128 replies to this topic

[danmills]

I think any F2 champion should be able to return after a year sabbatical winning a title. Imagine Pourchaire or Drugovich returning and straight up winning again, it would certainly improve their chances of getting looked at and at the very least keep what would then be evidenced the best drivers in the active racing pool.

Edited by danmills, 21 December 2024 - 11:32.

[DJH63]

I think any F2 champion should be able to return after a year sabbatical winning a title. Imagine Pourchaire or Drugovich returning and straight up winning again, it would certainly improve their chances of getting looked at and at the very least keep what would then be evidenced the best drivers in the active racing pool.

Both Pourchaire and Drugovich turned up with the F2 title and decent financial backing and nobody wanted then. Winning F2 a second time wouldn’t change that.

 

In Pourchaire’s case, nobody in F1, Indycar or WEC wanted to take his money and give him a race seat this year. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about how he is seen by the people with the data….

[Anja]

I think any F2 champion should be able to return after a year sabbatical winning a title. Imagine Pourchaire or Drugovich returning and straight up winning again, it would certainly improve their chances of getting looked at and at the very least keep what would then be evidenced the best drivers in the active racing pool.

 

Would it?

[Myrvold]

I think any F2 champion should be able to return after a year sabbatical winning a title. Imagine Pourchaire or Drugovich returning and straight up winning again, it would certainly improve their chances of getting looked at and at the very least keep what would then be evidenced the best drivers in the active racing pool.

 

They can, after 2 seasons IIRC. 

[messy]

Both Pourchaire and Drugovich turned up with the F2 title and decent financial backing and nobody wanted then. Winning F2 a second time wouldn’t change that.
 
In Pourchaire’s case, nobody in F1, Indycar or WEC wanted to take his money and give him a race seat this year. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about how he is seen by the people with the data….

Pourchaire’s title winning season, bizarrely, harmed his reputation a lot I think. Runner-up in 2022 with three or four feature race wins in his second year - good stuff. He went into 2023 in the Vandoorne position - just winning the title wasn’t enough, he had to dominate, and he didn’t. I think Drugovich’s title season was much more convincing than Pourchaire’s and he kinda got closer to F1, but….these things happen really. Not every Champion gets there (or makes a compelling enough case for it, in honesty)

[KWSN - DSM]

Pourchaire’s title winning season, bizarrely, harmed his reputation a lot I think. Runner-up in 2022 with three or four feature race wins in his second year - good stuff. He went into 2023 in the Vandoorne position - just winning the title wasn’t enough, he had to dominate, and he didn’t. I think Drugovich’s title season was much more convincing than Pourchaire’s and he kinda got closer to F1, but….these things happen really. Not every Champion gets there (or makes a compelling enough case for it, in honesty)

 

Pourchaire's Championship season was not very convincing, however more damming is as posted further up, no one who have employed him since have hung on to him, or have placed him way lower than any other championship winner for last many seasons.

 

From his first F2 season to now a lot have changed, he was very hyped and now is less than an afterthought, I am interested in what exactly he is doing to the point he is almost fired repeatedly.

[Frood]

Has Pourchaire been "fired repeatedly"? ART literally couldn't keep him due to the F2 rules. McLaren signing Siegel wasn't exactly for performance reasons. Sauber's academy has never been a serious prospect, and hasn't helped any of the other 27 drivers they've fired.

[KWSN - DSM]

Has Pourchaire been "fired repeatedly"? ART literally couldn't keep him due to the F2 rules. McLaren signing Siegel wasn't exactly for performance reasons. Sauber's academy has never been a serious prospect, and hasn't helped any of the other 27 drivers they've fired.

 

Sauber Junior winning F2 not retained.

Signed Indycar contract, which was then terminated

Signed with Peugeot WEC, will be a reserve driver.

[Frood]

Sauber Junior winning F2 not retained.

I mean, yes, arguably that is being fired, I'll give you that. However, given that none of Sauber's 28 previous junior drivers have reached F1, that's also a reflection on the Sauber academy itself.
 

Signed Indycar contract, which was then terminated

For reasons that can't be attributed to his performance, given that the driver who replaced him had a worse average points scoring rate and finishing position, but had funding.
 

Signed with Peugeot WEC, will be a reserve driver.

That's not being fired.

I'm not saying Pourchaire deserves to be in F1, but I think it's disingenuous to say he's been "repeatedly fired".

 

Anyway, to try and keep things on 2025, I'm not seeing a standout championship favourite. Lindblad needs to make sure he doesn't have an end-of-season collapse like he has for the past two years, whether that's been out of his control or not. If ART keep Martins on, I could see him perhaps pushing for the title, but I don't see how it'll do him any favours like the aforementioned Drugovich or Pourchaire.

 

Verschoor winning would be amusing, if only for the poor light it would cast on the series' perception.

Edited by Frood, 21 December 2024 - 23:57.

[DJH63]

Has Pourchaire been "fired repeatedly"? ART literally couldn't keep him due to the F2 rules. McLaren signing Siegel wasn't exactly for performance reasons. Sauber's academy has never been a serious prospect, and hasn't helped any of the other 27 drivers they've fired.

He’s definitely not been fired repeatedly, as said though, despite his good CV, nobody wants to take his money and give him a seat so there us obviously ​something we aren’t seeing 

[Myrvold]

He’s definitely not been fired repeatedly, as said though, despite his good CV, nobody wants to take his money and give him a seat so there us obviously ​something we aren’t seeing

Does he bring much money though?

[Muppetmad]

I have the same question. He had some funding back in the day, but I haven't seen anything to suggest he still brings money today (but would be happy to be corrected).

[Viryfan]

Theo's father stopped funding him after 2022.

Sauber paid his 2023 season fully.

[Frood]

Hitech now has an alliance with Toyota and will be known as Hitech TGR in all series. Surprising after Miyata has already been announced at ART!

[HistoryFan]

John Bennett will stay at Van Amersfoort after he competed 4 races in 2024.

 

Invicta: Leonardo Fornaroli – Roman Stanek

Campos: Arvin Lindblad – Pepe Marti

MP: Richard Verschoor – Oliver Goethe

Hitech: Dino Breganovic – Luke Browning

Prema: Gabriele Mini – Sebastian Montoya

DAMS: Jak Crawford – Kush Maini

ART: Ritomo Miyata – Victor Martins (?)

Rodin: Christian Mansell – Alex Dunne (?)

AIX: Joshua Dürksen – Cian Shields (?) / Nicolas Varrone (?)
Trident: Masx Esterson – Sami Meguetounif
Van Amersfoort: John Benett – Rafael Vollagomez (?)

[messy]

Random one. Is John Bennett related to/son of ex BTCC driver Phil Bennett? I swear I read he was, but now I can't find it.

[Anja]

John is definitely not his son according to his personal website: https://www.johnbenn...acing.com/about

 

 

 

Following in the wheel tracks of his father Tony, a successful club racer

Edited by Anja, 28 December 2024 - 20:54.

[William Hunt]

Sauber Junior winning F2 not retained.

Signed Indycar contract, which was then terminated

Signed with Peugeot WEC, will be a reserve driver.

- How many drivers from the Sauber Academy were ever promoted to F1? None!

 

Biggest factor that harmed Pourchaire's F1 chances were not his results and certainly not his talent but..., in my humble opinion, that Frédéric Vasseur left Sauber for Ferrari in 2023. Pourchaire was Vasseur's protégé and with Vasseur gone the Sauber management preferred Zhou's money over Pourchaire's higher potential / talent.

 

Théo should have been in that Sauber F1 car in 2023 already. The only reason he didn't get it was Zhou's money (fact, not an opinion) so please (some people mentioned this) stop saying it's because of "data" or "talent". It isn'it, just compare Zhou or Siegel's junior cv with Theo's.

 

- The only reason Pourchaire (McLaren did hire him back for a subsitution later) was because of the financial backing Nolan Siegel brings. Not because Siegel is more talented as Pourchaire. Check Siegel's pre IndyCar cv, compare that with Pourchaire's. It's weaker (fact, not just my opinion)

 

- Peugeot could only offer a reserve seat because their race driver line-up was already filled up (fact).

 

* I personally don't find Gabriel Bortoleto a better or more talented driver as Théo Pourchaire either. Bortoleto just had timing that worked out better whilst Pourchaire's road to F1 was blocked by a paydriver with huge backing (Zhou).

 

It's true though that Pourchaire's title winning year in F2 in 2023 only was backed with 1 race victory. But the potential he had shown prior to that year had already shown that he had plenty of potential for F1.

Edited by William Hunt, 28 December 2024 - 21:09.

[DJH63]

With respect William, that’s a pretty disingenuous post as it ignores a couple of vital facts.

 

1. ​He wasn’t Vasseur’s protege, Vasseur was just happy to take Papa Pourchaire’s substantial funding in return for a place at Sauber as that funding helped keep the team going when they really needed funds. It was simply a very good business decision. Vasseur could’ve taken Pourchaire with him to Ferrari. He didn’t. Because he didn't actually rate Pourchaire that highly.
2. After he lost the McLaren seat, Kanaan went up and down the paddock trying to get him a new seat. Nobody was interested, even with Brown and Kanaan’s support and funds behind him.
3. Peugeot are one of 10 Hypercar teams. Pourchaire didn’t take a reserve role there because he’s obsessed with Peugeot and doing sim work for their end of life programme, he took the role as nobody else was interested.

Clearly you rate Pourchaire and so I understand you’re overlooking certain facts, but the ultimate reality is that nobody in F1, Indycar or WEC wanted to take a punt on him. Hell, McLaren could’ve easily given him a FE seat but they chose Taylor Barnard instead…..

[SenorSjon]

His F2 title didn't do him any favors seeing how the season went.

[messy]

For me it's just that last season. His first two seasons in F2 justified promotion. It's easy to forget how young he was too, F2 debut at 17/18? Second year he won a lot of feature races, led a lot of laps. He should never have stayed for the third year, it was a Vandoorne situation where winning wouldn't cut it, he had to absolutely dominate and there were already red flags, such as being outqualified by Vesti in 2022, that he might not quite be able to do that.

I think sometimes in F2 especially, it's about recognising when's the best time, profile and reputation wise, to move on, and it's not necessarily best to stay around till you win the championship.

Hypothetical stretch - Pourchaire moves on to a really strong Super Formula/reserve role for 2023. Vesti wins the F2 crown. Both more likely to be in F1 for '25 than they are now.

[noikeee]

There was a rumour he'd done a lot of secret F3 testing. That would explain why in F3 we were all very keen on him and missed that the champion Piastri was the bigger talent.

Extra help or not, he still did quite well in his first 2 F2 seasons for such a young guy. But I agree his third, championship winning season, was underwhelming. I think he's still a good driver, but just didn't quite have the ceiling of potential we thought he would. Perhaps he's a 6/10 or 7/10 driver instead of a 8/10 or 9/10 which is what he was looking like initially.

[Disgrace]

Yeah, Lundgaard is a good example of someone bailing from F2 at the right time. In 2025, he'll be where Pourchaire thought he might have had a chance of being.

[Viryfan]

Pourchaire was never hired by Vasseur because he thought he was a great talent.

Vasseur and Philippe took Theo's father fat paycheck as they thought that his move from F4 to F3 was way too foolish for their taste so they agreed late 2019 for a 2 year F3 programm for roughly 1.6M €.

Theo's father was willing to spend up to 2 million € for a 1 year programm at Prema but Mia Sharizman (head of Renault Sport academy at the time) told him he was crazy
and advised him to get in touch with ART as they would provide a nearly as good car for a cheaper deal.

Then Theo had a way better F3 season than expected so he had no choice but move up to F2.

If Vasseur had believed in Pourchaire, Theo would've been promoted late 2021 or 2022.

When Fred's want someone he makes sure he gets him even at loss financially (look at Ocon's Gp3 season in 2015 or Albon F2 season in 2017).

Also Theo and his father never wanted to do a third season but their hand was forced by Sauber as they did fully fund the season.

Edited by Viryfan, 29 December 2024 - 20:57.

[Jellyfishcake]

Lundgaard actually got a little fortunate, but also made the right choice, I'm guessing her had started to make connections going into his F2 season in 2021, because he did the IndyCar one off and shined, but his F2 season was similar to Bearmans this year, miles off rookie teammate after a decent debut season, it just went wrong. But he was right to look elsewhere it was clear his Renault connection wasn going to be a dead end and F1 was not on the table.

 

Pourchaire has talent, but for sure like many have said the 3rd season did more harm than good, which shows that winning a championship can sometimes not really matter.

2023 had Bearman getting the double win in Baku, two more feature wins, Doohan probably the guy who would have won the season if his car worked initially, Martins flying in qualifying as a rookie teammate

It definitely was a mistake, he would have been better served giving up on F1 and looking elsewhere, the Sauber Academy wasn't like others they didn't and weren't in a place to offer actual F1 drives and that is Pourchaires biggest mistake, chasing a dream that wasn't on

[Disgrace]

I also wonder if him signing up as reserve driver for the potentially moribund Peugeot WEC team is really the best option, if he's intent on WEC. Would he not be better off showing off his talent by racing in the European series?

[Viryfan]

I also wonder if him signing up as reserve driver for the potentially moribund Peugeot WEC team is really the best option, if he's intent on WEC. Would he not be better off showing off his talent by racing in the European series?

Theo is currently sealing a deal with ELMS teams.

[DJH63]

Theo is currently sealing a deal with ELMS teams.

It is quite a damning indictment of that 2023 season that Vesti and Pourchaire who were both aligned with F1 teams ended up in a backwater series racing 50+ techbros and financiers.

[Viryfan]

It is quite a damning indictment of that 2023 season that Vesti and Pourchaire who were both aligned with F1 teams ended up in a backwater series racing 50+ techbros and financiers.

Well Hypercar teams wants driver with prototype experience unless you are coming from a manufacturer gt program.

So unless you have to cut your teeth in ELMS.

If you look at Vesti now, he has a GTP program with AX racing for enduros.

Edited by Viryfan, 30 December 2024 - 10:54.