Jump to content


Photo

The Ferrari P3 / P4


  • Please log in to reply
79 replies to this topic

#1 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,717 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 08 January 2002 - 21:46

In response and contrast to the GT 40 Thread, I offer the competion of the era. The Ferrari P3 and P4 racing cars.

Specs:
Engine: Rear-mounted 60° V12, light alloy cylinder block and head, Bore & Stroke: 77 x 71 mm, Unitary and Total Displacement: 330.62/3,967 Compression Ratio: 11.4:1 Max., Power Output: 420 bhp at 8,000 rpm, Timing Gear: 2 valves per cylinder, twin overhead camshafts per cylinder bank, Fuel Feed: Lucas injection, Ignition: Twin-plug, coil-ignition, Transmission: Multi-plate clutch, ZF 5-speed gearbox + reverse, ZF limited-slip differential, Chassis: Tubular with alloy panel reinforcements , Front Suspension: Independent, double wishbone, coil springs Rear Suspension:
Independent, double wishbone, coil springs, Brakes: Girling ventilated discs, Wheelbase and Front/ Rear Track: 2,400/1,462/1,431 mm, Dry Weight: 720 kg, Front Tyres: 5.50-15 Rear Tyres:
7.00-15.

These cars were absolutely gorgeous. Their sinewy lines and graceful profile were in contrast with the GT 40's muscular stance.

The P3 was a logical and comprehensive evolution of the 1965 model P2, still a tubular frame but now, in P3 form, riveted-on alloy panels and the fiberglass undertray were both bonded to the chassis to increase torsional rigidity. An all-new, four-cam V-12 engine was developed for the P3, now fitted with Lucas mechanical fuel injection. This would be the first time that Weber carburetors were not fitted to a works Ferrari sports racing car.

Twin ignition via two distributors and four coils rounded out the powerplant, which produced a claimed output of 420 horsepower at 8,200 rpm. The P3 was fitted with what is recognized as one of the most pure and beautiful bodies ever created for a competition Ferrari.

Built by Argentinean, Piero Drogo’s Carrozzeria Sports Cars in Modena, it was much lower than a P2 at 37.4 inches high.

Because of labor disputes in Italy, only three P3s were ever built, compared to five P2s built the previous year. 0844’s first race outing was in the 1,000 Kilometer sports car race at Monza, where Mike Parkes was partnered with John Surtees. The pair led from start to finish in what was mostly a wet race. For the Spa-Francorchamps 1,000 Kilometer race, Parkes drove again, this time partnered with Ludovico Scarfiotti. During the race, Parkes set a lap record of 139 mph and despite facing a horde of Ford GT40s, 0844 trounced the opposition again.

Le Mans 1966 was a battle of the titans. Ford entered no less than eight of the seven-liter GT40 MK IIs. For the first time, three P3s were to be run, two of which were officially NART entries, but for all intents and purposes they were managed by SEFAC Ferrari, the factory team. In the race, Maranello’s squad of P3s paled with the industrial might of Detroit’s eight seven-liter Fords, as did their four-liter engines, nearly half as big.

0844 was sold to Luigi Chinetti’s North American Racing Team for 1967. The first race in 1967 for 0844 was Daytona; the new P4s dominated the race, placing first and second. The new P4 was still a four-liter car but now featured a three-valve cylinder head. This extra breathing helped the P4 to produce 450 hp, 30 more than the P3. The sometimes unreliable ZF transaxle was replaced with a Ferrari-built unit; other major changes were a shorter wheelbase and wider track. The last year’s P3s were updated to the wheels and uprights of the P4, these converted cars are called “412P.” 0844, driven by Pedro Rodriguez and Jean Guichet, completed Ferrari’s domination in third place. In perhaps the most recognized triumph in Ferrari history, the three cars staged a formation finish which has been depicted in numerous paintings (see Dexter Brown’s rendition on the cover of the October, 1998 SCM).

At Monza the P4s triumphed again while 0844, shared by Jean Guichet and Pedro Rodriguez, charged hard from the start. In fact, Pedro eventually got the lead from Parkes’ P4 thanks to the P3’s better fuel mileage and his blinding pace until the Mexican, trying too hard, went off at the first chicane and damaged the radiator too seriously to continue. 0844 was now prepared for the return match at Le Mans. There, she was race number 25 driven by Rodriguez and Giancarlo Baghetti. It was actually Rodriguez in 0844 who led the field from the start but the pace of the winning GT40 MK IV of Dan Gurney and A.J. Foyt simply left all others gasping in their wake. 0844, after showing signs of strain, was eventually retired in the eleventh hour with piston failure.

For 1968 the new three-liter limit for sports cars made cars like 0844 obsolete. However, Can-Am racing was becoming very popular so Chinetti returned the car to the factory where the bodywork was cut down into Spyder configuration and the uprights were replaced with P4 units.

Finished in late August, 0844 ran its first Can-Am race at Bridgehampton, driven by Scarfiotti into seventh place. Just one week later, the P3/4 appeared at Mosport where a bad start and a puncture ended Scarfiotti’s run. Chinetti now realized that four liters of European V12 stood no chance against seven liters of American V8 and retired the Ferrari from active competition. Chinetti sold the car a few years later and it passed through several hands in the US before being purchased and restored to its original P3 Berlinetta configuration.

This P3 sold for $5,616,000, including premium, at the Christie’s Pebble Beach Auction held August 20, 2000.


Posted Image

It is possible to buy a warehouse full of race cars that are faster than this P3 and have change left over from your $5.6M. Clearly, when a car sells for the price of twenty-five Lola T-70s, we must be dealing with something that combines rarity, performance and provenance in an extraordinary way. This P3 has it all. It’s a Ferrari, it competed against the Fords in the most glorious moment of international sports car racing, and it’s one of just three built.

Advertisement

#2 bobbo

bobbo
  • Member

  • 841 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 08 January 2002 - 22:31

Ford GT 40 (& kin) : Pretty, fast, impressive.

Ferrari P3/P4: VERY pretty, sensual (actually beautiful and sexy), fast, impressive.

I'll go with the Ferrari any time.

ANY time.

No apologies.

Bobbo

#3 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 15,188 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 08 January 2002 - 22:43

Funny. I was just to reply on the Ford GT 40 thread ("the most beautiful sports car in the world") that I liked both the P3/P4 and the Chaparral 2D even better!
For me, this car was the most beautiful in the world. And Ferrari were more handicapped by the new 1968 FIA regulations than Ford.

#4 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 2,002 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 08 January 2002 - 23:03

Every day you find something new on TNF - I had no idea Piero Drogo was a Brazilian! If it is correct I will admire that fascinating country even more!

#5 biercemountain

biercemountain
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 08 January 2002 - 23:30

Speedvision ran a show about Ferrari sports cars not too long ago and had a feature on the P4. Even before seeing the show I thought the P4 was the most beautiful sportscar ever made. After hearing the car I now think it also the most beautiful sounding sportscar made. The scream from that V12 was awesome.

I've heard that a fellow by the name of Norwood creates replica P4's using custom built body and coach work and Ferrari V12s from various road cars. They are a lot less expensive than the real thing but will still set you back the same amount as a summer home on the beach in the Hamptons.

Can you imagine cruising down the street in one? Even Lamborghini drivers would stop and stare.

#6 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,717 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 09 January 2002 - 01:43

Originally posted by dmj
Every day you find something new on TNF - I had no idea Piero Drogo was a Brazilian! If it is correct I will admire that fascinating country even more!



dmj,


Posted Image


I gathered bits and pieces to make that entry and your post caused me to double-check my reporting... I erred in that part of the story... I have made the correction.

After a bit more research, I found that he was born on August 8th 1926 in Argentina, became good friends with Fangio and went to Italy. In 1960 he took part in the 8th Italian Grand Prix with a Cooper-Climax of the "Scuderia Colonia" and was placed 8th, five laps behind the winner, Phil Hill.

Later he founded the "Carrozzeria Sports Cars" in Modena/Italy, via Emilia Ovest 362, and realized his ideas of car design and coach-building.

His coachwork was found on Ferrari and Maserati sports and racing cars.

I think, he has made some of the most beautiful cars in the world (the P3, 206 S his GTOs or the famous "Nembo"). It is told that he might have been a bit of a playboy, a very interesting fellow to be sure, but someone who loved life and was knowing how to enjoy it.

On the 28th of April 1973 he died in a car accident - naturally in a Ferrari, with a big cigar in his mouth.



Posted Image
Drogo's Norinder-GTO
Posted Image
Nembo 250 Spyder

#7 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 09 January 2002 - 02:08

I think it was the combination of the Fords, the Chaparrals, and the Ferraris along with the Porsches that made that era so great -- it was a class act across the board and I really like them ALL because they were such great racing cars. The 250LM and the P4 are my favorite "modern' Ferraris and I always thank my lucky stars I got to see them in their prime, in action.









Hmmmmm, "Symbolic Motors"........suppliers to the G3? Or merely providing service with a smile? :lol:

#8 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,717 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 09 January 2002 - 02:45

...I don't know what G3 means, but the fellows standing behind the Nembo are the restoration team from Symbolic Motors, the contractor for the job.

And I concur, the entire field of sports racing cars of that era were fantastic. Every one a feast for the senses.

You were a lucky fellow indeed to have seen them compete at that time.

#9 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 09 January 2002 - 02:56

"G3" is TNF shorthand for the "Gordon Gecko Gang"


Plus, I enjoy picking on Symbolic since I love reading the "histories" of their "presentations"......which are generally okay to good if not always applicable to the car in question.... :lol:

However, that has nothing to do with the craftsmen who do perform excellent work on the machines that pass through the shop.... they tend to be best described as "superb" in my book, G3 or not.

#10 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,717 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 09 January 2002 - 03:18

Got it now... should have figured that one out : I don't know all of the "personalities" involved with Symbolic but I do know they turn out a fantastic restoration.

#11 Keir

Keir
  • Member

  • 5,239 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 January 2002 - 04:01

The GT40"s were "handsome" in a "male athlete" sort of way.

The 330P's were "beautiful" in a "super model" sort of way.

At least that's the way I've always seen it!!!

#12 ray b

ray b
  • Member

  • 2,747 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 09 January 2002 - 06:08

:clap: P3/4 best looking ever
I saw ONE being driven on the street in coconut grove
mid 80's before big run up in prices
chased it but only got close enuff to hear v12 rev up
and he was gone way faster than 350 chevy I had
but must have been a real one with that sound and speed
you just can't fake and nobody did in mid 80's anyway.

#13 2F-001

2F-001
  • Member

  • 3,734 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 09 January 2002 - 11:15

Keir said:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The GT40"s were "handsome" in a "male athlete" sort of way.

The 330P's were "beautiful" in a "super model" sort of way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say:
The Chaparrals were beautiful in a ''racing car'' sort of way!
:)

#14 Maranello Man

Maranello Man
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 09 January 2002 - 21:58

I was at Sebring for the 12 Hour race in 1966 and saw the facory entered 330 P3 driven by Mike Parkes/Bob Bondurant. It ran as high as second before its gearbox gave out after midway in the race. Gurneys Blue GT40 MK II expired on the last lap while in the lead and he tried to push it to the finish line (was DQ'd) would have finished 2nd if he had let it sit. This was truly a Classic time for endurance racing. Grand Prix drivers driving Prototypes and GT cars!

BTW this year is the 50th Anniversary of the 12 hour and there will be an exhibition run of many of the previous winners including: 1959 Ferrari 250 TR (P. Hill, Gurney, Daigh), 1963 250P (Surtees, Scarfiotti), 1957 Maserati 450S (Fangio, Behra) just to name a few. I'll be there. :clap:

#15 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 2,002 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 10 January 2002 - 09:02

After a bit more research, I found that he was born on August 8th 1926 in Argentina, became good friends with Fangio and went to Italy. In 1960 he took part in the 8th Italian Grand Prix with a Cooper-Climax of the "Scuderia Colonia" and was placed 8th, five laps behind the winner, Phil Hill.

Yes, of course, it clicked the right button. I knew that Brazilian connection was new and surprising to me - I had read somewhere about Drogo but forgot he came from Argentina (he probably was an Italian by nationality anyway, I believe - there are lot of them in Argentina).
So now I have one more reason to admire Argentina as well, besides their great drivers, writers, musicians, footbalers and food. :) (I hope I will check the last one personally one day... ;) )

#16 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 67,076 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 10 January 2002 - 09:39

I saw a P4 at Bathurst... at Longford... at Warwick Farm.... and a 250LM at these places too... great looking cars.

Only Ford GT40 I ever saw racing was Peter Sutcliffe's BRG version, not in the same boat. And I never saw a Chaparral at all... more's the pity.

As Don said, they were all great racing cars, and I add the Matich SR3 and SR4 to that list, the Elfin 400s were a bit less so, but the Elfin ME5 was a great car and the Elfin MS7 another... Rennmaxes were nice.

The loss of Sports Racing cars is indeed a dreadful loss.

#17 GunStar

GunStar
  • Member

  • 154 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 10 January 2002 - 14:19

I'm rather partial to the Lola T-70. After that, 512S and 917LH. From there, I don't think I have room :)

I've been lucky enough to see many of these cars at some speed, even sit in a few. Historic race can be some of the best places to be in the summer. Seeing the cars that got you through your childhood...for some of you, and the cars some were never around to see the first time, running near full out.

Ah, the joys of older unmuffled ground pounders and banshee screamers.
Mr. Peabody, where's the time machine¿

#18 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 8,408 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 10 January 2002 - 16:50

After hearing the car I now think it also the most beautiful sounding sportscar made.



I caught the show as well and agree that the sound of the p4 - which I think was the one in the show, was incredible! Obsessive almost. I would have loved to here the entire lot blast down the straights at LeMans!

#19 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,927 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 11 January 2002 - 18:14

I have some questions relating to these cars.


Rdrcr said that only three P3s were built. Ferrari by Tanner and Nye says the same but then says that in 1967 there were four P3/4s raced by private teams 0844 by NART, 0848 by Filipinetti, 0850 by Ecurie Francorchamps, 0854 by Maranello Concessionaires. They also say that 0846was updated by the factory to "near P4 specification" and retained by the works team. I don't have the book with me now, but I don't think they mention 0852.

Does this mean that two or three new cars (0850, 0854 and possibly 0852) were built in 1967?

What is the "near P4 specification" of 0846? Is it somewhere between the P3/4 and the genuine P4? Perhaps the engine and gearbox of the P4 with the chassis of the P3?

What is the current whereabouts of te P4s? THey are surely one of the most historic of all Ferrari models, marking the end of a continuous line of development that stretched back 10 years.

I've always assumed that when people see P3s or P4s on the road these are replicas of some kind (See ray b's post) With so few cars made it's difficult to believe that any of them coud be used on the road. Can anybody confirm that this is so, and say who built them and what was the mechanical description.

Advertisement

#20 ray b

ray b
  • Member

  • 2,747 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 11 January 2002 - 19:20

Originally posted by Roger Clark
I have some questions relating to these cars.


Rdrcr said that only three P3s were built. Ferrari by Tanner and Nye says the same but then says that in 1967 there were four P3/4s raced by private teams 0844 by NART, 0848 by Filipinetti, 0850 by Ecurie Francorchamps, 0854 by Maranello Concessionaires. They also say that 0846was updated by the factory to "near P4 specification" and retained by the works team. I don't have the book with me now, but I don't think they mention 0852.

Does this mean that two or three new cars (0850, 0854 and possibly 0852) were built in 1967?

What is the "near P4 specification" of 0846? Is it somewhere between the P3/4 and the genuine P4? Perhaps the engine and gearbox of the P4 with the chassis of the P3?

What is the current whereabouts of te P4s? THey are surely one of the most historic of all Ferrari models, marking the end of a continuous line of development that stretched back 10 years.

I've always assumed that when people see P3s or P4s on the road these are replicas of some kind (See ray b's post) With so few cars made it's difficult to believe that any of them coud be used on the road. Can anybody confirm that this is so, and say who built them and what was the mechanical description.


4 P-4 and 3 "TARTED-UP" P-3 at le mans plus 1 P-2 in 67 race per HNM in R&T in 9-67 issue.
4th P-4 entered by Ecurie Nationale Belge 's Mairesse/Beurlys, NART had a P-3 and the P-2.
RAY knows what race tune v12 sounds like and HAD SLOT CARS WITH P-4 BODYS so can tell a street car from a fake racer from a real one.
MID 80's before THE MASTER DIED the cars were in the reach of a rockstar or drug runner with a wild taste in cars and no shortage of them with tooomany $$$$ in the grove back then.
THIS P-3/4 looked right, sounded right, and was ungodly fast on a twistie road only wrong thing was white paint on it. only tryed to chase follow once but saw it many times mostly as a hi-speed blure going 2X speed limit on twistie roads or faster.
BUT that was my #2 car spot!!!!
#1 was worth more than any ferrari ever A ROYAL BUG back in 72 a Henny N of miami springs had a royal and drove it on the street sometimes even out to dinner at the super sub shop where I saw it in the parking lot on 8st.I waited untill he came out just to hear it run

#21 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,927 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 12 January 2002 - 12:20

I've done some more research on this subject, if anybody is interested.

0852 was a Dino 206S, so that leave us with 5 P3s, 0844, 0846 and 0848 raced by the works team in 1966, In 1967 they were modified to P3/4 specification and sold to private owners. 0850 and 0854 were raced by private owners in 1967.

It's interesesting to speculate when 0850 was built. Logic suggests that it would be before 0852, which raced in the 1966 Targa Florio, suggesting that 0850 was also built in 1966. Logic is not always much help when it comes to Italian racing cars.

with regard to P4s on the road, Franco Sbarro marketed a replica using a Ferrari 308 as a donor. I once saw a P4 shaped car on the way to silverstone; I am sure that this is what it was.

I can only envy ray b seeing a genuine P3/4 on the road.

#22 ray b

ray b
  • Member

  • 2,747 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 12 January 2002 - 18:36

CAN-AM cars? was nart's 67 P-3 Scarfiotti's can-am car the same car nart ran at le mans??
WHAT ABOUT AMON's and Williams can-am P-4's in later 67 races were they le mans cars or
specals as they were said to be lite weights? were any can-am's cars reconverted to enduro specks later??

#23 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 30 January 2002 - 23:02

I'm new to the forum, and this is my first post but I've been doing some research on the P4s and actually found the forum. ):


In answer to Ray b I've found that

#0844 Was the car that Scarfiotti drove for NART in those first Can-Am races in September 1967. This car did appear at Le Mans in '67 piloted by Rodrigez and Bahetti , it retired from the race. This car was originally a factory P3, that was uprated to the P3/4 spec officially known as the 412P. It was originally a Factory Ran car That had won races in the hands of Surtees, Parkes and Scarfiotti in 1966 at Monza and Spa. It was converted to 412P spec towards the end of 1966, when it was sold to Chinetti's NART. It competed at Daytona in 67, placed 3rd in that famous race, and did not finish at either Monza or Spa. Within three months of retiring at Le Man it was converted to Can Am spec, but was uncompetitive in it's early form. I believe this car was sold shortly after the Scarfiotti's Mosport Can Am race in 1967, and turned up in National events in the hands of a privateer the following year. This car still existed in Can-Am form until recent years, and was seen at Goodwood Festival in 1996 with Symbolic Motors. It was converted back to Berlinetta P4 bodywork in 1998 and sold at auction as ‘rdrce’ said in 2000 for $5.6 million. I believe the car now resides in the UK in the hands of a private collector/race driver.

Two other converted P4's appeared at the Can-Am races in 1967. Williams drove #0858 which was a factory built P4 that first raced in April 1967 in four rounds of the World Championship for the works team. After it's last factory outing at Brands in July '67 (also driven by Williams) it was converted to Can-Am spec and raced by NART and Williams at Laguna Seca, Riverside and finally Las Vegas. It spent the majority of 1968 and 1969 in South Africa where it ran in the Springbok championship, for which it was converted back to original P4 bodywork. It was acquired in the early 1970's, and I believe it still resides in California. This is probably the most campaigned P4 of them all.

The third P4 to run in Can-Am was #0860. This car had debuted in 1967 at Le Man, before a second place at Brands Hatch in July in the hands of Surtees and a young scotsman called Jackie Stewart. This was enough to secure the manufcaturers championship for Ferrari that year, but Like the others it was converted to Can-Am spec. Chris Amon raced this car in three events, with a best place of 5th. I believe that this is the car that Amon raced in the tasman series in Australia at the end of 1967, where I believe it stayed for the duration of 1968. The car finally reappeared in late 1968 for two races in the hands of Pedro Rodriguez. I believe that this car still exists in CanAm form, making it the only remaining P4 that does

I am currently researching the whole of the P3 & P4 family, and would like to hear from anyone who has any stories, race reports or photographs from the racing career of any of the P series sportscars. I am also looking for information on the Australian races and National US races in 67/68 that these cars contested, plus hillclimb racing that the P3s and P4s contested in Europe in 1967/8.

Roger, I may also be able to clear up some of questions about the replicas that exist.

The original 'replica' was built sometime in 1986/7 by a guy called Lee Noble. You may recognise the name from Noble Cars, the creator of the succesfull M12 sportscar in England. Lee constructed the car on a spaceframe tubular chassis with fibreglass body. The car originally was fitted with a V6 Renault engine and transmission, although later cars had V8 rover and chevys fitted. The car was sold as a kit in the UK from 1987 to the early nineties when the project was sold. At that time there were something in the region of 60-80 of the kits sold, most of which found there way into Europe, America, Australia and Japan. The project was sold to a company called NF auto development who still produce the replicas, I have seen spyder, berlinetta and can-am examples, including those fitted with V12 Ferrari engines:

http://www.nfauto.co.uk/

It is most likely that the cars you have seen on the roads are actually replicas. But if you have seen the real thing, you are truely very lucky indeed!;)

Hope this is of use.

Tom.

#24 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,717 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 31 January 2002 - 01:45

Thanks for your report Tom, and welcome to The Nostalgia Forum. Some of your information is in fact new (at least to me) and of great interest. In my searching for tidbits of data on the evolution of the P3 to the P4, and with some guidance, (thanks Roger) was able to read about some of that transition. Roger has already commented upon those findings so I needn't elaborate in that direction... During some seaching, I did find a nose that was offered for sale and an interesting story on the part. (though authentication hasn't been confirmed) I'll offer it here.

From The Pennsylvania Motorsport Company

Posted Image
Posted Image

"...The Ferrari 330 P3 and P4 are the most seductive shapes ever crafted by Scaglietti and Forghieri. Intricately fitted to the mechanically ultimate mid-engined Ferrari prototype, the 330P3/4s are … sexy.

But, like all race cars, changing rules and opportunities for starting money dictated new applications for old parts. The svelte 330 P4 bodies were shucked like old snakeskins to make Can-Am cars at the completion of the 1967 CSI championship series.

The panel offered here appears to be the original 330 P4 nose which graced the entry of Jackie Stewart and Chris Amon (chassis no. 0860) at the July 1967 BOAC 500km at Brands Hatch where it finished second, earning the extra point which secured the 1967 World Championship for Ferrari from Porsche. Old and tired, beat up and scarred, it bears about 60% of its original paint, and carries the race number "6" in characteristic style. According to historians, the only P4 which ever raced under the number "6" is the Stewart/Amon Brands Hatch car.

At the end of the ’67 season the CSI shrank the Group 6 sports car championship formula to 3 liters, leaving the 3,960cc P4s with nowhere to run. Ferrari, never one to waste a chassis or drive train, converted the P4s into the 350 Can-Am with bored-out engines of 4,176cc and modified bodywork. Chassis 0860 appeared at the Laguna Seca Can-Am in October 1967 as a 350, only three months after its last appearance as a P4, finishing an impressive fifth driven by Chris Amon.

It’s likely that the nose panel offered here, adorned with the race number 6 of the Brands Hatch BOAC 500km, was quickly discarded in the rush to transform 0860 from the CSI Group 6 330 P4 into the 4.2 liter Can-Am Ferrari 350. Tossed on a scrap pile, it had no further utility in a racing world that would take 312Ps and McLarens to championships.

Yet, this artifact of racing evolution and regulatory obsolescence is, most probably, the nose that crossed the line second in the 1967 BOAC 500 to leverage Ferrari to the World Championship over Porsche. It doesn’t get much more "historic" than that.

The part itself is visibly old, efflorescing quietly from years of exposure to the elements with the characteristic white fuzz that the lightweight magnesium-aluminum alloys of the period exhibit. Circumstantial though it may be, replica panels wouldn’t use exotic lightweight alloys. Large blobs of badly deteriorated mushy foam cap the carb air intake ducts. There is no hardware or emblems beyond the large "6" painted on the ancient nose.

Reach your own conclusion from the photographic evidence or on-site inspection. We think this is the P4 nose that poked over the line in the 1967 BOAC 500km and won the Manufacturers’ Championship for Ferrari on 330 P4 chassis 0860. In the heat of a three-way battle for the title among Ferrari, Porsche and Ford no more important or significant artifact of Ferrari history exits. It’s yours for $20,000, three-tenths of one percent of the value of the 330 P4 which it once led across the line..."


Perhaps if someone has the book -- Ferrari 330/P4 by Paolo Marasca & Chris Amon, the definitive story might be found. Here is a link: http://shop.store.ya...r330p4ibpa.html The introduction to this authoritative book claims the following:

"When enthusiasts speak of the "Ford-Ferrari Wars" at LeMans in the mid-1960s, this is the Ferrari of which they speak. This beautifully produced slipcase edition commemorates the great endurance race car, of which only four were ever built. Today, only three survive with an approximate market value of 10 million each. This exhaustive history of those fantastic cars examines their technical histories and development, their complete competition records, and the great drivers who raced them-including Jackie Stewart and Chris Amon-as well as primary adversaries like Carroll Shelby, Jim Hall, Mario Andretti, and Dan Gurney."



#25 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 67,076 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 31 January 2002 - 02:55

Originally posted by tom_neale
.....would like to hear from anyone who has any stories, race reports or photographs from the racing career of any of the P series sportscars. I am also looking for information on the Australian races .....


There is an abundance of information in the local press about the car, but it was usually a second-placegetter due to the dominance of Frank Matich in his SR3-Repco.

Here's a photo, captioned in Motor Racing Annual, 1968 as being a 'rare moment when Frank Matich was being led by Chris Amon...'

Posted Image

The photo was taken at Sandown Park approaching Shell Corner (near the pits).

Happy to help out, Tom, and welcome to the forum.

#26 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 31 January 2002 - 09:00

:) :) Thanks for the info guys. I would really like to hear more about where and when exactly Amon raced the car in Australia, thanks for the picture too! Please fell free to email me with any info you have.

I had seen the nose cone for sale on the internet a couple of weeks ago, and came to the same conclusion. However I had read that the bodywork from #0860 (that ran at brands as #6) was used in the building of #900. David Pipers P4, which was created from spare parts left over from remains of another P3/4, and no doubt the spares left over from racing. However it is likely that this may have been spare nose cones, and it appears as you say to be made at least of aluminium if not magnesium alum. If it is than why would someone attempt to offer a fake for only $20,000, it probably couldn't be made in magnesium aluminium for that sort of money. But one question is, why does it end up in the US?? If it was from that car you would have thought it would have returned to the factory after the Brands Hatch race, where it was modified to the Can Am spec and sent over to the US. There is one possible solution that the bodywork was interchangeable between the P4 Coupe front and rear ends and the can-am front and rear ends, I have read suggestions that this is the case.

The book you refer to was in 'Classic and Sportscar' in July last year, and received a mixed review ending with "a missed opportunity". The car featured in the book is appears to be #860 as you say, now owned by Pierre Bardinon. It is apparently now fitted with 'replica' bodywork. Interesting..... :confused:

#27 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 6,456 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 31 January 2002 - 10:08

I have just read the book "David McKay's Scuderia Veloce" written by David McKay! and he says that he bought the P4 (chassis no 0858) from Ferrari for US$30,000 and it came with a large quantity of spares and it was raced by Amon in the support races for the Tasman series and it did a few other races and was sold to Paul Hawkins for US$30,000 with the spares and raced by Hawkeye in South Africa where it won the Springbok Series then Hawkins flew to England and was killed in his Lola T70 at Oulton Park and the car and spares went to David Piper, he sold the car to an Orlando Florida prorerty developer. Piper put together another car (chassis no 0900) out of the spares with a chassis given to him by Ferrari for being their leading privateer!

Amon raced the car at:
Surfers Paridise 2nd,
Warwick Farm dnf,
Sandown 2nd,
Longford (March 2-4 1968) 1st preliminary race
3rd in main race after changing flat battery
182.94 mph on flying Mile
lap record 2.12.6.

Driven by Bill Brown at:
Bathurst (easter 1968) 1st (sports div1) 181 mph on conrod straight
1st (sports div1)
Warwick Farm Dnf
Lakeside 1st
Surfers Paradise 6 hour Dnf

There may have been a couple more races (or less) and these results may not be accurate ;)

#28 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 67,076 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 31 January 2002 - 12:37

To add some detail, the first race for the car in Australia was February 10 at Surfers Paradise. It was the Saturday, and it was clear that there were some shocks headed for the lap record after Matich recorded 1:10.2 in practice.

Matich dudded the start, however, but scorched around to be the first to take the lap record over the 100mph mark with a 1:10.6 (101.98mph) to Amon's 1:10.7, reeling the Ferrari in after four laps and diving under it when a slower car baulked Amon.

Two more 5-lappers were scheduled for Sunday, with Matich and his 4.2-litre tube-framed SR3 leading away and getting a full second advantage on the first lap. The Record was equalled as he took another win. In the second, Amon was a non-starter.

A week later at Warwick Farm came the race I speak of so often. The report says Matich "left ther Ferrari breathless..." as he led Amon a merry chase. That they came past us side by side, with a Tojiero between them being lapped and grass clippings flying on one lap in the race shows that it wasn't all that breathless!

Again, Matich was pressed to a new circuit record (these are outright records, faster than the Lotus 49s and the Amon Dino 2.4 managed on the day) of 1:28.5 in staving off the Ferrari. Amon retired with reported ignition trouble on lap 7 or 8.

The opening gambit of the Sandown Park report, the next week (February 25), was "This was the first time the Sandown crowd has had a chance to see Frank Matich really trying. The reason was, of course, that he had Chris amon and the P4 Ferrari to worry him." Matich bogged down at the start ("nearly burned a hole in the startline with wheelspin...") and Matich led away, but after a lap or two "braking late for Peters, Frank closed on Chris and went under him as they accelerated out onto Mobil (the back straight)." Matich won by four seconds, took the Sports Car record down to 1:07.2 (Clark nobbled the outright record in the Australian GP on the same day with a 1:07.1) and bowed out of any further contests. He wasn't happy to go to Longford.

There, of course, Amon had the fastest time ever through the trap on the flying mile and lapped at 2:14.4 in practice to easily take pole. In the Saturday race Amon set a new outright lap record of 2:12.6, four tenths quicker than Clark had done in the earlier preliminary event for the Tasman cars in the 49. This was 12.2 seconds better than the previous record, held by Bob Jane.

At that stage, it was only reasonable to conclude that Amon wouldn't hold the record over the whole weekend, but the heavens opened and deluged the circuit for Monday, his P4 suffered a battery failure and didn't even start the soggy sports car race and the openwheelers paddled round with a 1600cc McLaren taking the win.

In his book, McKay describes the torment of choosing a driver for the car for the ensuing year. His choice might have been big 'Pete' (Ian) Geoghegan, but there was pressure to give Bill Brown a go. There was also the possibility that Pete's huge frame might not fit... he was put into the team's 250LM for the year.

Bathurst was the first outing on April 14 & 15, which I would have thought daunting enough. With wire fences, rouch surface, two serious crashes injuring top drivers in the Gold Star event's practice sessions and all, one might be a little careful in such a fast car.

But Bill was out to show his stuff. The first race was a 3-lapper mixed in with the open-wheelers. Bartlett won that in the Brabham Alfa with Bill second about 11 seconds adrift and just 1.6 seconds clear of Niel Allen in the Elfin-Chev after Allen has spun on the first lap. Bartlett had fastest lap in 2:19.1, Allen did 2:19.4 and Brown 2:21.6. Maybe he was being careful after all...

As the report points out, "The last time anyone went really fast on Mt Panorama was back in 1962, when both David McKay and Bib Stillwell equalled Bill Patterson's flying eighth time of 169.81mph (sic). It has been said often since that it would probably take a sporty car to better it."

As mentioned above, Brown took the speed up to 181 mph, a big hike, but he was in pursuit of Allen at the time. The Elfin lapped in 2:18.4 but was parked at the top of the mountain when Brown scored his lucky win, with Geoghegan second in the LM, which improved its personal best time from 2:34.2 to 2:30.8 this first time the big fella got into it. Brown lapped in 2:19.6, just shy of the 100mph mark.

Warwick Farm's annual RAC Trophy race was on May 5. This was a prize event on the best circuit. Matich lapped in 1:29 for pole, Allen did 1:32.9, Brown 1:33.0 for the outside of the first row. But the Ferrari managed to get ahead of the Elfin off the line and was second into the first corner and stayed there as Matich built up a lead of about ten seconds over the early laps. Sand got into the throttle slides of the V12 engine, however, and the Ferrari retired to give Allen second spot.

This was the race where Matich "unwound a blinder on the last lap just to prove the car was still 'with it', chopping 1.2 seconds off his Tasman meeting record and leaving the new time at a staggering 1:27.3"

Lakeside on May 12 brought a pair of Scuderia Veloce 1 - 2s, but the opposition had died in the pre-race buildup. Matich cracked the lap record in practice with a 53.7 in his first appearance at the circuit since his crash there in 1965. Allen did a 55.3, Brown a 57.2.

The minor race came first, with Allen scoring a win and Matich fastest lap (55.2, new record anyway) with the Elfin taking the lead from the start as Matich eased away with a sick engine. Matich pitted, but continued, the Repco suffering a loose valve seat, which prevented him getting top horsepower as he nailed it to get that record in the book. Brown finished 1.5 seconds behind Allen and actually lapped two tenths faster at 56.3, both of them under Allen's old record.

The main event was a twenty-lapper, and in the minutes before the race Matich declared himself a non-starter and Allen trickled back into the pits with a bolt out of the steering. Brown was able to walk it in (best lap 58.4) as Geoghegan showed all his abilities at the helm of the 250LM to fill second ahead of a Lotus 23B. His best lap was 59.3 and he was less than nine seconds behind at the finish.

There was yet another race, an eight-lapper, at the end of the day, with the 2.5 open-wheelers combining with the fastest sports cars. The report doesn't clearly explain how Allen got to be behind Phil West's Scuderia Veloce Brabham-Repco, but he was and seemingly couldn't do anything about it. Btrown won as he liked, scoring another SV 1 - 2 with West second this time.

I would say that West got away best, then the brute force of the bigger engined cars overpowered him, only Allen was stuck behind him as Brown got through to the lead. Anyway, Allen spent the rest of the race back there in a frustrated third, "perhaps over-flushed with determination, hounded West in the best showing of brute tactics seen for a long while, the big Elfin almost running over the Brabham into BMC lap after lap as West stopped to look at the view and Brown scampered up over BP. Allen tried to go under into KLG, avoiding disaster by a hair's breadth, and pushed the Brabham wheel to wheel roudn the Eastern Loop. This excitement was too much, added to by Geoghegan who forced the 250LM to the front of Scott's Lotus 27 to fill fourth spot."

Des wrote well, didn't he? He pressed on.. "The big battle looked worse as the backmarkers were lapped, disaster being forever imminent as very slow cars found themselves caught up in the 140mph battle between Allen and West, the elfin being stopped and pointed with a desterity seldom seen these days. Allen failed to get through, perhaps through trying too hard, and it was disappointing to see him slipstream to the flag. Should the big power of the Elfin have carried it from Shell to the flag first? Maybe, ahd there been breathing space for the initial build up." Best lap to Brown, 56.6, Allen did 56.7, West 55.9, winning margin less than two seconds (1.6, actually).

Probably the event dearest to McKay's heart was the Surfers Paradise 12-hour... and he had Jim Palmer over from New Zealand to co-drive with Brown. But Palmer wasn't up to it, lapping over five seconds slower than Brown in practice and wearing himself out in the process. Matich, who was racing quite a lot during this year, even entered the SR3 in this race with Glynn Scott as co-driver (only 2.3 seconds behind Frank's times), so this car was the pace as the race got going, Brown following it through the field after both started slowly (Le Mans start). Lapping slower cars soon after the start, Brown was pushed off line and ran over some tyre markers on the edge and holed the radiator. The P4 was out...

Matich's Repco engine dropped its bundle very late in the race and Geoghegan and his brother Leo won the race in the 250LM.

That was the end of the P4's racing in Australia, as far as I can see. Matich was to debut his SR4 with its 5-litre quad-cam engine in November, cementing his position as top dog in the field and enabling him to go on and take more outright records.

#29 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 31 January 2002 - 14:36

:D Thanks very much Ray, for taking the time to add that. Excellent. :up:

#30 carnika

carnika
  • Member

  • 37 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 31 January 2002 - 15:21

I always thought the P3/P4 Ferrari had the sexiest shape ever, until I saw something even better: the Alfa Romeo Tipo 33 Stradale. :love:

http://www.din.or.jp.../eng/33s_1.html

#31 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,927 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 31 January 2002 - 17:56

Originally posted by tom_neale
I'm new to the forum, and this is my first post but I've been doing some research on the P4s and actually found the forum. ):



The third P4 to run in Can-Am was #0860. This car had debuted in 1967 at Le Man, before a second place at Brands Hatch in July in the hands of Surtees and a young scotsman called Jackie Stewart.



Tom.


A most interesting post Tom. Welcome to the forum, and hope you can maintain this standard.

One minor correction; Stewart drove with Chris Amon in the 1967 BOAC 500. Surtees drove a Lola T70.

#32 dbw

dbw
  • Member

  • 993 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 31 January 2002 - 19:11

as far as replicas go...how 'bout the tom mead "p4" ...a widened cooper single seater[!] with a 250 gt engine and a drogo body.....i remember it in a calif. repair shop in the late 60's.....looked pretty cool!

#33 dmj

dmj
  • Member

  • 2,002 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 31 January 2002 - 19:25

Yes, fascinating Tom Meade's Tomassima cars... A fascinating handful of gorgeous prototypes. One of them was even modelled by Hot Wheels: http://www.geocities.../Tomassima.html
A nice article about Tom and his cars was in an issue of French magazine Auto Passion some 2 years ago.

#34 Mobetta

Mobetta
  • New Member

  • 10 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 31 January 2002 - 20:00

In one of Jackie Stewart's books he refers to the P4 he raced at Brands as the best-handling racing car he drove in his career.It surprised me to learn that he liked the Ferrari so much.I was expecting him to say that the Matra-Ford was the best-handling car he raced.To be honest, it was not an unequivocal statement; he qualified his view with a lengthy explanation about how handling in competition terms is largely dependent on how successfully the car is set-up for a particular circuit.Nevertheless, his experience of working with Forghieri and the P4 in 1967 at Brands Hatch took the honors in his remembrances of great-handling cars.

It says a lot for the versatility of the P4 that it could beat the Fords and Chaparrals at Monza one weekend and the next weekend outrun the Porsches at the Targa Florio.

Does anyone know the story of the 275P3 at the 1966 Targa which was leading the race handily when Bandini was forced off the road by another competitor?I assume they fitted the smaller engine to an otherwise normal 330P3 in this particular race for reliability's sake.

#35 ray b

ray b
  • Member

  • 2,747 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 31 January 2002 - 20:27

Interesting that at least one car was in FLA prior to my street spot of a P3/4!!!!
ANY reports of 0858 after orlando sale????? was that sold in can-am trim or enduro???
ever restored to enduro body???? where is it now???? wonder if any were leaglely regestered/taged in fla???? think I saw a FLA tag on it!!
car I saw was a enduro body with thick wing/rollbar not a can-am body maybe in 81-83
not after 87 when repro's were made as I moved in 87 out of grove.

#36 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 31 January 2002 - 23:20

:up: Thanks for the correction Roger, you are of course correct. Speaking of which, I actually saw Surtees the other day, looking at buying a model of one of his old Can-Am cars!

Thanks for the Jackie Stewart info too Mobetta. The 330P that Bandini crashed on the Targa Florio was #0846 a factory P3, up rated to P3/4 specification or 412P as Ferrari called it, funnily enough this is the car that won the Daytona 24Hr race in 1967, it was eventually destroyed in a testing accident, and it is claimed that the parts went into David Pipers #0900. Another interesting thing I read suggested that there are two cars claiming to be #900, Pipers car and a second car built from ‘leftovers’ by NART claims the same chassis number.

Ray B, it’s possible that #0858 still resides in California, but it was probably converted back to P4 coupe bodywork for the springbok races of 1967/8, can anyone clarify that? I believe that in it’s last couple of races out in South Africa it ran as #6, could this be owner of the mysterious nosecone rather than #0860?? Plus is there any truth in the suggestion that Mike Hailwood raced #0858 at Magny Cour and Dijon in May ‘69? I’ve seen recent photographs of this car in full Can-Am trim, isn’t this all confusing??

Thanks to you guys we’ve almost cleared up #0858’s racing history, so what about #0844? I believe in ran in at least one SCCA national event in September 1968, is this true and what about the rest of that year??

:up: :up:

#37 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 67,076 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 01 February 2002 - 01:02

That nose wouldn't appear to be the one used in Australia... there's no NACA duct, is there? And the little spoilers don't appear to be there either...

#38 ffiloseta

ffiloseta
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 01 February 2002 - 01:51

Watch these:

Nürburgring 1000 km 1966: The 330 P3 s/n 0846 was the only Ferrari P at the start of the race. It was driven by John Surtees and Mike Parkes
Posted Image

Posted Image

Nürburgring 1000 km 1966: The 330 P3 s/n 0848 was seen in practice only. Lorenzo Bandini and John Surtees drove it before it was withdrawn.

Posted Image

The 330 P4 s/n 0846 was driven by Chris Amon and Nino Vaccarella. In the picture, Vaccarella leads the Chaparral 2F of Jennings/ Johnson through Les Esses. The Chaparral is one of my all-time favourites!
Posted Image

24h Le Mans 1967. Ludovico Scarfiotti and Mike Parkes placed 2nd with the 330 P4 s/n 0858
Posted Image

Le Mans 24 h 1967. The works-330 P4 s/n 0860 of Gunther Klass and Peter Sutcliffe retired
Posted Image

I tell you guys, this www.barchetta.cc site is awesome. :up:

#39 rdrcr

rdrcr
  • Member

  • 2,717 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 01 February 2002 - 05:51

Originally posted by Ray Bell
That nose wouldn't appear to be the one used in Australia... there's no NACA duct, is there? And the little spoilers don't appear to be there either...

Ray, I don't know about the NACA duct, I don't see one either, but the little spoilers are there. Just look under each headlamp bucket and you can see them pokeing through.

ffiloseta, Great Photos. Thanks for those and for the Barchetta link. As I was digging through there I noticed that they had shown six cars with the P3 / 4 designation. One, in the national colors of Belguim.

They have done a pretty fair job of tracing the history of each. I thought that there might have been more than a the 4 or 5 that I had heard of. This source claims that six were constructed, with one being destroyed... that being #0846.

Advertisement

#40 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 01 February 2002 - 09:04

I had already found a lot of information from the barchetta site, which as you say is excellent. It is on that site that it says that #0858 was raced by Hailwood at Dijon and Magny Cour is 1969, does anyone have a race report or results of those races???

That nose wouldn't appear to be the one used in Australia... there's no NACA duct, is there? And the little spoilers don't appear to be there either...



Ray, I didn't mean the can-am front nose which has the NACA duct, sorry. I mean the original P4 Coupe Nose cone, that may have been fitted back on the car after it was sold by McKay and raced in South Africa. The nose cone for sale, is definitely an original P4 front end rather than the Can-Am type with the NACA duct.

There were 3 P3's built, each eventually upgraded to 412P spec. There were two 412Ps built. So five cars ended up in P3/4 specification (412P). One of which was destroyed in a testing accident. That leaves 4. One of which was converted to the Can-Am car.

Three P4s were built of which two were converted to Can-Am cars. So that’s 7 in total remaining. Yet there's also David Pipers #900, made from the new chassis and spare parts, and this supposed second car on chassis number #0900. That's 9 possible cars remaining in total. :wave:

#41 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,927 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 01 February 2002 - 20:30

Originally posted by Mobetta


Does anyone know the story of the 275P3 at the 1966 Targa which was leading the race handily when Bandini was forced off the road by another competitor?I assume they fitted the smaller engine to an otherwise normal 330P3 in this particular race for reliability's sake.


Is this true? I thought it was an ordinary (!) 4-litre

#42 Mobetta

Mobetta
  • New Member

  • 10 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 01 February 2002 - 22:13

The only reference that I've found to the Vaccarella/Bandini 1966 Targa mount as a 275P3 is in Bernard Cahier's report on the race for "Sports Car Graphic", but later in the article he refers to the car as a 4-liter.The other contemporary magazine articles (Thank you Brooklands Books!) call it a 330P3 or just a P3.I also found two photo captions of Vaccarella driving the car which call it a 275P2, this confusion caused probably by the fact that Nino drove a 275P2 to victory the year before.

Anyway, despite all evidence to the contrary, I'm not convinced that it wasn't a 275P3 in the 1966 race because of the weak circumstantial evidence that if the P3's usual transmission trouble were to occur at any race, you'd certainly expect it to happen at the Targa and at the time of Bandini's crash they had experienced no problems.I also have a vague recollection of another reference which I can't find.

Does Cimarosti's Targa book have anything to say about this?Unfortunately, my motorsports library was purchased totally off the magazine racks and the bargain bins.

One fact which I was definitely wrong about was that Bandini was leading the race handily when he wrecked.Actually he was in a very close battle with the 2 Carrera 6's fitted with 2.2 liter 8-cylinder motors (Carrera 8's?) of Klass and Mitter.However these two Porsches collided with each other and dropped out on the same lap as Bandini.

#43 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 01 February 2002 - 23:12

It definitely was a 330 P3, I have copies of photographs from the race. The car competed in four events in '66: Sebring 12 Hr, Targa Florio, Nurburgring 1000km and the Le Mans 24 Hr Race, it Did not finish any of them! Mainly due to Gearbox and clutch problems, funnily enough!

The car won Daytona '67 (now in P3/4 spec) and was first in the qualification weekend for Le Man prior to that. It also competed in The Targa Florio that year again with Nino, it's final race was at Le Mans '67 in the hands of Chris Amon and again Vaccarella. It crashed out on the Targa and caught fire at Le Mans.

#44 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,927 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 01 February 2002 - 23:37

Originally posted by tom_neale


The car won Daytona '67 (now in P3/4 spec) and was first in the qualification weekend for Le Man prior to that. It also competed in The Targa Florio that year again with Nino, it's final race was at Le Mans '67 in the hands of Chris Amon and again Vaccarella. It crashed out on the Targa and caught fire at Le Mans.


Are you sure of that Tom? I thought the car that won Daytona 67 was one of he new P4s, probably 0856.

#45 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 02 February 2002 - 00:03

Roger, Although the results do say it was a 330 P4, it was believed to be a P3/4 #0846. The P4 you refer to #0856 was second, and third place was another P3/4 ran by NART. It does seem to be correct as the other two cars were berlinettas, the famous photo of the 1-2-3 show the winner #23 as a Spyder. I have checked through other photographs from the '67 season and the other results all seem to match, so I believe it is correct. :)

#46 ray b

ray b
  • Member

  • 2,747 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 02 February 2002 - 02:31

Originally posted by tom_neale


There were 3 P3's built, each eventually upgraded to 412P spec. There were two 412Ps built. So five cars ended up in P3/4 specification (412P). One of which was destroyed in a testing accident. That leaves 4. One of which was converted to the Can-Am car.

Three P4s were built of which two were converted to Can-Am cars. So that’s 7 in total remaining. Yet there's also David Pipers #900, made from the new chassis and spare parts, and this supposed second car on chassis number #0900. That's 9 possible cars remaining in total. :wave:

BUT 4 P-4's raced at le manz in addition to 3"TARTEDUP" P-3's[3/4?] and one P-2 in 67 as per R&T's HNM

#47 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,927 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 February 2002 - 07:06

Originally posted by tom_neale
Roger, Although the results do say it was a 330 P4, it was believed to be a P3/4 #0846. The P4 you refer to #0856 was second, and third place was another P3/4 ran by NART. It does seem to be correct as the other two cars were berlinettas, the famous photo of the 1-2-3 show the winner #23 as a Spyder. I have checked through other photographs from the '67 season and the other results all seem to match, so I believe it is correct. :)


Tom, you may be right on this. I can only find evidence of one open car raced by the works team in 1967 and it must be this one. Amon drove it at Le Mans and was referrd to as a pseudo-P4. I also know that you have done a lot of work on this subject and you are more likely to be right than not.

However, if we accept that the Daytona winning car was 0846, is it fair to refer to it as a P3/4, or even as a 412P? THe 1967 customer cars retained the 1966 engine with 2valves per cylinder and the ZF gearbox. THe P4s, and the Daytona winning car had 36 valve engines, Ferrari gearboxes and new, wider wheels. Tanner and Nye say that 0846 was brought to "near P4 specification" and retained by the works. It certainly seems to be much closer to P4 specification than the other P3/4s. P4/3?

Later update Thinking about it a little more, the question of open or closed cars can't help identify the P4s. All three cars that raced at Brands Hatch in July were open. It must have been a simple matter to remove the roof.

#48 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 03 February 2002 - 22:22

Rayb, Ferrari claim that they were only three factory P4s built. At Le Man in '67 ferrari had an 8 car attack on the race, in the hope of beeting the might of Ford. But it's an interesting point that you've raised that may answer the problem. They ran three P4s (two under the Ferrari team and one under the Equipe Nationale Belge team), these were joined by three of the uprated P3s (one ran by Maranello Concessionaires, one by NART and one by Scuderia Filipinetti) and also a lone 365P2. However there was a fourth car, referred to as a P4 in the entry list as you said, but this was believed to be the P3/4 that won daytona, yes mysterious number #0846. It was again driven by Amon but with Vaccarella.

Roger, you are correct again with the bodywork. #0846 appeared at Spa (prior to Daytona) as a berlinetta, I believe the roof was removable, and the top section of doors/window frame was as bolt on/off affair, well spotted! Also your most probably right that this particular car was closer to the P4 spec than the other P3/4, possibly this was the factory test car that had originally ran the new P4 engine and components that was kept running as a team car. However I expect that all of the cars were very similar to the P4 spec as they were not true 'customer' cars. The cars supplied to these teams were not always a true customer car sold to a client. With the possible exception of Scuderia Filipinetti, the other cars were factory machines run under the banner of another team. NART, Maranello Con. and Equipe Belge were all Ferrari Dealers, who ran teams in conjunction with Ferrari. Was this just simply another way of entering more works cars? well it is widely believed it was. The mysterious #0846 for example was actually run by NART at Le Mans in '66, but the car reappeared under the works banner in '67. And the P4 ran by Equipe Nationale Belge at Le Mans '67, reappeared Weeks later at Brands Hatch BOAC 500 as a works car.

The P3/4 spec was the P3 with P4 suspension, I was under the impression that they were also fitted 4 litre 36 Valve twin cam V12s (the same as the P4). Although possibly one or two may of retained the original P3 engine as you say Roger. They were most likely almost exactly the same as the P4s, as throughout their history Ferrari would cut and carve last years cars into the next. The only major difference was that the retained the original ZF gearbox, as opposed to the Ferrari units fitted to the P4s.

Roger, You refer to "Tanner and Nye", could you tell me more about them please?

#49 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,927 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 03 February 2002 - 22:57

Tom

Tanner and Nye is the book Ferrari originally wrtitten by Hans Tanner, but updated in later editions by Doug Nye.


My knowledge of the P3/4 mechanical specification comes mainly from Motor Sport. In June 1967, DSJ wrote:

The P4 is essentially a works car for this year and certain private owners were sold improved versions of last years cars. Outwardly these looked like P4 cars, having the same coupe bodywork, but they differ mechanically having the 1966 tyoe of 4 ohc engine with carburettors feeding the inlet ports in the vee of the unit, but they have the P4 suspension improvements and the P4 outboard brake disks and the gearbox is a 5-speed ZF unit.



He went on to say that such cars were being raced by ENB, Maranello Concessionaires, NART and Filipinetti. Tanner and Nye say much the same, although admitedly if Doug Nye wrote that section, he is likely to have used Motor Sport as a source. They also say that the P4 was slightly bigger in all dimensions, though this may have been the result of the suspension changes.

The two engines are quite different to look at with the different layout of the inlet ports, so it should be easy to tell which is which if anyone has a photo.

#50 tom_neale

tom_neale
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 04 February 2002 - 00:16

:) Roger, On close inspection of the excellent photographs on the barchetta ferrari website, #0844 and #0850 both have the original P3 engine, according to your description, with the carbs in the centre of the V. There are no photos of the engine of #0846, and I cannot find any in my collection, does anyone know of any?? It is possible that this car had the P4 engine as you suggest Roger, it's performance surely justifies your suggestion. And thanks for all your help. :)
Does the Tanner book contain info of all the P3s and P4s in detail? Such as race results and reports?