54 replies to this topic

[ry6]

The thread on the Gilby and Keith Greene buying a factory Maserati 250F made me remember Horace Gould.
Apparently he was quite a character and I have read a few amusing but very brief anecdotes about him.
Can anyone offer something more factual?

[MarkWill]

He seems to be quite popular in the "who was the greatest british driver" thread. Thats all I can offer

[David McKinney]

Um - that was a joke, based on the belief that Horace's only claim to greatness was his great size

And, while I'm here, it was not Keith Greene who bought the 250F Maserati, but his father

[ensign14]

Dammit, I TOLD you all to get 'Cooper Cars' by Doug Nye! There's loads on Big Orrice there. There's also a page in DSJ's small but valuable book 'The Maserati 250F', which also has a picture of Ottorino Volonterio as a bonus.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Um - that was a joke,

Indeed it was, inspired by Richie's mention of the similarly dietarily challenged Gerry Marshall, which I'm pretty sure was offered in the same spirit ...

Originally posted by David McKinney
...based on the belief that Horace's only claim to greatness was his great size

I've actually always had a certain admiration for Horace. Roly-poly he may have been, but you have to respect someone who flogged around Europe running a 250F for nothing more than starting money!

[MarkWill]

Hi David. Actually, I sorta figured that he was great for reasons other than the more conventional one ;) . I promise, no PROMISE I won't fake taking jokes seriously again

[Don Capps]

I liked 'Orrice GooUld. He would actually take a few moments to speak with us pit & paddock urchins.... .... plus he drove a Maserati 250F and that was enough for me at the time. Oh, I could actually almost speak with him with too much trouble when he was on the Continent, an advantage I mercilessly learned to utilize to my parent's dismay (and occasional horror....) in those days before English became common.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Don Capps
I liked 'Orrice GooUld ....

O/T - that's a VERY good impression of a Bristol (or Brissle) accent, Don, as I'm sure Darren and others from around here can confirm! Can you remember 'Orrice adding the letter L to the ends of words that ended with an A? That's another Bristol habit - they take holidays in Americal, Australial and Fuerteventural and will often talk about something being a "good ideal" (good idea) while I heard someone recently talking about her children having "sickness and diarrhoeal"!

[Roger Clark]

One of the great Horace Gould stories concerns the 1957 Naples Grand Prix. He was on the second row of the grid. THe front row was filled with works Ferraris who would clearly win, barring accidents. Gould's ambition was to be the first privateer home; he realised that to do this he needed a good start. He warned the Ferrari drivers that he intended to lead the race into the first corner and they had better make room for him. Everything went according to plan and he led the race for the first half lap and finished the race as the leading private owner. THe picture, which I stloe from Denis Jenkinson's "The Racing Driver" shows Hawthorn and Collins diverging sufficiently to make way for our hero, and Hawthorn looking nervously into his mrror to see where the Maserati has got to.

[Vicuna]

Horace Gould is well remembered in NZ for starting in the inaugral NZ International Grand Prix at Ardmore. The year was 1954 - 2 yrs before Stirling's first visit ( and win) and a yr before Prince Bira won in his blue 250F.

Horace brought out a Cooper Bristol (CB/11/53) and shared the front row of the 4-4-4 grid with:

Ken Wharton(V16 BRM), Peter Whitehead(V12 Ferrari 125), and Stan (father of Alan)Jones in the famous Maybach Special.

Other notable drivers included one J.A.Brabham(CB/1/54) and Tony Gaze in an HWM Alta. Gould was 4th.

He returned in 1957 with the 250F(2514) and qualified 6th but retired from 4th on the 15th lap of 120.

[David McKinney]

The best-remembered thing about Gould's 1954 NZ visit is that he thought he'd won the Grand Prix. It was only after weeks of checking official and private lap-charts that the results were confirmed.
In 1957 he contested the full NZ international series (Ardmore, Wigram, Dunedin, Ryal Bush) with the Maser, but finished only the last of these races, in third place.
Incidentally, the c/no of Brabham's Cooper-Bristol was actually CBMk2/1/53 (and Gould's was CBMk2/11/53)

[Ted Walker]

Horace Gould was a well known garage owner in Bristol in the 1950 s (as was my late father] I think it was called Time Garage. One of his first competition cars was a cooper MG , before going on to a Cooper Bristol. He was christened the Gonzalez of the west. I was talking to his son at Castle Combe last year, There are stories of epic drives very early in the morning between Fred Tucks garage in Weston Super Mare( another well known west country Maserati driver} and Goulds garage in Bristol in the 250F.

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The best-remembered thing about Gould's 1954 NZ visit is that he thought he'd won the Grand Prix. It was only after weeks of checking official and private lap-charts that the results were confirmed.

Wasn't Gould declared the winner, but refused to accept the Trophy? I think he said somehting like he was either second or fourth, but impossibly the winner!!?

[David McKinney]

Not quite, Michael.
He was originally classified fourth (I think). He claimed to have won, at which point the organisers said they'd made a mistake, and that he was actually second. It was at this point that he refused the trophy, saying he'd either won or he was fourth.
There are, incidentally, many today who still dispute the results as officially confirmed, but I don't think there's any doubt that Stanley Jones was the winner.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Does anyone have more on Horace ?

[Doug Nye]

There is a story that Horace was deeply impressed by the beneficial effects of nitro-methane when added to 500cc F3 car fuel systems. He then heard that Leslie Hawthorn had been similarly impressed and that Bristol - the engine manufacturing company - had just twigged that young Mike Hawthorn's wonderful Cooper-Bristol performances in 1952 had been achieved by enhancing his driving talents with carefully 'laced' fuel. So Big Orrice tried adding a little 'jungle juice' to the fuel of his Cooper-Bristol in 1953, and it went better. Then - reasoning that if a cup-full improved performance a little then a can-full should improve it a lot - he poured all he could find into the tank, and set off round Goodwood. The perhaps predictable result was an almighty blow-up at peak revs down the Lavant Straight - piston-crown first presumably...

"Goo - bugger I - perhaps we overdone it...?"

DCN

[Eric Dunsdon]

Prior to the 1955 British Grand Prix at Aintree there was a parade of drivers seated in Austin-Healey's. When the car carrying Horace Gould arrived at Waterways Corner the crowd gave him a good natured cheer. "You wont be laughing when I come round over there!" Horace called out jovially. H.H Gould was one of the great characters of 1950's motor racing. As well as the 250F I recall seeing him drive Cooper-MG and Kieft-Bristol sports cars and his Formula 2 Cooper-Bristol with which he gained that 'Gonzalez Of The West Country' tag.

[RA Historian]

There is a story that Horace was deeply impressed by the beneficial effects of nitro-methane when added to 500cc F3 car fuel systems. He then heard that Leslie Hawthorn had been similarly impressed and that Bristol - the engine manufacturing company - had just twigged that young Mike Hawthorn's wonderful Cooper-Bristol performances in 1952 had been achieved by enhancing his driving talents with carefully 'laced' fuel. So Big Orrice tried adding a little 'jungle juice' to the fuel of his Cooper-Bristol in 1953, and it went better. Then - reasoning that if a cup-full improved performance a little then a can-full should improve it a lot - he poured all he could find into the tank, and set off round Goodwood. The perhaps predictable result was an almighty blow-up at peak revs down the Lavant Straight - piston-crown first presumably...

"Goo - bugger I - perhaps we overdone it...?"

DCN

Beautiful story!
Tom

[rateus]

iirc 'Horace Gould' was actually born Horace Twigg - any idea why the name change?

Actually, I've had a soft spot for 'orace for a long time, even though he died the same year I was born - probably summed up by his biog in Steve Small's GP Who's Who: 'In a period when fat Italians regularly occupied the cockpits of Formula 1 cars, to Horace Gould it seemed quite reasonable that a fat Bristolian should do the same.' And why not?

[Allan Lupton]

O/T - that's a VERY good impression of a Bristol (or Brissle) accent, Don, as I'm sure Darren and others from around here can confirm! Can you remember 'Orrice adding the letter L to the ends of words that ended with an A? That's another Bristol habit - they take holidays in Americal, Australial and Fuerteventural and will often talk about something being a "good ideal" (good idea) while I heard someone recently talking about her children having "sickness and diarrhoeal"!

Still O/T, a Bristolian colleague told me he was getting some anti-malarial medication before his next trip "out East" as "Malayal is a very malarial areal"

[Pete Stowe]

iirc 'Horace Gould' was actually born Horace Twigg - any idea why the name change?

Having bought "Gould's Garage" in Bristol, he had so many people asking to speak to Mr. Gould, he decided to change his name to Gould.

[Graham Gauld]

Just thought some of the younger readers might want to know what Horace Gould looked like. He is here on the right with Colin Davis on the left at Modena. The guy in the middle is a friend of mine, Sandy Forrest.

[AVO]

One of TNF member owns the little Cooper MG that was in Goodwood in 2008 and 2009 and was previously owned by Mr Gould!

http://users.telenet...rs/CooperMG.htm

There is a picture of him in the car at the bottom of the page.
Any other pictures of his Cooper Bristol?

[Graham Gauld]

One of TNF member owns the little Cooper MG that was in Goodwood in 2008 and 2009 and was previously owned by Mr Gould!

http://users.telenet...rs/CooperMG.htm

There is a picture of him in the car at the bottom of the page.
Any other pictures of his Cooper Bristol?

I looked up the link and note the Cooper-MG was raced by Ian Davidson in 1954. Did it not then pass to Brian Naylor as I remember Briian with the car at the 1955 Tourist Trophy race at Dundrod. Or am I wrong ??

[raceannouncer2003]

I looked up the link and note the Cooper-MG was raced by Ian Davidson in 1954. Did it not then pass to Brian Naylor as I remember Briian with the car at the 1955 Tourist Trophy race at Dundrod. Or am I wrong ??

Naylor apparently raced a Cooper-MG in 1954. Was it the same car?

Vince H.

[David McKinney]

I believe so - KOY 500

Edited by David McKinney, 27 October 2009 - 18:43.

[Graham Gauld]

Naylor apparently raced a Cooper-MG in 1954. Was it the same car?

Vince H.

Quite right Vince. I went on to my TT file and right enough the photo was taken in 1954 and shows Brian surrounded by "friends"

[RobertE]

I can recall the late (and very likeable) Bruce Halford speaking very well of him. I rather had the impression (Doug Nye will know better than I - that almost scans!) that Halford, Gould & Bueb were, for a while, the Three Musketeers. But perhaps Ivor took it a little bit more seriously...

Re. 250Fs - I can't recall precisely, but didn't Gould, Halford and Bira all drive the same car? I can only imagine that Bira had it first, but my library is temporarily lost to me...

[Allan Lupton]

I can recall the late (and very likeable) Bruce Halford speaking very well of him. I rather had the impression (Doug Nye will know better than I - that almost scans!) that Halford, Gould & Bueb were, for a while, the Three Musketeers. But perhaps Ivor took it a little bit more seriously...

Re. 250Fs - I can't recall precisely, but didn't Gould, Halford and Bira all drive the same car? I can only imagine that Bira had it first, but my library is temporarily lost to me...

Jenks tells us that they all owned 2504, Bira had it new and it was sold on to Gould and then Halford. Jenks also tells that Orace had 2514

Edited by Allan Lupton, 27 October 2009 - 21:13.

[David McKinney]

Bira had 2504 from new in 1954, then swapped it with 2509, whilst retaining his own number. This was then raced (but not owned) by Gould in 1955 and owned and raced by Halford from 1956
In other words, the car Gould and Halford raced wasn't the one Bira had had from new

And yes, Gould later campaigned 2514

[Paul Rochdale]

http://www.findagrav...p;GRid=15880101

[Patrick Fletcher]

Just found a very flamboyant Horace Gould autograph on a 1957 Ryal Bush NZ programme.

[Peter Morley]

I looked up the link and note the Cooper-MG was raced by Ian Davidson in 1954. Did it not then pass to Brian Naylor as I remember Briian with the car at the 1955 Tourist Trophy race at Dundrod. Or am I wrong ??

Hi Graham
Yes you are right (you told me this sometime ago and others sources have since confirmed it - I've not updated the website for some time now!) but it was the 1954 Tourist Trophy.
Brian Naylor bought KOY500 from Horace in 1954 when it was rather scruffy, he presumably tidied it up because it appears a bit later with Chiltern Cars in quite good condition and in a different colour scheme.
I think that Ian Davidson owned MOY500 (from DCN's Cooper book), but Iain Wright (previous owner of JOY500) told me he had a report of Ian Davidson running KOY500 in Bo'Ness hillclimb in 1954, and I think there's a photo.
So I'm not sure about the Davidson connection - I've found very little about him.
Peter
p.s. We are hoping to fill the gap in KOY's history when in the 60s it was apparently owned by an MG dealer near Brackley who bought it for the engine and kept the rest of the car for 15-20 years before selling it to Pete Wigglesworth in 1979.
Does anyone have any ideas as to who this MG dealer might have been?

[Graham Gauld]

Bira had 2504 from new in 1954, then swapped it with 2509, whilst retaining his own number. This was then raced (but not owned) by Gould in 1955 and owned and raced by Halford from 1956
In other words, the car Gould and Halford raced wasn't the one Bira had had from new

And yes, Gould later campaigned 2514

David : I know we have talked about this before but the car Bruce Halford owned WAS the Bira car because Bruce went with Bira in his Aston Martin to Modena to see it and then they both drove to Monte Carlo where Bruce telephoned his father and had the money for the car transferred into Bira's London bank account. Also Bira presented Bruce with a beautiful mahogany box with his very special goggles that Bruce kept until he died. Bruce and I spent two or three hours going over his life and I have it all on tape. You are, however, right that Denis Jenkinson made a mistake when saying that the Bira car went to Horace and then to Bruce but the story stuck,

[David McKinney]

I'm not disputing a word you say, Graham

What none of us (probably Gould and Halford included) knew until relatively recently was that the 2504 which passed from Bira to Gould and then Halford wasn't the 2504 Bira had bought new. After Flockhart crashed Bira's 2504 in the 1954 British GP, Bira took over the Owen car (2509), repainted it, renumbered it 2504 and carried on his merry way

BRM repaired the Bira/Flockhart wreck, repainted it, renumbered it 2509 and etc etc

[Allan Lupton]

Flat stones?
pace DSJ

[Graham Gauld]

I'm not disputing a word you say, Graham

What none of us (probably Gould and Halford included) knew until relatively recently was that the 2504 which passed from Bira to Gould and then Halford wasn't the 2504 Bira had bought new. After Flockhart crashed Bira's 2504 in the 1954 British GP, Bira took over the Owen car (2509), repainted it, renumbered it 2504 and carried on his merry way

BRM repaired the Bira/Flockhart wreck, repainted it, renumbered it 2509 and etc etc

That is good to know and why am I not surprised as so much was going on behind the scenes. As I have often said you are never truly told the truth at the time truth emerges later, in this case, much later.

[Barry Boor]

In 1956 Horace's 250.F was red. There are colour pictures on the web which prove this.

 

However, there is a picture of the car in 1957 wherein it looks much darker and has painted upon it a strangely-shaped light nose section.

 

Can anybody confirm what two colours were on the Maserati at that time, please?

[ensign14]

Dunno, but I've just seen the sad news that Martin Gould died in November 2009; just after this thread had started to lie dormant.  I assume it was due to cancer as the family asked for donations to British Cancer Research.

[Barry Boor]

Checking the MotorSport archive I find that in Jenks' notes on the cars in Germany actually tells me that the ACvD insisted on national colours so Horace painted his car a sort of black/green (his words). I'm assuming that the nose was yellow. It certainly looks very light in the photo.

[funformula]

In 1956 Horace's 250.F was red. There are colour pictures on the web which prove this.

 

However, there is a picture of the car in 1957 wherein it looks much darker and has painted upon it a strangely-shaped light nose section.

 

Can anybody confirm what two colours were on the Maserati at that time, please?

 

I found a colour picture of the 1957 German GP starting grid.

You can see the Horace Gould car on the far right of the picture. It could indeed be a veeeery dark green with a white or cream coloured nose.

https://i1.wp.com/fa...ef0111ded_o.jpg

[ensign14]

There's a pic by Phil Hill in Inside Track.  Had it not been for the British colour being green I would have put it down as black; I wonder if Horace had a can of paint from BRM?  Albeit they were not there...

 

The nosecone is white, in a sort of wave design that looks like -v- at the front. 

[Barry Boor]

Thank you to all who have commented.

It seems that it was that very, very dark shade of green which is sometimes called black!

It seems the 'black' livery was only in Germany but for the sake of a bit of variation, I'll make mine 'black' for the season. There were an awful lot of red cars in 1957.

[Rob G]

Meanwhile, Brian Naylor's car appears to have had a lot more red than what one would have expected, judging by what we can see on the far right side of the photo.

[germanty]

My personal picture of Horace Gould in the 1957 German GP if it helps your research.

Edited by germanty, 11 August 2018 - 10:58.

[Michael Ferner]

What a great picture!

[Barry Boor]

Coincidentally, I'm in the middle of the very race at which that picture was taken.

My slot car looks very much like that, except I've got the number in the wrong place. Black on cream rather than white on black.

[bradbury west]

What a good photo, Ken. Hope you are well
Roger Lund

[cooper997]

A magic photo to bring this old thread back to life.

 

Somewhat late to the party, this May 54 (Australian) WHEELS magazine piece may be of interest to some given the early thread discussion relating to the NZ GP..

 

 

The whole results process clearly a very confusing and controversial issue. Officially listed in the 1954 programme as 'THE NZ MOTOR CUP' my programme's original owner wrote '2' next to the #1 Wharton BRM, '3 'next to #5 Gould Cooper Bristol, '1 ' next to #7 Jones Maybach and '4' smack bang between #19 Roycroft Alfa anf #20 Molina MM Holden.

 

Stephen

[opplock]

When I first read about the dispute over 1954 NZ GP I asked my father whether he remembered it. He never went to Ardmore but did lap scoring at Ohakea for a while. He told me with a chuckle that lap scoring was rather hit and miss. Whenever there was an incident lap scorers would turn to have a look and then hastily fit in whoever they thought should have completed a lap in the interim. I suspect Ardmore worked in a similar manner.