17 replies to this topic

[juicy sushi]

Hi everyone,

 

So, there are older threads lurking out there about previous attempts by Indycar at replacing the DW12.  Some deal with the chassis, some deal with the powertrain, but all ended in nothingness because of well, reasons.

 

But (!!!) now there is a new effort afoot to introduce a new car in 2027 by Indycar's management, which means we should give it a thread of its own to talk about what we know, and what we don't know.  

 

The first real inklings of Indycar having actual plans for a new car came in late February 2024, when Marshall Pruett had an article in Racer discussing 2027 engine options:  https://racer.com/20...engine-formula/

 

At that point, there was little on the new chassis side.  Mention of new parts blended with old parts, but nothing spectacular.  Very affordable, not very inspiring.

 

Around Indy, we got a bit of news about the engines potentially being the same ones as now, but spec, to try to meet Honda halfway on their cost concerns, without actually doing anything substantial:  https://racer.com/20...ing-into-focus/

 

We also got some rumours about a new tub, if for no other reason that better accommodation of the batteries for the hybrid, but with significant parts carryover:  https://racer.com/20...hassis-options/

 

And then on December 10, 2024 we got reports that drawings were shown to the team owners by Indycar.  And the owners rejected them out of hand:  https://racer.com/20...ed-2027-design/

 

We have not seen these drawings, but disgruntled team owners described them as "current Indycar with the new F2 rear wing."  (-_-)

 

Someone then whipped out their phone, googled "Gran Turismo Adrian Newey", and slid it across the desk in response. 

 

And so now we have reached the point where the series suggests this:

 

 

plus 

 

 

And the team owners say they want the series to grow a pair and try something like this:

 

 

Chip is saying that the form needs to follow the function and everyone needs to figure out what they want out of this new Indycar before caring about what it looks like.  Such as crucial details like if people want to consume their new Dallara chassis nasally.  Zak is saying he can throw the McLaren Automotive styling team at this if need be (which is actually a pretty good idea), and others are just saying Indycar needs to really be ambitious with the looks if it wants people to care.

 

Edited by juicy sushi, Today, 16:11.

[LolaB0860]

All I want is a new non-spec chassis formula that uses technology from current decade

Edited by LolaB0860, Today, 16:15.

[OvDrone]

'bout damn time.

[PayasYouRace]

Thanks for the summary.

That F2 wing is one of the worst things I’ve ever seen.

Really I don’t know what I want from a new Indycar. I’ve reached the point where nothing will ever beat a 90s Champ Car to my eyes. I hope it’ll be something cool and exciting looking through.

What I do want to see is a bit of competition. If not on track then at least for the supply itself. Dallas’s monopoly on single-seater chassis outside F1 makes me sick.

[Vielleicht]

Chip is saying that the form needs to follow the function and everyone needs to figure out what they want out of this new Indycar before caring about what it looks like.  

This seems like the right approach. 

[pacificquay]

It's baffling that F2 and SuperFormula where budgets are lower can get a new car every 3 years whereas IndyCar teams would supposedly be bankrupted if they couldn't keep the same one for 15 years.

[pup]

The Newey design is far beyond the point where open wheel is more a technicality than a basis of the design.  If you go that far, then just be honest and design yourself an LMP car and be done with it.  

 

How long has it been since I've advocated for the old Pininfarina Sigma as a basis for an open wheel series?  Seems like ages, but it's still a hill I'd die on.  

Edited by pup, Today, 16:58.

[H0R]

Deltawing or bust!

[juicy sushi]

It's baffling that F2 and SuperFormula where budgets are lower can get a new car every 3 years whereas IndyCar teams would supposedly be bankrupted if they couldn't keep the same one for 15 years.

The economics are quite different for each series.  F2 is entirely ride buyers, so the price of a brick is the price of a brick.  Super Formula should be similar, but most teams are subsidized off-shoots of Super GT teams, so I think their money issues are different.  At the end of the day, it has mostly been about will power.  There could have been a new car when the aeroscreen or the hybrid were introduced.  The costs were essentially on that level anyway.  But the decision to not rip the band-aid off was taken instead.  To the series detriment.

[JHSingo]

At the end of the day, it has mostly been about will power.

 

This series has always been about Will Power. 

 

[red stick]

Deltawing or bust!

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[red stick]

Nice summary, but you left out this critical part from the most recent RACER story, which seems to be the crux of the problem and the genesis of the revolt, such as it is.

 

 

Penske Entertainment is considering an approach to its next-generation IndyCar where it would carry over as many of the DW12’s mechanical components as possible to reduce costs — from suspension, to ancillaries beneath the sidepods, to some drivetrain items.

This would paint the next car into a bearing a similar likeness to the current car due to the attachment points for those items needing to be the same. It could also account for the rendering being portrayed as having visual cues that are very familiar to the DW12.

 

https://racer.com/20...ed-2027-design/ (emphasis added)

[juicy sushi]

Yeah, that seemed to be a continuation of their previous thoughts that I mentioned further up, so I didn't include it.  But I think that's the break point.  Many team owners are willing to accept they will need to forgo the DW12 parts reserve in order to get something which sells better.  Penske thinks that isn't necessary.  We will see who is right.

[loki]

[PayasYouRace]

Nice summary, but you left out this critical part from the most recent RACER story, which seems to be the crux of the problem and the genesis of the revolt, such as it is.

 

 

https://racer.com/20...ed-2027-design/ (emphasis added)

There’s a lot that you can do around similar attachment points.

[red stick]

There’s a lot that you can do around similar attachment points.

Technically true, albeit with limitations?  Certainly.

Not exactly what several team owners seem to have desired, evidently because of those limitations?  Also, almost certainly.  

[Risil]

Chip is right. The new car tender should be in support of what the series wants to be in 10 years' time, where it wants to race, who it wants to compete, who it wants to watch.

(If Indycar management doesn't know that, the best race car in the world won't help them.)

[LolaB0860]

Lola is back in business and is looking at different markets. Hell even Onroak/Ligier is building open wheelers. Why can't we have these different cars back together instead of another 45 years of spec Dallaras. That's why everything gets so stale. F1 is the only constructors championship left in the world (I don't count Formula E since those are really spec chassis too) and people wonder why the other series can't advance further.

Edited by LolaB0860, Today, 21:04.