1028 replies to this topic

[Nicktendo86]

The statement from the fia specifically says it is about the size of the opening under load and how much it is allowed to vary so I do t think that’s right jonklug.

Edited by Nicktendo86, 17 March 2025 - 21:58.

[jonklug]

Nicktendo86, on 17 Mar 2025 - 21:57, said:

The statement from the fia specifically says it is about the size of the opening under load and how much it is allowed to vary so I do t think that’s right jonklug.

 

That was my initial understanding as well but then I found the wording confusing when revisiting it. Especially after noticing the yellow marked gap on the image. 

[Nicktendo86]

jonklug, on 17 Mar 2025 - 22:01, said:

That was my initial understanding as well but then I found the wording confusing when revisiting it. Especially after noticing the yellow marked gap on the image.

I think they’re being lazy with using that image tbh

[vlado]

Ok so Wache call after Bahrain was correct

[pup]

Well, if it’s Red Bull who are complaining, and we’ve seen videos of Mercedes and McLaren which show no evidence of any mini DRS action, then there’s really only one team of interest left.

Maybe the reason the Italian press are so quick to report on these things is because it’s an Italian team the FIA are investigating.

[jonklug]

pup, on 18 Mar 2025 - 02:03, said:

Well, if it’s Red Bull who are complaining, and we’ve seen videos of Mercedes and McLaren which show no evidence of any mini DRS action, then there’s really only one team of interest left.

Maybe the reason the Italian press are so quick to report on these things is because it’s an Italian team the FIA are investigating.

 

Yea but since we're talking about millimeters, it might also be a case of this not being as easily noticeable to the naked eye as was the case in Baku last year. So of course I don't think whoever is using this is gaining A LOT of time from it but still gaining something. 

[Chillimeister]

pup, on 18 Mar 2025 - 02:03, said:

Well, if it’s Red Bull who are complaining, and we’ve seen videos of Mercedes and McLaren which show no evidence of any mini DRS action, then there’s really only one team of interest left.

Maybe the reason the Italian press are so quick to report on these things is because it’s an Italian team the FIA are investigating.

 

On the other hand, Ferrari were so off the pace in Australia that if it is them they really aren't making a good job of it ... much more likely to be the cars at the front. And if it isn't Red Bull, McLaren is the obvious candidate, Mercedes weren't that quick either.

[jonklug]

A very interesting X post on this topic by @AeroTechVH

 

Quote

 

The flexy wing topic is at full swing for a long time now in F1 and it doesn't look like it's going away soon - because the FIA test changes in China are about the slot gaps and not trailing edge movements.

 

The latest footage from Australian GP has shown McLaren rear wings flexing significantly under high aero loads and quite comparable to previous controversial cases (RB16B in 2021 and MCL38 in 2024, but also W16 in Bahrain test 2025). Rear wing flaps were aligned between themselves as 2021 cars had flap span of 950mm and cars today have a span of 960mm, 1% difference in span is well within margin of error.

 

From my estimates, the trailing edge flexing seen in all these examples is over 20mm and could be as much as 25mm in some cases. According to TD034, expanded in 2021 due to flexing controversies between Red Bull and Mercedes, it's not legal to have designs "whose structural characteristics are altered by secondary parameters, so as to produce (whilst running at the track) a different deflection characteristic than when stationary during the FIA checks. Examples of secondary parameters could be temperature, aerodynamic load etc"

 

Let me be absolutely clear - the DRS flap leading edge is not moving at all as far as I can tell, and this is not exactly the same thing as mini-DRS of last year.

 

However, the bulk of drag shedding on straights comes from rear wing twist around the pylon attachment point and the twist of entire upper flap segment around its own attachment points. In case of MCL39 in Australia, these features remain present. What's more, the flexing seen now seems to be higher than what we saw in Bahrain testing - suggesting McLaren used different composite layup on wings used in Australia.

 

Edited by jonklug, 18 March 2025 - 09:05.

[Eyeshield]

It would be nice to see some proof and comparison shots to back up some of these claims.

[Rabbit]

Seems Macca has all the good ideas and engineers. Thanks Red Bull 😭😂

[jonklug]

Rabbit, on 18 Mar 2025 - 09:14, said:

Seems Macca has all the good ideas and engineers. Thanks Red Bull

 

Well tbh this happened to Mercedes as well and it will happen to McLaren as well. Because of the cost cap you will eventually start getting key staff poached away as they receive higher offers elsewhere. 

[Nobody]

S3 at Albert Park is where the McLaren was pulling 3, 4 tenths on the competition and 'saving' it's tyres, all this looks a red herring to me

[jonklug]

Nobody, on 18 Mar 2025 - 09:58, said:

S3 at Albert Park is where the McLaren was pulling 3, 4 tenths on the competition and 'saving' it's tyres, all this looks a red herring to me

 

Well yes because they were able to use a high DF setup without losing too much speed on the straights because of this RW trick. So they had the best of both worlds, competitive high speed + high DF and good balance that made the car easy on the tires and the king of S3.

Have to say I got confused by the terminology used by the FIA and I think a lot of people did, but the flex is happening in the upper part of the wing, not the sides and not the lower part where it was happening in Baku last year. As the car gains speed, the upper flap segment very slightly bends under load. It is not as noticeable as in Baku last year with the naked/inexperienced eye. 

Edited by jonklug, 18 March 2025 - 10:16.

[Nicktendo86]

Eyeshield, on 18 Mar 2025 - 09:05, said:

It would be nice to see some proof and comparison shots to back up some of these claims.

Exactly. Of course the rear squats under load, not sure what the accusation against McLaren really is.

Edited by Nicktendo86, 18 March 2025 - 10:20.

[Ferrari2183]

Nicktendo86, on 18 Mar 2025 - 10:20, said:

Exactly. Of course the rear squats under load, not sure what the accusation against McLaren really is.

 

The sprung part of the car squats, meaning the camera too. Place your cursor of the start of the shark wing of the Mercedes on the previous page and compare that movement to that of the rear wing. The rear wing appears to be tilting on its mounting points. That is what I believe the discussion is about.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 18 March 2025 - 12:19.

[jonklug]

 

He means that there is around a 20mm difference, or more in how much the upper side of the McLaren RW bends downward at high speed. And this is compared to say the RedBull as we don't have images of Mercedes and Ferrari RW from Melbourne. The red line vs yellow line shows this difference in bend, with the McLaren picture from earlier allegedly showing more bend.

Edited by jonklug, 18 March 2025 - 10:41.

[Nobody]

jonklug, on 18 Mar 2025 - 10:10, said:

Well yes because they were able to use a high DF setup without losing too much speed on the straights because of this RW trick. So they had the best of both worlds, competitive high speed + high DF and good balance that made the car easy on the tires and the king of S3.

Have to say I got confused by the terminology used by the FIA and I think a lot of people did, but the flex is happening in the upper part of the wing, not the sides and not the lower part where it was happening in Baku last year. As the car gains speed, the upper flap segment very slightly bends under load. It is not as noticeable as in Baku last year with the naked/inexperienced eye.

I understand the combination of higher DF with a flexi would help in S3 and overall however it's Horner and George Russel who have pointed to McLaren doing something with their suspension and tyres, Horner saying that they can heat the tyres quicker than everyone AND get less deg than everyone, things thought to be mutually exclusive until now.

[pup]

Vanja isn’t adding anything new to the discussion except made up numbers and cherry picked photos. So, a standard F1tech post. That’s the ‘classic’ rear wing flex we’ve seen on cars for years and wouldn’t be measured by the new tests.

Edited by pup, 18 March 2025 - 12:45.

[Pingu Pi]

Nobody, on 18 Mar 2025 - 12:20, said:

I understand the combination of higher DF with a flexi would help in S3 and overall however it's Horner and George Russel who have pointed to McLaren doing something with their suspension and tyres, Horner saying that they can heat the tyres quicker than everyone AND get less deg than everyone, things thought to be mutually exclusive until now.

 

A remembrance of the old adage that... F1 is just a sport of tyre management. 

 

So Horner's dominant car periods were the same thing, they can heat them up better and maintain them over a stint. Max's car's have all been better at doing that exact thing you're talking to. Mercedes dominant cars were all doing exactly that, engine modes aside etc, they mullered other teams in races which meant they were holding onto the life far better. Macca now as well. How they go about it is different, but Horner's claims ain't mutually exclusive behaviours. He's just stating the obvious high-level performance factor. 

Edited by Pingu Pi, 18 March 2025 - 12:57.

[Eyeshield]

Why is the image referencing the previous gen Red Bull car?

jonklug, on 18 Mar 2025 - 09:01, said:

A very interesting X post on this topic by @AeroTechVH

 

 

 

[jonklug]

Eyeshield, on 18 Mar 2025 - 12:51, said:

Why is the image referencing the previous gen Red Bull car?

 

He is showing previous instances of similar flex

Edited by jonklug, 18 March 2025 - 13:00.

[pup]

Chillimeister, on 18 Mar 2025 - 07:56, said:

On the other hand, Ferrari were so off the pace in Australia that if it is them they really aren't making a good job of it ... much more likely to be the cars at the front. And if it isn't Red Bull, McLaren is the obvious candidate, Mercedes weren't that quick either.

But it’s often the case that a TD change actually follows a verbal directive to a team. And we know that Ferrari had to change *something* on their car prior to qualifying, per Leclerc. It was rumored that it was a ride height adjustment but I don’t think Ferrari actually said that. So, it’s entirely supposition, but also entirely possible that the FIA saw something they didn’t like during practice, made Ferrari change it, then issued the TD after the race. It would explain both Ferrari’s performance and the fact that we’re not seeing any evidence of mini DRS on any of these videos.

[Nicktendo86]

We will see how it shakes down this weekend I guess!

[vlado]

Nobody, on 18 Mar 2025 - 09:58, said:

S3 at Albert Park is where the McLaren was pulling 3, 4 tenths on the competition and 'saving' it's tyres, all this looks a red herring to me

Yes, the MCL39 has amazing tire management (almost no deg on the inter!) and that secret, or a basket of secrets, lies elsewhere.

Not saying they aren’t getting a benefit from flexing the rear wing, but this won’t change the pecking order.

[pup]

Someone proposed on F1tech that the new tests are just theater for the FIA and that it won't affect anyone.  Pure conspiracy theory, of course, which is why I love it.

 

Also, while the Italian press says it's anybody but Ferrari, AMuS says it's everybody but Mercedes.  Go figure.  No comment yet from the British press.

Edited by pup, 18 March 2025 - 16:52.

[brucewayne]

vlado, on 18 Mar 2025 - 14:34, said:

Yes, the MCL39 has amazing tire management (almost no deg on the inter!) and that secret, or a basket of secrets, lies elsewhere.

Not saying they aren’t getting a benefit from flexing the rear wing, but this won’t change the pecking order.

This part is something which seems to be more important in general, McLaren are able to switch on their tires right away without having any degradation problems.

This video, this time from Australia, seems to be interesting though. But I still can’t imagine that the new TD will have a big impact.

https://x.com/elreyg...Osfp9l5bhDKm2ug

[brucewayne]

pup, on 18 Mar 2025 - 15:45, said:

Someone proposed on F1tech that the new tests are just theater for the FIA and that it won't affect anyone. Pure conspiracy theory, of course, which is why I love it.

Also, while the Italian press says it's anybody but Ferrari, AMuS says it's everybody but Mercedes. Go figure. No comment yet from the British press.

The Mercedes rear wing assembly is flexing left and right.

[MikeTekRacing]

brucewayne, on 18 Mar 2025 - 20:22, said:

This part is something which seems to be more important in general, McLaren are able to switch on their tires right away without having any degradation problems.


https://x.com/elreyg...Osfp9l5bhDKm2ug

Kudos to them. I was mega impressed on how quickly they fired up the hards seeing how well they managed to conserve the tyres in the first stint.

I was expecting them to struggle at the restart, yet they were equal to Max for about half a lap then gone. wow

[vlado]

brucewayne, on 18 Mar 2025 - 20:22, said:

This part is something which seems to be more important in general, McLaren are able to switch on their tires right away without having any degradation problems.

This video, this time from Australia, seems to be interesting though. But I still can’t imagine that the new TD will have a big impact.

https://x.com/elreyg...Osfp9l5bhDKm2ug

 

Right..

 

There is an AMUS article saying that Red Bull are throwing "poison darts" at McLaren to create a sort of a... process of elimination where they can see what they are missing, but I very much doubt it's the flexi wings. 

 

Marshall said that the "interesting" stuff is tucked away inside so good luck to all involved 

 

They gonna need a lot of darts 

Edited by vlado, 18 March 2025 - 21:04.

[MRX94]

vlado, on 18 Mar 2025 - 21:02, said:

Right..

 

There is an AMUS article saying that Red Bull are throwing "poison darts" at McLaren to create a sort of a... process of elimination where they can see what they are missing, but I very much doubt it's the flexi wings. 

 

Marshall said that the "interesting" stuff is tucked away inside so good luck to all involved 

 

They gonna need a lot of darts 

I mean there is no way any team is going to admit "yes, that is our secret, you've figured it out chaps, well done".

 

It's probably a combination of multiple things, and flexible wings are highly likely a part of it.

[balmybaldwin]

I thought the TD mentioned slot gaps though, nothing to do with overall flexing? The variable slot gap thing was what Mclaren did in Baku last year,  and I think that image is from an article published (by the race.com?)around that time last year to explain what the test was at the time.

 

Has the FIA actually issued anything yet or is this all press speculation?

[catent]

The only other team/car during this particular formula I recall being able to turn on the tires on-demand, while simultaneously keeping them in an ideal window and avoiding excessive deg, was Ferrari’s SF-75 (prior to TD-39). They were rumored to have a flexible plank, which effectively allowed them to run the floor lower, maximizing downforce without excessive plank wear. I’d imagine it grants some direct or downstream benefits (likely via more latitude in terms of suspension settings) in terms of ride quality/compliance, especially at bumpier tracks and over curbs, too.

I wonder if McLaren have found a way to implement some amount of plank/underbody flex; seems logical given their implementation of flexible aero elsewhere. Also would explain how they’re able to run what I believe is a relatively stiff suspension while still seemingly maintaining really good balance and ride quality.

Edited by catent, 18 March 2025 - 22:20.

[kumo7]

UncleSam, on 17 Mar 2025 - 15:30, said:

https://www.the-race...wn-mark-hughes/

"Red Bull was repeatedly reined in on front wing flexibility in the 2010s and into the 2020s and much of the team’s mastery in this crucial aspect was attributed to its then-chief designer Rob Marshall. Marshall transferred for 2024 to McLaren. The team’s Miami upgrade last May included a front wing with greater aero flexibility and from that point onwards McLaren was invariably super-competitive, occasionally dominant."

if it were so simple, i mean if a F1 team’s ups and downs are be attributed to one single person, there will not be any necessity to have 1000 men working on it.
design is one thing, building is yet another,

A cording to Matt Damon, Tom Cruise is said to changed his safety guy in order to shoot the scene where Cruise runs down the skyscraper. it is just a story and the reality is a lot more complex. Tom Cruise need his fitness guy, camera team who are capable of shooting, director who is willing to do it and the insurer who will take the risks and so on. Surely you are about attributing all to his new safety guy?

Rob Marshall is a very skilled designer. McLaren is very happy to have him in the team. but there are bunch of more guys who are capable off producing such equipments, a car in motion 300kph and deflect precisely so that it remains on the car and reducing the drag while producing exact amount of down force.

Look, Once a designer create this method and a team masters it, then this trade remains in the team. Red Bull is certainly capable of building a good equipment then and now. so move of one personnel will not change the fate of the engineering. Unfortunately, Red Bull lost not only the designer, but also the mind, the imagination, and the head of the actual team and more to other team recently. This massive migrations certainly cause performance differences. Mclaren has been building its team surely but in a very certain way. the team is strong. This is what it takes to win the races.

McLaren was fair the last season to stop upper rear wing deflecting without FIA commanding it. so it of a fair play, which is something very hard to find in the most high pressure high cost competitions.

Edited by kumo7, 19 March 2025 - 08:17.

[jonklug]

According to
https://autoracer.it...tare-la-mclaren

According to their sources, the TD contains wording that suggests that a wing that passes static load tests is no longer necessarily compliant with the rules.

Does this mean that a visual test will be included and that they're willing to DQ a team if their wings are shown to bend too much on camera? We shall have to wait and see.

Edited by jonklug, 19 March 2025 - 11:31.

[Nicktendo86]

Sounds like from that article that red bull are a little desperate and trying to scattergun reasons McLaren might be quick without really knowing for sure. Also sounds like the smaller teams will be affected by the TD this weekend.

[JimmyClark]

jonklug, on 19 Mar 2025 - 11:29, said:

According to
https://autoracer.it...tare-la-mclaren

According to their sources, the TD contains wording that suggests that a wing that passes static load tests is no longer necessarily compliant with the rules.

Does this mean that a visual test will be included and that they're willing to DQ a team if their wings are shown to bend too much on camera? We shall have to wait and see.

 

It sounds like it, though it will need to be quite a rigid definition, otherwise post-race scrutineering protests and counter protests is going to be crazy. Maybe they will do something high-tech, maybe a live laser measurement or something like that? 

[RedRabbit]

catent, on 18 Mar 2025 - 22:18, said:

The only other team/car during this particular formula I recall being able to turn on the tires on-demand, while simultaneously keeping them in an ideal window and avoiding excessive deg, was Ferrari’s SF-75 (prior to TD-39). They were rumored to have a flexible plank, which effectively allowed them to run the floor lower, maximizing downforce without excessive plank wear. I’d imagine it grants some direct or downstream benefits (likely via more latitude in terms of suspension settings) in terms of ride quality/compliance, especially at bumpier tracks and over curbs, too.

I wonder if McLaren have found a way to implement some amount of plank/underbody flex; seems logical given their implementation of flexible aero elsewhere. Also would explain how they’re able to run what I believe is a relatively stiff suspension while still seemingly maintaining really good balance and ride quality.

Have you seen how ridiculously complex the McLaren suspension is?! Front and rear.

There are arms and angles so extreme that Pierre Wache has said that it doesn't look like it should work, but obviously does. According to his quick look during testing, the anti-dive is so extreme that the suspension should be much to hard.

And whatever is making it work is under the skin.

[vlado]

catent, on 18 Mar 2025 - 22:18, said:

The only other team/car during this particular formula I recall being able to turn on the tires on-demand, while simultaneously keeping them in an ideal window and avoiding excessive deg, was Ferrari’s SF-75 (prior to TD-39). They were rumored to have a flexible plank, which effectively allowed them to run the floor lower, maximizing downforce without excessive plank wear. I’d imagine it grants some direct or downstream benefits (likely via more latitude in terms of suspension settings) in terms of ride quality/compliance, especially at bumpier tracks and over curbs, too.

I wonder if McLaren have found a way to implement some amount of plank/underbody flex; seems logical given their implementation of flexible aero elsewhere. Also would explain how they’re able to run what I believe is a relatively stiff suspension while still seemingly maintaining really good balance and ride quality.

Plausible but again even if that’s the case it’s likely not the only thing.

Trying to take away an advantage a team has by changing the current regulation/testing doesn’t sit well with me really

[mhno1f]

Running more wing to protect the rears is something that's often mentioned by the drivers/teams - but the Mac wing didn't really look like a barn door, so I'd be surprised if it helps that much over one lap. Over longer stints, yes I can see that. And hasn't the mac always been good on rear deg over the last few years? Whereas they have struggled with front limited tracks. Which is/was opposite to Ferrari. 

[ferrarista]

jonklug, on 19 Mar 2025 - 11:29, said:

According to
https://autoracer.it...tare-la-mclaren

According to their sources, the TD contains wording that suggests that a wing that passes static load tests is no longer necessarily compliant with the rules.

Does this mean that a visual test will be included and that they're willing to DQ a team if their wings are shown to bend too much on camera? We shall have to wait and see.

More importantly sources from Red Bull told AR that they know the solutions that Rob Marshall wanted to implement at Red Bull (one of them being the mini DRS of last year) and that they decided against because above a simple grey area, most of these solutions in the field of aero elasticity.

I wonder if the next target of Red Bull will be about a flexy floor.

[jonklug]

ferrarista, on 19 Mar 2025 - 12:24, said:

More importantly sources from Red Bull told AR that they know the solutions that Rob Marshall wanted to implement at Red Bull (one of them being the mini DRS of last year) and that they decided against because above a simple grey area, most of these solutions in the field of aero elasticity.

I wonder if the next target of Red Bull will be about a flexy floor.

 

Flexy floor got banned in 2022 thanks to Toto's TD. 

[vlado]

jonklug, on 19 Mar 2025 - 12:28, said:

Flexy floor got banned in 2022 thanks to Toto's TD.

Pure speculation but there might be a way around that particular test

[ferrarista]

pup, on 18 Mar 2025 - 13:43, said:

But it’s often the case that a TD change actually follows a verbal directive to a team. And we know that Ferrari had to change *something* on their car prior to qualifying, per Leclerc. It was rumored that it was a ride height adjustment but I don’t think Ferrari actually said that. So, it’s entirely supposition, but also entirely possible that the FIA saw something they didn’t like during practice, made Ferrari change it, then issued the TD after the race. It would explain both Ferrari’s performance and the fact that we’re not seeing any evidence of mini DRS on any of these videos.

I would wait for China to arrive to a conclusion regarding Ferrari performance.

If I were you, I would be more worried when Toto and Horner say that it is “strange” how Mclaren warms up the tyres without suffering any important deg, they don’t talk for nothing.

[ferrarista]

jonklug, on 19 Mar 2025 - 12:28, said:

Flexy floor got banned in 2022 thanks to Toto's TD.

Who knows, technology develops quickly in F1.

[chhatra]

mhno1f, on 19 Mar 2025 - 12:16, said:

Running more wing to protect the rears is something that's often mentioned by the drivers/teams - but the Mac wing didn't really look like a barn door, so I'd be surprised if it helps that much over one lap. Over longer stints, yes I can see that. And hasn't the mac always been good on rear deg over the last few years? Whereas they have struggled with front limited tracks. Which is/was opposite to Ferrari.

Also remember that McLaren only ran
the higher downforce wing due to weather. They initially brought and ran with the lower spec one.

[brucewayne]

https://t.co/6yTHZoZhUb

About damn time.

[ferrarista]

brucewayne, on 19 Mar 2025 - 17:17, said:

https://t.co/6yTHZoZhUb

About damn time.

Red Bull looks extremely serious in trying to weaken Mclaren.

Edited by ferrarista, 19 March 2025 - 17:26.

[jonklug]

ferrarista, on 19 Mar 2025 - 17:21, said:

Red Bull looks extremely serious in trying to weaken Mclaren.

Well, they know Rob Marshall best 

[pup]

So, I rarely if ever venture into Ferrari world, but this thread leads me to imagine that it is a wild orgy of fantasy centered on links to Autoracer.it

 

Do you guys really have no better source of information?

Edited by pup, 19 March 2025 - 17:40.

[vlado]

pup, on 19 Mar 2025 - 17:39, said:

So, I rarely if ever venture into Ferrari world, but this thread leads me to imagine that it is a wild orgy of fantasy centered on links to Autoracer.it

Do you guys really have no better source of information?

It’s got the best track record.

Not 100% accurate by any means, but their certainly have some connections inside the factory.