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Why do Schumacher fans hate Damon Hill?


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#1 crouchyaj

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Posted 30 October 2001 - 22:52

Just wondering why MS fans so hate Hill, we all know and understand why Hill fans can hate MS (I'm not saying all do but why they would).

But there seems to be no real logic in it the other way around unless they are merely copying MS's own distaste for Hill.

Even JV fans admit that Hill would posibly have won the WDC in 97 if he'd stayed at Williams but MS fans can't seem to fathom that answer, and according to this thread MS would have romped it in as a result :confused: .

I for one absolutely can't stand MS (or RS for that matter after this year) but will quite readily admit that MS is one of the greatest drvers in the history of F1.

As for Hill, people seem to forget that he finished faily respectfully against Prost in what was essentially his first real year in F1 (no one can say that 92 was a real year racing for Brabham with only 2 GP starts), and appeared to be doing the same against Senna. These are 2 of the greatest if not the 2 greatest drivers in the history of F1.

So MS fans what is it huh :confused: , and please make a logical response.

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#2 Robbie

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Posted 30 October 2001 - 23:22

Good post: here are my efforts to answer.

Originally posted by crouchyaj
Just wondering why MS fans so hate Hill, we all know and understand why Hill fans can hate MS (I'm not saying all do but why they would).


I was a big MS fan in the DH rivalry days, and I was against DH. I really felt that MS deserved to be WDC and the only thing stopping him was DH in a super car. It didn't seem fair. But I know that I didn't give DH the credit he deserved.

But there seems to be no real logic in it the other way around unless they are merely copying MS's own distaste for Hill.


See above, and, yes, I probably did tend to accept much of what MS said about DH: it often helped to explain why a driver who seemed inferior (let's be honest, he was) was doing well against our hero.

Even JV fans admit that Hill would possibly have won the WDC in 97 if he'd stayed at Williams but MS fans can't seem to fathom that answer, and according to this thread MS would have romped it in as a result :confused: .


I wouldn't say "romped home". In fact, what I say is that JV and DH would have eroded each other's chances of a win, and MS would probably have squeezed in (he was close as it was).

I for one absolutely can't stand MS (or RS for that matter after this year) but will quite readily admit that MS is one of the greatest drivers in the history of F1.


DH's stats whilst at Williams are remarkable. But after that he was rapidly to become an embarrassment. BTW, I can't stand RS either.

As for Hill, people seem to forget that he finished fairly respectfully against Prost in what was essentially his first real year in F1 (no one can say that 92 was a real year racing for Brabham with only 2 GP starts), and appeared to be doing the same against Senna. These are 2 of the greatest if not the 2 greatest drivers in the history of F1.


DH was fast: but Prost's final WDC was ridiculously easy; all his skills and experience combinded with the car made the WDC a forgone conclusion the minute he signed the contract. DH had been test-driver and knew the car very well. It is worth pointing out that DC was pretty quick almost immediately in the Williams of the same era.

So MS fans what is it huh :confused: , and please make a logical response.


Logic, crouchyaj? This is sport, my friend.

#3 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 06:36

Originally posted by Robbie
DH's stats whilst at Williams are remarkable. But after that he was rapidly to become an embarrassment. BTW, I can't stand RS either.

Robbie, I can't see how much an embarrassment he actually was. He made both in 1997 and 1998 years alone, not combined, but each year alone than Jacques has made in histhree years in bar - three second row qualifications (Hungary, Jerez 1997 and Spa 1998) and a win and a pretty good challenge for win. Remember, the car he drove at 1997 was struggling to make to the grid at Australia 1997. By logic of some Schumacher fans (I hope that you are one not of them, but there are allot of them) who tend to measure cars seasonal worth based on the grid positions and gaps in the race in Australia, we could say which much easiness that Damon actually challenged for a win in the worst car of the grid - how's that for an embarrassment?

Also, Damon made, with positively worse cars, more of his 1997 and 1998 seasons than Häkkinen, a man who's ability pretty much noone questions, ever was able to make prior the 1997 season. Until then, Häkkinen never actually had lead a race on merit with a McLaren, Hill did it in an Arrows. No, McLaren back then wasn't the car it became later but it was never as bad a car as the Arrows of 1997 was.

Yes, one other thing. At 1998 Hill won, yes, won as many races as David Coulthard did. I wouldn't be embarrassed a bit over this kind of a result.

What I think pisses many people off, is the way some Michael Schumacher fans tend to measure other driver - like Michael is the only 'normal' driver out there and the others are very bad. Like - if you are not Michael Schumacher, you are full of ****. And they are so arrogant in this - like it's them who are Michael Schumachers and the rest of the world are just mere mortals. The irony in all things life is that Michael himself never is so arrogantly patronizing over Hill or the rest of the drivers - on their later days they got on very well. I think that compared to Hill himself these people seem rather small and petty with this kind of behaviour... if you remember that of all the grand prix drivers it was Damon that went to see Michael at one particular July Monday in 1999.

#4 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 06:57

Damon Hill suffered from Mansellanoma - he was perceived as a whinger and a drama queen. To a large extent, he was - although not nearly as bad as Mansell. On the other hand, he wasn't as good a racer as Mansell, but that's a bit unfair I suppose - as Hill came into F1 at a very late age and had a very short window of opportunity.

It also has to be said that as good as Hill was - and I don't think he was bad - he wasn't anywhere near the league of Michael Schumacher. He found himself put on the same footing with Schumacher in an artificially-created situation, and I think that irritated a lot of MS fans, the fact that it was constantly a matter of comparing Hill to MS where the comparison to begin with unbalanced.

Personally, I couldn't stand Hill because I met him on a few occasions over the years and simply did not gell well with him. Like I said, he was a drama queen and was often very unpleasant to deal with. For the record, though, I do know of other journalists who had the exact opposite experience with him. There's an overall concensus, though, that he's one of the most intelligent drivers to have come and gone through F1 over the past few years.

I'm trying to rack my brains, btw, and maybe someone here can help me, but what was that famous headline in the Telegraph that got Hill tagged as 'whinger' for years after?

#5 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 06:59

Ah, I remember now. It was an article about Damon Hill in the Evening Standard and the title was "The Formula One Whinger".

Doesn't get more painful that that, I suppose.

#6 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 07:12

Originally posted by bira
Personally, I couldn't stand Hill because I met him on a few occasions over the years and simply did not gell well with him. Like I said, he was a drama queen and was often very unpleasant to deal with. For the record, though, I do know of other journalists who had the exact opposite experience with him. There's an overall concensus, though, that he's one of the most intelligent drivers to have come and gone through F1 over the past few years.

I actually believe the second version too - that Hill was very much able to get on well with people, Hill was considered as a hilarious guy and was very much a clown of the paddock himself aswell. Also Michael was being considered as a rather dull guy with no sense of humour. I mean, some people just don't click, perhaps that was the case with you and him. The flipside to this is, what the hell do I know, you've met both of these dudes, I watch them on TV...

About Hill's intelligence - you just have to read his books to get the grasp of how much thought Hill put on things - you can't miss it there.

#7 Samurai

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 07:18

ForceTen :up:



bira I don't remember that article... :cry: (I live in Japan, so no wonder maybe though)
I don't really got an impression that Hill was especially a "Whinger" among the assorted F1 drivers (he did get a lot of media coverage though, so this might be a factor).
I've heard a lot of excuses spouted when things weren't going perfectly from Schumi, DC, just about all the prominent drivers.

I noticed though that Damon generated a lot of special loyalty from the people (engineers etc. from high rank to low rank) he worked with, without relying on glamour and big bucks,
so this might tell us something positive though.



O.K. easy answer to this:
Why do Schumacher fans hate Damon Hill? ----


guilty consciences...

;)

#8 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 07:26

I'm tempted to trash your response Sammy, but I won't :p

Force Ten: as far as personality goes, Schumacher is quite shallow really. Hill is more a complicated, deep thinker.

I always said that if I had to select someone to take with me to a deserted island, it would be Jacques Villeneve - I like his way of life and perception of fun mixed with intelligence and provocation.

If I had to select someone to partner with in university, it would be Damon Hill - no doubt he can philosophyse and analyse, not to mention articulate himself brilliantly.

And, if I had to take select someone to simply watch racing, it would be Michael Schumacher :D

And, if I had to take someone that has to fit all of the above, it would have to be Mika Hakkinen

:smoking:

#9 Samurai

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 07:40

Originally posted by bira
I'm tempted to trash your response Sammy, but I won't :p

bira :)
I'm sweating here in the Far East!!!! :|
;)


O.K. I've post it before (and it's rather long) but this following excerpt of what Damon wrote on the sad events at Imola '94 :cry:,
I think agree with what bira wrote about DH being a thoughtful man. (I'd like to watch some races with him! :up: )


*******************************************
THE BLACK WEEKEND
San Marino Grand Prix, 1994

Told by:

Damon Hill


---------------------------------------
The first shock came when Rubens Barrichello crashed during the opening qnalifing session at Imola. He lost control of his Jordan coming trough the last chicane, probably at around 140 mph, and didn't have time to correct the car. He shot over a kerb, which lannched him into the air and then sent the Jordan barrel- rolling along the tyre barrier.
What shook us most was the rate at which the car took off; at one stage it looked as if it was going to smash trough the fence and fly into the grandstand. The Jordan, more by luck than anything else, finished on its side, upside down and against the barrier. That was bad enongh but the marshals promptly tipped the car over and, as it crashed on to its bottom, yon could see Barrichello's head thrashing around in the cockpit.
I was astonished that the marshals should have done that, particularly in view of the neck and spinal injuries received by J.J. Lehto and Jean Alesi dnring test sessions earlier in the year. After an accident like that, Barrichello could have sustained similar injuries. He should have been left as he was or, if there was a risk of fire, then at least the car should have been put down gently.
The next day, Rubens was walking around the paddock with nothing more than a cut lip and a broken nose. He was talking about making a come-back at the next race. The incident, despite its worrying implications, was gradually forgotten as Grand Prix racing got back down to business. In our case, that meant continuing our efforts to improve the Williams FWl6.
Despite having tested at Nogaro in the sonth-west of France during the days leading up to Imola, we were still concerned about FWl6. There had been a certain amount of educated guesswork and, while everyone tried to be optimistic, Ayrton and I were sceptical; we conldn't honestly say that the car was going to be any better than it had been.
The problem was, in essence, two-fold. First, the car was not consistently qnicker than the Benetton and, second, it felt horrible to drive. It is arguable as to which of the two problems made Ayrton and myself more unhappy, but it was most probably the former.
We were always changing the set-up of the car in an attempt to find that perfect combination which would turn the promise of a great car into a reality. What we wanted from the FWl6 was a feeling of balance and drive-ability. These are the conditions which enable a driver to enjoy the experience of driving and, consequently, go faster. It is difflcnlt to become familiar with a car if it is constantly being changed in an attempt to get good performance - it becomes a vicions circle.
Ayrton, however, had enormons reserves of ability and could overcome deficiencies in a chassis. Also, it is more common to have a car which is difflcult than one which is perfect. So, in some ways, things were as they should have been at Imola.
It was a pleasant surprise to find on the first day of practice that things had improved slightly. I was looking forward to really making some progress with the car even though I had one or two nerve-racking moments when I had to take to the grass because of a difficulty with the brakes. Patrick Head pointed out that, if there was a way of doing things wrong, then I appeared to be doing it! I was suitably chastened by his dressing down although I felt better at the end of the day when it was discovered that there had indeed been a problem with my car. I had gone off at the final corner and damaged the suspension. By the time repairs had been carried out, there were just ten minutes of the first qualifying session remaining and I only managed seventh place on the provisional grid. Even so, I still felt good about the Williams although I can't honestly say that Ayrton shared my optimism; he was not convinced we were going in the right direction. In other words, he didn't like certain aspects of the car's behaviour. But then he was a perfectionist.
A lot of thought was put into the set-up and, on Saturday, the car really was much better. On my first quick laps during qualiffting, I managed to pull myself up to fourth place. It had been a decent run and I was on my way in when I came across warning flags at the end of the 200 mph straight. I got to Tosa corner, only to be confronted by the remains of Roland Ratzenberger's Simtek. I could see where the debris had started and, judging by the distance travelled, it was obvious that this had been a very big accident. As I went by, I had a strong sense of foreboding about his condition because there was so much destruction. With Barrichello we had been lucky. This time it was very clear that poor Roland was not going to be let off so lightly. And, unbeknown to everyone, this was to be the start of a terrible sequence of events which would demonstrate in no uncertain terms the inherent dangers of the sport.
Practice was stopped. Ayrton went down to the site of the accident because he wanted to see for himself what had happened. He had done it before when Martin Dounelly crashed at Jerez in 1990 and I believe it is every driver's right to do that sort of thing if they wish. Personally, I would rather not. I had been present at Goodwood during a Formula Three test session in February 1986 when Bertrand Fabi was killed and I had no wish to see anything like that again. Anyway, Ayrton chose to go to Tosa. Everyone was terribly concerned for Roland; the feeling was that he was in a bad way. When Ayrton returned, he spoke to Patrick and me in private at the side of the motorhome. He said quite simply that Roland was dead. It was his way of getting the point across to us as deliberately as possible that from what he had witnessed there was no doubt about it. Then he went into the motorhome and changed out of his driving overalls even though the session was about to re-start.
I could not decide what the right thing to do should be; stop like Ayrton or soldier on? I wished the officials had cancelled the rest of the session so as to remove that particular dilemma. It had been left to me to decide whether or not I wished to go out again. You are immediately confronted with the question, `Do I get back into a racing car now - tomorrow - a week later - or never again?' Just how do you decide?
It's not as if racing drivers don't know that fatal accidents are a possibility. If a driver does not accept that fact, if he is completely and utterly shocked by an accident like Ratzenberger's, so much so that he cannot get back in a racing car, then he has been deluding himself about the danger up until that point.
Of course, racing drivers are not that stupid. But, when confronted with something like this, you are facing a severe and immediate test of whether or not you are prepared to accept the risk. Roland had said he was never as happy as when he got his Formula One drive. It's what he wanted to do. It's what a lot of people want to do and many never get the opportunity. Even so, that does not make situations such as this any easier to accept.
Everyone was deeply affected by Roland's death. Williams and Benetton withdrew for the rest of the afternoon; others decided to continue with the session. But the question everyone was asking was, `Why did Roland die?' There was concern that we had got to the point where the inherent risks in Formula One had become greater because of certain factors such as the speed of the cars and their increasing ability to withstand impacts. Something has to give and, in the light of recent accidents, it was turning out to be the driver. Had we reached the totally unacceptable stage where, if a car was going to hit a wall then the driver was going to die? Ironically, in the light of what would happen the following day, Ayrton went to talk with other drivers and people such as Niki Lauda, who had been involved in a horrific accident in 1976. They wanted to know what could be done - and done immediately - about safety. It was agreed that the drivers should meet and discuss these matters, probably at Monaco in two weeks' time.
The mood that night was sombre to say the least. I stayed at the circuit, ate at the motorhome and generally found it difficult to think of much else but the accident. I tried to concentrate hard on what we were going to do for the race. My thoughts were, `Look, I'm not going to stop racing; I'm looking forward to the Grand Prix. I enjoy my motor racing just as Roland did. Every second you are alive, you've got to be thankftil and derive as much pleasure from it as you can.' In some ways, events that afternoon had been a spur, a reminder not to become complacent. It prompted me to be as positive as I could, look forward to the race and pray that something could be done to prevent such things happening again. It was to be a short-lived hope.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the cars went out for the warm-up on race morning, it was the first time I had been on the circuit since knowing the outcome of Roland's accident. It was terriffting to go past the point where he had crashed. You could suddenly imagine the force of the impact because you were actually travelling at the same speed he had been doing before he went off.
Under normal circurnstances, you wouldn't give it a second thought because, even though speeds reach 200 mph, it is not a part of the circuit where you come close to the limit; it is not a place you would worry about. You are relying entirely on the car and, in the light of Roland's accident (probably caused by a failure of the nose wing mounting), it brings it home that sometimes you are just a passenger, putting your faith in the components.
Drivers can accept the penalty of making a mistake; there is always the hope that they can do something about retrieving the situation and that the penalty is not too severe. At least it's their mistake. However, it feels very uncomfortable placing all your trust in the machinery - but there is no alternative. It is rather like being on an aeroplane; you are at the mercy of the pilot and the integrity of the equipment. You are powerless to do anything about your situation. At least I had the consolation of driving for Williams Grand Prix Engineering. I knew they would always do the best job possible.
I knew, too, that Ayrton was out to dominate proceedings on race day. He had been fastest during the warm-up and I was next, 9/l0ths of a second slower. I was happy with the car and I knew exactly what I'd had to do to set that time. So it was clear that Ayrton must have tried very hard indeed to set his time. It seemed to me that my team-mate was playing a psychological game here because, when you know that someone is almost a second a lap faster, it can demoralize you before the race has even started. I was not too worried because I was happy with the pace I was running at; I knew I could keep that up throughout the race whereas I didn't think Ayrton could. It was going to be a very interesting race.
All of this kept my mind focused on the job but, when we went to the pre-race drivers' briefing, the previous day's tragedy proved to be just beneath the surface of everyone's consciousness. There was a minute's silence for Roland and the atmosphere was heavy with more than the usual pre-race tension. The talk of a drivers' meeting about safety to take place before Monaco rang alarm bells with the Formula One organizers. Whenever drivers group together there is the potential for trouble. Well, we were all together now, in the pre-race drivers' briefing as usual, and we weren't happy.
But there was very little that could actually be achieved right then. Gerhard Berger raised one seemingly insignificant but relevant point about safety. But what he did not reveal was that he had put up to it by Senna. Ayrton didn't want to be the first to raise the point for fear of appearing to be the only person concerned about the problem, yet, typically, it was he who pressed it home. One of the things which had upset Ayrton in Japan had been the introduction of a pace car during the final parade lap leading to the start. He felt that it was nothing more than a gimmick and contributed nothing else than making the cars run far too slowly and therefore less able to put heat into their tyres. When other drivers backed him up, the officials agreed without hesitation to abandon that idea. A small victory had been won, but it was nonetheless significant.
This was evidence of a failure to consult the drivers on important issues. There are certain matters which only the drivers are qualified to comment on an this strenghtened the view that we should get together and express our fears in an attempt to have things changed and make the racing a little bit safer.
As the race approached, I'm sure most drivers were able to put those thoughts to the back of their minds. I think everyone felt -as they had done for the previous twelve years- that the dangers had been reduced considerably, to the point where death was but a slim possibility. And, in the aftermath, it was felt that Roland's crash had been one accident in a decade and it was unlikely to happen again for a while. You could claim that it is stupid to act like that. But that's the way people think.
In any case, I'm sure Ayrton had other things to occupy him at this stage. Pressure had been coming from all directions. The media had been making a point about how the winner at Imola nearly always goes on to take the championship; that Ayrton had failed to score a single point in the first two races (something he had never experienced before in his ten years in Formula One); that Michael Schurnacher was the coming man and had a twenty-point lead over Ayrton; that this was a crucial race because Schurnacher and Benetton were favourites to win the next round at Monaco. I think all of that had impressed itself upon Ayrton. The warm-up had shown he was in a fighting mood. He had pole position and he was raring to turn the tide.
Some people have attempted to infer that Ajton was not in the right frame of mind for the race, but I cannot say anything more than that, to me, he seemed tota11y focused. It must have been difficult completely to ignore the events of the day before, even for a man such as Ayrton, but when a race is about to start your mind can be on one thing only - winning.
Sure enough, he made a good start but we only got as far as the Acque Minerali chicane at the top of the circuit when the red flags came out and there were signs that the safety car was being brought into play. The safety car had been a fairly recent innovation, a means of slowing the cars as it formed behind an official car and circulated at reduced pace until whatever problem on the track had been sorted out. In this case, when we got to the start/finish area, we could see there had been a collision.
J.J. Lehto, starting from the second row, had stalled and had been hit from behind by Pedro Lamy who had performed some sort of extraordinary manoeuvre from the penultimate row and crashed into the back of the Benetton. I had been warned on the radio that there was a lot of wreckage on the track but I was not aware that a wheel and parts of a car had cleared the fence and gone into the enclosure, injuring a nurnber of spectators. There was debris everywhere and it was difficult to avoid it, which was a worry.
The aim of the safety car is to keep the show going without bringing the race to a complete halt. But my feeling was that this should only have applied during a race once it was up and running. In this case, we hadn't even done a fill lap at racing speed and it was difficult to see why the race could not have been stopped and re-started, as permitted by the rules. The net result was that we were forced to go round at what can only be described as a snail's pace for five laps. Anyone who has worked with Ayrton will tell you how much time and effort he put in to making sure his tyre pressures were absolutely right. I'm not exaggerating when I say that he could tell, to within half a pound psi, whether the car was balanced or not. This is a critical area because every racing car is sensitive to tyre pressures. While we wait on the grid during the final fifteen minutes or so, the tyres are wrapped in electric warmers and these ensure that the temperatures are maintained, even during the minute or so after the blankets have been removed and we wait for the green flag.
But the problem is that, during the subsequent parade lap, the pressures and temperatures drop due to the fact that you are not running quickly enough to generate sufficient heat in the rubber.
And, as Ayrton had pointed out, this business of running the Porsche pace car in Japan only made matters worse.
During the first few laps of the race, therefore, the car does not handle particularly well until the heat gets back into the tyres and the pressures come up. And at Imola, the problem was compounded when we had to do five laps behind the safety car. Certainly, my car was more difficult to drive than usual during those first few laps after the re-start.
To be honest, I hadn't helped matters by messing up the re-start slightly when the safety car pulled off. It so happened that, on the two occasions when the safety car had been used in the past, I had been leading. The trick is to drop back and give yourself a free run once the car disappears but, when you are in traffic, as I was at Imola, it is not possible to see exactly where the safety car is. It is best to stick with the guys in front but, in this instance, I had dropped back too much and, when Ayrton and Michael took off at the re-start, I was already about five seconds behind.
But I had learned an important lesson. At Imola, there is a tight chicane just before the start/finish straight. When I slowed for the chicane, the brakes and the tyres were cold. I locked up my left-front wheel and, for a terrible moment, I thought I was going to slide off the road before I had even started the first flying lap. That alerted me to the problem caused by the five slow laps behind the official car.
I spent the first lap trying to cope with the car and concentrating on catching Gerhard Berger's Ferrari ahead of me in third place. I could see up ahead that Ayrton was leading Michael and they were quite close. There is no question that Ayrton was highly motivated to beat Michael and I'm sure he was finding it frustrating not to be pulling away during those first few laps.
When I came through Tamburello for the second time, there was dust and debris and a car going sideways across the grass. I could see that it was Ayrton. At the time, I was busy dodging wheels and a nose wing that was flying through the air. I was pretty occupied as I went by but, once I'd got past the scene of the accident, I was concerned for Ayrton's safety. It had obviously been a very big shunt; you don't have a small one on that corner. My initial thoughts were that Ayrton and Michael had tangled and one of them had been pushed off.
The race had been stopped and we pulled up at the pit lane entrance. Everyone was asking about what had happened but we had no information. One report suggested Ayrton had been moving. Then they said he was out of the car. But, either way, it was very possible that he was seriously hurt.
I was anxious to find out precisely what had taken place. And why. I went over to Michael Schurnacher and asked him what he had seen. He explained that Ayrton's car had been bottoming a lot and he'd almost lost it at Tamburello on the previous lap. In his opinion, the same thing had happened again but, this time, Ayrton didn't catch it and went off. I asked Michael if he had seen any hint of trouble, perhaps with the suspension, or the tyres; something like that. He said he hadn't seen any problems at all.
I took all of that on board and made a note to be careful in the early stages when the tyre pressures might be low and perhaps the car is bottoming too much. But I still knew nothing about Ayrton's condition. It is one of the less savoury aspects of motor racing that it is not considered to be a good idea to tell the whole truth at the time of an accident in order to get the show over with and send people home none the wiser. Slowly, however, word trickled through that Ayrton's condition was quite serious.
I just couldn't believe that this was happening. I thought that perhaps he'd hurt himself badly and he would be out for a couple of races. That was as much as I knew; that was as much as I would allow myself to think. I tried to concentrate on the race and motivate myself with the thought that it was very important that I get a result for the team. There was nothing I could do about Ayrton. The only thing was to do my job to the best of my ability.
Despite making a reasonable start, that plan was wrecked half-way round the first lap as I tried to take second place off Schurnacher. He was trying to get past Gerhard Berger and I don't think he realized I was so close. The Benetton chopped straight across in front of me and accidentally took a nose wing off. That meant a pit stop for a replacement and the task of rejoining at the back of the field. It sounds callous, perhaps, but my thoughts were either, `Things just aren't going our way this year', or `My God, this just gets worse Throughout the race, I just kept thinking that this was a job which had to be done.
Nothing more than that. Much as I felt like it, there was no way I was going to pull in because that would have been completely the wrong thing to do. The only answer was to try to better the situation the team found themselves in and get the best result I could. Looking at it coldly, it was what I was paid to do and that was about as much enjoyment as I got out of it. One point for sixth place was hardly brilliant. It was something after a climb from last place - but what value was that in the context of everything which had happened over the weekend?
I was pretty shattered by the end of the race. I spoke to Frank and he explained that Ayrton was not in good shape. I just wanted to get away from the circuit; just get in the car and go. Georgie and I could have had a lift in the helicopter if we wanted to wait. But I just wanted to leave as soon as possible.
We did that, even though it meant sitting in a traffic jam for ages. We missed our first flight but I was only worried about how Ayrton was going to pull through all of this. When we reached the airport a member of the team was waiting to tell us that Ayrton was dead.

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I had briefly considered that as a possibility but put the thought out of my mind by reflecting on what I had learned about his condition. I had been told that he had serious head injuries and it seemed likely to me that he might never drive again. But that's about as far as my thinking had gone. To learn that he was dead was like having someone turn off your power supply. I was completely shaken; totally shattered.
Georgie and I drove off and stopped at a restaurant where we sat down to think about it all. And you ask yourself over and over again, `Is it worth it?' That's the bottom line at the end of a weekend like this; always the same question, `Is it worth it?'
It was not a new sensation for me. I can remember playing in the front room at home when the newsflash came through that Jim Clark had been killed. I knew that he was my Dad's friend and, when my Mum came into the room, I could see she was shocked. I didn't really understand what had happened. But I knew it was bad.
Throughout that period of my life there were occasions when my father had to go to the fimerals of friends. It was, without wishing to sound macabre, a gradual introduction to the reality of motor sport, admittedly at a time when the safety standards were nothing like they are now. I remember thinking, `Hang on, why is Dad doing this? It doesn't make sense.'
And yet he carried on. He did not give up because of the accidents and he drove through what was probably one of the most dangerous periods of Grand Prix racing. The irony was, of course, that he did not actually die in a racing car. And that itself was something which I had to cope with. He raced cars, faced the obvious dangers and yet he died in an aeroplane. Where was the logic in that? It was part of the learning process where I discovered that bad things happen in life, even if you don't put yourself at risk. Horrible things occur all the time. To me, it seems the real tragedy would be to stop doing something you enjoy. There is no reward without risk. James Hunt died of a heart attack and yet who is to say that he did not live more, cram more into his forty-six years than most people manage in a lifetime? I don't pretend to know the answer.
Probably the easiest thing is to do is carry on and convince yourself that you're doing the right thing. So I forced myself as much as possible to think about giving up and doing something else. Nothing definite sprang to mind but I knew I could do all the things which I had been forced to abandon for the sake of motor racing; weekends off, skiing, more time with the children, see my friends more often; that sort of thing.
And yet I knew that, since an early age, I had always wanted to challenge myself I needed those punctuations in my life where I had to face up to a severe test and the fact is that few things can offer that sort of opportunity. There are times when I feel totally happy with myself It may not last long. It might be for a few hours, it could even be for a fill day but, quite often, it is only a matter of minutes after I've done something that I'm really proud of. But those moments are addictive. Once you've had one, you need them again and again, like hitting a good golf shot. You subconsciously think of the time when you've had enough (maybe after the highest high) and will give up, completely filfilled. Until then, you continue to risk all for that fleeting moment.
It may be different for other drivers. In fact, I can't begin to know how people such as Philippe Streiff and Martin Dounelly, put out of racing through serious injury, must feel. How much would they give to get back into a racing car? Or are they simply happy to be alive? It is not the sort of question you can put to them but it is something you need to ask yourself.
There was almost too much time to think about everything during the days which followed. I deliberately chose not to watch television or look at newspapers the following day. I did not see the video of the accident until Tuesday, by which time I had decided that I really ought to find out what had happened. Then I learned that Ayrton's fimeral would take place in Sao Paulo.
The last thing I wanted at that point was to go to Brazil; given the choice, I would have gone away with my family and cut myself off until it was all over. I was not a close friend of Ayrton because I had only really known him for a few months. But the fact was that I had to face certain things: I had to find how and why Ayrton had crashed and it was important to show my loyalty as his team- mate. I knew I had to go to the funeral. I'm glad now that I did. I discovered just how much Ayrton meant to Brazil. The fimeral was almost presidential; quite extraordinary. Thousands of people lined the streets and many ran alongside the cortege. It was a very long way and I saw one person run almost the fill distance before falling into a hedge with exhaustion. There was a twenty-one-gun salute carried out with great military precision, a fly-past, a nurnber of dignitaries, including the president of Argentina and the Japanese ambassador.
Ayrton's family had requested that the drivers present escort the coffin as far as they could to the graveside, where there was a rifle salute. Overhead were four or five helicopters; it was a television spectacular of sorts but I couldn't hear any of the service because of the racket from above. I thought it rather sad that the family couldn't be left in peace during those final minutes.
The furore over why he crashed was still raging in the media but, even though I was a member of the team, I was not aware of any animosity. In fact, it seemed to me quite the opposite. I was touched, particularly by the children who would have grown up knowing nothing but the success which Ayrton Senna brought to Brazil. It was obviously very difficult for them to understand what had happened to their hero.
I remember being approached for my autograph by two fans as I left the hotel to go to the funeral. They said that Brazil would be watching me now - and that just choked me with emotion. I suddenly realized that they loved motor racing and, because Ayrton had chosen Williams as his team, it had become their team as well. It was not that I was stepping into his Ayrton's shoes or anything like that; it was just that Williams had become a part of their life and, by association, I was a part of it too. I thought it was a truly generous thing for them to say. All this was a lot for me to take on board. I had been looking forward to racing under the protective umbrella of Ayrton Senna. If I came second to him in a race then I could say I had done a good job - provided he wasn't too far ahead. But suddenly I was discovering the kind of responsibility he had been carrying all these years. He had been expected to win all the time. Being this person Ayrton Seuna must have been a burden even if he did choose to carry it in the first place. In the short time that we had worked together, I had come to understand that he was a pretty special driver, an instinctive driver. If you gave him a car which wasn't quite perfect, he could still make it go very quickly; in fact, I don't think he knew any other way.
I remember being intrigued by the way he would describe how the car handled. He would put his hands up in front of his face as if he was looking through the steering wheel, almost as if he was aiming the car. He had a very, very good ability to recall sensations and talk about the car repeatedly so that the engineer understood exactly what he was trying to say. It was in abstract terms. He wouldn't say the rollbar was too stiff. He would talk about sensations; refer to the road doing this or such and such a corner doing that, things I didn't even consider. He seemed to be able to see in minute detail exactly how the road changed.
If a car was not capable of winning, Ayrton could make it win. In the Brazilian Grand Prix, for instance, he had a car which was a bit off the pace of Schurnacher's Benetton. Yet he was able to stay with Michael and I was astounded that he had been able to do that with a car which, if it was anything like mine, simply wasn't handling.
At one stage they were about to lap me. Michael came through and I thought I had better get out of Ayrton's way. But, almost before I had taken the decision, he dived past me and nearly went off. He was heading towards the grass and just managed to slither through. He had completely messed up the corner but, to him, the important thing was to get by; he wasn't going to lose any time hanging around waiting for me.
It was as if he was being sucked towards the end of the race; as if you had attached one end of an elastic band to the start line and wound the rest up for the nurnber of laps - and then just let him go. His desire to win was simply overwhelming. And judging by the remarkable scenes at his funeral, he was doing it for a nation he loved, a nation which loved him.

******

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#10 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 07:44

I thought about that 'whinging' thing. I am pretty much sure that Damon obtained that questionable title back around 1994-1995 timeframe. I did not have any international media access back then but I can pretty much guess that he complained allot about his 1994 car. The weird thing is - lot of it was actually true so he indeed said about things as they were. Of course, Michael did not complain a bit - he won all those races Damon 'whinged' about - what the hell do you complain when you just won a race?

Drivers in their own mind never poot a foot wrong - if they do, it's time to hang the gloves and pursue other things, that sort of arrogance and self belief is needed to make race winners and champions. So, Damon continued to complain on at 1995, I can pretty much bet. At that year, many problems were actually his own and he himself has said so later on. Read his book, the man is quite capable of self-criticizing.

But what people forget all about is how a man like Michael Schumacher also complains about both other drivers and his cars behaviour. At 1994 he played this "hit Hill below the belt" game with Hill and the responsive side said that if you shovel enough **** onto the opposing side, some of this will inevitably stick. Schumacher won, so, winners get all excused.

Later on, around 1997-1998 timeframe, when Michael wasn't doing so well compared to the Mac boys, there was a constant "the car is not good enough, we have to do better" song coming out of his mouth. What people overlook is that when Michael said it it was consdered to be the God's allmighty thruth, when any other driver said the same things they were greeted with "shut up and drive, quit whinging!". It's just - same things said, different people, different perspectives.

#11 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 07:54

Bira, I vaguely recall one thing you once posted back in '99. Were you, the Schu fans really kinda afraid of the 'eyes' (maybe that is the wrong wording but you said someting along the lines of "every time they showed his eyes looking out of the helmet you got shivers go down your spine")?

That sentence alone puts a huge chunk of that respect right back to Damons shoulders in my opinion.

#12 ebe

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 08:06

maybe:

Silverstone 95

Monza 95

#13 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 08:10

Originally posted by ebe
maybe:

Silverstone 95

Monza 95

Maybe, but it is not logical. Michael did worse in Adelaide 94 to Hill resultwise. It is logical only if Michael fans think that Michael can never put a foot wrong.

#14 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 08:25

Originally posted by Force Ten
Bira, I vaguely recall one thing you once posted back in '99. Were you, the Schu fans really kinda afraid of the 'eyes' (maybe that is the wrong wording but you said someting along the lines of "every time they showed his eyes looking out of the helmet you got shivers go down your spine")?

That sentence alone puts a huge chunk of that respect right back to Damons shoulders in my opinion.


You must have me mistaken with someone else :confused:

Although Damon does have distinctive eyes. Very dark and pensive. But I can't say I got shivers down my spine looking at them, so it must have been someone else or something.

#15 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 08:39

Perhaps. Perfect memory is a thing that I definitely do not have...

#16 Sean L

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 08:52

I'm a Ferrari fan and therefore by default a Michael Schumacher fan too. Since the only drivers I cared about were Alesi and Berger at that time means I'm indifferent in my feelings about Hill. :)

#17 BMW FW22

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 11:13

Originally posted by crouchyaj
Topic: Why do Schumacher fans hate Damon Hill?


Because he was the one who made schumacher do something wich he is not very populair for :lol:

#18 Frans

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 11:23

Damon Hill was the Anti-Schumi driver PUR-SANG....... :up:

we loved him......always. Schum-fans could eat him alive! :lol:

it must be something like that. Hill had beaten Schumi to often or something, Hill always made something special from it. Heh, he beated the German in the media with great ease.... [ in the media ]

#19 SennasCat

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 11:29

I am a Michael Schumacher fan. I have only been a Ferrari fan when a driver I liked/respected drove for them (Villeneuve/Pironi), Arnoux/Tambay and Lauda (when he was a driver not a whinger). I bear Hill no ill will, and probably as a personality he has a lot more than Schumacher ever will. What he did to Hill in 94 was wrong, no doubt about it, same as what he did to Villeneuve in 97. However, I did feel that justice had been done in a rough way because of the way the the FIA deliberately tried to manipulate the 94 WDC to bring it to a last race winner takes all scenarie (by penalising Schumacher repeatedly). Two wrongs don't make a right, and I was glad to see Hill win in 96 because he did the best job in the best car that year. So no, I don't dislike Hill (but I would have been glad if he had given it away before he lost motivation). I also held his qualifying lap in Melbourne 97 in the Arrows highly - I have seen him drive worse in a better car and get pole.

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#20 Robbie

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 11:51

Originally posted by Force Ten
Robbie, I can't see how much an embarrassment he actually was.


I don't want to trash DH.

The move to Arrows was very questionable. Money was at the back of it, as it was behind Williams' decision to get rid of him.

His performance in Hungary was extraordinary.

The Jordan move went well at first: lucky his team-mate was RS, who was still a bit of a wild man. But then H2F arrived. And H2F's performance clearly disturbed DH. To be 'psyched out' by H2F is a sign of real fragility. We all know about his indifference to racing, finally abandoning a fully functioning car in the pits.

Lets be honest, the 'heroes' of motor-racing don't do these kind of things.

It seems to me, BTW, that MS has indirectly ruined three WDC's careers. MS's big salary has become some kind of yardstick of respect. DH wanted the kind of salary that would bring him nearer in earnings to MS; he left Williams because of it and went downhill rapidly. JVi is an identical case, but in some senses more ridiculous given the absurd BAR hype. And rumours suggested that McLaren were unwilling to pay MH what he wanted.

#21 Clatter

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 12:25

Originally posted by Robbie


The Jordan move went well at first: lucky his team-mate was RS, who was still a bit of a wild man. But then H2F arrived. And H2F's performance clearly disturbed DH. To be 'psyched out' by H2F is a sign of real fragility. We all know about his indifference to racing, finally abandoning a fully functioning car in the pits.


I dont think it was a case of being outpsyched by HHF, I think it was more to do with the fact that Trulli sent him crashing out of a couple of the early races that year. This to me was the thing that started to put doubts into his mind.

I have to admit that this is one of the reasons that I'm not overly keen on Trulli, and it annoys me when he complains about other drivers doing it to him.

#22 Chris G.

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 12:36

The way Hill was portrayed (by the media???) in his last season made him seem like a real quitter. It looked as though he had no passion and was not giving it 100%.

#23 crouchyaj

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 12:47

Originally posted by Robbie


I don't want to trash DH.

The move to Arrows was very questionable. Money was at the back of it, as it was behind Williams' decision to get rid of him.

His performance in Hungary was extraordinary.


Although money was involved in going to Arrows it was more a timing thing. Hill was after a McL drive and as McL had confirmed their drivers lineup for 1997 he had to find a seat for a single year so he could get a 1998 drive at McL.

Arrows was as good an option as any at that point all other options were for multiple years, including a Jordan offer.

When at the end of the 97 the McL drive failed to materialise (due to Hill rejecting Ron's offer), he moved to Jordan for less money than Tom was offering him to stay at Arrows but more than Ron offered (thats how bad Ron's offer was)

So money wasn't evertyhing, he wasn't after MS's salary just one derserving of a WDC


Originally posted by Robbie

The Jordan move went well at first: lucky his team-mate was RS, who was still a bit of a wild man. But then H2F arrived. And H2F's performance clearly disturbed DH. To be 'psyched out' by H2F is a sign of real fragility. We all know about his indifference to racing, finally abandoning a fully functioning car in the pits.


To say that Hill was psyched out by HHF is a bit ridulous.

Basically Hill had reached the end of his motivation. In his book "Formula 1 Through the Eyes of Damon Hill" he mentioned how is wife had been on the phone to Jordan, their lawyers, and Jordans lawyers trying to get Spa 98 called off after that rain and those accidents. This was the the race that was to be his last win. When you have that pressure on you from home its hard to remain focused and not care about the risks involved in the sport.

Keke Rosenberg said it best "those walls suddenly looked a lot closer once I became a father". Keke retired at the end of that year that his child was born.

Basically the thrill of racing had been superseeded in Hills life, not any out physching by HHF.

The sad thing is that although his final season was disappointing and that final race in Japan a disgrace, he really wanted to quit at Silverstone and perhaps he should but he didn't want to let Eddie Jordan down or more importantly his fans so he solidered on agaist his better judgement. That I respect him for if not the lack of racing that resulted.

#24 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 12:52

Originally posted by Robbie
I don't want to trash DH.

The move to Arrows was very questionable. Money was at the back of it, as it was behind Williams' decision to get rid of him.

No it wasn't, it was Hill's bad performance at 199 and HHF presumed Schumacher-beater status back then.

Says the man himself:
"There was a bittersweet taste to my championship-winning year in 1996, because I had already lost my job with the Williams team when I lifted the title. There was nothing to be gained by moping about being bumped out of Williams so I made it my objective to get a seat at McLaren, which was clearly going to be the best place to go.

Why was I so certain of that? Simple-Adrian Newey would be designing the car and they were a solid, well-established team. In my mind, those two facts alone were enough to convince me that McLaren would be the best car in 1998 and they would present me with my best chance of winning the championship again.

I had several approaches at the end of 1996, including one from Eddie Jordan, but I was hedging my bets. I wanted to find a team where I could be happy for a year, hopefully be competitive and then get myself into McLaren for the following season. At least, that was the plan, and that was where Tom Walkinshaw came in.

I like Tom. He has a reputation for being tough. He is a no-nonsense businessman and he doesn't muck about. He offered me a contract which didn't tie me in for two or five years. It was a single year, exactly what I wanted. His attitude was 'give me a year to prove myself and, at the same time, you show me what you can do in my team' and that was fine with me. It was an honest approach from him and, I thought, it gave us both what we wanted. He had the world champion, I had a one-year deal."

If anyone is interested I can post the link where the first three chapters of his book can be found. This quote is taken from there.

#25 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 13:12

Originally posted by crouchyaj
thats how bad Ron's offer was


If I remember correctly, Ron's offer was reportedly something like 2-3 million dollars, plus $1mil for every race win. Since Hill knew that the McLaren in 1998 was going to be very competitive, I was always wondering why he thought this was a bad offer to begin with. If you consider that Mika Hakkinen and David Coulthard both won 9 races in total, then Hill's chances of winning at least 5 races are more than likely - which would have taken him to the ballpark figure he was looking for to begin with, around $8-10mil, and most certainly more than he earned at Jordan ($5mil iirc).

It's something I don't really understand. Hill knew McLaren is the only seat that could give him a shot at the WC, or at least regular podium finishes. He also knew that financially, unless he was willing to stay at Arrows, there are not going to be illustrious offers thrown at him around the paddock. So why did he find Ron's offer so bad? Was it just money? Maybe ego? I can understand it, but I think it was unwise of Hill, and rather short sighted.

Which leads me to Hill's biggest weakness in modern F1: he was his own manager.

He held the negotiations on salary and stuff, and while he had a small bunch of friends among them accountant and lawyer to help him with things, he was still the manager. It hindered him immensely imo. He shouldn't have mixed "business with racing" - it clouts your judgement and it hinders your performance.

#26 Samurai

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 13:31

bira
good points! :)
I've always thought that Damon's manager sucked (didn't realize he was doing it himself though :eek: thought it was a childhood friend or someone). No wonder the negotiations were so bad, if he (a layman) was doing it himself. I didn't know this.


But about McLaren's offer, I think rather than the actual amount of money offered, it was that the timing was late, etc. and it seemed that the bottom line was that DH felt that Ron didn't really want to hire him (I guess this was a sort of just to show that they tried to get Hill, for the benefit of important people like Newey who rated Hill very highly, and the British public).

Ron really loves/loved DC (who isn't a bad racer of course) and since DC would be the one who would have to leave to make room for Damon, Ron's attitude wasn't really surprising. What was surprising I thought then and also when DC got completely rolled over by Mika,
was that DC must have had something really huge on Ron (the skeleton in the closet stuff :lol: )

#27 Samurai

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 13:36

Originally posted by Force Ten
If anyone is interested I can post the link where the first three chapters of his book can be found. This quote is taken from there.

This is "F1 Through the Eyes of Damon Hill" isn't it? :)

I'm glad I finally got my hands on it about half a year ago (the wonders of the Internet! :) It used to be real tough/pricey to get particular English books in Japan).

#28 pRy

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 13:42

Watching Hill wheel spin his Lamburghini and put his foot down going across London Bridge and susiquently being pulled over by the police for talking to his wife whilst driving put him in a new light with me. I think Eddie Jordan in particular will agree he was a very fun and out going guy to be around.

#29 Smooth

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 13:55

Hate? Not me, but respect is another thing. Damon had some very good strong points: He was a great development driver, was very smart off track (mostly - his career choices would put that into question) but he was rarely bright on the track. He was mostly out of his league racing with Prost, Senna and Schumacher, though he had some stretches of consistent performances.

I think there was a media-induced rivalry starting in 1994 when the Brit press thought they had another British champion to cheer when Senna died, but that 'evil' German was f*ing things up!

I think Schumacher fans (myself included) were a bit angry with the events of 1994 overall: We were robbed of a titanic battle between the old school (Senna) and the new (Schumacher). When Senna died, the battle proper was with Damon: A bit of a let down, and when the FIA stepped in to make things a bit closer, I, for one, was disgusted. That it came down to a one-race battle was absurd given the levels of driving between the two WDC protaganists. That it ended the way it did was a let down. 1995 put things right, a bit. Damon did his best to screw himself, (and brought Schumacher down with him at times!!) and when Damon drove well, Williams put it wrong. That his 1996 season was considered examplary by some was laughable. He had an ok season, but he was in a car that he developed, he had been at the team for years, and had a rookie placed in the #2 seat by the grace of Bernie and Max. Schumacher was nullifed by John Barnard, though his driving was, along with 1997, his best year-long effort (in my opinion).


For me it isn't hate, as much as it is apathy and lack of holding him at the same level as some other drivers he was up against.


Oh.... and the George Harrison impression he is doing lately isn't helping! ;)

#30 Todd

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 14:52

Bira,

If you really said this, I am extremely disgusted:

Originally posted by Force Ten
Bira, I vaguely recall one thing you once posted back in '99. Were you, the Schu fans really kinda afraid of the 'eyes' (maybe that is the wrong wording but you said someting along the lines of "every time they showed his eyes looking out of the helmet you got shivers go down your spine")?


The look of constipation moved you? Yuck. As to Force 10, don't imbue this quality to Schumacher fans in general. Most of us would happily bet our lives on Michael in a race against Damon Hill in a similar car. I'd say the same car, but that wouldn't even be a race.

Why did I so dislike Damon Hill through most of his F1 seasons?

I didn't dislike Damon in 1993, so that is a non-issue. It was clear even then that he wasn't the next great, but how many are? He was a good number 2 for a team that I rather liked.

The start of the 1994 season was telling. The drivers' aides were gone, and so was Damon Hill from the top of the podium. It still wasn't any reason to dislike him, he just wasn't a very strong driver.

Then Ayrton Senna died. Renault put pressure on Williams to get another strong driver. It was obvious to them that Damon Hilll wasn't up to the job. I hoped Damon would be promoted to #1 driver at Williams, because he looked so pitiful and sad, and because I wanted Michael Schumacher to win the championship. The best way for that to happen while he was driving a Benetton-Ford V8 was for the Williams-Renault to not have Prost or Mansell at the wheel.

In the years since then, the Benetton B194 has become the best car of 1994, but at the time conventional wisdom said that the faster Williams-Renault was the car to have. After all, the other people that tried to drive the B194 were having a hard time qualifying in the top 6, let alone on the front row. The WDC had been owned by Williams or McLaren for 10 years, so it had started to seem impossible that anything else would win it. Fortunately, after Senna's death, Frank Williams didn't want the responsibility of having a star driving his cars anymore. 1992 and 1993 had shown that they were at a high enough state of dominance that it shouldn't take a very good driver to win a championship in a Williams-Renault. He thought that Damon could do the job, and his performance on the track showed that I was right about Michael having him covered.

The performance of Michael that year was astounding. If something big didn't break, he won. In Spain, he was stuck in 5th of 6 gears for 2/3rds of the race and he still made it to the podium. Then, the fix went in. At the time, I didn't know that Damon Hill was in on it, so it wasn't the fix itself that caused me to hate Damon Hill. It was his response to it. Michael could crush him on the track all day long. He couldn't do it when the FIA handed Damon Hill 4 race wins. As I said before, I didn't know that Damon was in on the fix at Silverstone, so I couldn't blame him for accepting the race wins.

Why did I start to hate him? It was his reaction to being on the receiving end of a gift championship. He didn't care that Michael could, and did, beat him in any race that he was allowed to run. Instead, he acted like the worst sort of second generation welfare mother looking for her check. Having learned a little bit more about his character only this year, it all makes sense now. I hated him because he is a contemptible **** bag that tried to steal a championship and thought he had it coming to him because of his role in the treachery.

#31 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 14:54

Originally posted by bira
If I remember correctly, Ron's offer was reportedly something like 2-3 million dollars, plus $1mil for every race win. Since Hill knew that the McLaren in 1998 was going to be very competitive, I was always wondering why he thought this was a bad offer to begin with. If you consider that Mika Hakkinen and David Coulthard both won 9 races in total, then Hill's chances of winning at least 5 races are more than likely - which would have taken him to the ballpark figure he was looking for to begin with, around $8-10mil, and most certainly more than he earned at Jordan ($5mil iirc).

It's something I don't really understand. Hill knew McLaren is the only seat that could give him a shot at the WC, or at least regular podium finishes. He also knew that financially, unless he was willing to stay at Arrows, there are not going to be illustrious offers thrown at him around the paddock. So why did he find Ron's offer so bad? Was it just money? Maybe ego? I can understand it, but I think it was unwise of Hill, and rather short sighted.


Bira, I again repeat how Damon saw that offer:
"Throughout 1997 I was hoping Arrows would come good. but also that I could work a situation where I could get into McLaren. I was in regular contact with Ron Dennis, trying to find out if there would be a place for me in the team.

It is just about impossible to keep anything secret in Formula One and, before too long, it became known that I was available. Soon, people were falling over themselves to talk to me and I had offers from a lot of teams. The only problem was that none of them was McLaren"

snip

"At the same time, I still had to make up my mind about what to tell the other teams, because they had made me good offers, and here I was, putting myself in a position where I was waiting on McLaren to jump my way.

The problem when you are negotiating in situations like this is that you can end up boxed in, with no position from which to negotiate. You always need to have options available to you and that was the danger I faced. If I told the others that I wasn't interested. Ron could have waited until the cows came home before making me an offer. He knew I wanted the drive and he could have exploited that by delaying his decision and playing me off the other drivers he had in mind. I could have ended up having nowhere to go.

It was obvious that I had to put pressure on him, and that meant I had a very stressful time knowing that this was a window of opportunity that would not last very long. I was being offered fantastic opportunities at other teams (or I could have stayed at Arrows), but I wanted to go to the most competitive one, naturally."

"Things were not going well with McLaren. I had met with Ron Dennis, and he seemed keen for me to join the team. Then I got an offer from McLaren - and it took me by surprise.

During my discussions with Ron, I had made it clear that there were certain things I expected. I'm not motivated by money, but equally that is one of the ways drivers are ranked in the sport, and if you offer to drive for nothing then that is your perceived worth as a Formula One driver. I didn't want to break his bank by any means, but I wanted to be sure that he was as committed to me as I would be to his team and, as he was wont to repeat, 'money is not a problem'. Additionally, he knew very well what was I being paid to drive by Tom Walkinshaw.

I tend not to overstate my worth. If anything, I'm more self-effacing, but the facts are that I am a world champion and I expected to be paid a retainer that reflected that. I also expected to be treated as well as the other driver in the team because I felt I was at least as good as anybody in Formula One.

He took all my points on board and said there would be no problem with any of them. Then, when he finally got back to me, his offer was way below what we had discussed. For one thing, he wanted me to accept a contract that said I only got paid if I won races. There were no bonuses for scoring points, nothing for coming second or third and nothing if I was winning a race when the car failed. And that happened a lot to McLaren in the 1997 season, when the Mercedes engine proved unreliable. The bottom line was that I could turn up to races, get pole position, lead the race for all but one lap, then have the car break down and I would walk away without being paid a penny.

In fact, the contract that I was offered would have meant me earning less money than my team-mate, who I was told would have been Mika Hakkinen. Ron is very close to Mika, and he has been ever since Hakkinen survived a massive crash while driving a McLaren in Adelaide in 1995. Although Ron prides himself on never favouring one driver over another, I had the distinct impression that, if I drove for him, it would be as Hakkinen's deputy. There was no way I could accept that.

I have nothing against Mika. He is a very fast driver with a lot of talent, and I would have been quite happy to have been in a team with him, but I was not going to be his support act. At the time I was talking to Ron about going to McLaren, I had won 21 Grands Prix and a world championship; Mika had never so much as won a Formula One race, yet he was the guy who was going to be earning more money. To me, that would have been getting off on the wrong foot.

One other worrying concern was that he would not talk beyond a one-year deal. I took this to suggest that I would just be warming up the seat for Michael Schumacher, something else I was not prepared to do.

Along with many other things, it gave me the distinct impression that he was actually reluctant to give up what he had. I was working hard to get a place but, for marketing reasons and out of loyalty, I don't think he ever wanted to change things around with his drivers. Mercedes, who make their engines, and West, McLaren's main sponsor, were happy with David Coulthard and Mika Hakkinen's image and I was even told the pair were popular with Mercedes because they looked German! There was not a lot I could do about that - another one for the 'strange but true' Formula One story collection.

The more I thought about it, the more I realised that Ron only wanted to give people the impression that he had negotiated with me, and that it was I who had scuppered the deal. Ron presented me with an offer that he knew I was not going to accept and then, when I turned them down, he was able to shrug his shoulders and blame me. Whatever else you might think of him, there's no denying that Ron Dennis is one of the most manipulative operators in the sport."

I do not think that most of you have ever read it, it's actually a good reading and helps to explain Hill's perspective about things a bit too :)

#32 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 14:59

Originally posted by Todd
As to Force 10, don't imbue this quality to Schumacher fans in general.

Todd, this is Force Ten for you, not Force 10. Your lazyness and arrocance to even spell your opponents name correctly shows a thing or two about you. Or is it T0dd?

#33 Smooth

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 15:05

Originally posted by Force Ten
I do not think that most of you have ever read it, it's actually a good reading and helps to explain Hill's perspective about things a bit too :)


Actually, that read made me feel something I have never felt before: A twinge of respect for Ron Dennis!;)

#34 Force Ten

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 15:08

Originally posted by Smooth
Actually, that read made me feel something I have never felt before: A twinge of respect for Ron Dennis!;)

So, when Ron shovels **** on your guy, you hate/dislike/disrespect him, when he showels it to a guy you dislike, you respect him. Nice goin' man.

#35 Peeko

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 15:10

Originally posted by Force Ten
Later on, around 1997-1998 timeframe, when Michael wasn't doing so well compared to the Mac boys, there was a constant "the car is not good enough, we have to do better" song coming out of his mouth. What people overlook is that when Michael said it it was consdered to be the God's allmighty thruth, when any other driver said the same things they were greeted with "shut up and drive, quit whinging!". It's just - same things said, different people, different perspectives.

Same words, different results...

:smoking:

#36 CONOSUR

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 15:17

Originally posted by crouchyaj
Just wondering why MS fans so hate Hill... So MS fans what is it huh :confused: , and please make a logical response.


Quite simply, and not having read any of the other comments yet, imo, Hill was an exceptional tester, an extremely fast driver, but a very poor racer.

He could start from pole and run away, but he couldn't start farther back and pass his way to the front without crashing out Schumacher in the process. He passed back markers with ease, because they had to let him by. But, if he were fighting for position, he couldn't overtake with a proper manouver.

Of course, that just my opinion after having watched all those races live on ESPN in America at the time, and forming my own opinions from what I saw with my own eyes, and not having had to listen through all the pro-British/pro-Hill bias that most Brits got from ITV(?). I can't remember how many times I saw Hill punt Schumacher up the backside and out of the race, just because Schu got the better of him at the start and was leading a race that was supposed to belong to Hill because Hill started from pole.

He just wasn't a real racer. You asked for my opinion. That's my opinion. It will always be my opinion. You need not like it, or agree with it, but, that's it nonetheless. That's why I don't like Hill.

:smoking:

#37 kodandaram

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 15:29

Even JV fans admit that Hill would posibly have won the WDC in 97 if he'd stayed at Williams but MS fans can't seem to fathom that answer, and according to this thread MS would have romped it in as a result

Nope not me man....I don't know if Hill knew he was done with williams for 97 but you only had to look at JV's record for a rookie in 96 and you can bet your wager that he would have got the better of hill albeit with some tussle ...since Hill was the percentage guy ..very expereinced.
Besides i was a big Hill fan ...not so much today ....i still am a Schumi fan so ur statement isn't too true nevertheless age had caught up with hill - he would have been 38 at end of 97 and in 97 end , Jv was 26 yrs old ...thats 12 yrs - too much age differential.:down:

#38 Smooth

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 15:33

Originally posted by Force Ten
So, when Ron shovels **** on your guy, you hate/dislike/disrespect him, when he showels it to a guy you dislike, you respect him. Nice goin' man.


a: First, and most important, look here.

b: I don't think this was Ron 'shoveling' anything on Damon. He made an intial offer, the only details you provided were from a highly biased participant of these negotiations. There is no details from camp McLaren on counter offers, or further negotiations. Ron was not required to offer Damon one penny. Damon was all but begging to get a decent ride, and the only teams that would have that in 1997 would have been Williams, Benetton, and McLaren. Well, Damon had one shot, obviously, so he chased it down. He even stated he had heard Ron was fairly happy with Mika and DC, so it is blatantly obvious he was going to put forth an initial offer highly favourable to McLaren. So he offered, according to Damon, an offer that required a win for pay. Maybe it was a hint to Damon, or maybe it was a starting point. Either way, Damon got what he deserved in 1997: An Arrows ride.

#39 MichiganF1

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 15:51

Since I wasn't an F1 fan in 94/95, I wasn't exposed to his lack of passing skills then. He must have improved them, however - witness the brilliant pass of Schumacher at Hungary '97 and the last lap move on Frentzen at Suzuka '98.

I don't remember lots of botched attempts in the later years, with the exception of some back of the pack scrambles in a **** Arrows.

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#40 BRG

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 16:34

Originally posted by CONOSUR
I can't remember how many times I saw Hill punt Schumacher up the backside and out of the race

I think it was all of twice - at Monza and Silverstone - but maybe 2 is just too large a number for your memory to handle.

This thread shows very clearly the reason why Hill is hated by Shcumi-fans - because he dared to stand up to and to compete with their deity, the almighty Michael Schumacher. And in so doing he showed that their idol had feet of clay as we all saw at Adelaide. A few punts were scarcely as bad as a stolen WDC.

Of course Hill wasn't as good a F1 driver as Schumacher - arguably of those that he has competed against, only Senna and Prost were his equals. But Hill was extremely good - certainly better than the likes of Hakinnen or Villeneuve. He was a very fine test and development driver and a good qualifier. But he did lack the "killer instinct" that makes a great overtaker. Yes, he had the best car for some of his career, but you cannot blame him for that - after all, he made excellent use of it. During his Williams days, he had a win to race ratio of around 25% despite being comparative inexperienced.

#41 The Soul Stealer

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 16:37

I'm a Schumacher fan and I can honestly say that D Hill never bothered me.

The only driver I have a major dislike of is our beloved Cubehead and the reason isn't even Schumacher related. It's because in 98 and 99 after delivering the infamous "his year" speech, he then drove into walls, barriers, Team mates, you name it he hit it… everything that is except the safty car although I'm sure that had the chance presented itself he would have more than willingly taken it out as well (just to be helpful like)

But I'm sure there are those out there who will try to convert me to the camp of David "the Kamikaze" Cubehead or just simply say I'm full of shit…..

All I can say is DH was a God compaired with DC but only a standard racer compaired with MS

#42 Smooth

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 17:14

Originally posted by BRG This thread shows very clearly the reason why Hill is hated by Shcumi-fans - because he dared to stand up to and to compete with their deity, the almighty Michael Schumacher. And in so doing he showed that their idol had feet of clay as we all saw at Adelaide. A few punts were scarcely as bad as a stolen WDC.


Where did you get that impression? You read with a blind eye, it seems..... and if you believe MS' WDC was stolen, do you conveniently ignore the role of the FIA that year? Nothing stolen... just played out a bit different than the puppeteers had planned.

Of course Hill wasn't as good a F1 driver as Schumacher - arguably of those that he has competed against, only Senna and Prost were his equals. But Hill was extremely good - certainly better than the likes of Hakinnen or Villeneuve.



Better than Hakkinen? :lol: good one.

He was a very fine test and development driver and a good qualifier.


Ouotqualified by a rookie in his first race, in a car that DH had developed. :up: Way to go, Damon. He got on top of it, though.... but mostly due to his skill at setups, and his experience at the tracks.

Yes, he had the best car for some of his career, but you cannot blame him for that - after all, he made excellent use of it. During his Williams days, he had a win to race ratio of around 25% despite being comparative inexperienced.


He had one WDC out of easily four years in a car more than capable of winning it. (93,94,96 WCC car, and arguably a better car than the Benetton in 1995) He got some wins, but making excellent use of it?


My biggest knock is his 1999 season. Pulling into the pits in a car that has no problems is deplorable.

#43 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:00

Something I have to ask, though: can you people care to explain to me why Hill fans are the most fanatic MS haters there are?

I'm not kidding. The most radical MS haters I've met or come across, including people who were vocally praying for MS to die, were Hill fans. You can say it's because of Adelaide 94, but I think it goes well well beyond that. I think it's sheer frustration at the fact that your man time and again was proven not to be quite on par with MS. It was MS that disturbed Hill fans, not the other way around.

I knew a fruitcake online a few years back - he's never posted on Atlas F1 so I won't mention names, but I'm pretty sure a lot of old times who participated in rasf1 or #f1 will know who I mean.

This guy was the most fanatic fan I've ever met. He was a Damon Hill fan, and his hatered for MS was scarey.

There was another one in the same fora, also the most stubborn one-sided vocalist I've came across. He was a Hill fan.

On this Bulletin Board, you have Frans MSH - I'd like to remind you that MSH stands for Michael Schumacher Hater. He is the webmaster of a website that promoted hatered and verbal violence against Michael Schumacher.

Those are but examples, but let's go on and look at the orthodox press.

Anyone remember Simon Barnes from the Times? An acknowlegded Damon Hill fan who wrote some of the best written articles I've read on the subject of hatered and loath against Michael Schumacher.


When you point a finger at MS fans, you might wanna check how many fingers you are pointing right back at you.

I've yet to see an MS fan speak with such venom on the subject of Damon Hill.

I've yet to see an MS fan run an anti-DH website.

I've yet to see an MS fan flagging on his nickname his hatered towards Damon Hill.

No, the difference is in general MS fans didn't appreciate Damon Hill. Hatered, on the other hand, is something DH fans should be able to say a lot about.

#44 Smooth

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:09

on Bira's topic: How many non-British Damon fans are that vocal? Just curious...... I think the anti-Michael media blitz by the British motorsports publications had some effect in building up support for Damon.

#45 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:14

Originally posted by Smooth
on Bira's topic: How many non-British Damon fans are that vocal? Just curious...... I think the anti-Michael media blitz by the British motorsports publications had some effect in building up support for Damon.


Well you have two non-Brits who were THE most vocal anti-MS for years. One of them posted "what a shame it's only a broken leg" after Silverstone 1999 :rolleyes:

#46 Smooth

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:19

Originally posted by bira


Well you have two non-Brits who were THE most vocal anti-MS for years. One of them posted "what a shame it's only a broken leg" after Silverstone 1999 :rolleyes:


frans is more an anti-Schumacher/pro whoever Schumacher is racing against than he is a Hill fan. He is a 'special' case.

you have other guys, like the HartleyHare/DangerMouse (where did those two go, anyway??)combo who were very pro-Hill, and we had a few conversations about this very thing: A British-media bias influencing a large percentage of a British drivers fan base....

#47 The Soul Stealer

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:20

Originally posted by bira
Something I have to ask, though: can you people care to explain to me why Hill fans are the most fanatic MS haters there are?





It's because he is a prominent "Evil" German and he gad the gall to beat a son of one of their most prominent F1 racers. The hate doesn't stop here though it is also tangible in soccer. The English hate the Germans because of the wars Ironic really considering their royal family is German

#48 Todd

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:33

Originally posted by Smooth
the HartleyHare/DangerMouse (where did those two go, anyway??)combo who were very pro-Hill, and we had a few conversations about this very thing


HartleyHare/Dangermouse applied his mental capacities to making predictions instead of excuses. He then had to drop off the board to avoid having his authoritative opinions on driving talent and the unfitness off non-UK nations to field formula 1 teams rebuked by quotations of his brilliant prognostications for 2001 that Benetton would pass BMW-Williams and Sauber would quit the series from the oppressive frustration of trying to compete with English teams like BAR and Arrows. :lol:

#49 bira

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:36

Originally posted by Smooth
frans is more an anti-Schumacher/pro whoever Schumacher is racing against than he is a Hill fan. He is a 'special' case.

you have other guys, like the HartleyHare/DangerMouse (where did those two go, anyway??)combo who were very pro-Hill, and we had a few conversations about this very thing: A British-media bias influencing a large percentage of a British drivers fan base....


Smooth, there's no separation in the fact that some people are huge Hill fans AND MS haters - one thing feeds the other in several cases we know. As a matter of fact, I would like to see Frans or Samurai post here saying they weren't devout Hill fans? I doubt they'd turn against their own beliefs, only for the sake of magnifying their own hatered towards MS :)

There are a lot of extremely vocal anti-MS/pro-Hill fans that have dissolved - not on this BB necessarily - after Hill left. I think it has to do with the rather humiliating way he retired (not even I would wish it to any World Champion), while at the same time Schumacher seemed to excel, despite all the woodoo dolls they pinned. It also probably has to do with the fact that Mika didn't prove a 'worthy' replacement to Hill for them: he had a wonderful relationship with Michael, and their ontrack battles were exemplary. You'd never see a Hakkinen fan expressing such sheer hatered towards Schumacher as you would among some Hill fans.

#50 Todd

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Posted 31 October 2001 - 18:42

Originally posted by bira
You'd never see a Hakkinen fan expressing such sheer hatered towards Schumacher as you would among some Hill fans.


Read the deep insights of HSJ some time.