77 replies to this topic

[rtcoman]

Hi,

Lately I have thought about the possibility that some crashes - fatal or not - may not have happened accidentally, rather they may have been :
a) murder or attempted murder - by sabotaging the car or other means ;
b) suicide or attempted suicide.

Have you ever heard of crashes that have been confirmed or at least strongly suspected to fit any of the above criteria.

[stevew]

Originally posted by rtcoman
Hi,

Lately I have thought about the possibility that some crashes - fatal or not - may not have happened accidentally, rather they may have been :
a) murder or attempted murder - by sabotaging the car or other means ;
b) suicide or attempted suicide.

Have you ever heard of crashes that have been confirmed or at least strongly suspected to fit any of the above criteria.

See this:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=35560

[AndreasF1]

Some questions in this forum never cease to amaze me

[ensign14]

I still think Pete Aron was trying to kill Stoddard. Envy is a terrible thing.

[McRonalds]

We recently deiscussed a strange case - but who knows the truth... and I think it was Cabianca who wrote in the thread about '2 Indy mysteries':

Speaking of Carracciola's crash at Indy in 46. I believe it may have been Neubauer who wrote that it was caused by a misguided "patriot" firing a gun at the German. Can anyone provide the source of this speculation. There was talk of this being hushed up, but to my knowledge no one has ever tried to straighten this out by combing the Indianapolis city police files or those of the Indiana State Police or the FBI, which would surely have been in on such a case. Carracciola made his recovery at the owner of the Speedway's house. That was Tony Hulman, grandfather of the IRL's Tony George.

I still think this is a speculation - but a strange story anyway...

[ensign14]

Neubauer spun a good yarn but his historical accuracy leaves something to be desired (vide Tripoli GP).

[McRonalds]

I remember this (or something like this, maybe anyone can correct me) happened during the PROCAR series 79/80, when Hans Stuck had a confrontation with Didier Pironi, called him a KILLER and wanted to collar him...

Later he had to excuse for that faux pas (with the words: 'I'm sorry I called you a killer, but you're an arsehole anyway.')

But I don't know what happened on the road - that drove Stuck so mad.

[Haddock]

This is dragged from my memory and therefore I wouldn't put too much weight by it, but I'm sure I remember reading a book called 'Grand Prix Requiem' at my father's place a few years ago that told of a driver who died in a race at Brno (?) in the 1930s, where there had always been some suspicion that the accident was suicide.

Perhaps someone with the book to hand can put me right on that one.

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by Haddock
This is dragged from my memory and therefore I wouldn't put too much weight by it, but I'm sure I remember reading a book called 'Grand Prix Requiem' at my father's place a few years ago that told of a driver who died in a race at Brno (?) in the 1930s, where there had always been some suspicion that the accident was suicide.

I read that too - though the 30ties are not my speciality. The driver was Josef Brazdil and crashed during the '34 race. There was rumours it was suicide for he was in massive financial problems.

More infos about that strange story?

[fines]

Originally posted by McRonalds
I remember this (or something like this, maybe anyone can correct me) happend during the PROCAR series 79/80, when Hans Stuck had a confronation with Didier Pironi, called him a KILLER and wanted to collar him...

Later he had to excuse for that faux pas (with that words: 'I'm sorry I called you a killer but you're an arsehole anyway.')

But I don't know what happend on the road - that Stuck drove so mad.

It was 1979, and I can't recall the incident completely, but it happened on the approach to the first chicane. My first thoughts had been that it was quite a stupid mistake by Stuck, and I was as stumped as apparently Pironi himself at the accusations.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

More infos about that strange story?

Here:


http://www.atlasf1.c...t=Josef Bradzil


Stefan

[rdrcr]

Crimes committed in Motorsports are a rare thing... We have discussed the abuses of some, The Paul family comes to mind. There are others, some of which I'd never heard of like the possible suicide of Josef Brazdil but murder in the guise of sabotage or assignation? one in particular that I recall, that may not have been mentioned was the kidnapping of Fangio.

Didn't some Cuban nationals kidnap him and hold him for ransom?

IIRC, In 1958 he was kidnapped in Cuba by Cuban nationals. He was there preparing for the Cuban Grand Prix in Havana. He was freed soon afterwards unhurt as the kidnappers only wanted to gain media attention. This would seem to me to be the biggest headline story in history of a racing driver involved in a crime, as by this point he was a national hero.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by rtcoman
Hi,

Lately I have thought about the possibility that some crashes - fatal or not - may not have happened accidentally, rather they may have been :
a) murder or attempted murder - by sabotaging the car or other means ;
b) suicide or attempted suicide.

Have you ever heard of crashes that have been confirmed or at least strongly suspected to fit any of the above criteria.

First, I think you've been watching too many detective shows on television!

But, the one incident that springs to mind was the accident in the Japanese Group 7 series in the early 70's (1973?), that led to two driver fatalities (Seiichi Suzuki one of them). The driver that triggered the accident reported admitted he was trying to prevent a rival driver (on a different brand of tires) from claiming the championship. He was charged with manslaughter.

I have no idea how this came out, but I remember reading a piece on it in Autoweek.


Jim Thurman

[Hitch]

I heard f1-amazon Giovanna Amati was kidnapped when she was a teenager. Far off the theme, I know - but as Jim Thurman pointed out - we're probabaly watching to much detective shows. I think a large ransom was payed and the crime never was resolved.

Hans Herrmann too was victim of an assault. It's a shame there's not a single word written about it in his biography. But that was years after he had finished his career.

I think I'll go watching another thriller.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


First, I think you've been watching too many detective shows on television!

But, the one incident that springs to mind was the accident in the Japanese Group 7 series in the early 70's (1973?), that led to two driver fatalities (Seiichi Suzuki one of them). The driver that triggered the accident reported admitted he was trying to prevent a rival driver (on a different brand of tires) from claiming the championship. He was charged with manslaughter.

I have no idea how this came out, but I remember reading a piece on it in Autoweek.

Come to think of it, I think this was in 1974 and I think Hiroshi Kazato was the other driver that died in the accident. Suzuki and Kazato were, at that time, the only Japanese drivers I was familiar with as both had competed in the U.S.


Jim Thurman

[stevew]

There was an incident between Oscar Larrauri and A.J. Foyt during an IMSA GTP race in San Diego, Del Mar, I think. Sometime in the mid '80s.

There was a "misunderstanding" between these two drivers at a hairpin and Larrauri basically got away with it and carried on. Foyt, however, had some damage to his car and remained "parked" at the inside of the corner, engine still running.

The next time Larrauri came around, A.J. hit the accelerator and aimed his stricken car directly at Larrauri. Foyt mostly missed, but did manage to damage "the enemy's" car.

It was the only time I've ever seen a driver "lay in wait" like that.

[AndreasF1]

This maybe a little off topic but I came to think of a detective documentary in the US on discovery channel about an Australian serial killer who used to race in the Miami Grand Prix of 1984. It was some sort of american touring car race. What I remember was that he preyed on young woman in Australia and then moved to the US and continued his killing spree. He was later chased down by the cops and killed in a shuffle with some cop at a gas station.

AndreasF1

Coming to think of it the show was called new detectives

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Hitch
I heard f1-amazon Giovanna Amati was kidnapped when she was a teenager. Far off the theme, I know - but as Jim Thurman pointed out - we're probabaly watching to much detective shows. I think a large ransom was payed and the crime never was resolved.

Version I read had it that she fell in love with the kidnapper,and he was caught when she tried to contact him again after release.

[Psychoman]

one in particular that I recall, that may not have been mentioned was the kidnapping of Fangio.

Didn't some Cuban nationals kidnap him and hold him for ransom?

IIRC, In 1958 he was kidnapped in Cuba by Cuban nationals. He was there preparing for the Cuban Grand Prix in Havana. He was freed soon afterwards unhurt as the kidnappers only wanted to gain media attention. This would seem to me to be the biggest headline story in history of a racing driver involved in a crime, as by this point he was a national hero.

Yeah, I had a Road and Track issue with an interview with one of the last survivors of that episode, who was appointed Tourism Minister after Castro took power. He also said that Fangio became friends with the kidnappers afterwards, as the kidnapping forced Fangio to miss a bad startline crash; he believed that he would have died if he had been in the race!

[William Hunt]

Originally posted by McRonalds
[B... Carracciola's crash at Indy in 46. I believe it may have been Neubauer who wrote that it was caused by a misguided "patriot" firing a gun at the German. Can anyone provide the source of this speculation. There was talk of this being hushed up, but to my knowledge no one has ever tried to straighten this out by combing the Indianapolis city police files or those of the Indiana State Police or the FBI, which would surely have been in on such a case. ...... [/B]

Alfred Neubauer was prone to fantasy ! He was great at telling stories but always bends the truth to make it sound more interesting. Caraciola was hit by a bird !

[William Hunt]

[i]....Caraciola was hit by a bird ! [/B]

PS : I meant the animal 'bird' not bird in the sense of a girl !!!

[Hitch]

Originally posted by Rob29
Version I read had it that she fell in love with the kidnapper,and he was caught when she tried to contact him again after release.

I like your story! It's better than mine. :yawn:

[William Hunt]

Does anyone know the details of the Amati kidnapping affair ? Can it be found on the web ?

[Slyder]

Not autoracing, but anyone remember that incident in 1993 when an idiot deranged Stefi Graff fan stabbed Monica Seles (and nearly killed her) because "he didn't wanted her to take away the #1 spot from Graff."

Unfortunately this incident ruined her career since she never was the same after that.

Asshole

[st59cz]

What was with fatal accident of Robert Mazaud? Two in accident involved drivers were banned from racing for some time... It was not cleerly rumoured about Mazaud´s collaboration during WW.
It true or not?

[GMiranda]

There was an incident between Oscar Larrauri and A.J. Foyt during an IMSA GTP race in San Diego, Del Mar, I think. Sometime in the mid '80s.

There was a "misunderstanding" between these two drivers at a hairpin and Larrauri basically got away with it and carried on. Foyt, however, had some damage to his car and remained "parked" at the inside of the corner, engine still running.

The next time Larrauri came around, A.J. hit the accelerator and aimed his stricken car directly at Larrauri. Foyt mostly missed, but did manage to damage "the enemy's" car.

It was the only time I've ever seen a driver "lay in wait" like that.

 

Wasn't Foyt punished after this? And was here that Larrauri told he was an idiot, and then the broadcaster said Larrauri was the sole men alive to call Foyt an idiot?

[Michael Ferner]

A brave man, indeed!

Was Foyt punished? I don't know. Any earthly human would probably have been banned for life, but Foyt being Foyt...

Reminds me of a joke I once read: a racing driver dies, and goes to heaven. Upon arrival he sees posters, announcing the running of the "Heavenly 500", and succeeds in securing a ride. He happily races in the big event, until he's suddenly overtaken in a big rush of speed by a driver with the letters "AJ" on the helmet. Unnerved, he pits soon after, and inquires of his crew about the driver, admitting to not having heard about Foyt's demise. "Naaah", says his crew chief, "that's not Foyt. It's just God, but he thinks he's A. J. Foyt"

Edited by Michael Ferner, 18 September 2016 - 06:25.

[Lee Nicolle]

Wasn't Foyt punished after this? And was here that Larrauri told he was an idiot, and then the broadcaster said Larrauri was the sole men alive to call Foyt an idiot?

Unfortunatly I have seen it happen a few times, both in road racing and speedway. And worse at top levels and the miscreants largely got away with it.

[GMiranda]

A brave man, indeed!

Was Foyt punished? I don't know. Any earthly human would probably have been banned for life, but Foyt being Foyt...

Reminds me of a joke I once read: a racing driver dies, and goes to heaven. Upon arrival he sees posters, announcing the running of the "Heavenly 500", and succeeds in securing a ride. He happily races in the big event, until he's suddenly overtaken in a big rush of speed by a driver with the letters "AJ" on the helmet. Unnerved, he pits soon after, and inquires of his crew about the driver, admitting to not having heard about Foyt's demise. "Naaah", says his crew chief, "that's not Foyt. It's just God, but he thinks he's A. J. Foyt"

That's a good one indeed....

I know Foyt was too legendary for being haevily punished...

[E1pix]

If I make it up there, I hope it ain't Foyt deciding if I get in -- because I'd have to admit to being a bigger Mario fan. ;-)

[FLB]

If I make it up there, I hope it ain't Foyt deciding if I get in -- because I'd have to admit to being a bigger Mario fan. ;-)

Oh, Mario was no saint. He took Josele Garza out of a race one time (I don't remember where) as revenge for something Garza did at Indianapolis in 1984. That being said, what I do have is first-hand info from a Newman-Haas tech that he deliberately took Eddie Cheever out at Long Beach in 1992. When Carl Haas asked him point-blank in the motorhome afterwards if he'd done it on purpose, Mario just smiled...

Edited by FLB, 18 September 2016 - 12:13.

[chunder27]

Seems bullies can actually win doesnt it.

 

Awful man.

[Henri Greuter]

Another strange one, rumor or truth?

 

a true accident that ended up more serious, eventually fatal on the driver supposedly on purpose:   Ed Elisian in Milwaukie, August 1959.

 

Ed had been involved in and was the driver held most responsible for the first lap accident at Indy in in 1958 and a lot of rumours were told about him and the situation he got into within his private live which had made him vulnerable for doing unusual things on and off the race track. Up to the extend that some drivers were afraid of him and his doings.

I have read stories that, when Ed had his (eventually) fatal crash, other drivers who found out that it was Elisian who had crashed continued racing and thus made it more difficult for safety crews to come to the rescue of Ed and that this behaviour then contributed to the fact that Ed could not survive the accident any more.

Rumor or truth?

Certainly a legend

 

Henri

[Collombin]

The other drivers, upon seeing it was Elisian, deliberately hampered the rescue process - that's the essence of this story?

I vote utter BS.

[Henri Greuter]

The other drivers, upon seeing it was Elisian, deliberately hampered the rescue process - that's the essence of this story?

I vote utter BS.

 

That's indeed the rumor. or at best: that the men didn't care about it that much that Elisian was in troubles.

By that time the reputation of Elisian was very bad among other drivers and he was held responsible for the accident that killed popular Pat O'Connor, who was very popular among his peers.

He was said to be taking extreme risks not only for himself but for other drivers he competed against as well.

 

I agree, It's an unlikely story but if what I did read about Elisian is indeed true and in what kind of position he head brought himself into, then I can indeed imagine that a number of drivers would not be very unhappy if Ed was out of the running for a while.

 

 

Henri

[Michael Ferner]

I vote utter BS.

+ 1

[Tim Murray]

This earlier thread on Elisian may be of interest:

The real Ed Elisian...

[Jim Thurman]

Rumor, pure and simple with strong evidence that it never happened. Most stories about Ed Elisian are complete and utter nonsense fabricated primarily by one factually challenged writer that have spread wildly in recent years via the internet. The only people who blamed Elisian for O'Connor's death at the time were some in the media.

 

It gets very tiresome chasing this ridiculous rumor all over the internet. It just won't die.

[Henri Greuter]

Rumor, pure and simple with strong evidence that it never happened. Most stories about Ed Elisian are complete and utter nonsense fabricated primarily by one factually challenged writer that have spread wildly in recent years via the internet. The only people who blamed Elisian for O'Connor's death at the time were some in the media.

 

It gets very tiresome chasing this ridiculous rumor all over the internet. It just won't die.

 

 

Since I am the one who brought up again this, what you call ridiculous rumor, would you mind to be more specific with mentioning who is the one factually challenged writer?

My main source of why I remember the story is indeed the thread mentioned posts before as well as a book by a writer of who I have the feeling you are referring to. And I do know about this particular writer that within another book in which he almost slaughtered another driver who has been heavily critized for an accident about which so many faulty facts were told from day one on.

 

I don't mind to be proven incorrect and corrected if facts and data where I can find such are given. So if you and/or others can provide such clues, thanks in advance. I don't mind to learn a few things or so. And when I am wrong, I don't feel too proud to acknowledge such.

 

 

Henri

[Doug Nye]

The first I heard of that Elisian story was from Buford here on TNF.  I rated it disgusting then, and still do.  Some alleged enthusiasts are just too inclined to wallow in such BS...

 

DCN

[Thundersports]

Martin Schanche on more than one occasion. The one I witnessed was at Brands when the red mist set in after a coming together with Eklund at Paddock he went up Hailwood Hill flat out causing a large shunt at Druids.

Edited by Thundersports, 19 September 2016 - 21:25.

[Thundersports]

[chunder27]

You can't blame Martin for that, the throttle was stuck open. Not his fault in any way.

 

But he did take out Matti Alamaki in Sweden in 1988 flat out into a bend.

And then the infamous in Finland when he messed up himself, went up a bank, the field behind went side by side with him, and he got out the car and stood in the middle of the track. That was his fault!!

[Thundersports]

Yes recall those Chunder but I understand he had a ignition kill switch in the Escort that he failed to use at Brands. I'm cynical that the throttle was stuck open.

Edited by Thundersports, 19 September 2016 - 23:41.

[Lee Nicolle]

Too many drivers panic and do not react when the throttle jams. I have seen the aftermath of that a few times. And even if the driver does react you still lose time turning off switches. By then the damage has been done.

[Pablo Vignone]

Two weeks ago, when in Mexico during the WEC race, I heard a weird story concerning former Lotus F-1 driver Moisés Solana. He lost his life in an accident when doing a hillclimb in Bosencheve. The story a former journalist told me was that Solana was shot because he was playing some awful games with a general's wife... Then, the car was put then on fire to clear the evidence. 

[Henri Greuter]

The first I heard of that Elisian story was from Buford here on TNF.  I rated it disgusting then, and still do.  Some alleged enthusiasts are just too inclined to wallow in such BS...

 

DCN

 

 

Thank you Sir.

 

 

Henri

 

 

Edit:  Not intended as insult but thanks for taking the time to fill me in !!!!!!

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 20 September 2016 - 13:08.

[Arjan de Roos]

Two weeks ago, when in Mexico during the WEC race, I heard a weird story concerning former Lotus F-1 driver Moisés Solana. He lost his life in an accident when doing a hillclimb in Bosencheve. The story a former journalist told me was that Solana was shot because he was playing some awful games with a general's wife... Then, the car was put then on fire to clear the evidence. 

Mexican Solana was a driver with many other 'strange' stories surrounding him. In fact just a F1 driver for participating in his home GP.

He had started with #13 in a BRM.

In 1966 he let Ron Dennis make his debute as mechanic!

He was invited by Ferrari to come to Modena for testing an F1 and an F2. His hotel room was the same where Ricardo Rodríguez had stayed. Upon learning this he would (supposedly) have declined an offer from Ferrari. Solana was of course at the Mexican GP when Ricardo had his accident.

No slough but a pretty fast driver. Hit his McLaren in a bridge at a (what he had stated himself) a dangerous corner.

[GMiranda]

Two weeks ago, when in Mexico during the WEC race, I heard a weird story concerning former Lotus F-1 driver Moisés Solana. He lost his life in an accident when doing a hillclimb in Bosencheve. The story a former journalist told me was that Solana was shot because he was playing some awful games with a general's wife... Then, the car was put then on fire to clear the evidence. 

 

Oh this is anotehr completely new one to me!!!!! Solana was an idol in Mexico, one of their best drivers ever, and one of those "what if" he had come to Europe.

[Henri Greuter]

Will I be crushed for this one?

 

I remember having read the following outlines of a story as it appears in the Dutch translation of Rudolf Carrracciola's biography.

 

He went to the USA after the death of his first wife `Charly` (in the mid 30's) and apart from visiting Indianapolis, he also attended a oval dirt track race, I recall he wrote about midgets but i am not sure anymore right now if the event that i want to bring up was either at a midget event or another dirt track race. Anyway, Rudolf attended a race and noticed the tension between some drivers on the sidelines and between two drivers on the track. Rudolf then described how one driver at the track was out on getting revenge on another driver and together they had an accident caused by the one seeking revenge.

I do'n't have the booklet at hand right now but if challenged, I'll be willing to search the further details. I don't know if this story appeard in the English translations . Carracciola did not list names in the Dutch translation and neither can I recall the location of the track where this happened.

 

 

Henri