the practical realities as a racing spectacle sadly don't allow it to work.

[TMC44]

The problem for me  is value for money Formula E is poor, just one race and the gap between qualifying and the race is too long.

I noticed this was an MSVR event and that this was the last race at this awful circuit. So I would have thought Brands is in with a good shot of hosting next years race.

Even with a Brands season pass it does not do enough for me to go along and watch. 

[Clrnc]

The problem for me is value for money Formula E is poor, just one race and the gap between qualifying and the race is too long.
I noticed this was an MSVR event and that this was the last race at this awful circuit. So I would have thought Brands is in with a good shot of hosting next years race.
Even with a Brands season pass it does not do enough for me to go along and watch.

I went to a Formula E Event few years ago and already found the value poor. Not much activities to do trackside, long waiting time between qualifying and race makes it extremely boring. Food and beverage expensive and ticket prices already not the cheapest. I could even find cheaper f1 tickets.

Also obviously there are very little sounds as a spectacle too. Hope next year spectacle with the new car is much better

[Disgrace]

My hot take is that ExCel circuit is underrated and deserves more love. Since they got rid of the double hairpin section, it's been great.

 

Those two races were much infinitely better than the peloton races. Every move counted. The whole race was engaging, rather than the final five minutes.

 

I think we'll miss it if FE decide to go to somewhere like Silverstone, where the cars will be lost amidst acres of tarmac. I would happily take Brands GP, however.

[Muppetmad]

Brands Hatch would be ideal. Silverstone would be too a bit big, that's for sure. When we reach Gen4, though, who knows what style of circuit will be best for the series?

[thegamer23]

My hot take is that ExCel circuit is underrated and deserves more love. Since they got rid of the double hairpin section, it's been great.

 

Those two races were much infinitely better than the peloton races. Every move counted. The whole race was engaging, rather than the final five minutes.

 

I think we'll miss it if FE decide to go to somewhere like Silverstone, where the cars will be lost amidst acres of tarmac. I would happily take Brands GP, however.

I agree.

London's qualifying sessions were probably the best of the season, the track is super technical and you really see the drivers making the difference.

 

The races, i liked em both too. 
Bit refreshing to see a more "normal" race after lots of peleton races in Misano, Shanghai & Portland. 

There were fewer moves of course, but like disgrace said, each of them counted.

 

 

Of course it's bit too narrow and this leads to crashes, so FE will have to move on from S12 onward.

But i think it will still be OK with GEN 3 EVO (expecially with the new front wing, wich should be more robust, so less carbon around)

Edited by thegamer23, 22 July 2024 - 17:35.

[sgtkate]

The problem for me is value for money Formula E is poor, just one race and the gap between qualifying and the race is too long.
I noticed this was an MSVR event and that this was the last race at this awful circuit. So I would have thought Brands is in with a good shot of hosting next years race.
Even with a Brands season pass it does not do enough for me to go along and watch.

It's back at the ExCel in 2025 for the last year.

[SophieB]

A couple of posts removed, please don’t get personal.

[Ben1445]

Something I enjoyed less is a bad outcome.

A bad outcome for you and your enjoyment, yes, no argument there. Perfectly reasonable. Not a problem.

A bad outcome for Formula E? That’s where I disagree. I think Valencia 2021 was bad for Formula E and reflected badly on the sport. Evans missing an Attack Mode activation under pressure is just racing.

That’s the only point I’m making.

[MattK9]

TBH, Valencia race 1 was a great race. I dont think formula e was at fault. I remember watching it and thinking they are using 4% energy per lap, the leaders have 8% energy but there is 3 laps left based on the timings. I could see it, the commentary team could see it and the Merc team could see it, but no-one did. Although I accept that it did make most of the teams look completely stupid.

As for London, this is the head line from The Race: Formula E title decided by missed attack mode.

https://www.the-race...ampion-porsche/

If you go to their homepage it's a single line. Trust me, it's not a good look for Formula E that attack mode loses places when you use it that you won't win back and that missing the activation cost Evans the championship.

[Ben1445]

I guess we just massively disagree then.

[thegamer23]

Wehrlein was 3% up on energy to Evans, who was in front most of the race, so i feel he would still have won the title with a late move.

Of course it would have been a much more climatic ending, but at the end of the day it was Evans fault, missing the attack mode activation loop.

So, driver error.

Still, maybe they could make those activation loops detection bit more tolerant in the future, to avoid these kind of scenarios

[sgtkate]

TBH, Valencia race 1 was a great race. I dont think formula e was at fault. I remember watching it and thinking they are using 4% energy per lap, the leaders have 8% energy but there is 3 laps left based on the timings. I could see it, the commentary team could see it and the Merc team could see it, but no-one did. Although I accept that it did make most of the teams look completely stupid.

As for London, this is the head line from The Race: Formula E title decided by missed attack mode.

https://www.the-race...ampion-porsche/

If you go to their homepage it's a single line. Trust me, it's not a good look for Formula E that attack mode loses places when you use it that you won't win back and that missing the activation cost Evans the championship.

Evans missing the activation is on him. Formula 1 races have been decided on pit stops which is surely more of a farce as that's not even down to the driver.

Edited by sgtkate, 22 July 2024 - 20:25.

[Ben1445]

It’s not like Wehrlein won Fanboost whilst Evan’s didn’t, leaving him defenceless at the end to the whims of a much ridiculed online popularity contest.

It’s not like the championship was won because Evans was DSQ’d for some random technical infringement.

The championship was decided when Evans missed the loops under pressure.

It’s no different to me than Cassidy making his mistake at Portland.

It’s no different to Hamilton screwing up his pit entry at Shanghai in 2007.

It’s part of the damn sport.

[Ben1445]

Still, maybe they could make those activation loops detection bit more tolerant in the future, to avoid these kind of scenarios

I think if they could find a way to paint in a MotoGP-style long lap penalty lane or otherwise introduce some kind of clearer visual cue/physical barrier… it would be an improvement over a slightly vague entry and exit line.

It definitely could be made clearer to the viewers when and how drivers actually missed it.

[MattK9]

I guess we just massively disagree then.

FE is constantly criticised because of its gimmicks, and yesterday one of it's gimmicks went wrong and changed the outcome of the championship. You genuinely can't see an issue?

[Ben1445]

I think I've made my opinion on this clear. 

 

The most civil I can be is to just say that we clearly disagree and that will have to be the end of it. 

[deepsouth]

Attack mode seems inherently flawed to me. It's not used for its named purpose (to attack) anymore and instead is something the drivers have to 'get out of the way' in the least costly way they can.

It acts more like a joker lap - maybe we could live with that being introduced in some form instead? That way we still get the tactical variance it provides without any illusion that you're getting a meaningful energy advantage.

[juicy sushi]

The reason that attack mode wound up like that in Gen3 is because of two factors though: the tires and the battery.

The tires were erroneously specified by the FIA to be excessively durable, and so lack the grip required to make the extra power usable.

At the same time WAE and its suppliers delivered a battery that does not have the durability and capacity promised, meaning the extreme levels of energy saving needed to finish a race negate the ability to use the extra power. You can’t generally afford the overconsumption.

The Gen3 Evo will address the first problem, but we’re stuck with these batteries until Gen4. Hopefully most of the problem will be solved by the extra traction of the Evo.

[Muppetmad]

Just thinking out loud, at what point does FE bite the bullet and allow/actively encourage one of China's big electric vehicle/battery producers – specifically BYD, CATL or Nio – to supply the battery for the series? They are ultimately on the cutting edge of battery technology right now. I know the Gen4 supplier has already been secured, but I wonder what the market dynamics will be like by the time we get to Gen5.

[juicy sushi]

I mean, they are open tenders and the Chinese companies hadn’t been interested. If one bids, I’m sure they’d be considered.

[sgtkate]

FE is constantly criticised because of its gimmicks, and yesterday one of it's gimmicks went wrong and changed the outcome of the championship. You genuinely can't see an issue?

Formula 1 is criticised for the lack of over takes on track so brings in enforced pit stops to try to spice up otherwise dull processions and often pit stops change the outcome of a championship. You genuinely can't see an issue?

 

Look, we don't all have to like the same things, and if FE isn't for you, that's fine, but to try to make out it's some failure because a top driver failed to correctly position his car and it potentially cost him the WDC (I still think Werhlein would have controlled the race like he had since he got to the front anyway) I think it unfair and, frankly, incorrect. Would you say an F1 driver who put a tyre onto the paint when wet and spun off was some failure of the race because of the tyre gimmicks FOM likes to pull? I'd hope not, I'd hope you'd see it as part of the race and to blame the driver for the mistake. Little difference here.

[Ben1445]

At the same time WAE and its suppliers delivered a battery…

Rather confusingly for all of us, Fortescue bought WAE in 2022 and renamed it first to ‘Fortescue WAE’ and then as of May this year rebranded to ‘Fortescue Zero’.

Strikes me as a mildly odd choice, but here we are…

[MattK9]

Formula 1 is criticised for the lack of over takes on track so brings in enforced pit stops to try to spice up otherwise dull processions and often pit stops change the outcome of a championship. You genuinely can't see an issue?

 

Look, we don't all have to like the same things, and if FE isn't for you, that's fine, but to try to make out it's some failure because a top driver failed to correctly position his car and it potentially cost him the WDC (I still think Werhlein would have controlled the race like he had since he got to the front anyway) I think it unfair and, frankly, incorrect. Would you say an F1 driver who put a tyre onto the paint when wet and spun off was some failure of the race because of the tyre gimmicks FOM likes to pull? I'd hope not, I'd hope you'd see it as part of the race and to blame the driver for the mistake. Little difference here.

 

We arent talking about F1. Comments on F1 or FOM are not relevant. 

 

Your comments on just clipping a white line in the wet being similar just missing the attack mode activation are completely fair. And I dont disagree.

Although I cant actually see how Evans missed it. It seems like it is the first part of the activation he misses.

https://x.com/MrMatt...7024321/video/1

 

Also I didnt say this was a failure on part of Formula E. It is just a bad outcome for Formula E. It gives the impression that the title was lost by Evans and not won by Wehrlein