39 replies to this topic

[Porsche718]

Double Eight in road form. Yes, the wheels were undrilled at this time, while nice touches like some finishing-off, the grille and louvres on the sides are there.

...in its early life. The information I had was that the wheels were drilled when he converted it to a single-seater, though this photo seems to make that an unclear suggestion...


Unfinished. No grille in this form, at Woodside* in October, 1949, the car had raced there also at the December 27 meeting of 1948. Are the extra holes in the wheels here? The car behind it is the Davison TC Special.

...and this one certainly puts it into the 'more than questionable' category:


1950 Australian Grand Prix. The lightening holes in the wheels are certainly evident here, as also is yet another form of grille on the front, Harry Neale driving.

So why am I so interested in the holes in the wheels?

The first pics I ever looked at in detail of the Eldred Norman Double Eight (that was the family's name for the car) were when I was tasked with laying out Terry Walker's Around the Houses book in 1979. This picture really brought it graphically to me that the wheels had those extra holes in them:


Single-seater. Syd Anderson, stuck with a flat tyre in the Double Eight during a race in WA.

I hadn't see the Norman "Double" in this state of build before!

Glen Ewin Hillclimb 1950

[MarkBisset]

Cheers Steve,

 

Wasn’t it a car in a constant state of development, I’ve not seen your final shot before either.

I’ll dig my favourites up later on, the Double Eight deserves its own thread really, or is there one? 
 

m

[Ray Bell]

Steve's Glen Ewin jam factory photo explains the strange-looking additions to the side of the nose in the Woodside pic.

 

Yes, Mark, a wonderful subject for a thread.

[Porsche718]

I'm not even sure if anyone knows the correct name for this Australian "beast", but I thought it was worthy of its own thread.

 

Perhaps a list of the various mechanical bits and pieces would be a good start.

 

How many different parts, from different makes were used?

 

 

[Ray Bell]

A wonderful car...

 

Its genesis was in a previous car built in Clare in the late 1930s by Max Bryant, this having raced at Buckland Park Beach driven by Peter Hawker. Powered by two Essex engines, it fired the imagination of the young university student who drove around in a Bentley. Each of those engines had a single-row sprocket affixed to the crankshaft, one having it at the front, the other at the rear. A double-row chain over those sprockets joined them together.

 

When the war ended, Eldred became involved in many expeditions aimed at taking advantage of the vast quantities of trucks, jeeps and other equipment no longer required by defending armies and among the booty he acquired for himself were Ford V8 engines and a Dodge Weapons Carrier. These would become the major components of the car the family knew as the Double Eight.

 

The engines were timed as a V16 with a Scintilla magneto providing the ignition. It had independent suspension on all four wheels, the Dodge wheels which were drilled for lightness at some time. Alloy brake drums were created to help dissipate heat, but taking things a step further Eldred had a water tank on board and two Toronto electric fuel pumps squirted water on these when activated by the brake-light switch. It went into corners in a cloud of steam which could almost be described as a deliberate ploy to disturb the concentration of following drivers.

 

Hydraulic links for the steering, which had to get around both engines to a steering box somewhere up the front, were discussed but the idea abandoned when Harry Neale said he wouldn't drive it with that. Harry sometimes raced the car.

[Porsche718]

A wonderful car...

 

but taking things a step further Eldred had a water tank on board and two Toronto electric fuel pumps squirted water on these when activated by the brake-light switch. It went into corners in a cloud of steam which could almost be described as a deliberate ploy to disturb the concentration of following drivers.

 

 

Sounds a bit like the truck racing of later years with steam emanating from the front guards under heavy braking.

 

to a steering box somewhere up the front

 

Ray, that comment is gold!!!

[MarkBisset]

Steve,

 

Thanks for setting up the special thread, Eldred didn't know what to call it either. He entered it as 'Twin Mercury' at Woodside in 1948, 'Ford Mercury Special' there in 1950 and plain 'ole 'Ford Special' in 1951. No wonder we enthusiast/historians are confused... 

 

Over the last five years or so a lot of photographs of the Double Eight (thaddl' do me) have appeared on Facebook which helps in the evolution of the beast visually, but the mechanical changes Eldred, and later Syd Anderson, Toby Carboni (spelling) and others are undocumented or not well documented. A shame for one of our most significant specials.

 

 

I managed to flog an article about the Double Eight to The Automobile a couple of years ago and I think the two shots here were the clinchers. This first one - from John Medley's archive - shows Eldred and an unsuspecting victim in the then new car in Adelaide's CBD in 1948. His workshop was in Halifax Street so perhaps it's somewhere there. Any clues Lynton or other South Aussie?

 

 

The other incredible shot shows the extraordinary rear-set driving position of the car in its original form. The uncredited shot was posted on Flickr several years ago. The pilot is South Australian speedcar speedway star Harry Neale (Google him) on his road racing debut! aboard Double Eight during the December 27, 1948 Woodside meeting. Woodside was 2.99 miles long, it's in the Adelaide Hills 35km from the city.

 

Harry would have been well aware how the rear of the car was behaving, what was going on up forward may have been another matter!

 

Let the photos roll folks...

Edited by MarkBisset, 27 July 2024 - 06:22.

[Porsche718]

I notice that's the third SA registration number the car seems to have had.

 

SA - 1470

?-206

the most recent appears to be SA - 240-14?

[MarkBisset]

Yes Steve, early days the rego seems to have been 240-141, and he was famous for driving around Adelaide with the plate dangling from string around his neck.

 

Two shots at Glen McEwin Hillclimb supposedly in April - the cars first competition outing - and August 1948. Original Biposto, LHD format.

 

 

and: 

 

 

 

The ‘O’Hara’ thing is some ‘Gone with The Wind’ pisstake…

 

Let's - Maybach style - call this Double Eight 1

 

.Dodge VC or WC Series weapons carrier based chassis with some tubular elements

.Biposto

.LHD

 

Photo credits Norman Family Collection

Edited by MarkBisset, 27 July 2024 - 21:41.

[Ray Bell]

The number of variations of bodywork and even mechanical makeup are amazing...
 
Let's hope we can get pics of all up on this thread.
 
This is the final form as raced by Eldred in the Australian Grand Prix of 1951 at Narrogin, WA:
 

 
Though driven there by Syd Anderson, it's as raced by Eldred. The air scoops at the rear are to feed the radiator for the second engine, the leading engine being cooled by a radiator in the front. And here it is as a 2-seater in the 1950 AGP at Nuriootpa:
 

 
I would imagine the conversation in which Steve Tillett suggested the hydraulic linkages for the steering would have been during the changeover to RHD.
 
Just where this one fits into the lineage is hard to tell:
 

 
It's RHD and looks much more finished than the pic above, but has undrilled wheels.

[MarkBisset]

 

 

Double Eight 2

 

Over the summer of 1948-49 Eldred (and crew, who?) were busy on a major rebuild of the Double Eight

 

By April The Mail - in the lead up to a Nuriootpa meeting - reported that 'Two V8 engines are retained in Eldred Norman's rebuilt Ford-Mercury Special, which was previously used in hillclimbs. The machine is now lower slung and less bulky.'

 

In October 1949 The Argus reported in the lead up to Eldred's appearance at Fishermans Bend on October 29 that 'The tubular steel chassis has two Ford Mercury engines...'

 

 

DE is still Biposto but is now RHD and the driver is sitting forward of the rear axle rather than on, or just aft of it. I wonder if the DE 1 chassis was modified to create DE 2 or cast aside and a new one built?

 

Who built the bodies of both variants. I've never read what gearbox Eldred used?

 

 

 

Rather than carpet-bomb you all with shots I've just chosen a couple which show 'Double Eight 2' - frustratingly, despite looking hard over the years, there are very few body-off shots.

 

The photo above was taken by John Montasell at Rob Roy on November 1 1949. Eldred did back-to-back meetings in Melbourne in the Christmas Hills and at Fishermans Bend on October 29, Melbourne Cup weekend perhaps.

 

The rear shot below is at Fishos that weekend, the beast appears to have used #6 at both events.

 

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The State Library of South Australia shot below is at Woodside during the October 10, 1949 weekend.

 

That's Doug Whiteford's #1 Black Bess at left

 

 

 

The SLSA have this as Woodside 1950, but it may have been 1949, Double Eight 2 competed in both years

 

[url=https://postimg.cc/PvfN5XK3]

 

 

The Australian Motor Sports June 1950 cover shot above is of Harry Neale in ‘The Double V8;Ford’ at Sellicks Beach over Easter - April 10 - 1950. The News reported that 'Trying to make up a huge handicap in the 16-mile race...the 200hp V16 Special...hit the incoming tide at 120mph. The car threw water to a height of 20ft and the steel bodywork was torn like paper, Neale, drenched but unhurt, had to retire from the race.'

Edited by MarkBisset, 30 July 2024 - 00:34.

[Ray Bell]

You're right, Mark, and there are anomolies...

 

What gearbox? I would suggest a truck gearbox, which leads us to the Dodge Weapons Carrier, the torque of it would have required something lumpy while it would also have reduced the need for close or multiple ratios. Then there's mention of a 'tubular steel chassis' while everything I've ever been told has been about the Dodge chassis.

 

I'm also wondering about the rear suspension, with a leaning towards a de Dion-type as every pic seems to show the rear wheels vertical.

 

Eldred is gone, so is Steve Tillett and no doubt Harry Neale too. Mike might have a clue, also Bill, but I doubt that Bill ever saw the car much less inspected the rear end. There is room for trailing arms under the bodywork, there appears to be a transverse leaf spring in the Nurioopta pic but it's not there in the Syd Anderson pic. Syd had a son named Ross, he might have taken an interest, also Rod Waller might have looked the car over.

[Lee Nicolle]

I knew I had read somewhere about Harry Neale roadracing and now I remember. My father knew both Eldred Norman and Harry Neale.

There is pics of Harry testing his midget in our bottom paddock which was ,,, well a ploughed paddock. This mid 50s somewhere. I cannot remember it but I was a baby at the time! Ten years or so later we did have a graded oval in what was a reclaimed swamp. And the track did grow a little with more fill. It is now a park.

I very vaguely remember going to a old workshop in the city that had a collection of weird and wonderfull cars and other items. I was about 3 or 4. Eldred Norman I feel. I do know his family had money and lived quite well. How much of that  went into buying military surplus I have no idea. From all accounts a little eccentric but evidently quite smart. Probably why he has not been forgotten 60-70 years on.

In those days the city centre had a few motorsport business's.  Alec Rowe who built many speedcars and well known for OHV A model Ford engines, Len Bowes with speedway sidecars and a general repair shop, Southcott engineering who were an engine shop and another spring shop down the street. Different branches of the same family. Southcotts had a lot to do with the Dunstall rotary valve grey Holden heads. They were the agents. A bit later John Moyle of speedway Supermodified fame [73 Aussie Champ] worked there. Workshop foreman I believe.

There was others as well. Some far later and some earlier.

There is/was the second Veskanda living in the city as well.

[Lee Nicolle]

You're right, Mark, and there are anomolies...

 

What gearbox? I would suggest a truck gearbox, which leads us to the Dodge Weapons Carrier, the torque of it would have required something lumpy while it would also have reduced the need for close or multiple ratios. Then there's mention of a 'tubular steel chassis' while everything I've ever been told has been about the Dodge chassis.

 

I'm also wondering about the rear suspension, with a leaning towards a de Dion-type as every pic seems to show the rear wheels vertical.

 

Eldred is gone, so is Steve Tillett and no doubt Harry Neale too. Mike might have a clue, also Bill, but I doubt that Bill ever saw the car much less inspected the rear end. There is room for trailing arms under the bodywork, there appears to be a transverse leaf spring in the Nurioopta pic but it's not there in the Syd Anderson pic. Syd had a son named Ross, he might have taken an interest, also Rod Waller might have looked the car over.

I have got the impression that car was really about 3 differnet cars, it got more civilised and lighter over the years. The initial car was agricultural, at the end far sleeker and lighter. Though still a lot of military truck parts as I guess he had them so used what he owned.

[MarkBisset]

Eldred from the Australian Dictionary of Biography: https://adb.anu.edu....e-bracton-11253

 

 

Harry Neale from the Australian Speedway Hall of Fame: https://www.speedway...l-s/harry-neale

Edited by MarkBisset, 28 July 2024 - 06:50.

[Ray Bell]

The use of the sub-machine gun at Collingrove wasn't to dig the post-holes...

 

It was to tamp down the soil in the holes when the posts were put in place.

 

His supercharger venture had its roots in the need to make one to fit to the TR2 in 1954, starting with a semi-complete truck supercharger.

 

The first Garrie Cooper racing creation was the Cooper-Butler, which was built on one of the five or six Morris 8 van rolling chassis Eldred bought from Motors Ltd. The alloy bodies for the cars Eldred completed were built by Snow Young, so he might well have been the creator of one or more of the bodies used on the Double Eight.

 

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle

.....I do know his family had money and lived quite well. How much of that  went into buying military surplus I have no idea.....

 

I understand that all of his trips to acquire war-surplus vehicles and materials were at least largely funded by others. Ron Mann partnered him in one expedition to New Guinea, when they chartered a 7,000-ton ship to carry about 55 jeeps, 40 assorted trucks, various generating and welding plants and piles of tyres and drums of fuel. They (or just Ron?) were nervous about the saleability of all those Jeeps as everyone was shipping them to Australia (as well as buying the large number available within the country) and sold them as a job lot. Bill Hayes was a partner in one or more of expeditions to buy trucks in Darwin.

[Tim Murray]

Lots of info on Eldred Norman and the Double Eight in this earlier thread:

Draft Eldred Norman anecdote

[MarkBisset]

Cheers Tim,

 

Mr Harvey should have printed 100 or so, there would have been no shortage of takers. The things I am intrigued to know are more mechanical details on DE 1, DE 2, DE 3 and DE 4 inclusive of what bits were used from a previous evolution of the one that went before. 

 

Double Eight 3, a far more attractive, purposeful monoposto was created over the summer of 1949-50, using, seemingly the key components of DE 1 and DE 2: two ford Mercury V8s and gearbox assy, and the front and rear ends wheel to wheel.

 

I'm not sure when it first raced, perhaps at Sellicks/Aldinga beaches as here, date unknown. The photo below (credit Don Cant Collection) shows Harry Neale dicing with the Cant and Tillet MG TC Spls. 

 

 

 

The shots below are of Eldred Norman during his trip to Narrogin, Western Australia in March 1951 to contest the AGP. He won his heat, and, predictably the car retired while leading the race on lap seven of 24.

But he did bag FTD at Mundaring, the WA Hillclimb Championship and won the unlimited scratch race at Molliabeenee, where these two shots were taken. Photo credits Ken Devine Collection. 
 

 

 

 

The other car in both shots is Dick Bland's Delahaye 135CS - AGP winner in John Crouch's hands in 1949 - no doubt Ray will find DE 3's 'Minilites' particularly alluring.

Edited by MarkBisset, 30 July 2024 - 00:09.

[Ray Bell]

Indeed, noting the way the triangular cutouts near the rims have grown so dramatically...

 

We're a long way from knowing enough about this car. The front suspension is in question, we have no idea what type of suspension was used. I think the rear view of the car turning towards the best part of Woodside might go a long way to confirming that it's rear end is a de Dion type.

 

I had a bit of a look through the 1950 and 1951 AMS binders today and found none, but is it possible there was an Australian Specials feature on the car in that magazine? And what about the Australia's Fastest Cars magazines, I'm sure it featured in them. They might be the best chance of learning more about the technical features.

 

Mark, I mentioned the body builder Eldred employed just a few years later, Snow Young, as being a likely candidate for the bodywork on this car/these cars. And in the other thread there is mention (in those images posted by Kevin Drage) of people who worked with Eldred at some time or another.

 

Something else comes up as a result of these pics... apart from the change of location of the steering box, the scoops showing on the car in Anderson's ownership wasn't there when Eldred had the car. Bronnie did tell me it had the radiator for the rear engine in the back of the car, so it must have been relying on the air going past the driver's body to get some cooling. The rear view of the car as driven by Anderson at Narrogin in 1953 would be quite educational if we could get a higher resolution version of it than we see in Around the Houses, Ken Devine probably has that shot.

 

Maybe some old WASCC or SCCofSA newsletters or magazines would divulge details too?

[Porsche718]

Just reading an article where Bill Norman states that his Dad called the car originally the "Double Banger", then the "Double Bunger" (for those who still remember "cracker-night".

[Dick Willis]

Indeed, noting the way the triangular cutouts near the rims have grown so dramatically...

 

We're a long way from knowing enough about this car. The front suspension is in question, we have no idea what type of suspension was used. I think the rear view of the car turning towards the best part of Woodside might go a long way to confirming that it's rear end is a de Dion type.

 

I had a bit of a look through the 1950 and 1951 AMS binders today and found none, but is it possible there was an Australian Specials feature on the car in that magazine? And what about the Australia's Fastest Cars magazines, I'm sure it featured in them. They might be the best chance of learning more about the technical features.

 

Mark, I mentioned the body builder Eldred employed just a few years later, Snow Young, as being a likely candidate for the bodywork on this car/these cars. And in the other thread there is mention (in those images posted by Kevin Drage) of people who worked with Eldred at some time or another.

 

Something else comes up as a result of these pics... apart from the change of location of the steering box, the scoops showing on the car in Anderson's ownership wasn't there when Eldred had the car. Bronnie did tell me it had the radiator for the rear engine in the back of the car, so it must have been relying on the air going past the driver's body to get some cooling. The rear view of the car as driven by Anderson at Narrogin in 1953 would be quite educational if we could get a higher resolution version of it than we see in Around the Houses, Ken Devine probably has that shot.

 

Maybe some old WASCC or SCCofSA newsletters or magazines would divulge details too?

Ray, to quote from the Motor Manual year book no 3, I think ; 'Independent front suspension with wishbones and coil springs, independent rear suspension with leading arms and torsion bars"  Hope this helps.

[Porsche718]

Ray, to quote from the Motor Manual year book no 3, I think ; 'Independent front suspension with wishbones and coil springs, independent rear suspension with leading arms and torsion bars"  Hope this helps.

 

 

Dick, I've heard a couple of quotes from Bill Norman where he says the car "eventually had" independent suspension (although he wasn't specific as to whether he was referring to front or rear),

 

If it was some form of independent right from the start (in 1948), it would be a very rudimentary system where one would expect to see interesting camber variations during cornering.

 

But I, like Ray, noticed that both front and rear camber angles always seem consistent to each other during the years the car was evolving.

 

Eldred Norman had newspaper column at one stage, and in one edition he talks of suspension developments. Although he doesn;t specifically mention the "Double", he speaks enthusiastically about the De Dion system of rear axle location.

 

 

This shot certainly could interpreted as being either solid front axle or split pivot axle (as in Lotus 11).

 

Not that it is any kind of accurate guide, but the recreation car that was at Historic Winton had solid front axle.

 

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

 

Steve W

[MarkBisset]

​

 

Apropos independent suspension...

 

Whiteford's Black Bess ahead of Harry Neale in Double Eight 2 at Woodside in 1949. Photo credit coming up when I can find it.

 

Two top rear links are clear in the shot, and what appears to be a drop-link on the left. At the front, who knows. 

 

 

 

Edited by MarkBisset, 02 August 2024 - 23:41.

[Ray Bell]

Just one picture showing the rear view of the car as in this shot...
 

 
...would answer so many questions!
 
From that we could probably deduce the type of differential, details of the rear suspension and more. But we don't have one. The pic is noted as being at Glen Ewin in 1950 and from AMS there is a note that the independent rear suspension was fitted before Woodside in 1949 and from it we can see that the rear of the chassis is made of square steel tubing and I suspect that there's a transverse leaf spring taking the weight at the rear. And providing good traction, the Mundaring hillclimb report states that "The big machine left the line like a rocket leaving large quantities of rubber dust everywhere..."
 
Another AMS photo caption tells us that the car's monoposto body was new for Mundaring, Mooliabeenie and Narrogin in 1951, so the pic on Sellicks Beach of it in monoposto form must have been just before these events. Here's a pic from that AMS report:
 

Norman at Narrogin. In monoposto form, but still obviously fitted with a beam axle at the front.
 
The location and springing of that front axle is very much unsure in my mind.It is possible there is a coil spring in there, but there are no apparent radius arms to locate the axle. What I would like to do is put to bed the idea that it had 4-wheel independent suspension. The only way it could retain that Dodge truck front axle throughout its life - as shown in every photo - and have an independent front end would be if it had a swing-axle arrangement with the axle cut in half. But there are no photos indicating the kind of camber change that would produce.
 
Did it have very short semi-elliptic springs? Leading or trailing arms unseen within the bodywork? The one clue is in his retirement from the AGP at Narrogin: '...a front axle locating rod came adrift,' reports AMS.
 
We're languishing here for lack of information. What resources were available to Darren Visser when he launched himself into building the replica? Does anyone have contact with him so we can learn more?

[Lee Nicolle]

​

 

Apropos independent suspension...

 

Whiteford's Black Bess ahead of Harry Neale in Double Eight 2 at Woodside in 1949. Photo credit coming up when I can find it.

 

Two top rear links are clear in the shot, and what appears to be a drop-link on the left. At the front, who knows. 

 

 

 

It is a severely dropped beam axle. I blew the pic up and it is clear. The only type of independent it could be is a dual beam axle like and F100 which would be worse than the beam. The Narrogin pic shows it better. probably Transverse leaf. Rear? Do I see a fairly flat transverse there as well. Look at the Narrogin pic.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 04 August 2024 - 05:03.

[Ray Bell]

Any ideas on how the beam axle could have been located, Lee?

 

There's not enough room, practically, for leaf springs in the conventional manner. And it was said that a locating rod came adrift at Narrogin. I also believe it's a transverse leaf spring at the rear, with a link to the hub-carrier area.

[Lee Nicolle]

Any ideas on how the beam axle could have been located, Lee?

 

There's not enough room, practically, for leaf springs in the conventional manner. And it was said that a locating rod came adrift at Narrogin. I also believe it's a transverse leaf spring at the rear, with a link to the hub-carrier area.

Usual way is  3 or 4 arms from the chassis to the axle. Seemingly under the body work. 

I have seen most with 4 link which bind easily. My Supermodified had 4 and Mark Peacock [Sascar] summed it up as a 2" steam pipe sway bar!! The top links are gone now and the suspension works quite well. As does the rear set up similar but using parralel Morris Minor torsion bars as the car was built.

The rear originally was hairpin on the r/r and an arm from thecentre of the diff tube to the chassis. You bounced it and watched the wheelbase get longer on the left,,, oops. And that is the way it raced from 68 to 80 in period.

Actually quite similar to what I had on my Sports Sedan though the top arm came from the top of the diff housing. It went forward well and had a LOT of articulation to roll.

[MarkBisset]

 

Toby Carbone aboard Double Eight 3 at Caversham in 1956.

The poor old beast has been comprehensively fuglified, probably in the ongoing quest to keep the flatty-Fords water temps under control by fitment of a larger radiator(s) (Ken Devine Archive)

 

My OCD side kicks in occasionally, so for the sake of completeness - not that we have even gotten close to a useful photo of the car in the nuddy, and therefore answers to questions about aspects of the cars specifications - the evolution of Double Eight 3 to Double Eight 4 or more correctly 'Single Twelve 1' goes something like this.

 

Perth dealer/repairer/racer Syd Anderson bought DE3 from Eldred Norman after the '51 AGP. He raced it successfully in WA, SA? and Malaya before handing the car over to Toby/Tobi Carbone/Carboni about the time Syd bought his Alta.

Carbone a was talented mechanic employed by Anderson, who raced the car and occasionally used it as roadie, Norman would have approved of that bigtime.

 

Perth enthusiast and historian Ken Devine picks up the story. Both Ray and I got in touch with him a week ago to see if Carbone was still with us, he isn't: 

 

'Hi Mark. I didn't know the (Carbone) family i just got confirmation of his death by a person who also new him.

 

I don't think there would be any photos of the alterations to the car as the Anderson family gave me some and they don't have any others. The one i sent you from 1956 with the wide nose would be the final form. It last raced in 1957 and was later sold to Jim Harwood who was a performance car dealer. a toss of a coin decided the price.

 

The engines were sold and went into speedboats, after that the car sat on the verge outside Jim's car yard in Northbridge until the council made him move it.

 

The car moved onto a Keith Windsor who cut it down and fitted a Lincoln V12 engine (lets call that form Double Eight 4) in that form it appeared in 1959.  the car competed in a couple of races and went quite well and after that it was never seen again. It is said that the original body was dumped into the (Swan) river east of Fremantle called Blackwall Reach which was then a popular dumping ground.  Over the years it's been hard to find anyone who knows of the car's demise. Sorry i can't help you any further. Ken.'

 

 

Carbone, again at Caversham, with a posse of helpers attempting to kick 16-cylinders into life. With looks then that only a mother could love, it's still such a marvellous device! (Ken Devine Archive) 

Edited by MarkBisset, 09 August 2024 - 23:50.

[Kendevine]

A correction to Mark's story. Syd retired the double after buying an Austin Healey in 1954 this car was also regular transport, It ran in both Sports and racing car events and it could beat most specials of the day. Tobi  took over the double at that time and in  the Northam  Flying 50 in 1955 Tobi and Syd actually collided and finished up in a paddock at the side of the track.. The conversation after would have been interesting.

[Kendevine]

I located my copy of Australia's Fastest Cars by Motor Manuel 1956. The car is described as the Bi Mercury and owned by Tobi Carbone. There's no details just that it was successful in Carbone's hands and the photo showed the MK2 , 2 seater version

[Ray Bell]

That looks like some kind of radius arm under the left bank of the first engine...

 

I'm now thinking I'm getting a kind of inkling of how Eldred did the front end.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Dick Willis
Ray, to quote from the Motor Manual year book no 3, I think ; 'Independent front suspension with wishbones and coil springs, independent rear suspension with leading arms and torsion bars" Hope this helps.

I've now got, thanks to Ken (arrived yesterday, thanks a lot), Yearbook No 6 in this series. The description is worded differently but says almost the same thing. "Independent front suspension by coil springs and wishbones. Rear also independent, with swing half-axles and torsion bars."

 

Photos, of course, show both of these to be incorrect.

 

The pursuit must go on if we're to get the proper detail.

[Lee Nicolle]

Like many race cars was it the same every meeting or did things change that often

[Ray Bell]

Frequent change while in the hands of Eldred Norman...

 

One rebuild with, I would think, very few changes (though some chassis tubes are mentioned) in Syd Anderson's hands.

 

It's obvious from the photos above that Tobi Carboni made some changes, at least around the nose, while later it had an engine change to the V12 Lincoln Zephyr flathead.

[Repco22]

Ray, re people who might know about suspension layout;

    As mentioned, Syd Anderson's nephew lived with Syd's family. His name is Rob Tippett and I talked with him some time ago.

My understanding is that he's older than Syd's son Ross, so would be more likely to recall details about the car. 

Occasionally Rob would borrow Syd's spare [fawn] Healey and drive it to high school, parking it next to the head master's humble sedan.

I think that Ross would have been a small boy at this stage.  Unfortunately the phone number I have for Rob is no longer connected.

Edited by Repco22, 04 September 2024 - 01:18.

[Kendevine]

Rod the last person i knew with a possible connection to the car was Vince Carboni and unfortunately he died last week after a long illness. Tobi died last year. I think Ross Anderson was about 12 in 1957 i recall seeing him with the family at Albany. I had contact with the daughter recently talking about Syd's various cars.

[Ray Bell]

Some body-off photos would be just wonderful...

 

And these are the pics that family etc would be unlikely to think we'd like to see.

[gbader]

sorry if "old news", but evidently a replica hitting the tracks now, looks pretty good (popped up in "Speedsters Downunder" FB group)

 

Text from the Post
 

Spotted at the Rob Roy hill climb yesterday.

A recent and faithful recreation of the Australian Eldred Norman V16 (twin ford mercury) by Darren Vissor. Built upon a weapons carrier chassis.

 

Edited by gbader, 09 September 2024 - 03:54.

[Ray Bell]

It's a pretty daunting thing for someone to build, all right...

 

Yes, we were aware of it and it's mentioned earlier in the thread. We're hoping to learn what Darren knows about the original that perhaps we don't.

[Kendevine]

The recreation is a great effort but those wheels are out of proportion to the original car. Also what suspension layout did the builder use.