153 replies to this topic

[NCB619]

Joseki, on 30 Sept 2024 - 17:06, said:

I genuinely don't remember the last time a major "rumored performance" turned out to be true in F1.

 

In 2012-13 Renault was rumored to be the engine to beat (worst engine in 2014).

In 2017 Ferrari was rumored to be massively behind (almost title contenders).

In 2022 Red Bull was rumored to be hugely behind schedule (won both WDC and WCC).

These sound more like horrible opinions rather than rumours..
IIRC, the 'rumours' at the time were the complete almost the complete opposite to this list.

[kumo7]

The team was once called Renault. If it were Renault quiting its own engine, it would have made much bigger impacts. But, not, as it is called Alpine, which the most of the public has no idea anyways, does not really matter nor harm the reputation of Renault itself. I know French will be very upset about it, but, for the rest of the world, not.

 

Who cares if Super Aguri would have decided not to use Honda Unit but choose to go with Mercedes instead? I say Japanese publich would have said how interesting.

 

Viry Unit were not delivering much. so, it did not survive. 

Edited by kumo7, 01 October 2024 - 08:50.

[PayasYouRace]

Disgrace, on 30 Sept 2024 - 17:12, said:

An embarrassing failure given that they loaded the turbo hybrid gun that killed them. That being said, this move is surely... good?

They have no reason to sell, the team is making money. Now those profits will be turbocharged. With a decent chassis in 2026, they could be Williams in 2014/15.

The mood in Enstone is probably celebratory. But yes, their identity will be gone and with it any reason to particularly support the team.

They should just do the right thing and enter as Toleman-Mercedes.

[BRG]

Time for yet another name change for the Enstone team.

 

How about Andretti-Cadillac?

[JimmyClark]

pdac, on 01 Oct 2024 - 08:22, said:

F1 is not electric and i would not say it's that hybrid either.

Technically that may be, but the reason why manufacturers wanted the engines was to be "road relevant" and sell their environmentally friendly credentials to the laymen who buy them. So this is very embarrassing for their brand in a wider sense.

[PayasYouRace]

pdac, on 01 Oct 2024 - 08:22, said:

F1 is not electric and i would not say it's that hybrid either.

It’s definitely hybrid.

[Joseki]

Renault hasn't made a competitive engine more than 10 years in F1, but I'm still gonna miss them.

 

[BRG]

It looked pretty competitive in 2016/7/8 even if it was disguised as a wrist watch.

[Henri Greuter]

pdac, on 30 Sept 2024 - 22:34, said:

Well, Red Bull did pretty well in the last season when Honda decided to quit (causing Honda to hang around a bit longer, it seems).

 

 

Yes, true.

 

But look at how Honda was doing at the time they made their decision, and compare that with the current situation of Renault.

[Henri Greuter]

BRG, on 01 Oct 2024 - 09:51, said:

It looked pretty competitive in 2016/7/8 even if it was disguised as a wrist watch.

 

 

That was primarily Newey Magic in the hands of Verstappen and Ricciardo as long as they didn't retire from the race.  Both Daniel and Max had in one season more engine related retirements that Lewis Hamilton in his entire Hybrid Merc career till date.!!!!

Edited by Henri Greuter, 01 October 2024 - 11:08.

[Brawn BGP 001]

Renault got beat by its customer teams in 2009, 2010, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020.

 

The Merc engine may help them move up the field, but they will need to make a better chassis, they at the moment remind me of McLaren in the mid-2010s dysfunction at the top and no clear plan on how to get back to the top.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 01 October 2024 - 11:15.

[Spillage]

A real shame what a shambles Renault's motorsport program has become.

[Secretariat]

pup, on 30 Sept 2024 - 16:17, said:

I want to know more about their new “F1 Monitoring Unit”. Is this some boondoggle to maintain paddock passes for execs, or just a sweet new TV for the factory break room?

 

 

Myrvold, on 30 Sept 2024 - 16:28, said:

As it looks like Viry will be continuing with everything except the F1 stuff, this confuses me as well!

It is as if they want to keep everything in place but shuffle everything around to move work out of France (economic reasons?). As it stands, two thirds of the Horse Powertrains ownership is currently in F1. Geely has been rumored off/on for years having interest to be in F1. Zhou has "very close" connections to Geely and was apart of the Alpine (Renault) driver development program.

 

In trying to untangle this puzzle, what if Renault "sell" their power unit IP to Horse Powertrains (Renault/Geely/Amarco) which is branded as Geely for some future entrant? Conversely, is it conceivable that the Mercedes deal (terms not formalized as far as I can see) is only meant to be a short term solution? Keeping an eye on developments through this monitoring center makes more sense through this lens in my opinion.

[sterlingfan2000]

I know Budget Cap is 130€ Million for the Engines.

If I were Renault, Toyota or General Motors, I would Develope a PU with 250€ Million per year outside of F1. Then if my engine has surpassed Mercedes, I would try to join. Develope the PU in secret outside of F1

[kumo7]

Joseki, on 01 Oct 2024 - 09:09, said:

Renault hasn't made a competitive engine more than 10 years in F1, but I'm still gonna miss them.

 

 

You do not have to miss them at all. Renault will be active with Alpine for WEC. Viry will be there.

As writing what I wrote here above, I am not sure anymore what exaclty I am writing, tho. 

[Nathan]

BRG, on 01 Oct 2024 - 08:48, said:

Time for yet another name change for the Enstone team.

 

How about Andretti-Cadillac?

 

How about just 'Cadillac' so it actually happens. 

[Henri Greuter]

Nathan, on 01 Oct 2024 - 13:00, said:

How about just 'Cadillac' so it actually happens. 

 

 

Cadillac with a 1.6 liter turbo engine?

If the had done something in WEC with a turbocharged engine in order to make a bridge to a more modern day image than remaining stuck in the age of Dinosaurs with bigblocktechnology?

[pup]

BRG, on 01 Oct 2024 - 08:48, said:

Time for yet another name change for the Enstone team.

 

How about Andretti-Cadillac?

 

I think the question for this thread is IF Andretti made a bid for the team, would there be some form of cooperation in the deal between Renault and GM on the engine.  I think the rumors earlier this year to that effect were a bit pie in the sky (and if nothing else surely refuted by this announcement), but some consulting arrangement or IP licensing between GM and Viry wouldn't be crazy to ponder.  

[LolaB0860]

Spillage, on 01 Oct 2024 - 11:12, said:

A real shame what a shambles Renault's motorsport program has become.

Pitiful 3 wins between 2007-2024... and one of those 3 wins was cheated win, one lucky lottery win... Fuji 2008 was the only genuine

Oh I forgot the 2 "Lotus" rebadged Räikkonen wins lol. I guess they were something

Edited by LolaB0860, 01 October 2024 - 15:13.

[Nathan]

Henri Greuter, on 01 Oct 2024 - 13:48, said:

make a bridge to a more modern day image than remaining stuck in the age of Dinosaurs with bigblocktechnology?

 

GM shouldn’t worry about people that don’t understand in real world street use - and street performance, frankly - a larger /cyl capacity with lower revving ability is superior to a <501cc/cylinder multi-valve DOHC.

 

Once I raced in a class that had a 150hp limit with a 18 lbs/stock HP min weight (w/driver).  Everyone and their dog ran a 1.6/1.8 Honda or 2.0 Ford. I came with a 24-year old FWD Chevy Beretta complete with torsion beam rear suspension & MacPherson front. It had a 140hp 3.1-liter iron block, 12 pushrods, 12 valves all slung in front of the front axle. All we did was win, win, win. Just over half our starts, with two-thirds of our starts being at the back because of points. They had no chance on the straights because if you did the math with the gear ratios we had 30+% more torque to the ground with the same weight.

 

For year 2 the leading Honda’s tried to get the HP rule moved to 160 so they could run B16As.  Unfortunately, one of the old geezers in the room   noted the 3.1 had a 160hp offering.

 

Perceptions aren’t worth chasing. After being accused of cheating for 2 years I switched to an Integra to match the competition - but with an automatic.  Of course, the competition shook their heads with a laugh, the tech guys asked why.  None did the math to see in 2nd gear I hit the rev limiter right when I needed to brake, and that my 2nd gear put much more torque to the wheels than the 3rd gear the manuals had to run.

 

Torque, torque, torque. And whenever you want it. Using less fuel. Now-a-days with less weight.

 

[mclarensmps]

I know this has been coming but now that it's official, it's really disappointing. 

[BRG]

Henri Greuter, on 01 Oct 2024 - 13:48, said:

Cadillac with a 1.6 liter turbo engine?

 

The Cadillac CT4 is sold in China with a 1.5 litre turbo engine, so....

 

Not sure about any Ferraris with 1.6 litre turbos?

[pdac]

JimmyClark, on 01 Oct 2024 - 08:58, said:

Technically that may be, but the reason why manufacturers wanted the engines was to be "road relevant" and sell their environmentally friendly credentials to the laymen who buy them. So this is very embarrassing for their brand in a wider sense.

 

There's a couple of things that I question:

 

1. Is there any "road relevance" for the Renault brand?

2. Are manufacturers keen to make their cars environmentally friendly or is it just that their marketing people say they need something to promote their cars in that area (even if it's about bending the truth until it reaches breaking point)?

[Ali_G]

P123, on 30 Sept 2024 - 17:03, said:

They didn't want to commit the funds required for R&D of the new PU. Weak stuff, but the rebrand to Alpine was always an odd one, and the surrender flag is almost fully raised.

Never understood the rebrand to Alpine. It’s a brand that very few people know about and basically nixxed any brand awareness Renault we’re getting from F1. We also lost the black and yellow Renault colours which were a huge loss.

[pup]

Ali_G, on 01 Oct 2024 - 17:37, said:

Never understood the rebrand to Alpine. It’s a brand that very few people know about...

 

 

I think there's your reason.  

 

Renault has big plans for Alpine as a halo brand - though now via electric vehicles, which probably makes their F1 program less useful.  

[LolaB0860]

At least the F1 rules will dictate that the engine will be called Mercedes, not fake-rebranded as Alpine.

 

In WEC they have a spec LMP2 chassis built and mildly modified by Oreca and then rebadged as Alpine, and engine built and modified by Mecachrome and then rebadged as Alpine... and even the team is outsourced to Signatech but rebadged as Alpine. That's the laziest of laziness

 

Their 11 year old LMP history is pure gold of course...

 

Alpine A450-Nissan (Oreca 03 Nissan)

Alpine A450b-Nissan (Oreca 03R Nissan)

Alpine A460-Nissan (Oreca 05 Nissan)

Alpine A470-Gibson (Oreca 07 Gibson - Spec LMP2 car)

Alpine A480-Gibson (Oreca R-One Gibson - Grandfathered Rebellion LMP1 car)

Alpine A424-Alpine (Oreca Mecachrome)

Edited by LolaB0860, 01 October 2024 - 18:28.

[Viryfan]

Alpine has decided to break the contract with Mecachrome for the 2025 engine and 170 contractors will be laid off at the end of the year.

Given those news, don't be surprised if Renault engines blows hands over fist next year like the Peugeot engine did in 2000 with 57 engine failures in the official sessions.

[eibyyz]

Viryfan, on 01 Oct 2024 - 18:58, said:

Alpine has decided to break the contract with Mecachrome for the 2025 engine and 170 contractors will be laid off at the end of the year.

Given those news, don't be surprised if Renault engines blows hands over fist next year like the Peugeot engine did in 2000 with 57 engine failures in the official sessions.

 

You're sure it'll be *next* year?  <g> 

[Viryfan]

eibyyz, on 01 Oct 2024 - 19:16, said:

You're sure it'll be *next* year? <g>

Nope it is happening right now

From January 1st 2025

Edited by Viryfan, 01 October 2024 - 19:18.

[pup]

I think Mechachrome announced those layoffs months ago, unless this in in addition to those. 

[Viryfan]

pup, on 01 Oct 2024 - 19:18, said:

I think Mechachrome announced those layoffs months ago, unless this in in addition to those.

Those contractors laid off are not from mecachrome but working directly at Viry

[JimmyClark]

pdac, on 01 Oct 2024 - 16:56, said:

There's a couple of things that I question:

1. Is there any "road relevance" for the Renault brand?
2. Are manufacturers keen to make their cars environmentally friendly or is it just that their marketing people say they need something to promote their cars in that area (even if it's about bending the truth until it reaches breaking point)?

Oh indeed this is all PR based. Your second question is my point - no matter what the manufacturers actually want to achieve, this is not a good look for Renault in any PR sense.

We could go down the rabbithole of whether electric cars are actually good for the environment (the nature and human costs of mining lithium, the extra asphalt needed for roads to cope with weight, etc), but purely for PR this does not look good for the Renault brand.

[Disgrace]

Viryfan, on 01 Oct 2024 - 18:58, said:

Alpine has decided to break the contract with Mecachrome for the 2025 engine and 170 contractors will be laid off at the end of the year.

Given those news, don't be surprised if Renault engines blows hands over fist next year like the Peugeot engine did in 2000 with 57 engine failures in the official sessions.

 

I'm tempted to think reliability will go up...

[kumo7]

Viryfan, on 01 Oct 2024 - 18:58, said:

Alpine has decided to break the contract with Mecachrome for the 2025 engine and 170 contractors will be laid off at the end of the year.

Given those news, don't be surprised if Renault engines blows hands over fist next year like the Peugeot engine did in 2000 with 57 engine failures in the official sessions.

revenge?

ironically it hurts Renault and justifies Alpine.

[pdac]

JimmyClark, on 01 Oct 2024 - 19:24, said:

Oh indeed this is all PR based. Your second question is my point - no matter what the manufacturers actually want to achieve, this is not a good look for Renault in any PR sense.

We could go down the rabbithole of whether electric cars are actually good for the environment (the nature and human costs of mining lithium, the extra asphalt needed for roads to cope with weight, etc), but purely for PR this does not look good for the Renault brand.

 

I think my point is that they are not using the Renault brand for their team. I'm not sure how they feel about the Alpine brand, but I would imagine that this is not hurting the core Renault brand one bit as your average Joe no longer sees Renault on the list of F1 teams and so assumes that Renault are not in F1.

 

The other thing to remember is, as much as marketing people would like you to believe otherwise, I don't think many people base their car purchase decision on who's doing well in F1. The value of F1, from a marketing perspective is in the business-to-business arena and, although they will not be using Renault power, they will still be able to give clients F1 freebees.

Edited by pdac, 01 October 2024 - 21:13.

[pup]

I think the average European fan knows that Renault and Alpine are one. If you’re talking US though, I think the average joe thinks that Alpine was a sweet car stereo back in the 80’s and that Renault is the French guy who taught Natalie Portman how to be a hit man.

[MikeTekRacing]

pup, on 01 Oct 2024 - 21:35, said:

I think the average European fan knows that Renault and Alpine are one. If you’re talking US though, I think the average joe thinks that Alpine was a sweet car stereo back in the 80’s and that Renault is the French guy who taught Natalie Portman how to be a hit man.

Brand awareness in Europe is clearly better for Renault and Alpine. I doubt a lot of people here know or care what Renault is.

Or the number of Europeans that can talk about an LS1, a Small Block is very similar.

 

Young Europeans don't know Alpine too much. Young F1 fans are not the ones in their 50s+, they are the spenders and they are the targets.

[BRG]

Disgrace, on 01 Oct 2024 - 19:36, said:

I'm tempted to think reliability will go up...

The irony is that if those protesting at Viry had done a better job of building F1 engines, they would still be working on F1 engines.  Karma....or should that be Carma?

[Viryfan]

https://www.francebl...achrome-7760275

So Renault tried to steal F2/F3 contract from Mecachrome.

[taran]

BRG, on 01 Oct 2024 - 16:20, said:

The Cadillac CT4 is sold in China with a 1.5 litre turbo engine, so....

 

Not sure about any Ferraris with 1.6 litre turbos?

 

Ferrari offered the 208GT4, 208 GTB and 208 GTS with a 2.0 litre turbo in Italy (for tax reasons).

So small displacement turbos is not unknown ground for Ferrari.
 

[guiporsche]

BRG, on 02 Oct 2024 - 09:00, said:

The irony is that if those protesting at Viry had done a better job of building F1 engines, they would still be working on F1 engines.  Karma....or should that be Carma?

 

If they had been given the same means as Mercedes, Ferrari, and Honda, maybe they would have had. 

[pdac]

guiporsche, on 02 Oct 2024 - 12:51, said:

If they had been given the same means as Mercedes, Ferrari, and Honda, maybe they would have had. 

 

If you can't compete with your competitors because you can't match their resources, then don't bother competing.

[Clatter]

BRG, on 02 Oct 2024 - 09:00, said:

The irony is that if those protesting at Viry had done a better job of building F1 engines, they would still be working on F1 engines. Karma....or should that be Carma?

Are the ones protesting the ones that design the PU, or the ones that bolt all the parts together, or do the jobs that have no direct contact, but are essential to running a business?

[Clatter]

guiporsche, on 02 Oct 2024 - 12:51, said:

If they had been given the same means as Mercedes, Ferrari, and Honda, maybe they would have had.

Difficult to have sympathy when they were one of the teams that were most in favour of the change to turbo hybrid.

[BRG]

Clatter, on 03 Oct 2024 - 10:27, said:

Are the ones protesting the ones that design the PU, or the ones that bolt all the parts together, or do the jobs that have no direct contact, but are essential to running a business?

Yes, probably.

[Nathan]

De Meo...

 

"Engine building costs are between $200 to $250 million per year, in addition to an operating budget of $150 million."  Mercedes is taking a $540-690 million p.a. bath on customer engines each year? And is looking to add a 4th? I don't think so.

[onemoresolo]

Nathan, on 04 Oct 2024 - 15:10, said:

De Meo...

 

"Engine building costs are between $200 to $250 million per year, in addition to an operating budget of $150 million."  Mercedes is taking a $540-690 million p.a. bath on customer engines each year? And is looking to add a 4th? I don't think so.

 

That's not how scalability works. Whether you build 100 engines or 1, the same amount of R&D and numerous other costs are required. The more you produce, the more those fixed costs are spread and the less each engine costs in it's own right.

 

All the manufacturers will be making a profit in absolute terms from their customer teams and that offsets their ongoing R&D costs.

[sterlingfan2000]

https://www.reuters....024-10-04/?s=09

Well it sounds like they're really not selling. Why would they? It doesn't make sense

[rootten]

Viry engineer said that their current engine is lacking only 10HP and that their 2026 engine looked very promising: https://www.eurospor...418/story.shtml

[pdac]

rootten, on 04 Oct 2024 - 17:06, said:

Viry engineer said that their current engine is lacking only 10HP and that their 2026 engine looked very promising: https://www.eurospor...418/story.shtml

 

Well they would, wouldn't they.

 

Academic, anyway, given that no one will be using it.

Edited by pdac, 04 October 2024 - 17:50.