24 replies to this topic

[Dunc]

In 2025, Lewis Hamilton will turn 40 and Fernando Alonso will turn 44. For a millennial like me, it's going to be something new to have two of the most high-profile drivers being over 40. To me, it seems surprising that we haven't had more top-rated drivers race into their 40s, given advances in fitness, training, nutrition etc this century. What's especially interesting is that both are still competitive and taken very seriously by the rest of the grid. 

 

For those who can remember other greats who raced in F1 into their 40s (off the top of my head I can think of Fangio, Trintignant, Brabham, Graham Hill, Regazzoni, Andretti and Mansell), what has been the reputation of drivers who do this? Impressive or kind of sad? 

[Ray Bell]

Interesting question...

 

Not F1, but it reminds me of the questioning I did of several V8 Supercar drivers some years ago for a potential story.

 

Pretty much universally they said they were quicker now than ever, and these drivers were either nudging 50 or in their fifties. Top drivers, all of them.

 

What they mentioned, however, was that they were taking less of their speed out of themselves and achieving what they were by getting more out of the car, that is making the car work mor efficiently.

 

One thing I think all of them were doing that they didn't do so much in their early years was working out, putting in time with body-building machinery etc. And while I doubt that the likes of Peter Brock and Colin Bond ever did much of this at all early in their careers, there's no doubt that their (much) younger competition were no strangers to the gym.

[messy]

So persionally I've always believed that it's not really a question of physical decline in a driver. Not primarily, anyway. It's a mindset thing, that any driver after 10-15 years of driving in F1 - of the constant travelling, PR duties, commitment to training, politics, pressure and sacrifices made to stay at that level - will get sick of it, even subsconsciously. Especially given that as you get older you'll probably need to train harder, rather than less. So whether they make their debut at 17 or 27, they'll probably begin to lose that complete focus at a similar time and potentially a driver who debuts aged 32 (thinking Damon Hill) will hit that point at a later age than someone like Max Verstappen, who is only 27 but already maybe starting to consider life after F1. There's absolutely no way I expect Max to continue into his late thirties, no chance at all. 

 

Complicating that however is the stigma about 'older' drivers meaning that even if they're still completely focused, fit and hungry to keep going with no decline in their ability, they'll often still find themselves off the grid because they're just not a fashionable hiring unless they're a Hamilton or an Alonso. See Valtteri Bottas. 

 

What I think keeps Alonso and Hamilton going is that they're quirky characters who probably don't carry a lot of the off-track baggage most drivers by their mid thirties do. So they can somehow stay completely fixated on success in F1 and can just keep going and going. Also, I feel like that sabattical Alonso took probably made a big difference, as it did for Kimi and Hulkenberg. 

 

Look at Indycar or NASCAR where there's a slightly different atmosphere in the paddock and maybe less intensity around the level of commitment required to compete (and less stigma around age) - drivers regularly keep going, and keep winning, well into their forties and look every bit as good as they did in their mid twenties. Physically and taking aside the issue of stigma/fashion, I have no doubt that someone like Nico Rosberg, Mark Webber, Jenson Button or Seb Vettel could still be out there competing - if they really wanted to and of they were prepared to still make all the sacrifices required. But they're human beings. 

[absinthedude]

Recently F1 has been through a period where nobody has continued into their 40s until Schumacher and then Raikkonen decided to. Whereas up to the early 90s it wasn't uncommon. Though Mansell is still the last to win a grand prix over the age of 40. 

 

In the 50s and before, it's likely that fitness levels simply weren't what they are now. Endurance was a thing because races were often much longer than today. But you didn't have gyms, special diets, fitness gurus and so on. The cars, while heavy to drive without a whiff of power steering, also had no downforce and little grip from the tyres. As cars evolved, so drivers needed to become stronger in certain areas. Lauda in his 80s comeback was one of the first to take fitness seriously. Mansell took things up a level for 1992 and then Schumacher took it further still. 

F1 also became more professional with testing every week during the season, and often during the off season. Drivers were physically and mentally drained. Safety meant that long careers were certainly very feasible but a lot of drivers still decided to retire from F1 in their late 30s and either enjoy their retirement or race elsewhere. IndyCar, being less physically and mentally hard, had several top drivers winning in their 40s and AJ Foyt was hardly uncompetitive on ovals into his mid 50s. Emmo was fully competitive right to the crash that ended his topline career in his late 40s. Guys like Rick Mears, Mario Andretti, Al Unser Sr, Johnny Rutherford and so on continued to race competitively well into "elder statesman" territory. Indeed former FIA president Jean-Marie Balestre once dismissed the Indy 500 as "a veterans race".

 

Now it seems that some of the top F1 drivers are looking to have extra long careers again. Schumacher was the very first to have 20 years between his first and last grand prix. It's entirely possible that Alonso will be the first to have 20 years between his first and last victory. If not, then it'll probably be Hamilton. 

 

I think it's a combination of the full on pressure of F1 and the physical demands. A lot of drivers, while physically capable of continuing, just decide they want out of the pressure cooker after 10-15 years. It's worth noting that ALonso, Kimi and Michael took time out of F1...whether voluntary or not it permitted them time to recharge a bit. Hamilton hasn't had that luxury but it can certainly be argued that 2021/22 seasons he wasn't performing at his best. 

Edited by absinthedude, 20 January 2025 - 15:14.

[D28]

 

For those who can remember other greats who raced in F1 into their 40s (off the top of my head I can think of Fangio, Trintignant, Brabham, Graham Hill, Regazzoni, Andretti and Mansell), what has been the reputation of drivers who do this? Impressive or kind of sad? 

It all depends on the results, which is pretty easy to gauge in motor racing as that is the whole purpose. In the case of Jack Brabham in 1970 he was absolutely at the top of his game, as quick as he ever was. Save for a very rare miscue and a mistake from his mechanics on fuel mixture, he would have won 3 GPs in his final year, rather than the 1. In his last GP at Mexico he had resigned himself to 3rd, behind the 2 Ferraris when his engine blew, and that was it for his a very impressive racing career.

 

Later he admitted to retiring because of family pressure, and commented that he regretted it, thinking he had a few more years in the tank.

[WINO]

As for the regular fitness levels in the fifties not being what they are today, there were those little pills that Fangio, Moss, etc. swallowed to compensate for that.

[Risil]

It's entirely possible that Alonso will be the first to have 20 years between his first and last victory.

 

It's entirely possible that Alonso will be the first to have 20 years between his last and next victory. But that's more of a Racing Comments comment...

[Dunc]

It all depends on the results, which is pretty easy to gauge in motor racing as that is the whole purpose. In the case of Jack Brabham in 1970 he was absolutely at the top of his game, as quick as he ever was. Save for a very rare miscue and a mistake from his mechanics on fuel mixture, he would have won 3 GPs in his final year, rather than the 1. In his last GP at Mexico he had resigned himself to 3rd, behind the 2 Ferraris when his engine blew, and that was it for his a very impressive racing career.

 

Later he admitted to retiring because of family pressure, and commented that he regretted it, thinking he had a few more years in the tank.

 

What was the take on Graham Hill at that time? He was a similar vintage to Brabham and had been the WDC not that long before but his 70s F1 career does seem to be one of pretty sad post-accident decline considering the heights he had been to.

[10kDA]

Passing judgement on a driver's decision to continue at the level of their own choosing is pointless. A factor that seems to encourage contemporary pointing and clucking is the circumstance within F1, such as it is, that mandates a finite number of available seats. It's possible this is the case now with IndyCar and NASCAR as well, I couldn't say as I have not read the rules regarding "charters" etc. In any event, as long as a driver feels the urge, why not? Judgement by others should be an inconequential factor in the decision. That being said, a friend who followed NASCAR in depth and had insider information told me Curtis Turner's opportunities faded away because team owners were not willing to give him the ride that might have ended in his death, in their car. So there's that.

[Doug Nye]

What was the take on Graham Hill at that time? He was a similar vintage to Brabham and had been the WDC not that long before but his 70s F1 career does seem to be one of pretty sad post-accident decline considering the heights he had been to.

 

Jack Brabham was three years older than Graham. Rather sniffily by some neither was rated in the Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart mould so far as natural talent was concerned.  My belief is that Jack was more gifted in that respect than Graham but it's arguable.  Jack's great attributes were phenomenally acute eyesight and technical understanding by which he instinctively adapted his driving.  Graham's great attributes were a phenomenally competitive nature combined with a realism which recognised his 'probable' deficit of natural gifts and compensated for that with sheer commitment, stamina and determination.  

 

Don't make the error common these days of judging frontline drivers solely by their Formula 1 records.  

 

Mario Andretti might have been the most versatile frontline star of them all, but the likes of Moss and Graham were surely right there before him. Brabham was more single-seater centric, but that was more by happenstance and choice than capability - ditto Clark and Stewart.  One can add many rated drivers to the list - but as all-rounders Moss was stupendous, and Graham not really that far behind him.  While he might have been in decline in F1 terms from mid-1969 onward, don't overlook his Le Mans win - on merit - in 1972, nor his F1 International Trophy win (admittedly with luck on his side) in 1971.  In period he was highly respected, and generally well liked...though in anger he could be a thoroughly nasty piece of work...

 

DCN 

[Collombin]

Pescarolo was famously unhappy about being teamed with Hill for Le Mans in 1972. In his recent interview in Automobilsport he describes Hill as the best teammate he ever had.

Edited by Collombin, 20 January 2025 - 21:12.

[Vitesse2]

Can I just mention Scott Dixon here? He's one year and seven days older than Alonso, and while he's never been in F1 I'd argue he's the nearest thing to a modern-day Moss, given that he still competes at the highest level in IndyCar and sports cars.

[Bob Riebe]

More mature drivrers, personally I think one reason is -- Been there, Done that  -- sets in.

 

I remembe Andretti , in his later years, was just average most places , BUT, when he got to Indy, the Andretti of old showed up, as that was still some thing he REALLY wanted to get a second win at.

[Tom Glowacki]

A look at any starting grid of the 1950's and 1960's would show that relatively few of the drivers ever saw their 40th birthday.

[chr1s]

Also, back then drivers tended to get to Formula one later, in their mid to late twenties or early thirties, so it was not uncommon for them to race into their early forties.

        But one of the consequences of this new generation of teenage drivers racing into their forties is that they're locking out competitive seats for a decade or more!  Verstappen, for example has already been at Red Bull for eight years! And could potentially be there for another fifteen! Hamilton has been in Formula one since 2007 and shows no sign of leaving anytime soon. So the next two generations of Verstappens, Hamiltons or Alonsos may never get to sit in a competitive car!

[Doug Nye]

Very good point re current drivers' longevity and effective bed blocking.  Mr E - no less - once told the late Adrian Hamilton and me, only half in jest, "Too many drivers today are hanging around too long.  We just don't kill 'em off as often as we used to...".

 

DCN

[Glengavel]

As for the regular fitness levels in the fifties not being what they are today, there were those little pills that Fangio, Moss, etc. swallowed to compensate for that.

 

They were to help them stay awake on long-distance events. I don't think they would compensate for lack of fitness.

 

Grands Prix back in their day were marathon events, lasting up to three hours. Drivers would have to be pretty fit, or at least have the stamina, to last the distance. 

[absinthedude]

It's entirely possible that Alonso will be the first to have 20 years between his last and next victory. But that's more of a Racing Comments comment...

 

May I ask if there's a reason why you picked this one line from my multiple paragraph post? 

[absinthedude]

Very good point re current drivers' longevity and effective bed blocking.  Mr E - no less - once told the late Adrian Hamilton and me, only half in jest, "Too many drivers today are hanging around too long.  We just don't kill 'em off as often as we used to...".

 

DCN

 

Didn't he refer to it as "natural culling"?

 

Brutal words but not incorrect.

[Risil]

May I ask if there's a reason why you picked this one line from my multiple paragraph post?

Because I thought it was funny. I only have minor insignificant quibbles about the rest.

I also should note that as late as 1986 Jacques Laffite was having one of the best seasons of his career aged 42 in a Ligier, before it came to a premature end at Brands Hatch. I do think there was something about the mental and physical demands of 1990s-2000s F1 (and who knows, perhaps the prejudices of team bosses as well) that made it a young man's game.

[Collombin]

Grands Prix back in their day were marathon events, lasting up to three hours

Indeed, and for the few world championship races scheduled for duration rather than distance the three hour rule in those days was a minimum!

[ian senior]

F1 careers are so long these days, presumably because most drivers are plonked on a kart about 5 minutes after they drop from the womb, it’s no surprise that “bed blocking” is a problem- especially as there are now only around 20 cars in each Grand Prix. I wonder if they should introduce a rule to say that a driver should take a 2-year sabbatical after he has started, say, 200 races. Given the number of races we have these days, it wouldn’t take too long a time to reach that number, and there might be a chance that new talent could get a break.

[garoidb]

Very good point re current drivers' longevity and effective bed blocking.  Mr E - no less - once told the late Adrian Hamilton and me, only half in jest, "Too many drivers today are hanging around too long.  We just don't kill 'em off as often as we used to...".

 

DCN

 

Of course, alongside the direct effects of the tragic accidents themselves, an eye to self preservation would contribute to many unforced retirements . 

Edited by garoidb, Yesterday, 17:59.

[Doug Nye]

As exemplified by Tony Brooks of course - a gifted driver who was always far too intelligent and thoughtful ever to have decided to become a racing driver.

 

DCN

[Lee Nicolle]

Mike Wallace, brother of Rusty  and Kenny was going to run at Daytona this year. Nascar have knocked him back because he has not done much racing in recent years. AND he is 65 y/o. Not the oldest driver by any circumstances. Evidently he had asked all the questions ad was told it would be ok, until last week.