610 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Red Bull should run the RB21 for Verstappen and the VCARB02 for Lawson. Shame about the customer car rules.

[Risil]

George Costanza, on 22 Mar 2025 - 14:24, said:

The gap was huge in 1993-1997 when Schumacher was around. Especially in 1994. Very similar to Max and Liam now.

Jos Verstappen's record in the four(!) races he finished in 1994 was 8th, 3rd, 3rd, 5th. Different times now but that's not what Lawson is currently delivering.

That said, the mid-nineties Benettons with their infamously tricky handling are probably the closest parallel to what we're seeing at Red Bull.

[George Costanza]

Risil, on 22 Mar 2025 - 14:32, said:

Jos Verstappen's record in the four(!) races he finished in 1994 was 8th, 3rd, 3rd, 5th. Different times now but that's not what Lawson is currently delivering.

That said, the mid-nineties Benettons with their infamously tricky handling are probably the closest parallel to what we're seeing at Red Bull.

I agree with that for sure but Jos couldn't quite deliver what Michael was doing and quite frankly nobody else was doing that in Benetton from '94-'95. Red Bull is very similar actually when the car is at the extreme sharp level of handling, which takes a very talented driver to handle it....'95 was extremely nervous to drive and let alone win the championship with it.

Max did it last year and he's right there early on this season.

[JordanIreland]

Analog, on 22 Mar 2025 - 11:43, said:

How long before they do a Verstappen and Tsunoda switch? At the moment, the junior car seems better

I’m sure RedBull must be thinking of a test session to assess.

[ANF]

Lawson was making up places in the sprint race despite a damaged front wing, and I think he's kept the car on the track so far this weekend, so the situation could have been even worse! His qualifying pace is obviously not good enough though. The single practice session on an unfamiliar circuit probably didn't do him any favours... Anyway, I hope he will figure out why he's struggling and what he should do differently.

[Anderis]

Risil, on 22 Mar 2025 - 14:32, said:

Jos Verstappen's record in the four(!) races he finished in 1994 was 8th, 3rd, 3rd, 5th. Different times now but that's not what Lawson is currently delivering.

Very different times indeed. Very hard to compare team mate deficits across various eras. The gaps between the cars have shrunk a lot. Add the attrition and stuff and what mertis P18 today could have easily been P4 in a top car in the 90-ties. But the expectations towards the drivers have changed as well. It's much more competitive now and performances that would have been seen as solid 2nd tier driver level back in the day can now look embarassingly bad in certain circumstances.
 

[StevoCBR]

PayasYouRace, on 22 Mar 2025 - 13:25, said:

Same reasons it was done at Benetton, or Ferrari in the past. Some teams just care about the main driver.

Reminds me a bit of '86/'87 at Lotus too!

[Victor]

At this point I think that the second Red Bull is one of the worst seats in F1.

[lewislorenzo]

jonklug, on 22 Mar 2025 - 11:51, said:

Car is a dog.

It isn’t

George Costanza, on 22 Mar 2025 - 12:55, said:

Max can drive around any problem

Not understeer he hates that

Edited by lewislorenzo, 22 March 2025 - 15:31.

[George Costanza]

danmills, on 22 Mar 2025 - 11:52, said:

Often known as the 'Fisichella Conundrum'.

Perez probably had it too, absolute top level midfield driver with a ceiling maxed out in average cars, but in a top car he was slowest of the absolute best. Maybe add Bottas and arguably Sainz too.

Giancarlo wasn't that good and this is exactly what you refer to. I always rated Jarno Trulli better than Giancarlo. Giancarlo had very good cars in his career whereas Jarno never really did. Jarno in the 2005-2006 Renault would have been wonderful to watch in qualifying... Much faster than Giancarlo ever was.

Edited by George Costanza, 22 March 2025 - 15:35.

[George Costanza]

SenorSjon, on 22 Mar 2025 - 13:38, said:

The RB21 is the 1996 Benetton. But when the junior team is so close to Verstappen, the problem isn't Lawson.

The '96 car was very good but it just didn't have the drivers...

[smr]

Red Bull will be more eager than ever to win the WCC and know that they need two drivers consistently in the top 5. 

 

There are 25 races or so races in a season, we'll be a quarter of the way in not long from now whilst all of the other top teams are consistent with their driver pairing.

 

I'd be stunned if Red Bull give him half a season and he isn't consistently in the top 5. And even a quarter, so I reckon if he doesn't improve it'll be around race 5/6.

 

And I also think they will replace him with Yuki if he keeps on doing what he's doing.

 

I just have a slight feeling Liam might turn things around, we'll see..

[garoidb]

George Costanza, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:34, said:

The '96 car was very good but it just didn't have the drivers...

 

With the benefit of hindsight, and given that Michael had signed for Ferrari, who would have been the best choice of driver for Benetton for 1996? 

[renzmann]

JordanIreland, on 22 Mar 2025 - 14:55, said:

I’m sure RedBull must be thinking of a test session to assess.

Those test sessions might be part of the problem. In RBR's own drivers pool, they do not have a lot of options, which makes it a tough choice who to give the second RBR seat. Since no option is obvious, Horner likes his candidates to drive at Silverstone, preferably with Verstappen's laps as a contrast. While it sounds like a reasonable method, it made Lawson and Ricciardo look good.

[PlatenGlass]

Button4life, on 22 Mar 2025 - 10:24, said:

It’s a lot easier to look good in a slow car because the ceiling is much lower. Put Max in a racing bull and he will probably be max 2 tenths quicker than Yuki. Put Yuki in a Red Bull and Max will probably 4-5 tenths quicker.

This is why most drivers that perform decently in midfield cars usually perform badly in the best cars.

I don't think this is the case in general. The ceiling being "much lower" is just a few tenths of a second a lap for one thing and I don't think that's such a fundamental difference that means some people can drive quick cars and some can't.

I think it's a myth that faster cars are generally harder to drive. It's car specific and the Red Bull is clearly a very unforgiving car.

[jonklug]

lewislorenzo, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:28, said:

It isn’t

From a drivability standpoint it clearly is. From a performance standpoint, the best driver of his generation can barely finish on the podium with it. For RedBull standards that is a dog of a car.

[PlatenGlass]

garoidb, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:56, said:

With the benefit of hindsight, and given that Michael had signed for Ferrari, who would have been the best choice of driver for Benetton for 1996?

I think it's become a bit of an urban myth that the 1996 Benetton was actually a great car. How does anyone think they know?

Given how far off the pace Berger and Alesi were, it's hard to see Schumacher challenging the Williamses. And there is only one other driver on the 1996 grid who might arguably have done a significantly better job than Berger/Alesi (as opposed to a slightly better job) - Hakkinen. And it's not a foregone conclusion that he would. He was quite hit and miss himself.

[ensign14]

garoidb, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:56, said:

With the benefit of hindsight, and given that Michael had signed for Ferrari, who would have been the best choice of driver for Benetton for 1996? 

Prost.

[messy]

George Costanza, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:31, said:

Giancarlo wasn't that good and this is exactly what you refer to. I always rated Jarno Trulli better than Giancarlo. Giancarlo had very good cars in his career whereas Jarno never really did. Jarno in the 2005-2006 Renault would have been wonderful to watch in qualifying... Much faster than Giancarlo ever was.

Someone hold my beer.

[garoidb]

ensign14, on 22 Mar 2025 - 16:32, said:

Prost.

 

I didn't think of him but how about Mansell?

Edited by garoidb, 22 March 2025 - 16:36.

[FLB]

ensign14, on 22 Mar 2025 - 16:32, said:

Prost.

Yeah... but I don't think he would have gotten along well with Flavio.

[ensign14]

garoidb, on 22 Mar 2025 - 16:35, said:

I didn't think of him but how about Mansell?

Prost would have engineered the car better.  Mansell's brute strength was not as useful in 1996 with power steering and whatnot.

[garoidb]

ensign14, on 22 Mar 2025 - 16:41, said:

Prost would have engineered the car better.  Mansell's brute strength was not as useful in 1996 with power steering and whatnot.

 

True. Berger and Alesi probably were actually the best available choices, though. They were just a long way short of Michael.

[George Costanza]

garoidb, on 22 Mar 2025 - 16:49, said:

True. Berger and Alesi probably were actually the best available choices, though. They were just a long way short of Michael.

Correct... Nobody was on the level of Schu.

[George Costanza]

PlatenGlass, on 22 Mar 2025 - 16:22, said:

I think it's become a bit of an urban myth that the 1996 Benetton was actually a great car. How does anyone think they know?

Given how far off the pace Berger and Alesi were, it's hard to see Schumacher challenging the Williamses. And there is only one other driver on the 1996 grid who might arguably have done a significantly better job than Berger/Alesi (as opposed to a slightly better job) - Hakkinen. And it's not a foregone conclusion that he would. He was quite hit and miss himself.

Schumacher in '96 Benetton likely defends his championship. It was better than the '95 car as Ross Brawn said several times. The '95 was designed to fit the Renault engine and it was slightly compromised. '96 didn't have that issue.

And the Williams were in '95 were very fast and they had horrible strategy calls the entire '95 season., just that Damon wasn't as good as Michael. It is no coincidence that when Schumacher left for Ferrari, Damon went after his opportunity to win the championship.

Don't compare Jean and Berger to Michael because they were a way behind in overall speed and they couldn't drive the '95 car at all to the limit.

Edited by George Costanza, 22 March 2025 - 18:03.

[Brian60]

If Tsunoda finishes in front of him the next 2 races, I expect seats will be swapped as we have seen before - "to give him more experience without the pressure of the 1st team you understand."  I'm guessing this will be the line that Marko spins to the press.

[garoidb]

Brian60, on 22 Mar 2025 - 18:04, said:

If Tsunoda finishes in front of him the next 2 races, I expect seats will be swapped as we have seen before - "to give him more experience without the pressure of the 1st team you understand."  I'm guessing this will be the line that Marko spins to the press.

 

I just don't understand why Tsunoda would want that, or anyone would want it on his behalf. 

Edited by garoidb, 22 March 2025 - 18:11.

[messy]

I feel like if Lawson continues to qualify at the back of the field they’ll have to do something, and could see him being dumped entirely rather than demoted too. His relationship with Red Bull has always struck me as a bit of a marriage of convenience vs the time and resources and (relative) nurturing they have given their other drivers. It just so happened that his only realistic rival for the seat was someone they were even less bothered about promoting.

Is any of that fair in him? No, of course not. I feel like in the RB right now, with a full pre-season behind him, he might be doing pretty well. He didn’t do much in his second stint there last year, but it was always in the context of fighting to earn the Red Bull seat so is it any wonder? When he debuted in 2023 he showed potential, but the way Red Bull have used him since that hasn’t really allowed him to develop from there from what I can see. They’re trying to make him a suitable round peg for a round hole, a competent stopgap. He was the wrong choice and the way they still promoted him despite him not doing that well last year says to me that they’re not really bothered about letting him develop, they just want him to fill the gap in their lineup until someone better comes along who isn’t called Yuki Tsunoda.

[SenorSjon]

Risil, on 22 Mar 2025 - 14:29, said:

Red Bull should run the RB21 for Verstappen and the VCARB02 for Lawson. Shame about the customer car rules.

 

Or a VCarb for Verstappen and see where he brings it?

[PlatenGlass]

George Costanza, on 22 Mar 2025 - 17:58, said:

Schumacher in '96 Benetton likely defends his championship. It was better than the '95 car as Ross Brawn said several times. The '95 was designed to fit the Renault engine and it was slightly compromised. '96 didn't have that issue.

And the Williams were in '95 were very fast and they had horrible strategy calls the entire '95 season., just that Damon wasn't as good as Michael. It is no coincidence that when Schumacher left for Ferrari, Damon went after his opportunity to win the championship.

Don't compare Jean and Berger to Michael because they were a way behind in overall speed and they couldn't drive the '95 car at all to the limit.

But what does it mean for a car to be better? There would generally be improvements from one year to the next so it only makes sense from a relative perspective. Was the 1996 Benetton closer in pace to the 1996 Williams than the 1995 car was to the Williams? I'm not taking Ross Brawn's assertion that the 1996 Benetton was better than the 1995 car as anything approaching evidence for this.

The other point is that it has been said that in 1995 Herbert suffered because he was just there to drive the second car and was not able to have the car set up for him. That would not have applied to Berger and Alesi because there was no-one else. I think there's a limit to how much of the gap to the Williams Schumacher could have made up in the 1996 car.

[Laster]

I don't see them dumping Lawson entirely. They would need a driver to replace him with. Lindbald doesn't turn 18 until August, so he can't race in F1 yet. The only other driver they have to put in the car would be Iwasa.

Edited by Laster, 22 March 2025 - 18:57.

[Risil]

SenorSjon, on 22 Mar 2025 - 18:52, said:

Or a VCarb for Verstappen and see where he brings it?

Would be interesting but the accounts I've read say that the RB21 (like the 20) has a very narrow operating window but high potential if you have the magic touch. Last year the potential didn't seem as high as the McLaren's or under some conditions the Ferrari's or Merc's either, but it's probably higher than the less refined VCARB machine. Or so I hypothesize. Would be interesting to see it.

[jacdaniel]

It’s not even that the car is built for Max. Max himself complained last year that the car was impossible to drive. He’s said the same thing this year. He said today that Liam would be top 10 in the racing bulls.

Red Bull just have a really awful to drive car. A 4 time champion and generational talent with 10 years of F1 experience can handle it. A rookie cannot.

Edited by jacdaniel, 22 March 2025 - 19:34.

[JL14]

Lawson's Red Bull seat already at risk after disastrous start - The Race

 

There is no suggestion that Lawson is in danger of being dropped immediately if he does not shine in the Chinese GP on Sunday. However, it has emerged that the team views the next race in Japan in a fortnight as critical for it to decide where things go from there.

Lawson has faced a challenging set of circumstances with the season starting in Australia and China, at two circuits where he has not competed at in F1 before (he had never driven at Albert Park although he raced at Shanghai in Asian F3 back in September 2018).

But he is well-versed at Suzuka following his Super Formula campaign in 2023 and his AlphaTauri race there that season, in which he finished 11th, so the excuse of being a circuit novice will not stand up there.

Red Bull is baffled about why things have not clicked for Lawson, as there does not seem to be an obvious explanation for why things have been so bad.

For now, the team is publicly keeping a brave face on the situation - but its motorsport advisor Helmut Marko offered a clear hint that results would ultimately decide things.

Speaking to Sky Germany he said: "F1 is a performance sport and in the end that’s what counts."

[TomNokoe]

He knows Suzuka from SuperFormula and F1 in 2023. Hopefully stays dry and he gets three full practice sessions.

The terrible start might be a blessing in disguise because the expectation for him is now rock bottom. The only way is up?

[Sash1]

Red Bull should focus on a better car right now and not look for the next driver to f up his career in this pos car

[mclara]

jonklug, on 22 Mar 2025 - 16:22, said:

From a drivability standpoint it clearly is. From a performance standpoint, the best driver of his generation can barely finish on the podium with it. For RedBull standards that is a dog of a car.

 

Maybe RB such try and build a car that is easier to drive because maybe then MV can also get more out of the car?

[zeph]

Horner smugly announcing Lawson as the anointed one on DTS is deliciously ironic.

 

 

https://www.veed.io/...a9-53e5f0595883

[FirstnameLastname]

Jan Magnussen vibes

[P123]

mclara, on 22 Mar 2025 - 20:18, said:

Maybe RB such try and build a car that is easier to drive because maybe then MV can also get more out of the car?

 

Could be, as in is it worth chasing actual points rather than striving for brownie points for the acclaimed 'most difficult car to drive'?  All of the cars are difficult to drive, or have their certain quirks. If Red Bull is 4th quickest, then whatever they are trying to provide isn't quite working.  Development directions can throw things the way of one side of the garage, or the other.  We saw Perez have patches of good form then wildly fall off a cliff. Lawson was a bit off Tsunoda.  Even with a car he is happy with, he's not getting within touching distance of Max.  Whether Red Bull puts much engineering effort into worrying about the second car is open to question.  It wasn't too different when Vettel was sticking 7 tenths on Webber.   

[ClubmanGT]

I'm surprised Max has said what he said.

But I do think Lawson needs to going to RB with a plan and leading the change in direction to improve things. It's not something it looks like he can count on happening organically.

[Dutchrudder]

Could be that there is pace in the RBR that only Max can deliver due to it being an extremely difficult car to drive, while the VCARB may be a bit more user-friendly.

Can’t help but wonder if Max might be faster in the VCARB, I tend to think maybe not, but it is an easier car to drive. Who knows, though?

[Boxerevo]

He is ageing 5x faster.

[RPM40]

Dutchrudder, on 22 Mar 2025 - 21:03, said:

Could be that there is pace in the RBR that only Max can deliver due to it being an extremely difficult car to drive, while the VCARB may be a bit more user-friendly.

Can’t help but wonder if Max might be faster in the VCARB, I tend to think maybe not, but it is an easier car to drive. Who knows, though?

He might. Max was only a few tenths ahead of Hadjar. Would an experienced multi world champion be more than that? Potentially yes.

[ClubmanGT]

Dutchrudder, on 22 Mar 2025 - 21:03, said:

Could be that there is pace in the RBR that only Max can deliver due to it being an extremely difficult car to drive, while the VCARB may be a bit more user-friendly.

Can’t help but wonder if Max might be faster in the VCARB, I tend to think maybe not, but it is an easier car to drive. Who knows, though?

Hadjar being instantly on the pace suggests this is possible... mid-season chassis swap?

[ClubmanGT]

Boxerevo, on 22 Mar 2025 - 21:07, said:

He is ageing 5x faster.

Eight tenths in that goatee alone I reckon

[Zippel]

garoidb, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:56, said:

With the benefit of hindsight, and given that Michael had signed for Ferrari, who would have been the best choice of driver for Benetton for 1996? 

 

Barrichello and Frentzen to sought out the car. But having Berger back alongside Alesi made things worse as Berger was quite a shitstirrer so Alesi probably would been better with anyone but Berger alongside him.

 

 

George Costanza, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:31, said:

Giancarlo wasn't that good and this is exactly what you refer to. I always rated Jarno Trulli better than Giancarlo. Giancarlo had very good cars in his career whereas Jarno never really did. Jarno in the 2005-2006 Renault would have been wonderful to watch in qualifying... Much faster than Giancarlo ever was.

 

Yet they both had Button as a teammate over 2001 & 2002 in that same team and the result was very clear. Not to mention the mid season race results Trulli was having in 2004 which got him sacked in the first place.

 

Trulli had very good cars in 2005 and 2009 and for a driver who consistently had work engine cars at his disposal over the course of his career yet never finished better than 6th in a drivers championship is an incredibly damning stat.

 

 

 

Lawson is going to join the list of Australasian drivers ultimately treated like **** at Redbull.

Edited by Zippel, 22 March 2025 - 21:28.

[keeppari]

JL14, on 22 Mar 2025 - 19:47, said:

For now, the team is publicly keeping a brave face on the situation - but its motorsport advisor Helmut Marko offered a clear hint that results would ultimately decide things.
Speaking to Sky Germany he said: "F1 is a performance sport and in the end that’s what counts."

Unless you are a totally useless motorsport advisor of course in which case having achieved close to nothing in 20 years appears to be adequate performance.

[Boxerevo]

Lawson is in the worst situation possible, because where he will go if they drop him??

 

It seems like a adapt or die situation.

[Ferrim]

garoidb, on 22 Mar 2025 - 15:56, said:

With the benefit of hindsight, and given that Michael had signed for Ferrari, who would have been the best choice of driver for Benetton for 1996?

Villeneuve could have been interesting. He's much maligned these days, but the guy was brilliant on his heyday. Although I don't see how they handle the huge character transición between Schumacher and him.