1393 replies to this topic

[Marklar]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 15:13, said:

https://www.instagra...g_web_copy_link

Once again Lando was right about Max being the quickest in Jeddah

At no point Piastri had to push because it was known early that Max will get penalized so those stats are always pretty BS, and it saddens me how blindly fans just consume these stats without any added context these days. his win was never in danger despite Max being only 3 seconds behind after the pitstops. A clear indicator that at worst the cars were equal, more likely McLaren had a edge, judging by the season so far and Norris' clean air pace. If Max was quicker he would have chased Piastri within 1-2s just like the McLarens did in Suzuka.

Most likely it's the closest anyone has been to McLaren this season, but that's about it.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:06, said:

Well, you obviously do not understand the point I'm raising: If Piastri had braked earlier, which he would have needed to do if he intended to leave space for Max, then Max would also have braked earlier and could have stayed on track. Since the rule is about apex, he gambled that he'd beat Max to it. Max gambled that he himself would see it first. I have not seen every camera angle, but it cannot have been many centimeters that gave Oscar the right to the track. It could easily have gone the other way. So my point is: The way the rules are written, they encouraged both Piastri and Verstappen to go over the limit.

 

This. Proper tracks and rules that actually encourage drivers to leave space is the solution to our problem.

 

This "ahead at the apex" nonsense has to stop.

[zeph]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:06, said:

Well, you obviously do not understand the point I'm raising: If Piastri had braked earlier, which he would have needed to do if he intended to leave space for Max, then Max would also have braked earlier and could have stayed on track. Since the rule is about apex, he gambled that he'd beat Max to it. Max gambled that he himself would see it first. I have not seen every camera angle, but it cannot have been many centimeters that gave Oscar the right to the track. It could easily have gone the other way. So my point is: The way the rules are written, they encouraged both Piastri and Verstappen to go over the limit.

 

So I disagree with the notion that Piastri went over the limit. He had a better start, got there first, and had the inside line. He didn't have to brake earlier.

It's really not that complicated. 

 

Your argument strikes me as wanting to somehow find fault with both, or with the rules, either way reducing culpability on Verstappen's part. 

 

To me, it looks simple. Verstappen hates to lose out, and it causes lapses of judgment, which I think is all this was. 

Edited by zeph, 21 April 2025 - 18:27.

[Autodromo]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:06, said:

Well, you obviously do not understand the point I'm raising: If Piastri had braked earlier, which he would have needed to do if he intended to leave space for Max, then Max would also have braked earlier and could have stayed on track. Since the rule is about apex, he gambled that he'd beat Max to it. Max gambled that he himself would see it first. I have not seen every camera angle, but it cannot have been many centimeters that gave Oscar the right to the track. It could easily have gone the other way. So my point is: The way the rules are written, they encouraged both Piastri and Verstappen to go over the limit.

Just look at what Kimi did.  He went in hot, was actually nominally ahead at the apex but because of coming in hot, then took about the same line as Max, then moved behind Charles.  That's what Max should have done.  I don't blame Max for cutting the chicane and Oscar seemed to be turning as tightly as he could on the racing line, but then Max took off and did not give the place back.  Therefore he gained an advantage.  Perhaps there should be a giant bump in the run-off area or a specific exit spot they have to hit that will slow them down, but that is just to force the loss.  Max should have done it himself.  

[Mc_Silver]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 15:16, said:

I don't think that was ever in doubt. But was his car the quickest?

Getting pole and having the quickest race pace speak for themselves.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 21 April 2025 - 18:46.

[MikeTekRacing]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:45, said:

Getting pole and having the quickest race pace speak for themselves.

So if he races an f3 and you race a mclaren, he gets pole and wins that means the f3 is the faster car?

[Mc_Silver]

MikeTekRacing, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:54, said:

So if he races an f3 and you race a mclaren, he gets pole and wins that means the f3 is the faster car?

Yes should be the answer for such a logical question.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 21 April 2025 - 19:04.

[JimmyClark]

I just watched the race... Not too memorable, but not Suzuka at least.

I can't get my head around Lawson's 10s penalty though? He seemed well ahead by the time he missed the corner, but even so if Max got 5s surely the penalties should be applied the same? Or am I missing something in my jetlagged state?

[MinardiM02]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:45, said:

Getting pole and having the quickest race pace speak for themselves.

Max was probably the fastest out there; he nearly always is. His car wasn't however as admitted by him AND his rival.

[Mc_Silver]

MinardiM02, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:05, said:

Max was probably the fastest out there; he nearly always is. His car wasn't however as admitted by him AND his rival.

Same old. When McLaren or other team drivers win its all because they have dominant cars but when Max wins it's all because Max and his magical drive isn't it?

Edited by Mc_Silver, 21 April 2025 - 19:08.

[noikeee]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:07, said:

Same old. When McLaren or other team drivers win its all because they have dominant cars but when Max wins it's all because Max and his magical drive isn't it?

He's consistently been putting 5 tenths to 1 full second on every single teammate for a very long time, so what you're sarcastically implying actually seems to be pretty realistic. It's not "magic", but bloke is faster than everyone else.

[zeph]

noikeee, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:09, said:

He's consistently been putting 5 tenths to 1 full second on every single teammate for a very long time, so what you're sarcastically implying actually seems to be pretty realistic. It's not "magic", but bloke is faster than everyone else.

 

Or at least faster than his teammates, is all we can say for sure. 

[garoidb]

zeph, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:14, said:

Or at least faster than his teammates, is all we can say for sure. 

 

Deny, deny, deny.

[krea]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:07, said:

Same old. When McLaren or other team drivers win its all because they have dominant cars but when Max wins it's all because Max and his magical drive isn't it?

Unlike other drivers he can admit just fine when he has the best car.

[Mc_Silver]

noikeee, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:09, said:

He's consistently been putting 5 tenths to 1 full second on every single teammate for a very long time, so what you're sarcastically implying actually seems to be pretty realistic. It's not "magic", but bloke is faster than everyone else.

Max never had a competitive team mate since Riccardo who beat him in 2016 and 2017.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 21 April 2025 - 19:23.

[Eyeshield]

noikeee, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:09, said:

He's consistently been putting 5 tenths to 1 full second on every single teammate for a very long time, so what you're sarcastically implying actually seems to be pretty realistic. It's not "magic", but bloke is faster than everyone else.

There's a very good reason why every time the possibility of pairing Max with another fast driver is brought up Horner is quick to dismiss the idea. After all, it is public knowledge that Red Bull are willing to do anything to appease Max, including pairing him with b-grade / inexperienced drivers and building a car that solely suits his driving style.

[Jackattack]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:21, said:

Max never had a competitive team mate since Riccardo who beat him in 2016 and 2017.

Considering that 25% of the current grid have been his teammate and been destroyed by him, I’m not sure what you think that says for F1….

[MikeTekRacing]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:03, said:

Yes should be the answer for such a logical question.

That’s the problem with your logic
Max gets pole with a car - it means the car is the fastest. No, it could very well mean Max is faster than his rival by a bigger margin.
That would require the open mind to accept what almost everyone sees. That he is head and shoulders above his rivals

[TheAviator]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:07, said:

Same old. When McLaren or other team drivers win its all because they have dominant cars but when Max wins it's all because Max and his magical drive isn't it?

Mclaren drivers havent proven they are on Max level. In fact, up until they proved opposite is true (as expected tbh)

[FortiFord]

Gravelngrass, on 21 Apr 2025 - 14:01, said:

Yes, the penalty should be to give back the position.

That’s not an available penalty for the stewards (and I can see why).

[TheAviator]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:21, said:

Max never had a competitive team mate since Riccardo who beat him in 2016 and 2017.

Lmao at Ricciardo beating Max in 2017…

[Analog]

zeph, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:26, said:

So I disagree with the notion that Piastri went over the limit. He had a better start, got there first, and had the inside line. He didn't have to brake earlier.

It's really not that complicated. 

 

Your argument strikes me as wanting to somehow find fault with both, or with the rules, either way reducing culpability on Verstappen's part. 

 

To me, it looks simple. Verstappen hates to lose out, and it causes lapses of judgment, which I think is all this was. 

Sigh... 

[Yoshi]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:21, said:

Max never had a competitive team mate since Riccardo who beat him in 2016 and 2017.

I'm using this opportunity to ask something that’s been on my mind. Why do people often bring up that Driver A beat Driver B in Season XY—especially when it was several years ago?
What’s the point? Drivers gain more experience and often evolve into better competitors over time.

Maybe I’m missing something here, and someone can explain it to me?

[jacdaniel]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:07, said:

Same old. When McLaren or other team drivers win its all because they have dominant cars but when Max wins it's all because Max and his magical drive isn't it?

Well he does have 27 race wins in non WCC winning cars. (Up to the end of 24) Leclerc also has an impressive bunch of wins.
But for the likes of Norris, he wasn’t able to get a win until he had a WCC car

[zeph]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:52, said:

Sigh... 

Always a great argument!

[Mc_Silver]

https://youtu.be/IxncpTwu9GM

[OvDrone]

The most egregious thing to me was Horner getting all smug with a printed out screenshot from the onboard camera. 

Next thing he'll call up Perez to do a live simulation of the incident at Silverstone. Desperate and pathetic.

[jacdaniel]

Yoshi, on 21 Apr 2025 - 20:02, said:

I'm using this opportunity to ask something that’s been on my mind. Why do people often bring up that Driver A beat Driver B in Season XY—especially when it was several years ago?
What’s the point? Drivers gain more experience and often evolve into better competitors over time.

Maybe I’m missing something here, and someone can explain it to me?

Well it definitely makes no sense to compare prime Daniel Ricciardo vs 18 year old Max Verstappen.

But even if you wanted to, while Ricciardo scored more points, it was already obvious that Max was faster and out qualified him comfortably.

And as history shows, one would end up a 4 time champion while one would end up back at the junior team and getting beaten.

[Hillen]

PrinceBira, on 21 Apr 2025 - 17:54, said:

Depends on who is being ‘dishonest’.

I don’t recall such a fierce debate when Norris dishonestly claimed Verstappen pushed him off track at pit exit Suzuka.

Feels like whataboutism to evade what I said.

[MinardiM02]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:07, said:

Same old. When McLaren or other team drivers win its all because they have dominant cars but when Max wins it's all because Max and his magical drive isn't it?

Haha its the exact opposite. Max does well? RoCkEtShIp! Dominantest car in history! His teammates suck! Car is build around him! FIA Golden Boy!
McLaren does well? See? Max sux! His car CAN't be slower! Even if the actual McLaren team admits it is. It must be because his car suddenly got good.

[Gravelngrass]

FortiFord, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:30, said:

That’s not an available penalty for the stewards (and I can see why).

Why not?
Why?

[MinardiM02]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:21, said:

Max never had a competitive team mate since Riccardo who beat him in 2016 and 2017.

Max easily handled Ricciardo in 2017 but consistently got mechanical DNF's in front of him. In fact, I'd say its one of his best seasons. 2016 is a joke. He had to jump in the car half way (and won his first race with the team).

Unlike Lando, for example, who, with tons of racing experience, got handled by the Sainz 2 seasons in a row. The same Sainz that Max beat at age 17 with 1 season of open wheel racing before joining f1.

[PrinceBira]

Gravelngrass, on 21 Apr 2025 - 20:25, said:

Why not?
Why?

Up to 2021 it used to be available. The Race Director could give drivers the option to give back a place in order for the Stewards not to get involved.

In the end it resulted in super weird negotiating practices between teams and RD, so this practice was scrapped.

[FortiFord]

PrinceBira, on 21 Apr 2025 - 20:34, said:

Up to 2021 it used to be available. The Race Director could give drivers the option to give back a place in order for the Stewards not to get involved.

In the end it resulted in super weird negotiating practices between teams and RD, so this practice was scrapped.

Correct, though it was never available to the stewards.

[PrinceBira]

Yoshi, on 21 Apr 2025 - 20:02, said:

I'm using this opportunity to ask something that’s been on my mind. Why do people often bring up that Driver A beat Driver B in Season XY—especially when it was several years ago?
What’s the point? Drivers gain more experience and often evolve into better competitors over time.

Maybe I’m missing something here, and someone can explain it to me?

Because people like to make a ranking in their head, kind of assuming performance of drivers is eternally stable.

But it never works like that like you say. Young drivers get better (just look at Piastri this year compared to his first year or even last year). Tech regulations change, certain teams suit drivers better, tires change, drivers get older etc etc.

Just look at Sainz vs Albon. Pretty damn close this year, but Albon got pretty much destroyed by Verstappen whereas Sainz as teammate was close.

[FortiFord]

Gravelngrass, on 21 Apr 2025 - 20:25, said:

Why not?
Why?

The same reason why a football referee can’t decide what the final score of a match should be.

[Boxerevo]

MikeTekRacing, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:25, said:

That would require the open mind to accept what almost everyone sees. That he is head and shoulders above his rivals

That he is the best, is hard to question now after all his deeds in this era.

 

But that he is so "head and shoulders ahead"... it didn't look like that at the start of this race. Was beat fair and square.

Edited by Boxerevo, 21 April 2025 - 20:46.

[zeph]

garoidb, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:16, said:

Deny, deny, deny.

 

I have no problem acknowledging Verstappen is most likely the fastest guy on the grid today.

 

I do question any absolute statements to that effect. It is always a combination of driver, car and team.

[Celloman]

Hellenic tifosi, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:17, said:

This. Proper tracks and rules that actually encourage drivers to leave space is the solution to our problem.

 

This "ahead at the apex" nonsense has to stop.

Ideally you'd always leave a space like Alonso called it over ten years ago on radio. However, it was the old school racers who actually thought the driver on the outside does not have the right to complain and that the driver on the inside should "have the corner".

 

I believe the current rule is a bit of a compromise of both viewpoints to give the guy on the outside a chance, but also make it clear he can't drag the car on the outside just if he has his nose minimally alongside let's say, but clearly it could do with some further clarification and fine-tuning.

[Celloman]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:21, said:

Max never had a competitive team mate since Riccardo who beat him in 2016 and 2017.

But Albon is now competing with Sainz quite closely and Gasly is the lead driver in Alpine. They were not bad drivers clearly, so to say Max has never had a competitive team-mate since Ricciardo isn't exactly true given that we have seen their pace now.

[Bliman]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 15:14, said:

If he was forced off, he did not gain an advantage. Maybe there's camera angles that shows that Piastri was ahead, as well as pointing out the apex, but in any case it was super close, close enough for the stewards to rule in favor of the pole sitter. Like they have done many times before.

Why rule in favour of the pole sitter? And he gained an advantage because he stayed in front. According the rules he needed to slot in behind. And he forced himself off.

[Bliman]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 15:16, said:

I don't think that was ever in doubt. But was his car the quickest?

You can't know that. Because we always have driver and car. But it would be close because a driver can't extract more than what is in the car.

[Bliman]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 15:50, said:

Or: Bottom line is that both drivers raced to the apex rather than to the exit of the corner.

Yes and Piastri stayed between the lines.

[Bliman]

Analog, on 21 Apr 2025 - 18:06, said:

Well, you obviously do not understand the point I'm raising: If Piastri had braked earlier, which he would have needed to do if he intended to leave space for Max, then Max would also have braked earlier and could have stayed on track. Since the rule is about apex, he gambled that he'd beat Max to it. Max gambled that he himself would see it first. I have not seen every camera angle, but it cannot have been many centimeters that gave Oscar the right to the track. It could easily have gone the other way. So my point is: The way the rules are written, they encouraged both Piastri and Verstappen to go over the limit.

That is why it would be smart to give the place back to Piastri. Max would have not got a penalty then.

[noikeee]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:21, said:

Max never had a competitive team mate since Riccardo who beat him in 2016 and 2017.

I do think Gasly, Albon, Perez and Tsunoda, none of them are top drivers, however they all looked perfectly good midfield drivers at various points of their careers. And Max was starting to become consistently faster than Ricciardo by the end of their time together.

For me this is all explained partially by having merely ok not great teammates yes, also by the car suiting him which exaggerates the gaps to teammate yes, but also by Max simply being the fastest right now. He probably has a tenth or two on average on the next fastest guy on the grid, if that could ever be measured.

[RPM40]

noikeee, on 21 Apr 2025 - 21:27, said:

I do think Gasly, Albon, Perez and Tsunoda, none of them are top drivers, however they all looked perfectly good midfield drivers at various points of their careers. And Max was starting to become consistently faster than Ricciardo by the end of their time together.

For me this is all explained partially by having merely ok not great teammates yes, also by the car suiting him which exaggerates the gaps to teammate yes, but also by Max simply being the fastest right now. He probably has a tenth or two on average on the next fastest guy on the grid, if that could ever be measured.

 

Max was certainly gaining the upper hand on Ricciardo by 2018, but he also spent that season with so many failures and he was generally behind on parts because of it. Which meant running older engines or older specification equipment at time. This was somewhat of a compounding effect which meant that the gaps were often not representative. 

 

No denying Max was the faster driver that year, but the margins were a couple of tenths.

 

It was only after he left that you saw this massive delta emerge, originally Gasly then every other driver they've thrown in there. There are obvious factors to this, the car is specifically developed around Max's front heavy style, the drivers they are promoting to that seat are often inexperienced, and there are no 'top level talents' getting promoted. 

 

I would agree if you put Max in the McLaren he'd definitely have a tenth or two on the McLaren pair.

Edited by RPM40, 21 April 2025 - 21:37.

[Nemo1965]

Posted this in the other thread as well. Has the rumor been mentioned in this thread or in the race-thread that Sulameyn warned Verstappen directly after the race not to say anything about the penalty? There was a short meeting there and on other social media there are pictures of the FIA-director even pointing his finger at Max in an admonishing way. It would certainly explain Max unusual sulking (usually after a race he’s quite gracious, as he was about Piastri).

Edit: video

https://imgur.com/ga...ia-boss-H3XbKwD

Edited by Nemo1965, 21 April 2025 - 21:41.

[thefinalapex]

https://x.com/AeroTe...414288934199491

 

A brilliant break down with telemetry on the lap 1 turn 1 incident. 

 

Edit: The telemetry shows that Verstappen braked earlier then piastri wich was surprising for me.

Edited by thefinalapex, 21 April 2025 - 22:09.

[MikeTekRacing]

Mc_Silver, on 21 Apr 2025 - 19:30, said:

LOL. Go on dreaming and living in la la land.

Haha. You’re living there. When you want to join us, in reality, we’ll be here

[MikeTekRacing]

thefinalapex, on 21 Apr 2025 - 22:03, said:

https://x.com/AeroTe...414288934199491

A brilliant break down with telemetry on the lap 1 turn 1 incident.

Edit: The telemetry shows that Verstappen braked earlier then piastri wich was surprising for me.

All that nonesense that Max had no plan to take the corner is fantasy