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Ferdinand Porsche / Sascha Racing Car


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#1 BertlF

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 06:28

I'm doing some research work on Ferdinand Porsche (1875-1951)and his achievments and influence on racing cars.

In 1920, during his time at Austro Daimler, he built the "Sascha Rennwagen" (1.1 l engine) for an Austrian Aristocrat, Count Alexander Kolowrat (Alexander is nicknamed 'Sascha' in German, hence the name of the car). All I could find so far was that the car participated in the 1922 Targa Florio. Could anybody give me the results?

Can somebody tell me wherelse and when this car has competed? Any results?

Tx in advance, your help is much appreciated.

BTW: How can I post a picture in a thread?

Bert

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 09:26

Bert: the Saschas were actually built in 1922, not 1920. Quintin Cloud has the full result on his site:

http://www.fortuneci...e/54/index1.htm

Alfred Neubauer drove one of the four entries and won his class. In addition, one of the cars was timed at 89mph (143.23km/h) over a kilometre.

I don't have detailed results, but I have a reference to Austro-Daimler claiming 43 wins in 1922 alone - most are probably class wins of course. There were also 1500cc and 2000cc versions, one of the latter being run at Brooklands in 1926. Malcolm Campbell apparently drove one of the 1100cc cars at Saltburn in 1922.

You'll also find some more info at 8W - a picture of Neubauer in a Sascha was part of the June 2001 game:

http://8w.forix.com/8w-601.html

#3 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 10:41

Targa Florio, april 2, 1922:

19. Alfred Neubauer (#46)
22. Gregor Kuhn/Kulm/Kula (my sources differ, and I have not yet found out which name is right. (#3)
24. Lambert Pocher/Pocker (#2)
DNF. Sascha Kolowrat (#1)

Entrant: Österreiche Daimler AG

Stefan

#4 BertlF

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 12:06

Vitesse2, Stefan

Thanks for the information! Much appreciated. I knew that the Sascha's were buildt in 1922 - typing error... I did not know that Neubauer was actually driving one of the Saschas for Austro Daimler resp. Porsche!

Anyway, after looking at Q Cloud's database, I cannot find any other entries than the Targa Florio 1922 . In the Italian GP (Monza Sept. 1922) Austro Daimler entered (with the Sascha car?). The entries at this race were withdrawn, I assume due to the fatal accident of Gregor Kuhn (?) in practice.

Has the car competed anywhere else?

Tks in advance

Bert

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 13:07

If the Italian GP entries were Saschas, they might have been the larger-engined versions - Paul Sheldon's data doesn't make it clear, but he doesn't specify Saschas. The originals ran in the Italian Voiturette GP the week before: three were entered, two started and they finished 6th and 7th out of seven finishers:

1 Pietro Bordino (Fiat 502SS) 60 laps 4hrs28min38.6sec
2 Enrico Giaccone (Fiat 502SS) 4hrs34min12.0
3 Evasio Lampiano (Fiat 502SS) 4hrs34min12.4
4 Carlo Salamano (Fiat 502SS) 4hrs35min48.4
5 Ramassoto (Chiribiri 12/16) 5hrs30min38.0
6 Haiden (Austro-Daimler Sascha) 6hrs12min 52.0
7 Lambert Pocher (Austro-Daimler Sascha) 6h42min30.0

Neubauer and Pocher were entered for the 1922 Penya Rhin GP, but DNA.

The Saschas don't seem to have raced anywhere significant after that, but in view of the hammering they got from the Fiats, I don't find that entirely surprising!

#6 BertlF

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Posted 29 September 2001 - 15:08

Vitesse,

thanks for the information. Is there some site on the web/source where I can look up entries/results for the Brooklands race 1926 resp. Saltburn 1922?

Tx in advance

Bert

#7 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 29 September 2001 - 23:47

Three months ago, on the occasion of the 8W contest, I wrote the following:

The origin of the Sascha dates back to September 1921, when Ferdinand Porsche, Technical Director at Austro-Daimler in Wien-Neustadt, went with his friend Alexander “Sascha” Count Kolowrat to the Brescia road race where they studied with great interest the latest 1.5-liter Bugatti T13. Called “Sascha” by his many friends, the very wealthy count was no stranger to racing. After spending his early years as bicycle touring and artistic driver, he started racing motorcycles when 21 at Austria’s Semmering and Riederberg-Rennen and between 1905 and 1907 won several first prizes. At that time he was using occasionally the pseudonym “Klatowsky”. In 1908 he changed over to touring cars and did not just race for his own enjoyment but contributed useful suggestions while driving for Laurin & Klement, a Czechoslovakian company, where he was also on the board of directors. In 1912, at a time when there was mostly acetylene headlamp in use, Count Kolowrat together with A. v. Nenegyai produced a new acetylene-oxygen-chalk-light, which had at that time already a similar illuminating power like the electrical head lights used 15 years later. Because Kolowrat was an excellent driver who was always well prepared and hard fighting, he remained almost always victorious or ended up at one of the front places. He participated at the Rally Monte Carlo in the winter as well as little races in France and Brooklands in England to establish records for his company. He also learned how to fly and made the Austrian pilot license. The war interrupted his motor sport activities. He enlisted as lieutenant where he received soon recognition and was promoted to first lieutenant. After WW I, Count Kolowrat settled in Austria and tried to convince Porsche with the idea of building a small car.

At the Austro-Daimler factory in Wien-Neustadt, the General Director Fischer wanted only large cars with huge engines for export. While at Laurin & Klement, Count Kolowrat had pursued small cars and like his friend Ferdinand Porsche, he wanted small sports or racing cars with high revving engines. When Fischer did not want to finance such a project, Count Kolowrat had Austro-Daimler manufacture such a car for him with his own money under the name “Sascha”. Before building the actual car for the public, it was decided to first build four prototypes to be tested in racing.

So, Porsche, who up until then had only designed large cars and engines, occupied himself after the 1921 Brescia race with the design and development of the ADS, a small 2-seater car, the future Sascha, which was to become one of Porsches finest designs in the 1500-cc class. Based on other designs, in the very short time of only six month, he built and developed the car, which had a straight 4-cylinder engine with 68 mm bore and 75 mm stroke, resulting in a capacity of 1098 cc with one overhead camshaft and a total weight of 775 kg. At that time it was a small and light car but not light enough and not efficient enough to participate successfully at large races. Further development brought the car’s weight down to 598 kg and provided the engine with two overhead camshafts, enabling a speed of 145 km/h. That was for the type ADSR, which was followed with a 1500 cc version later on.

Initially only four 1.1-liter Sascha racing cars were built in this very short period to have them mechanically ready for the 1922 Targa Florio in April. The unfinished cars were hastily loaded onto the train, were finish painted on the railroad car and arrived with a fresh paintjob completed at the Italian border. The race was known to be a very tough test for car and drivers alike. Fritz Kuhn, Lambert Pöcher, Count Alexander Kolowrat and Alfred Neubauer were to drive those four cars. This was Alfred Neubauer’s first race.

At the Targa Florio, each Sascha car carried a sign corresponding to a suit of cards. On Sunday morning, 2 April, under a cloudless sky, the cars were started in two-minute intervals for the thirteenth Targa Florio. The twisting, mountainous dirt road circuit of 108 km had to be lapped four times. Neubauer, with starting number 46, was the last to take the start and had 41 cars ahead of him. The road contained numerous potholes, tons of loose dust and rubble, shaking each car and driver severely. After the long drive through the mountains, the ten km straight stretch of road along the coast did not bring relief. Instead, the surface consisted of a continuous series of deep potholes and small craters, which required all strength and concentration by the driver to just keep the car on the road. During his entire race, which lasted over seven hours, Neubauer did not see any of his adversaries. At the end of each lap Neubauer was happy to stop his car in one piece at his depot because his tires were torn to ribbons.

After 432 km and 6h50m50.4s, the winner was Count Masettti on the 4.5-liter, privately owned, red Grand Prix Mercedes from 1914. Goux in the Ballot, followed just 1m47.6s behind in second place, Foresti’s Ballot third and Ascari in an Alfa Romeo ES fourth. But the fantastic performance of the 1.1-liter Saschas was very obvious. Kuhn and Pöcher placed 22nd and 24th respectively but won their sports car class, while Neubauer, who had been entered in the racing car class, won his class and placed 19th overall after completing the four laps in 7h49m54.6s. Only Count Kolowrat had to retire at the beginning of this race on lap one. This brand new design of the 1100 cc Sascha had proven to be fast and reliable. Ferdinand Porsche and Count Kolowrat were extremely happy about the outcome. While the winner Masetti with the 4.5-liter Mercedes had averaged 59 km/h, Neubauer in the 1.1-liter Sascha averaged 52 km/h, so he was just a little bit slower with the tiny cycle car.

Further victories for the little Sascha were captured 1922 in Spain at the Armanguez-Trophy race, which ended in great tragedy when a French car went in the crowd, killing over 20 spectators. Pöcher won at the August Spa meeting and at small events like the Rießbergrennen, Semmering and Riedbergrennen. Karl Bettaque, the Austro-Daimler shop engineer drove on occasions the 1.5-liter Sascha, while Neubauer, Kuhn and Pöcher won with the 1098 cc car.

The Sascha project was killed soon when the Austro-Daimler company encountered financial problems end of 1922. Porsche had a heated debate with the top finance man, resigned his position and walked out of the board meeting. He next went to Mercedes in Stuttgart to become their Chief Designer after Paul Daimler had left for the Horch factory. Neubauer followed Porsche to Germany to work for Mercedes, first as a driver but later to became the world famous team manager for the Mercedes-Benz Racing team in 1926. He was to remain racing manager also during the years 1954 and 1955. Ferdinand Porsche compared Neubauer often with Count Kolowrat in character and body size. After he had stopped racing, Alexander “Sascha” Count Kolowrat, who was married to princess Sophie Trubetzkoi, spent his entire time managing his Sascha Film A.G., which he had founded after WW I. They carried his name through the film theaters of the documentary world. After a malignant illness, he died on 5 October 1927 when only 42 years old. Ferdinand Porsche who came from Bohemia in Czechoslovakia, started his own design company in 1928 after he split with Daimler-Benz. His most famous designs were the Mercedes-Benz SSK, the Auto Union Grand Prix car and the Volkswagen. After WW II, he suffered a stroke and died at 75 on 30 January, 1952. His countryman Alfred Neubauer died at the night from 21 to the 22 August 1980, when 90 years old.

#8 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 29 September 2001 - 23:51

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
.....Gregor Kuhn/Kulm/Kula (my sources differ, and I have not yet found out which name is right.....

Fritz Kuhn is the correct name.

#9 BertlF

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 10:10

Hans,

wow, thanks for that abundance of information. I wasn't hoping on that much.... May I humbly ask where you've acquired all this? Do you have access to some archives?

I've seen the Sascha in the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart. Are there any other surviving cars?

Since I'm Austrian from the surroundings of F. Porsche's places of work, I'm really impressed by his achievements and try to track some of his traces...

Bert

#10 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 14:33

Sources for my story:
1. Ferry Porsche, We at Porsche, pg. 16-17 Kolowrat and Sascha
2. Automobil Chronik 1972, No. 1, pg. 29-30 Sascha picture
3. Automobil Chronik 1972, No. 9, pg. 20-21, Sascha story
4. Automobil Chronik 1980, No. 10, pg. 10 Alfred Neubauer
5. Alfred Neubauer, Männer, Frauen und Motoren, pg.28-48 (Count Kolowrat)
6. Automobil Chronik 1976, No. 6, pg. 16,17, 32 Alfred Neubauer
7. Tragatsch, Das grosse Sport- und Rennwagenbuch, pg. 45-46,
8. AAZ (A) 1927, No.24, pg.54: Alexander Graf Kolowrat †

I don't know about the fate of the Sascha cars.

#11 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 22:18

After spending his early years as bicycle touring and artistic driver


What is that?

At the Targa Florio, each Sascha car carried a sign corresponding to a suit of cards.


Just like the 908/3s in the 1970 Targa Florio!

#12 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 23:51

Roger,
I can only assume that an artistic or acrobatic bicycle driver performed similar acts usually shown in circus shows.

I forgot that the 1970 Porsche 908/3 Spyders utilized the same identification system. Karl Ludvigsen wrote the following in his 1977 masterpiece PORSCHE Excellence Was Expected and I hope Karl won't object if I display this paragraph without obtaining his permission first. ;)

“In 1970 the racing Porsches were blooming in lavish displays of color, and when the four 908/03’s appeared they were magnets for the photographers. Their dazzling paint jobs were the work of Porsche’s Styling Department, which was headed by Butzi Porsche and newly managed by Anatole Lapine, a former GM and Opel designer. The two men gave their new young stylists a chance to flex their creative muscles with the paint schemes for the 908/03’s, which used the basic blue and orange of their sponsor, Gulf, to form bold patterns of forward-thrusting arrows. Each had a different design. Lapine’s keen sense of automotive history showed in the emblems of the four different playing card suits that were used, at the lower front corner, to identify each car. The same emblems had been used to distinguish the entries of the Porsche-designed Austro-Daimler Saschas in the Targa Florio of 1922.”

#13 karlcars

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Posted 22 October 2001 - 21:17

Please feel free to quote me any time, Hans! You always provide attribution, unlike some authors I could mention. :D

#14 TWOCATS

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 12:41

Dear Friends, as this is an old topic, I do not know if all the members will be reading...

 

I always liked too much the Austro Daimler Sascha and as a modeler, and kit maker, I would like to build one of that in 1:12 scale, and resin kits in 1:24 scale. My recent looking for some references about the Sascha brings me to this topic and I did my register. I also created a pege in FB about the "Austro Daimler Sascha" and my works are on.

 

I started a drawing, based on one I found in the web, but some difficyult specs of the car. Wheelbase, width, ground clearance, etc... All those could be fixed from a starting point I have already: the tyres. But even, I do not know if they are ecxact for the 1:24 scale.

 

I would apreciate if someone here have some information about these dimensions once a good model, as I would like to build, needs a good accuracy.

 

I thank you very much.


Edited by TWOCATS, 20 November 2014 - 12:41.


#15 fbarrett

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 17:23

You might also check Karl's book Ferdinand Porsche, Genesis of Genius.

 

Frank