57 replies to this topic

[MichaelJP]

Many people would acknowledge that the "new" Nurburgring suffers much by comparison with the majestic Nordschleife.

I was wondering how it got that way.

Surely when they decided that they had to build a modern GP track they could have taken the opportunity to do something really special. After all the Spa GP circuit, although not as charismatic as the old circuit, turned out to be one of the best.

My ideal new Ring would have tried to echo some of the classic sections of the track such as Schwedenkreuz-Adenauer Forst and Wipperman-Pflanzgarten in a 4 mile circuit. You could still have had modern run-offs etc.

Wasted opportunity?

- Michael

[mhferrari]

The hairpin, sort of echos the Nordschleife, except I really couldn't picture Nuvolari going through the less banked "new" Nurburg track hairpin.

I think that was intentional, however, it is not the best portrayal.

[mat1]

Originally posted by mhferrari
The hairpin, sort of echos the Nordschleife,

Yes, in a way it echoes the karussell, but that is the most boring bend in the Nordscheife, albeit the most pictured.

yes, I don't understand why they didn't try something more special, but there are some possibilities, for instance; on a "modern" track you need a wide track. It is difficult to make something as challenging as for example Wippermann on a wide track.

And perhaps the steepness would be difficult too.

It remains a pity...

mat

[Gary C]

........it's bluddy horrible! (apologies for the language!).

[Kpy]

Went there for the first GP at the then new circuit in '84. Arrived Sat am early. Watched practice, was totally underwhelmed by the horrible view from what seemed like a mile away from the track, the fact that there was no general entry - you had to choose your section of terracing (they called it an all-grandstand circuit, but it wasn't grand and you had to stand) before you got into the place - and outrageous prices (it was before you needed to re-mortgage the house to get into Silverstone).

So we climbed into the car and drove home through the night arriving back in England in plenty of time to watch the GP on TV.

I've never been back, and never shall.

Such a shame when viewing at the old 'ring was such fun, particularly at 1000 km events when you could move around a bit during the races.

[LittleChris]

Just before Lauda's crash in 76, it was planned to shorten the Nordschleife to around 7 miles by building a link between Adenauer Forst and Antoniusbuche Bridge according to Motoring News in the UK.

Personally I don't understand why they didn't renovate the Sudschleife.

The current version of the Ring is actually shorter than originally planned. It was going to be about 4.5 miles, but I believe they ran out of money.

Chris

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Just before Lauda's crash in 76, it was planned to shorten the Nordschleife to around 7 miles by building a link between Adenauer Forst and Antoniusbuche Bridge according to Motoring News in the UK.

Personally I don't understand why they didn't renovate the Sudschleife.

The current version of the Ring is actually shorter than originally planned. It was going to be about 4.5 miles, but I believe they ran out of money.

Chris

That's interesting Chris - my main issue with the new circuit is that it is totally out of character with the Nordschleife. The turns are all constant radius, constant camber. This seems a common fault with all circuits built in the last 10 years, the designers just seem to lack any imagination.

Or are there FIA rules which dictate that no corner should be decreasing radius, or adverse camber, or go over a hump, or a compression, etc. ?

- Michael

[jrosenzweig]

What annoys me is that people call the F1 circuit the Nurburgring. In my mind there is and will only be one Nurburgring As for the F1 circuit now, it probably is one of the better modern circuits around when comparing them. Surely they could have called it something else, but once again they knew that have a historically famous name for the circuit may drawn a larger crowd, sponsors etc. I laughed when i heard the commentators on sunday night (here is Aus) say that they were racing at the famous Nurburgring. Huh? This track ain't 14 miles long...

[mat1]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Just before Lauda's crash in 76, it was planned to shorten the Nordschleife to around 7 miles by building a link between Adenauer Forst and Antoniusbuche Bridge according to Motoring News in the UK.

Personally I don't understand why they didn't renovate the Sudschleife.


Chris

I'm glad they didn't shorten the Nordschleife, as it would have meant the sanitizing of the part between the Start and Adenauer Forst. I think the present istuation is the best, i.e., the old Ring is still there and can be used.

The old Sudschleife?? Wasn't it too narrow?

mat

[LittleChris]

Mat1,

The Sudschleife may have been narrow ( not as narrow as Monaco I bet ), but as far as I can see from maps, there was nothing to prevent it being widened and run off areas put in. I have to say it looks like it would have been a very quick track ( until they would've started chucking chicanes at it ) somewhat similar to the original Spa given that it was largely made up of long shallow curves.

I think the problem was that it didn't wind around on itself like the modern day monstrosity and therefore wouldn't have been appealing to the TV companies, especially as all of those trees would've got in the way of the advertising hoardings !

Chris

[mat1]

Originally posted by LittleChris


I think the problem was that it didn't wind around on itself like the modern day monstrosity and therefore wouldn't have been appealing to the TV companies, especially as all of those trees would've got in the way of the advertising hoardings !

Chris

I think you are right about that, Chris.

I like the old tracks, on which the cars roar away out of sight, and after some time come back.

Especially the old Ring would have been fascinating. Imagine: fiirt nothing, thenan (depending on where uou are) you'll hear in the distance somthe start, the sound draws nearer, the car scome in sight, tumble through the corners, and blaze away, and the sound diminishes. And then (I there are not too many spectators nearby) silence again.

I have several times seen touring car races on the current Nordschleife, but there are so many cars racing that almost always a car is in sight.

And silence on the ring is beautiful too. It is a very fine forest, after all.

mat

[LittleChris]

Mat1,

The other thing of course, as I understand it, never having been fortunate enough to visit, would be watching the lights on the map at the start / finish line and imagining what was happening on the other side of the hills in the distance. This always seems to come across from reports I've read, where the journalists have to be in the pit area to keep up with what is going on there and thus can't go out to places like Flugplatz, Breidscheid etc

[mat1]

Originally posted by LittleChris
This always seems to come across from reports I've read, where the journalists have to be in the pit area to keep up with what is going on there and thus can't go out to places like Flugplatz, Breidscheid etc

yes, a pity, because especially the remote locations (Flugplatz, or Breidscheid, or Wippermann, or Kesselchen (though difficult to gain access) or the more romantic, and the locations which differentiate the Ring from most tracks. I think the old Spa has something comparable. Imagine: Masta!

mat

[LittleChris]

Not to mention the Cottage / Quarry section on the return leg to La Source ! Apparently Chris Amon used to know if he was on a good lap just by looking at his rev counter at that point

[Kpy]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Not to mention the Cottage / Quarry section on the return leg to La Source

I've missed that bit in all these umpty years - where is it ? Or is it the cottage where G Hill swore an old woman used to cross the track during practice and race to empty her bucket of what she kept under the bed ?

[LittleChris]

KP,

Cottage ( Named after a couple of cottages on the right hand side of the road ) is the first downhill left hand sweep immediately after Stavelot prior to the Quarry section which is composed essentially of another downhill left, followed by a downhill right and an uphill right. The whole section topographically is completely different from how it appears in Grand Prix Legends. Have a look here.


http://puskarutaja.figc.net/spa.htm


As regards the old lady emptying her pot, I'm sure I got some unexplained wheelspin when I drove past the cottages last year. I'll leave any explanation to you imagination !!!

Chris

[LaurensDeJong]

>Or are there FIA rules which dictate that no corner should be
>decreasing radius, or adverse camber, or go over a hump, or
>a compression, etc. ?

On Saturday I spoke to someone who clearly knew what he was talking about, and he mentioned that there are indeed FIA rules that specify that FIA-sanctioned tracks cannot have decreasing or increasing radius turns. If anyone knows the complete list of Things A Track Can't Be According To Max Mosley, I'd be interested in hearing from them.

[mat1]

Originally posted by LaurensDeJong


On Saturday I spoke to someone who clearly knew what he was talking about, and he mentioned that there are indeed FIA rules that specify that FIA-sanctioned tracks cannot have decreasing or increasing radius turns.

??? Seems improbable. For instance, the parabolica on Monzo seems a fine exampel of an increasing radius turn to me.

mat

[LaurensDeJong]

Well, I found the FIA regulations concerning (I think) new tracks.

http://www.fia.com/R...ndix_O_2001.pdf

Chapter 7.

[Barry Boor]

Clearly the Parabolica is an increasing radius turn but I believe the rules govern NEW circuits. Certainly the days of the 'difficult' corner are gone, at least on any new circuit that has ambitions to hold a Grand Prix race. This is precisely why people like me spend most of our lives moaning about modern F1 racing.

[LaurensDeJong]

This whole document actually makes me laugh, Barry. "A curve, or series of curves uninterrupted by a straight, taken in excess of 125kph, should preferably have an increasing, or at least a constant radius."

First chuckle is that it should "at least" have a constant radius. Second is that they constantly talk about "should" and "preferably," in my mind leaving considerable room for political decision-making.

I'm not sure to what extent these rules cover new circuits only. Wasn't the Le Mans circuit changed specifically to keep its FIA approval? I'm thinking of the chicanes along the straight and the Courbe Dunlop (which used to be sort-of a tightening corner).

To return a slightly more to the original topic: I calculated that the FIA would set the maximum number of cars in a race at the Nordschleife at 82. We had 210 at the recent 24h. And it seemed just right to me.

[mat1]

A quick glance in the document: "fast" (> 125 kph) constant or increasing radius, "slow" corners decreasing radius permitted (provided sufficient safety area etc).

So it is not a complete ban on non-constant radius corners.

mat

[jrosenzweig]

Hmmm i see the FIA really are dumb. Ok well does it stipulate how long a straight should be? make an opening corner below 125kph and at the point the radii changes put a 1m straight

[C F Eick]

Originally posted by mat1

And silence on the ring is beautiful too. It is a very fine forest, after all.

I couldn't agree with you more, Mat! One way to experience this beautiful silence is if you go there when the car industry is performing tests. A couple of years ago, I stood at Pflanzgarten at 0800 hours in the damp chilly morning, the fog had not yet dispersed. All you could hear was some birds. Suddenly you pick up a sound in the distance, not able to judge where it comes from. It disappears at times, but it is getting closer and closer. You note that it is a large V8 engine roaring and are getting eager to see what kind of car it is. Finally the car reaches Brünnchen and you can hear it very well, then the sound almost disappears again and suddenly it reappears some 100 m from you together with screaching tyres from a then all-new BMW M5! The car blasts past you, over the small jump and into the right-hander, drifting and using all the track width available. Then it gets out of sight, but you can still hear the sound until the car dives behind the large jump at Pflanzgarten II. Moments of silence appear until you again hear the engine at Schwalbenschwanz. Serene silence again as you wait for the next car to come around.

Now imagine the same setting 60 years ago and the car which appears is not a BMW M5 but a Mercedes W125 and the driver is not an anonymous test driver but Rudolf Caracciola trying out some new tyres...

/Christian

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by mat1
A quick glance in the document: "fast" (> 125 kph) constant or increasing radius, "slow" corners decreasing radius permitted (provided sufficient safety area etc).

So it is not a complete ban on non-constant radius corners.
mat

It isn't a complete ban, but in practical terms for Formula 1 it is. Virtually all corners are taken faster than 125kph, except really slow hairpins like the Station hairpin at Monaco (or whatever it's called now)

That document is interesting - it goes a long way towards explaining how we end up with such bland, flat, tracks these days.

- Michael

[mat1]

This story makes me dreaming, Christian....

How do you know the manufacturers are testing? And: if they are testing, is the track rented by just one manufacturer? Or do they share?

BTW, I understand that, if you are at Pflanzgarten, you can hear a car at brunnchen, but not in betreen Brunnchen and the top of the hill before Pflanzgarten? How come? because of the Eiskurve-hill or something?

mat

[C F Eick]

That's absolutely right mat, the Eiskurve-hill prevents the sound from reaching your ears, therefore the effect is so dramatic when the cars suddenly appear in the downhill section just before the small jump at Pflanzgarten I, often adjoined by loud tyre screaching! However, I imagine that in the 30s you could probably hear the supercharged V12s/V16s et al scream uninterruptedly from the Bergwerk corner to Antoniusbuche...

About testing, it takes place almost every weekday from february/march to november/december (with the exception of advanced driving schools every now and then) and usually there are lots of different manufacturers that rent the track at the same time. Tyre manufacturers, electronics manufacturers (Bosch, Teves et al) and car manufacturers are often testing side by side which means you can get to see LOTS of interesting stuff!

/Christian

[MichaelJP]

"However, I imagine that in the 30s you could probably hear the supercharged V12s/V16s et al scream uninterruptedly from the Bergwerk corner to Antoniusbuche... "

Christian, this got me thinking - people often talk of the characteristic scream of the supercharged Mercedes and Auto-Unions of pre-war racing. Is there any recording extant of this sound? It would be nice to hear it:-)

I have watched quite a few of the films from that era, but unfortunately, as was quite common, the sound appears to be dubbed on afterwards by incompetents.

- Michael

[C F Eick]

I'm sure there are miles of tape of racing sounds from the 30s, but the question is where it is and if it's possible to get access to it...? With their recent surge in interest in their own history, M-B and Audi ought to realize that they are sitting on a gold mine and then they ought to release sound material from their archives on CDs and sell them to racing enthusiasts! I bought the book "Into the red" mainly because of the sound CD and it was great to hear those engines.

I remember reading an old "auto, motor und sport" from the 70s once where you could order a (vinyl of course) record with the title: "The Sounds of the Nürburgring 1000 km 1968"! I would give my left arm to own a copy of that one...

[mat1]

Originally posted by C F Eick


About testing, it takes place almost every weekday from february/march to november/december (with the exception of advanced driving schools every now and then) and usually there are lots of different manufacturers that rent the track at the same time. Tyre manufacturers, electronics manufacturers (Bosch, Teves et al) and car manufacturers are often testing side by side which means you can get to see LOTS of interesting stuff!

/Christian

I think I'll do that some time... Thanks, Christian.

BTW, do you live in the neighborhood?

mat

[LaurensDeJong]

Christian: I may help you with that record. Contact me at LaurensDeJong@email.com?

[C F Eick]

Originally posted by mat1


BTW, do you live in the neighborhood?

mat

No, unfortunately I don't, I live in Sweden. Nevertheless, I've been able to visit the track quite a few times since my first visit there in 1995. On top of that, I'm seriously considering moving to Germany in the next few years and one reason is that I would then be able to go there more often!

[mat1]

So you're from Sweden, but you sounded like someone who's been there often. And as I understand, you hve been there a couple of times indeed. Have you driven there?

mat

[john winfield]

Not really nostalgia at all, but there's something vaguely traditional, and right, about today's 'Nurburgring' F1 session being cancelled due to fog and rain.

 

Cue footage of Jackie and the Matra.

Edited by john winfield, 09 October 2020 - 10:39.

[Tim Murray]

... or Rosemeyer in 1936.

[Glengavel]

Formula 1's Twitter feed claiming the Neue Nürburgring is "iconic".

 

https://twitter.com/...478684577947648

[john winfield]

Formula 1's Twitter feed claiming the Neue Nürburgring is "iconic".

 

https://twitter.com/...478684577947648

 

Perhaps the term 'venue' has a twenty mile radius.  Or else the witty use of 'ironic' has been spoiled by a typo. 

[Sterzo]

Not really nostalgia at all, but there's something vaguely traditional, and right, about today's 'Nurburgring' F1 session being cancelled due to fog and rain.

 

Cue footage of Jackie and the Matra.

It's The Revenge of the Gods, although Carracciola is looking down, mystified no-one is breaking the lap record.

[FLB]

Not really nostalgia at all, but there's something vaguely traditional, and right, about today's 'Nurburgring' F1 session being cancelled due to fog and rain.

 

Cue footage of Jackie and the Matra.

Maybe, but at least compared to 1968, I don't fear and loathe every 7th of the month.

[Collombin]

Formula 1's Twitter feed claiming the Neue Nürburgring is "iconic".

Geoff Crammond's Revs Plus computer game tried that con in about 1986, describing what an iconic track it was. Even the 13 year old Collombin wasn't fooled - I knew they wouldn't get the 14 mile track (along with 5 others) onto a 64K program, and sure enough the version in the game was the Mickey Mouse one.

[Doug Nye]

When Mercedes-Benz supported the opening of the 'new Nurburgring' by having celebs drive around it in whatever their Cosworth-modded small saloons were called, Moss declared (to the promoters' and sponsors' dismay) "This isn't a circuit on which legends will be written".  

 

(Thinks: "Tell it like it is Stirl...")

 

It is perhaps a sign of the times that the place is quite well thought of amongst present-day racers...and there are many circuits in current use which are decidedly more dull.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 10 October 2020 - 05:38.

[airbox]

So 'iconic' that after a couple of Grand Prix on the new circuit they didn't go back for another decade. 

[Doug Nye]

Wrong end of the telescope I feel - the Nordschleife (which is the one which earned the compliment) is too 'iconic' for modern Formula 1 use.

 

What I most hold against the Neue Nurburgring is that its construction obliterated most of the adorable Sudschleife, for which I had a real soft spot...

 

DCN

[Glengavel]

One of the nicknames for the new track was Ersatzring. 

[PayasYouRace]

Wrong end of the telescope I feel - the Nordschleife (which is the one which earned the compliment) is too 'iconic' for modern Formula 1 use.

 

What I most hold against the Neue Nurburgring is that its construction obliterated most of the adorable Sudschleife, for which I had a real soft spot...

 

DCN

 

It didn't actually. It's almost all still there.

 

[Doug Nye]

Good Lord - I stand corrected, but in what condition?

 

DCN

[john aston]

We may deprecate the Neu  'Ring, but compared to some horrors we endured nearly forty years ago it really ain't that bad . Caesars Palace anyone?  Or would sir prefer to partake of the crumbling Tarmac of Dallas ? 

 

I know that Doug affects disdain for tintops but it is worth mentioning that the 'small saloons '  he mentions were the very decent Mercedes 190E  2.3 16V , iterations of which went on to glory in saloon car racing - if that isn't too oxymoronic ?  

[Doug Nye]

Oh but far from being an affectation, rest assured that my disdain for 'tintops' is entirely genuine...  

 

DCN

[Tim Murray]

Here’s an earlier thread with more info, including a video clip posted by LittleChris showing a drive around what was left of the circuit in 2011. Nearly all of it was still drivable, although the eastern section is now a public highway:

Südschleife

[Ralf Pickel]

Here´s a video we did in 2006 - quality is not as you would have today, sorry.

But is was fun to drive and quite fast - too fast for the unfortunate two onboard their Pur Sang T35, they rolled the car, but had been very lucky.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=bHeHSKMeNFc