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Was the Joest Porsche really a TWR Jaguar ?


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#1 Megatron

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Posted 19 August 2001 - 11:01

Forgive me if this is slightly off topic, but is it true that the Joest team won the Le Mans in 1996 and 1997 with 'Porsche' chassis that were actually modified (open top) Jaguar tubs from Jag's last season in Sports Cars in 1992? Fitted with the Porsche engine?

If true, it seems as if this were a bit of a hallow victory for Porsche considering their works cars were beaten by Joest, and the cars were even true Porsches. Maybe just a victory for the engines?

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#2 david_martin

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Posted 19 August 2001 - 16:57

As far as I know, that prototype was conceived entirely as a privateer venture by Reinhold Joest. TWR designed and manufactured the chassis for Joest around the classic Porsche flat turbo 6 (with which Joest had years of Group C experience). The chassis itself was a new design done by Tony Southgate, and it bore very little relation to the TWR designed Group C cars of the 80's and early 90's.

Joest entered two cars as "Joest TWR-Porsche WSC 95" in 1996 and the trio of Manuel Reuter, Davy Jones and Alexander Wurtz saw off a flotilla of McLaren F1's and the factory 911-GT1's to take a surprise win. Joest were not the only privateer Porsche powered prototype that year, both Kremer and Courage also entered similar WSC class cars.

Based on the 1996 victory, the Porsche factory gave Joest support for 1997 and 1998, mainly in the shape of engine development and funding. Stefan Johansson, Michele Alboretto and Tom Kristensen took the car to a second, convincing win in 1997, again as a "Joest TWR-Porsche WSC 95" entered in the LM875 category.

#3 clickhappy

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Posted 19 August 2001 - 17:13

It wasn't a new chassis. It was a Jaguar XJR-14. It looks just like an XJR-14. except it isn't purple and it doesn't have a roof.

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 August 2001 - 21:02

I've read something about this, sometime in the last year, almost certainly in Motor Sport, but what it was and when I don't exactly recall ... the gist of the article was exactly as clickhappy says though.

#5 Megatron

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Posted 19 August 2001 - 21:14

Who actually got credit for the winning chassis? Porsche or "Joest"? Also, considering Joest run Audi's open top prototype now, is the old XJR releated to the new Audi or is it a ground up project?

What a black eye for Porsche. Then again, Joest beat them at Le Mans in 1985 as well... (Though it was still a "Porsche" victory).

#6 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 19 August 2001 - 23:02

The first car was known as the Porsche WRC95 (sometimes a TWR Porsche WRC95). After Porsche abandoned the project the WRC95 was handed over to Reinhold Joest.
The reworked car was refered to as a Joest Porsche.
Compare with the Dauer 962LM.

The Joest run Audi R8 cars has nothing to do with the TWR design.
The R8 is designed and built by Dallara.

#7 Martin Krejci

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Posted 20 August 2001 - 08:46

These cars were properly called TWR-Porsche WSC95, i.e. TWR chassis and Porsche engine. They were prepared by Tom Walkinshaw racing and for Daytona 24 Hours 1995 but after restrictor changes they were withdrawn (in fact I think one was entered by Porsche for Daytona Tests only and the other TWR's was present also at test but withdrawn from the race itself).

It was similar to Jaguar XJR-14 but not the same chassis! It was not the case as with Spices, Tigas and Argos, the roff which were simply cut off and became WSC spiders.

Joest had nothing to do with cars as a builder, so I don't like calling them Joest Porsche WSC95 or something similar. ACO stats count the win to the Porsche mark, but I would prefer to count it to TWR or as some publications do to TWR-Porsche.

Similarly Dauer's win is counted to Porsche but still I prefer to consider it as a Dauer's win, not Porsche (even Dauer were based on true Porsche 962 renumbered chassis).

It is interesting that ACO stats that I saw have 1 win for Mercedes (1952) and 1 win for Sauber or Sauber Mercedes (1989) but all 'Porsche-engined hybrids' count to this far most successful make.

It is worth to note that in 1998 both TWRs were rebuilt by Porsche factory and were entered simply as Porsche LMP1/98.

#8 Darren Galpin

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Posted 20 August 2001 - 08:54

The article in MotorSport last year, as Vitesse2 remembers, did indeed say that to build the Joest Porsche, a Jaguar chassis was used. Can't remember the date of the magazine, but the article I believe gave the chassis number of the Jaguar that was used.

#9 Martin Krejci

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Posted 20 August 2001 - 10:10

Darren, I would be happy to know if it was build from existing Jaguar chassis. I thought so earlier but I don't remember I ever saw any reference to be built from Jaguar. TWR cars have chassis numbers WSC-001 and WSC-002 and I believe were built from new using project of March-built Jaguar XJR-14. Similary built from new were MXR-01 Mazdas even they were nearly identical to XJR-14.

I like to change my mind if anybody can confirm they weren't built from new (or unfinished/unnumbered Jaguar tub).

#10 Darren Galpin

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Posted 20 August 2001 - 10:28

I'll try and dig out the magazine tonight and give more details tomorrow.

#11 fines

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Posted 20 August 2001 - 15:03

Well, the one who pays the bills...

I think it's not unusual in Sports Car racing for big manufacturers to source out the chassis manufacturing to specialised chassis shops. I am far from being an expert here, but I know that, eg, the BMW was built by Williams GPE, the Jaguars and Nissans by TWR, the Audi by Dallara etc.

Even in GP racing, it has been done several times. The first Tolemans were built by BS Fabrications, the Rebaque by Penske, the RAM by March and so on. Even a few Ferrari chassis were manufactured in Britain, and long before John Barnard's GTO enterprise at that!

#12 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 20 August 2001 - 16:06

The following information is from Racecar Engineering Vol 6 No 2.

"Three TWR-Porsche WSC cars have been built. The prototype was actually based on a modified XJR-14 chassis."

"The other two monocoques like all new XJR-14s, were built new in the UK by Astec (A TWR Group company)."

However there is no mention whether the modified XJR-14 tub came from a previously raced car. Or if this was an unnumbered 'spare' tub. I would lean towards the latter.

Dave Fullerton and Ian Reed adapted Ross Brawn´s XJR-14 original design. Much of the suspension was retained.

The cars were put together at TWR Inc, in Valparaiso, Indiana.

Also worth a mention is that this original XJR-14 chassis also had a second 'cousin'.

The MXR-01 which was powered by a Mazda badged Judd GV V10.

#13 Martin Krejci

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Posted 21 August 2001 - 05:53

Rainer:
thank you for confirming the two TWRs were built from new by Astec. It confirms information that is in Janos' Time and Two Seats book.

I don't know what is the deffirence between the two chassis (XJR-14 and TWR) but TWR should have been some 150 kg heavier so I don't think they were quite the same.

Fines:
You are right that many cars are built by other companies. But it is important the official name the car got. Group C Jaguars until 1990 were built by Advanced Composited but were called Jaguars. XJR-14 were built by March but were called Jaguars too. TWRs were built by Astec but were called TWR. It is wrong that ACO counts its victories to Porsche make unless they count engine victories. It became Porsche officially in 1998.

There are some other examples, sometimes not much clear: Saubers became Mercedes-Benz in 1990. I thought they were Mercedes also in 1991 but the book Time and Two Seats suggests that they were back to Sauber name. So I am not sure.

Another examples of similar 'hybrids' are Japanese Tom's/Dome-Toyotas or March-Nissans in the middle of 80s. I am also not sure when Alpine-Renaults became Renault-Alpines. I would think they were officially always Alpines but ACO and all other sources always count 1978 victory to Renault, not Alpine. In 1974 they were Alpines winning 2-litre Sports Car Championship. In 1978 they were Renaults winning Le Mans. But when it changed?

#14 Darren Galpin

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Posted 21 August 2001 - 06:46

The following is a precis, including quotes, from the MotorSport magazine of the June 2000, Vol 76, number 6



The Porsche WSC95 that won Le Mans with Joest in 1996-97 was built around the same chassis as the Jaguar XJR-14 in which Teo Fabi claimed the drivers' honours in the 1991 World Sports Prototype Championship.

In July 1994, the only car in the Valparaiso workshop in America was an old XJR-14. Tony Dowe imagined that it would make a good car for the IMSA WSC class, so telephoned Porsche USA boss Alwin Springer requesting an engine. He took some photo's of a mocked up car, and he was sent a dummy engine. Max Welt from Porsche AG was going to the US, so Dowe rushed around, made it look like a real car and painted it in grey primer.

"Welti went back to Germany and, within weeks, XJR-14 chassis number 691, was on the way to becoming WSC95-001 In the autumn came the announcement of a two-car assault on not only on the following year's Le Mans 24 Hours but the US enduros at Daytona and Sebring......... Two chassis - one converted Jaguar, one brand new - ended up fifth and sixth at Daytona's pre-race tests amid allegations of sandbagging........"

After performance penalties were given by IMSA, Porsche withdrew. Joest asked Porsche if he could rent the cars, and it was agreed. It was entered into the Le Mans 24 Hrs, and won two years running.

#15 ghinzani

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:06

The following is a precis, including quotes, from the MotorSport magazine of the June 2000, Vol 76, number 6



The Porsche WSC95 that won Le Mans with Joest in 1996-97 was built around the same chassis as the Jaguar XJR-14 in which Teo Fabi claimed the drivers' honours in the 1991 World Sports Prototype Championship.

In July 1994, the only car in the Valparaiso workshop in America was an old XJR-14. Tony Dowe imagined that it would make a good car for the IMSA WSC class, so telephoned Porsche USA boss Alwin Springer requesting an engine. He took some photo's of a mocked up car, and he was sent a dummy engine. Max Welt from Porsche AG was going to the US, so Dowe rushed around, made it look like a real car and painted it in grey primer.

"Welti went back to Germany and, within weeks, XJR-14 chassis number 691, was on the way to becoming WSC95-001 In the autumn came the announcement of a two-car assault on not only on the following year's Le Mans 24 Hours but the US enduros at Daytona and Sebring......... Two chassis - one converted Jaguar, one brand new - ended up fifth and sixth at Daytona's pre-race tests amid allegations of sandbagging........"

After performance penalties were given by IMSA, Porsche withdrew. Joest asked Porsche if he could rent the cars, and it was agreed. It was entered into the Le Mans 24 Hrs, and won two years running.


At he time I recall being gutted TWR didnt get the go ahead, what a beautiful car though - well it was a Jaguar Porsche after all :lol:


#16 RCH

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 08:22

At he time I recall being gutted TWR didnt get the go ahead, what a beautiful car though - well it was a Jaguar Porsche after all :lol:


Just to throw a further spanner into the works...
I understand that TWR believed that their contract with Jaguar would end in 1990 with the end of Silk Cut sponsorship. TWR built what was to become the XJR14 in the hope that they would get a contract from Mazda, however it was their car built more or less "on spec". Jaguar was still interested and managed to get a further year out of Silk Cut and then after that the Mazda deal went ahead.

The chassis were TWR property as opposed to Jaguar/Mazda so the Porsche deal was a way of continuing a good design when the category it was built for disappeared. Much as I would like it to be, it's not really correct to describe it as a "Jaguar" chassis.

This was gleaned from making sales calls at Kidlington at the time.

#17 Jager

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 08:43

There is a good article on the evolution of the Jaguar XJR-14 to Mazda MXR-01 to Joest WSC 95 at "Mulsannes Corner" :

http://www.mulsannes...guarXJR-14.html

#18 arttidesco

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:02

Forgive me if this is slightly off topic, but is it true that the Joest team won the Le Mans in 1996 and 1997 with 'Porsche' chassis that were actually modified (open top) Jaguar tubs from Jag's last season in Sports Cars in 1992? Fitted with the Porsche engine?

If true, it seems as if this were a bit of a hallow victory for Porsche considering their works cars were beaten by Joest, and the cars were even true Porsches. Maybe just a victory for the engines?


Seems to this is an issue of out sourcing.

Porsche kept it's Group C programme in house up to and including 1988 and from 1989 Joest Racing became Porsche's preferred customer/partner in Group C & WSC often with Porsche AG employees in the pits to lend a 'helping' hand.

The whole Aston Martin Group C project was outsourced to Ray Mallock Racing, who unwittingly found itself in competition with the other Ford brand Jaguar for Ford HB engines when the WSC went from Group C to 3.5 litres in 1991.

The whole Jaguar XJR programme was out sourced to TWR including the development of the V12 engines used originally, the 6R4 derived AJ6 3.5 Litre V6 turbo engines and the detuning of the Ford Cosworth HB Formula One engine used in the XJR14. After the XJR programme was closed in Europe in 1991, it continued in the USA until 1992, TWR had Astech build five new XJR14 derived chassis for Mazda, another Ford 'partner' which used Judd V10 engines and was collectively known as the MXR-01.

The Mercedes Group C effort was outsourced to Sauber after Sauber had started operating as a customer for MB engines.

So it s a little disingenuous to TWR to refer to the TWR Porsche WSC as Jaguar tubs, they were built for TWR by March and Astech, and originally designed under the direction of Ross Brawn who was in the employ of TWR not Jaguar.

It would appear, depending on whom you believe Wiki or mulsannecorner.com that a TWR designed, former Ford powered, Jaguar branded, March built tub 691/192 or 791 was used to build the Porsche powered TWR WSC95 Spider #001 which won Le Mans in 1996 and 1997 run by the Joest team.

Rather than being hollow victories for Porsche who recorded 2nd and 3rd in '96 and two DNF's in '97 with their own GT1, Porsche were probably pleased that their customer department had been able to supply, Joest, with engines good enough to power a March built TWR design to victory, something that Jaguar/Ford/Mazda had failed to do even once with the same piece of TWR owned intellectual property.

Ultimately these were of course Joest victories first and foremost.



#19 ghinzani

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 01:04

I spoke with Tony and heres his definitive answer:

the Porsche we built for the 1995 season was indeed an ex IMSA/Group C car. Stated out life as chassis 791.
The car raced a number of times. 1995 and 1996 at Le Mans. It also did a Donnington Park race, which it won with Stefan Johannson driving and a Petit Le Mans where I think is was second. I think it was also rolled out at Le Mans one more time and was crashed by David Murrey.
We only made two WSC 95's, one built on the 791 chassis and the other built on a brand new chassis with no previous history.


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#20 speed88

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 11:43

The Joest-Porsche double LM winner was built from TWR chassis #691. This is confirmed Leslie Thurston's book on the TWR Jaguars. I also believe Reinhold Joest has confirmed this in previous interviews.
Whatever the case, it is certainly not 791 (or 591), the only other possible options among the period raced TWR XJR14 model. 791 was sold directly by TWR's administrators in 2003 to an American collector, and prior to that 591 also went to the US. Both 591 and 791 are owned by the same American now.



I spoke with Tony and heres his definitive answer:

the Porsche we built for the 1995 season was indeed an ex IMSA/Group C car. Stated out life as chassis 791.
The car raced a number of times. 1995 and 1996 at Le Mans. It also did a Donnington Park race, which it won with Stefan Johannson driving and a Petit Le Mans where I think is was second. I think it was also rolled out at Le Mans one more time and was crashed by David Murrey.
We only made two WSC 95's, one built on the 791 chassis and the other built on a brand new chassis with no previous history.



#21 arttidesco

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 14:27

Thanks Ghinzani & Speed 88 there are obviously two strong bodies of opinion on which TWR chassis was used to make up TWR WSC95.

It looks like the only way to solve this is to photograph all the chassis plates on the known XJR 14 tubs and see which one is missing, since I imagine the original chassis plate on TWR WSC #001 was replaced ?

#22 speed88

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 15:37

Thanks Ghinzani & Speed 88 there are obviously two strong bodies of opinion on which TWR chassis was used to make up TWR WSC95.

It looks like the only way to solve this is to photograph all the chassis plates on the known XJR 14 tubs and see which one is missing, since I imagine the original chassis plate on TWR WSC #001 was replaced ?


Chassis 591 and 791 have their respective chassis plates mounted.



#23 arttidesco

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:30

Chassis 591 and 791 have their respective chassis plates mounted.


I wonder if their owner would allow them to be photographed for the sake of settling the matter of Joests TWR WSC95 #001 once and for all ?

#24 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:32

I think you'll find that these chassis plates are quite easy to remove and move around. Whatever number is on the cars now, does not necessarily prove what was on the tubs when new. Just take a look at the renumbering that took place with the earlier V12 cars.

#25 arttidesco

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:44

I think you'll find that these chassis plates are quite easy to remove and move around. Whatever number is on the cars now, does not necessarily prove what was on the tubs when new. Just take a look at the renumbering that took place with the earlier V12 cars.


There is no certainty like uncertainty :smoking:

#26 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:56

Did something similar not happen with a Jaguar becoming a Nissan?

Edited by Derwent Motorsport, 13 July 2010 - 12:56.


#27 arttidesco

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 13:33

Did something similar not happen with a Jaguar becoming a Nissan?


The TWR Ford HB V8 powered XJR 14 Jag morphed into the TWR Judd V10 powered Mazda using 5 new Astec chassis of similar design as mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, the TWR designed 3.5 litre twin turbo V8 powered Nissan R390 was based on a modified TWR V12 Jag powered XJR 15 monocoque, TWR employee Tony Southgate worked on both vehicles.

#28 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 17:20

Does the Le Mans yearbooks covering the '97 and '98 races mention what chassis numbers the cars had? I'm quite sure that the ACO on-line Le Mans page of the '99 race contained such information, although long gone by now.

Jesper