85 replies to this topic

[Analog]

But we had a situation where Norris WAS LITERALLY AHEAD on the outside yet apparently Verstappen can still shove him off track without penalty.  Because apices or mirrors or some other FIA ****.

 

I did not see that situation, but if it existed then Verstappen should've had a penalty.

[chrcol]

The rules in the last couple of years were just plain broken, we had drivers dive bombing, not making the corner and then escaping punishment when they came out ahead, it was utterly ridiculous.  I am at odds why others are not seeing what we have now as an improvement. 
You can still over take on the outside, you just have to do it under control staying within track limits.  . 

[Ali_G]

The rules in the last couple of years were just plain broken, we had drivers dive bombing, not making the corner and then escaping punishment when they came out ahead, it was utterly ridiculous. I am at odds why others are not seeing what we have now as an improvement.
You can still over take on the outside, you just have to do it under control staying within track limits. .

That’s not the issue though. If anyone goes up the inside in any controlled manner, then they are bound to get past as the defending driver will get no space on the outside. The defending driver is basically toothless.

[ensign14]

The rules in the last couple of years were just plain broken, we had drivers dive bombing, not making the corner and then escaping punishment when they came out ahead, it was utterly ridiculous.  I am at odds why others are not seeing what we have now as an improvement. 

Because we still have that - only the driver doing the dive-bombing is the one who is ahead.

[FortiFord]

I don't see what the problem with 'all the time you have to leave the space' if applied correctly

 

much easier to judge than who's ahead at the apex rubbish, front wing relative to mirror etc.

 

If car A is overtaking car B on the inside into a corner, then A must leave a cars width on the corner exit, for B to try and hold on. I think A can brake later then B and block B from turning in preventing a switch back, as long as it doesn't run B off the road

 

If car A is lining up for an overtake and car B then defends down the inside, then it must leave a cars width on corner entry and exit for car A 

 

Simply then if you push a car off the track, wether you're the attacking or defending car, you will receive a penalty. 

 

Also think there needs to be a better way to apply penalties, as you see in some cases drivers sometimes accept the 5 second penalty as by the time they have to take it during the pitstop / at end of race its been nullified by the gap they've managed to make anyway. Perhaps they can have a penalty corner or zone that works like a joker in rallycross, that takes approx 5 seconds longer to complete, and must be done within 3 laps of receiving the penalty like a drive through used to be served. Or maybe an enforced slow zone / reduced power like in grand turismo game

 

"All the time you have to leave a space" was a message from Alonso in reference to Rosberg not leaving space on a straight. The rules were amended. 

 

The dynamics in corners is slightly different because cars are not going flat out and are on the limit of adhesion, making it difficult for drivers to quickly change their line in order to accomodate a car that has appeared alongside them. 

 

This is F1 and not scaletrix. A car on the racing line will not feel obliged to deviate from the racing line if another car decides to stick a nose up the outside (or inside for that matter). The overtaking car needs to be sufficiently alongside, and that is down to judgement. What these rules/guidelines have done is try and define this. It seems like some drivers are exploiting this by going too hot into corners in order to hold position, and in doing so, having the right to shove someone off track. That is wrong IMO. 

[FortiFord]

That’s effectively what the rules were since the dawn of time but somewhere in the last 20 years, this racing line, forcing cars off has become tolerated.

For some reason it’s not tolerated in oval racing and none of its proponents can state why.

 

There were no written rules which explicitly governed this prior to 2022. Hanging out to dry is not a new thing and has happened as long as i've been watching F1 and certainly beyond the last 20 years. 

[mclara]

Why would you go to the McLaren thread to read about driving standards and overtaking rules?

 

Because it was discussed there.

 

Could you at least answer it given this is the specific thread instead of me needing to trawl through page after page of another thread.

I posted this earlier: https://x.com/F1WDC2...on^s1_&ref_url=

 

I dont want to turn this thread into another discussion about Max's driving in Miami.

[PrinceBira]

Because it was discussed there.

I posted this earlier: https://x.com/F1WDC2...on^s1_&ref_url=

I dont want to turn this thread into another discussion about Max's driving in Miami.

Under the new driving rules:

- Verstappen had his front axle in front of Norris’ mirrors
- As the driver on the inside, the corner was now his
- he was not obliged to leave room

(Or at least that is how I see the new rules).

If these are the rules, drivers will drive on this basis.

[MikeTekRacing]

This is a reaction to drivers hanging on the outside by braking very late and then claiming they got pushed off. It seems a bit of a no-win situation with the rules now.

 

they need to make the corner. Force the driver on the inside to leave them room. You will then see if they had any hope to make that corner or not

[Ivanhoe]

Under the new driving rules:

- Verstappen had his front axle in front of Norris’ mirrors
- As the driver on the inside, the corner was now his
- he was not obliged to leave room

(Or at least that is how I see the new rules).

If these are the rules, drivers will drive on this basis.

Except that Verstappen was the defending driver. As the overtaking driver Norris had to be in front at the apex , which he wasn’t. Same outcome, bit different reasoning. About Verstappen ‘veering’ into Norris, as argued in the McLaren thread, from Verstappen’s onboard it was pretty clear he had a snap of oversteer, not uncommom with cold tyres and a heavy car at the start of a race.

 

it’s also remarkable we only have this discussion when Verstappen is involved. Can’t remember people being so vocal when Piastri forced Antonelli off track.

[Analog]

But we had a situation where Norris WAS LITERALLY AHEAD on the outside yet apparently Verstappen can still shove him off track without penalty.  Because apices or mirrors or some other FIA ****.

 

 

I did not see that situation, but if it existed then Verstappen should've had a penalty.

I had kind of hoped that you would give some pointers to the situation you referred to.

[PrinceBira]

Except that Verstappen was the defending driver. As the overtaking driver Norris had to be in front at the apex , which he wasn’t. Same outcome, bit different reasoning. About Verstappen ‘veering’ into Norris, as argued in the McLaren thread, from Verstappen’s onboard it was pretty clear he had a snap of oversteer, not uncommom with cold tyres and a heavy car at the start of a race.

it’s also remarkable we only have this discussion when Verstappen is involved. Can’t remember people being so vocal when Piastri forced Antonelli off track.

Ah thanks for the correction, that makes sense.

[mclara]

Under the new driving rules:

- Verstappen had his front axle in front of Norris’ mirrors
- As the driver on the inside, the corner was now his
- he was not obliged to leave room

(Or at least that is how I see the new rules).

If these are the rules, drivers will drive on this basis.

this is quite clear on how one should handle their car:

 

an abnormal change of direction • potentially dangerous to other drivers

 

the guidelines also says a driver must have full control of the car.

[Ivanhoe]

I had kind of hoped that you would give some pointers to the situation you referred to.

Norris wasn’t ahead at the apex. In fact he was never ahead. You can watch it at this clip at the top view of the start (starting at 0.59)

[AustinF1]

In typical F1 fashion, they've gone the wrong direction with the clarification. Instead of making it easier to judge and enforce rules, they've made it more difficult. Rather thna making a rule that's easy to comply with and harder to abuse, they've made it even fuzzier and easier to abuse. 

 

Just require both cars to leave room at all times, regardless of who gets to the (often nebulous) apex first. Then all that's left to judge is whether or not each driver left room for the other. It would render irrelevant all the incessant quibbling over whose tire or wing is where in relation to each other and the apex. Instead, they took a big can of worms and just dumped more worms on top.

[PrinceBira]

this is quite clear on how one should handle their car:

an abnormal change of direction • potentially dangerous to other drivers

the guidelines also says a driver must have full control of the car.

Change of direction did not change, the radius did.

‘Full control’ seems to be intended for cases like Sainz who divebombed Hamilton and could not stop the car before the corner. The day a snap oversteer moment will be viewed that strictly we might better just install passing lanes.

Regardless of all of this, the Stewards obviously do not interpret the guidelines the way you do. So better accept that exactly this is allowed since 2025.

[Analog]

Norris wasn’t ahead at the apex. In fact he was never ahead. You can watch it at this clip at the top view of the start (starting at 0.59)

I know, but I assume Ensign14 mean some other situation, later in the race? Or maybe another race? I mean, he used CAPS...

[Ivanhoe]

I know, but I assume Ensign14 mean some other situation, later in the race? Or maybe another race? I mean, he used CAPS...

No, pretty sure he was talking about the L1T2 incident, he posted a still of Norris’s onboard camera in another thread to ‘proof’ he was ahead.

[ensign14]

tbf I was quoting, but...

 

 

...I mean, it's pretty clear.

[Miles749]

tbf I was quoting, but...

 

 

...I mean, it's pretty clear.

 

Yes but by the new rules Norris as an attacker on the outside needs to have his front axle AHEAD of defenders front axle at the apex. With the rules as it is, Verstappen does not have to leave Norris any room on the exit of this corner.

 

This push him off is completely legal even though the cars are level at apex. 

 

To me this is a really bad idea, this fully clarifies to the drivers when they can push people off. Now everyone will do it every time, just check if you are level at apex, if you are and you hold the inside, just drive to the outside. 

 

This example above is a perfect example why the rule can't be as black and white as they wrote it. This is a very slight curve, two cars can drive alongside, Norris is also level with Verstappen, it was no divebomb, he deserves room on the outside. 

Edited by Miles749, 06 May 2025 - 20:14.

[MikeTekRacing]

That’s not the apex

[Miles749]

That’s not the apex

That is another problem, some corners have two apexes, sometimes cars take different lines resulting in different apexes, it's just a bad way to bring clarity to the situation.

 

It would have been better to tell them that they need to make best effort to leave enough space in both situations, when there is a significant (non divebombing) overlap and that they will police it with common sense. Anyone abusing will fall foul of the system. 

[Ivanhoe]

That’s not the apex

It’s not ahead either.

[MikeTekRacing]

That is another problem, some corners have two apexes, sometimes cars take different lines resulting in different apexes, it's just a bad way to bring clarity to the situation.

It would have been better to tell them that they need to make best effort to leave enough space in both situations, when there is a significant (non divebombing) overlap and that they will police it with common sense. Anyone abusing will fall foul of the system.

Totally agree

[PlatenGlass]

Maybe it should be automated and a light comes on in the car when you can force the other driver off.

A bit like how a driver doesn't have to work out for himself when he can use DRS (except in that weird case with Russell a few races ago).

[mclara]

Change of direction did not change, the radius did.

‘Full control’ seems to be intended for cases like Sainz who divebombed Hamilton and could not stop the car before the corner. The day a snap oversteer moment will be viewed that strictly we might better just install passing lanes.

Regardless of all of this, the Stewards obviously do not interpret the guidelines the way you do. So better accept that exactly this is allowed since 2025.

if Max is so great he should be able to have full control. Others are able so..

 

The rules are quite clear but as I said earlier this is the kind of incident that gets brushed away because both drivers escape unharmed. We have seen worse getting brushed away earlier.

[ensign14]

Yes but by the new rules Norris as an attacker on the outside needs to have his front axle AHEAD of defenders front axle at the apex.

 

...which means the driver on the inside can divebomb into the corner to make sure they are ahead at the apex with no intention of leaving racing room. Exactly what most of the world condemned Verstappen for doing last year.  And which in effect happened on that occasion as well.

 

And the FIA's intense scrutiny on that is...to allow it.

[PrinceBira]

if Max is so great he should be able to have full control. Others are able so..

The rules are quite clear but as I said earlier this is the kind of incident that gets brushed away because both drivers escape unharmed. We have seen worse getting brushed away earlier.

It wasn’t brushed away, it was looked at.

It’s hard to accept but your interpretation - so far - is simply different from the Stewards’.

[PrinceBira]

...which means the driver on the inside can divebomb into the corner to make sure they are ahead at the apex with no intention of leaving racing room. Exactly what most of the world condemned Verstappen for doing last year. And which in effect happened on that occasion as well.

And the FIA's intense scrutiny on that is...to allow it.

You can’t fully divebomb as there is some wording on ‘normal racing lines or so’ and that you need to be alongside prior to the apex or something. Can’t be bothered to look it up on my phone, but they built in a lot of caveats they can refer to if needed.

[Ali_G]

if Max is so great he should be able to have full control. Others are able so..

The rules are quite clear but as I said earlier this is the kind of incident that gets brushed away because both drivers escape unharmed. We have seen worse getting brushed away earlier.

Are you saying that all drivers should never have any snap oversteer? On cold tyres after the race start. You being serious?

Edited by Ali_G, 07 May 2025 - 08:37.

[FortiFord]

You can’t fully divebomb as there is some wording on ‘normal racing lines or so’ and that you need to be alongside prior to the apex or something. Can’t be bothered to look it up on my phone, but they built in a lot of caveats they can refer to if needed.

 

Not sure what caveats you are referring to. The 2025 racing guidelines have not been published to the public. 

[Miles749]

Not sure what caveats you are referring to. The 2025 racing guidelines have not been published to the public. 

 

The Race published a video on it, showing the parts that relate to these overtaking rules.

 

Caveat is that the car needs to be in control and that they need to be alongside mirror prior to and at apex. So if you just divebomb they can either judge you were not in control or that you weren't alongside mirror at a certain area prior to the apex.

 

I fully agree they can reject divebombs, but let's be realistic, no smart racing driver will let anyone on the inside under these rules. 

[mclara]

It wasn’t brushed away, it was looked at.

It’s hard to accept but your interpretation - so far - is simply different from the Stewards’.

yes it was looked at and dismissed. 

 

Are you saying that all drivers should never have any snap oversteer? On cold tyres after the race start. You being serious?

no

Edited by mclara, 07 May 2025 - 11:23.

[PrinceBira]

Not sure what caveats you are referring to. The 2025 racing guidelines have not been published to the public.

These you mean?

The new guidelines demand that the overtaking car.

i) Have its front axle AT LEAST ALONGSIDE THE MIRROR of the other car PRIOR TO AND AT THE APEX

ii) Be driven in a fully controlled manner particularly from entry to apex, and not have ‘dived in’.

iii) In the stewards’ estimation, have taken a reasonable racing line and been able to complete the move whilst remaining within track limits.

[Brian60]

Over the last couple of years what we have seen is whether defending or attacking, Max will come off the brakes to ensure he gets to the apex and then claims the corner as his. This invariable ends up with him running wide and claiming he was pushed off, if on the outside, or the corner was his if he was on the inside. He's gotten away with it due to the rules.

 

Move on to this season and we now have a situation where Piastri has seen how Max 'claims' a corner and is doing exactly the same - coming off the brakes to ensure his car is slightly in front at the apex and running wide himself and taking his opponent off with him, but crucially avoiding penalties due to the rules.

[pdac]

Over the last couple of years what we have seen is whether defending or attacking, Max will come off the brakes to ensure he gets to the apex and then claims the corner as his. This invariable ends up with him running wide and claiming he was pushed off, if on the outside, or the corner was his if he was on the inside. He's gotten away with it due to the rules.

 

Move on to this season and we now have a situation where Piastri has seen how Max 'claims' a corner and is doing exactly the same - coming off the brakes to ensure his car is slightly in front at the apex and running wide himself and taking his opponent off with him, but crucially avoiding penalties due to the rules.

 

And other drivers have noticed this and already adjusted their style (for the worse) accordingly.