401 replies to this topic

[David J Jones]

Holger

The truth will always come out in the end.

I know the truth

Please keep up the good work

[Option1]

Just as an aside, the History Channel (aka the Hitler Channel ) here in the US just now finished running an episode of its "Ultimate Autos" series entitled "The Silver Arrows".

It was all good stuff with some wonderful footage of the Auto Unions and Mercedes of the '30s. However, when it came to the European Championship of 1939 there was NO mention of Müller - none, not a smidgin, not a sausage, not a single bloody word!

The show's treatment of the 1939 European Championship made it out to be a contest between Lang in the Mercedes and Nuvolari in the Auto Union. The show also made a huge deal out of how easily Lang had "won" the 1939 Championship and how hugely received that championship "win" was in Europe, although emphasis was on German reaction.

Among the more prominent historians appearing was Chris Nixon who, apparently, said nothing to gainsay the show's depiction of the 1939 results. I say "apparently" because I'm sure we're all aware of what can be edited out of shows like this.

Nonetheless, this depiction by the show is extremely disappointing, but certainly provides, to my mind, added reason for the work by Hans, David, Holger, Brun and all to be brought to greater light.

Neil

[Wolf]

Doug- me too; I hold Tazio and Moss, who never wont the title, in just as high regard as Fangio who won five (although, if pressed, will concede Maestro's superiority to Golden Boy in a GP car)...

David, I never disputed (how could I) Hans' finds or that the results as they were must be acknowledged. The faults in perception of history must be recognized, but I doubt the wrongs thereof can be righted... One reason I can think of is that this way (stripping Lang of the title and awarding it to Müller) besides giving hint of c'ship being 'gifted' to Müller, that it might also 'indicate' Lang's involvement in Nazi plot...

And I'd hate to steer the discussion of the course, but Churchill was no saint either, he just excercised deamons with the help of the Devil himself (apt Biblical reference here), and turned the blind eye when the revolution ate her children... He sacrificed lives of hundreds of thosands of civillians to his cause (sometimes literally helped them to their early grave), he helped carve Europe with butcher's (another apt reference to Stallin) knife, enslaved whole nations to work in Queens mines in Africa... Not the kind of things I'd like to put on my CV before I went to face my maker...

[David J Jones]

Wolf

I take your point but would respectfully suggest there is only one history and that is the truth. What we know is that Muller WAS the champion and it is a travesty to have tapes and books distorting the facts and repeating what we know are lies. And NAZI lies at that.

I did not make Churchill out to be a saint and - yes - he did manipulate and organise the forces against Hitler but at the end of the day a greater evil was removed. The so called 'peace movement' in the UK may have regarded Stalin as a greater evil but it was their self-interest which was misguiding them.

It is never too late to right a wrong and please do not clutter this thread with nonsense about the illogical results of Championships. What we are seeking is the

recognition that the Nazis manipulated the result (and after war was declared)

the restatement of Muller as the Champion by Free Europe (sorry US but this was not a WC) by overturning the blight the Nazis put on our Sport

[Ralliart]

Three quick thoughts - wasn't Lang offered a ride with Auto Union and turned it down? I could be wrong here as I don't have my Nixon and Monkhouse books within easy access at the moment. Not that that would change any standings/results re:'39. Those SS and Nazi party files would be found, I would think, in the archives in Berlin that were, last I knew, guarded. for want of a better word, by America. Perhaps, after the Wall came down, turned over to Germany, but I doubt it. I lived in Berlin and knew a guy who got a job there 12 years ago. Von Brauchitsch, Caratsch & Lang Nazis? Don't think so.

[David J Jones]

Ralliart

German documentation captured was held in the US but was returned to Germany where I believe it has been placed in the Bundesarchivein Berlin.

The US retained microifilm copies and these are stored in NARA.

I don't believe anyone is ascribing membership of the Nazi Party to any individual - it is important that a wrong (particularly one perpetrated by the Nazi party) is corrected.

It is unfortunate for Lang but that is the way it is

[917]

In 1978 Ronnie Peterson was the fastest driver in Formula 1, but Mario Andretti became World Champion because he had the better contract. When Keke Rosberg became World Champion it was because he had more luck than his colleagues in the Ferrari team. So I agree with Doug that championships are of limited importance.

But sometimes there is a kind of compensating justice in history: Müller became World Champion, not in a car, but I rate this title more important than European Champion!

Regards
Michael

[David J Jones]

917

There comes a time when it is necessary to stand on the barricades and determine right - and this issue is one of those.

The question of who was the Champion is relavent in this case and the other issue is a cop out in this context.

I do not like Nazis or what they stood for - neither am I that keen on Churchill and what he stood for - other than as a wartime leader.

You either support a Nazi decision or you don't and you have to decide where you stand.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Ralliart
Von Brauchitsch, Caratsch & Lang Nazis? Don't think so.

Just to clarify - when I stated that these were "good Nazis" it was in the sense that they were used by the propaganda machine and held up as fine examples of heroic German manhood. As was Rosemeyer. Müller was not used in this way - why?

Politics dictated that von Brauchitsch would be reasonably safe from the Nazis (his uncle was a Field Marshal in the Wehrmacht) and his post-war record would indicate that he was by no means an ardent Nazi himself. Caracciola lived most of the time in Switzerland, where he spent the war years with the W163s - his distate for Hitler is well-documented. Lang was in the Wehrmacht too and seems to have been used as a sort of "working class boy makes good" figure. The question must be asked again about Müller - why was he seen as somehow "unclean"?

[917]

David,

if I understand the "1939 European Championship" thread correctly, there was NO 1939 European Champion, NEITHER Lang NOR Müller. The situation that the scoring modus should be determined after the races "seems us to be absurd in the highest grade" (quote from "Automobil Revue" article, posted by Leif Snellman on 22-Aug-02 in the mentioned thread), to avoid the word "absolutely ridiculous".

I agree with you completely that the Hühnlein declaration is invalid. I am not sure whether it was unjust. I don't know whether the British magazine "The Light Car" was influenced by Oswald Mosley:

Posted by Vitesse2 on 16-Jul-02 23:02:

Quote

...another British magazine...
"The Light Car"

August 18th 1939, page 425
Up to the present Lang has easily and unquestionably been the most successful driver this year in GP racing. He has won the Pau,
Eifel and Belgian Grands Prix - all Formula events - and has, into the bargain, a win to his credit in the remarkable Tripoli race when
Mercedes sent the Italians into a flat spin by producing their 1500cc model. Against this, Muller can lay claim only to a win in the
French GP and a "second" in the German GP.

September 1st 1939, page 485
Hermann Lang, brilliant Mercedes pilot, will, it seems, be European champion for 1939 - which is as it should be.

(All of you know that the 1 September 1939 was the day German troops invaded Poland)

Regards
Michael

[Holger Merten]

As the most of you in this thread know, I was working in the Audi Public Relations dept., responsible for the Audi Tradion PR of Auto Union GmbH. From there I know most of the responsible people of Auto Union GmbH, which is the Special Tradition dept. of Audi. In the last weeks I was in contact with Professor Kirchberg, who answered me some questions, especially about the Typ E, the Typ 650 (the 2 Sokols) and last but not least the 1939 GP. Here it is (thanks to Hans Etzrodt for the translation) :


First my question:
"The ONS has declared Hermann Lang as the 1939 European Champion, although they really had no right to do so. But under the crazy regime and the megalomaniac demands of Hitler and associates, like Hühnlein, anything was possible. Lang was declared European Champion by the ONS (Hühnlein); although the ONS was indeed not authorized to do so. Why now Lang as European Champion and not Müller? Or in other words, why did Auto Union not fight back? The question is of course academic but it should be asked here nevertheless: Who would have had justifiable claim to the title? The new point system for 1939 was not any more ratified in Paris (the meeting was indeed to take place in October 1939). Consequently, Müller would have been European Champion. Müller’s wife Mariele also confirmed that to me. Perhaps you know more?"

And this is Dr. Peter Kirchberg’s answer:
"(...) to the question European Champion Müller. Indeed, Müller would have become
European Champion to the (up to) then valid rules. However, a rule change, which earmarked another point allocation, was impending. But this was not yet valid. Accordingly, Lang would be now European Champion. Due to outbreak of the war, clarification of this question did not take place as did the proclamation of the 1939 European Champions. The in Paris residing international organization was in enemy territory and did not think about, under the given circumstances, to also honor yet a German. Therefore existed also no chance to finish these things later before the war’s end. Therefore, Hühnlein gave order as to who was to become European Champion and as connected Mercedes follower of long standing, his decision turned out accordingly.

Please forgive my brevity but the abundance of tasks does not allow more.
Give me a call, then I will gladly talk with you about this but at this moment
I have no time at all to again search profoundly for material.

Dr. Peter Kirchberg
Auto Union GmbH"


As you could imagine I' ll prepare an interesting telefon conference with Kirchberg. But it's official, he has the same opinion: Müller is the the real European GP Champion. It was Hühnlein who decided Lang as champion. And the interesting question for me is: What was the inofficial opinion of Auto Union.

[Bladrian]

Seems to me Muller was misquoted.

Didn't he actually say “Jetzt bin ich aber schön bescheissen worden,” ?

[Vitesse2]

917: I wouldn't read too much into the Light Car piece. As Doug has pointed out elsewhere (can't remember which thread it was in) the British magazines of the 30s were very big on rumour and prone to repeating each other. I get the impression that all but the keenest enthusiast would only buy one of the three weeklies, as you can trace the progress of a story from one to the others. A story might appear first in Light Car, be picked up the next week by Motor and then the week after by Autocar. A couple of weeks later it would surface in Motor Sport and/or Speed.

Obviously, at this distance, we don't know the original sources, but similarly phrased reports to the one you quoted also appear in Motor and Autocar at about the same time. I suspect it may be from some Mercedes PR handout which found its way to Rodney Walkerley and/or Sammy Davis (but I have no evidence for that) - it dates to the same two-week period as Marc's Les Sports piece and the O Volante article, immediately before the Swiss GP.

Holger: with all due respect, I wonder whether Professor Kirchberg would have volunteered as much information as he has if you had not presented him with the results of the TNF research. If he knew all this already, then why has he not gone public with it in his books? Perhaps you could ask him that ....

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....I wonder whether Professor Kirchberg would have volunteered as much information as he has if you had not presented him with the results of the TNF research. If he knew all this already, then why has he not gone public with it in his books? Perhaps you could ask him that ....

Maybe Holger want's to ask him now this revealing question?;)

[Ray Bell]

One of the outstanding points to come out of this... and yes, I offer my congratulations to all involved for the fantastic revelations they have brought forth... is that Nuvolari gave best to his team mate with a view to helping him win the title...

Shades of the most colourful arguments of 2002!

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell
One of the outstanding points to come out of this... is that Nuvolari gave best to his team mate with a view to helping him win the title...

Actually Ray, I think it was probably more in a spirit of self-preservation and self-interest if you consider the circumstances. After the death of Seaman, Nuvolari was the only non-German driving for Auto Union or Mercedes Benz. Had there been a 1940 season, it is unlikely that any other teams would have put up serious opposition: Talbot and Delahaye were spent forces and Alfa Romeo were already developing the 512 for 1941, having virtually abandoned the three designs they'd already come up with for the 3 litre s/c Formula and concentrated instead on racing the 158s in Voiturette. Maserati? Well, maybe Nuvolari could have tamed the 8CTF - Pietsch worked comparative wonders with it at the Ring in 39 and it turned out to be a good oval racer of course.

But the clincher is the politics. Tazio had effectively defied Mussolini by racing in the French GP after Il Duce had banned Italian teams and drivers from taking part in French events and that ban would have seemed likely to continue into 1940. So, had he joined Maserati or Alfa: no French GP, no Pau.

[Ray Bell]

While I agree with what you say, Richard, my thrust was in regard to the championship...

If the title was unimportant, why would Nuvolari have helped his team mate win it? In other words, the championship was more than just a paper title, it mattered to the drivers and the teams.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell
While I agree with what you say, Richard, my thrust was in regard to the championship...

If the title was unimportant, why would Nuvolari have helped his team mate win it? In other words, the championship was more than just a paper title, it mattered to the drivers and the teams.

Precisely what I said earlier in this thread, prompted by Ensign14:

Quote

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are we in danger of transposing championship mentality to a time when it was not important?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From the quotes above from Müller's widow, Nuvolari's action in letting Müller through to ensure he finished in the best possible position and Lang's rather disingenuous comments to Nixon I think it was important to them! And to Mercedes Benz and Auto Union!

I still think that Lang's memory may have been selective and that he convinced himself that the Championship was his by right, conveniently overlooking the scoring dilemma.

No, Nuvolari wouldn't have necessarily helped Müller, but the Championship was only one of his motives ....

[ensign14]

Or did Nuvolari let Mueller past because the Germans ordered their Italian driver to finish behind a German driver?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Just to clarify - when I stated that these were "good Nazis" it was in the sense that they were used by the propaganda machine and held up as fine examples of heroic German manhood. As was Rosemeyer. Müller was not used in this way - why?

Politics dictated that von Brauchitsch would be reasonably safe from the Nazis (his uncle was a Field Marshal in the Wehrmacht) and his post-war record would indicate that he was by no means an ardent Nazi himself. Caracciola lived most of the time in Switzerland, where he spent the war years with the W163s - his distate for Hitler is well-documented. Lang was in the Wehrmacht too and seems to have been used as a sort of "working class boy makes good" figure. The question must be asked again about Müller - why was he seen as somehow "unclean"?

.....The question must be asked again about Müller - why was he seen as somehow "unclean"?

- Rosemeyer was a phenomenon who emulated the young charismatic German, the Nazi’s liked to showcase. He was held in very high regard for those obvious reasons but also because he had won several Grandes Épreuves, had become popular European Champion in 1936 and was member of the SS.

- Von Brauchitsch had won many races on Mercedes-Benz cars since 1929 and as Vitesse2 pointed out, had the right connection to the Wehrmacht. Manfred was an established regular grand prix driver since 1934.

- Caracciola, had always fought for Germany on Mercedes, except during the 1932-1933 period when Daimler-Benz did not go racing. Caracciola during the thirties was one of the world’s greatest drivers, had won numerous times, was known at that time (at least in Germany ;) ) to have been the 1935, 1937 and 1938 European Champion.

- Lang had been racing Mercedes-Benz cars since 1935 and during 1937 he set his mark by winning two Grands Prix, although no Grandes Épreuves. As of 1938, I consider him the fastest driver and two more wins established him in the NSKK ranking. Leif has good knowledge about that and might be able to explain – in case he hangs around.

- So, that leaves HP Müller (I will re-write his story later here), a motorcycle racer since the twenties, who was asked to drive Auto Union Grand Prix cars in 1937 as cadet driver. Seven races in 1937, best placing was third at Coppa Acerbo and ditto at the Masaryk Grand Prix with Rosemeyer’s help. In 1938 only six races; his best were two fourth spots during Auto Union’s worst year. Then came 1939 and HP won the French Grand Prix, only his second victory in a racing car after Kahlenberg. Now compare Müller's record with that of the other four –already established– big names. HP was an upcoming driver; not so?

HP was very much the junior in achievements compared to the other candidates. So, I don't think it is necessary to bring up hypothetical connections with Nazi secret files and other speculations, which have no room here. Lastly, if HP would not have been seen fit by the NSKK as a good Aryan, he would have been ousted long before . He was definitely the junior driver, the chicken in the coup and they put him in his place. How disrespectful of him to challenge Lang for the Championship.;)

[MichaelJP]

A fascinating bit of research, but surely the key points are:

- The overall European championship wasn't that important back then, certainly not compared to winning important individual races.

- OK, Huhnlein manipulated the system and declared Lang the Champion, but surely we can think of that as being as valid as any other "pronouncement" of the Nazi regime i.e. not valid at all.

- So by the agreed rules HP Muller was the European champion, not Lang. Interesting, yes, but not really worth starting a campaign for recognition!

In my opinion a satisfying conclusion would be if the next edition of books like Chris Nixon's Silver Arrows acknowledged the situation - surely that would be enough?

- MichaelJP

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by MichaelJP
In my opinion a satisfying conclusion would be if the next edition of books like Chris Nixon's Silver Arrows acknowledged the situation - surely that would be enough?

Why would that be enough?

There is a high level of injustice here. A man went through the bulk of his life and then to his grave knowing he had been denied his rightful place in the sport to which he obviously gave so much.

An addendum in a book will only lead to more questions, not answer them.

[Holger Merten]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell


(...) A man went through the bulk of his life and then to his grave knowing he had been denied his rightful place in the sport to which he obviously gave so much.

Yes, and fact is. If HP Müller had been the official European Champion 1939, he would be champion of all classes/categories (cars, motobikes/cross and world championships in his whole career). And it's a difference if you are champion in all classes, or champion in all classes, without Gran Prixs, or champion in all classes without GP, because Korpsfüherer Hühnlein decided Lang as champion.

[Ray Bell]

Interesting you should say that, Holger, when we already have had this parallel suggested earlier in this thread:

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The nearest parallel I can think of would be the RAC declaring Graham Hill 1964 World Champion because he'd scored more points than John Surtees....

Why a parallel?

Because Surtees is the one who can stand up and be counted as champion of the world on two wheels and four... and of course Muller should have been the one he emulated rather than an unknown of pre-war times...

[Holger Merten]

Ray Bell, I thought everything was said in this thread, also abbout the speculations. But sometimes it's better to tell the story twice. Cause not everybody is listening.

Not a good translation, but may you understand:

Where injustice becomes rightfully, resistance becomes obligation

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by ensign14
Or did Nuvolari let Mueller past because the Germans ordered their Italian driver to finish behind a German driver?

"... so, Herr Nuvolari, if you wish to continue to drive for Auto Union in 1940, I am sure you realise that it would be in your interest to ensure that Müller finishes ahead of you in the best position he can. Dr Feuereissen will be doing his best to persuade Korpsführer Hühnlein that the old scoring system should continue, but you for your part must also co-operate ...."

[MichaelJP]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Why would that be enough?

There is a high level of injustice here. A man went through the bulk of his life and then to his grave knowing he had been denied his rightful place in the sport to which he obviously gave so much.

An addendum in a book will only lead to more questions, not answer them.

I see a similarity here to governments issuing apologies to the ancestors of a wronged group; I can't really see the point of it - the modern day government didn't commit the crime and the descendants didn't suffer it.

So the FIA issuing a statement correcting the facts about 1939 won't help Muller.

Maybe rather than as addendum to a book, a whole new book about the 1939 season would be a good idea?

- MichaelJP

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by MichaelJP


I see a similarity here to governments issuing apologies to the ancestors of a wronged group; I can't really see the point of it - the modern day government didn't commit the crime and the descendants didn't suffer it.

I agree that is pointless - "politically correct" rewriting of history is indefensible IMHO. History should be about facts, not opinions or attitudes which can change from generation to generation.

Quote

Originally posted by MichaelJP
So the FIA issuing a statement correcting the facts about 1939 won't help Muller.

The FIA seems to have very little idea of its own history - its website is full of errors! All that is necessary is for the FIA, as the direct descendant of the AIACR, to acknowledge that this controversy exists and to bring it out into the open. The impression is that it has been swept under the carpet in the hope that no-one will find it ...

Quote

Originally posted by MichaelJP
Maybe rather than as addendum to a book, a whole new book about the 1939 season would be a good idea?

- MichaelJP

When everything is revealed, yes maybe ....

[David J Jones]

Michael JP / Vittesse

I agree that we should only be interested in History that is based on fact. In this case however the facts were, and have been, terribly distorted by -

Huhnlein
Mercedes-Benz
The M-B driving team
Neubaur
Chris Nixon
etc

who all ignored Muller in their mentions of 1939.

For the reasons given before I can quite understand why Muller and A-U were reticent to contest the decision at the time. If you say you would have done then you are braver than I.
I do not see it as being politically correct at all to suggest Muller should be officially declared the 1939 European Champion. It is his and his family's right and one denied to him in his lifetime - remember we KNOW the scoring system was not rescinded and that a new scheme was NOT ratified in its place.
I do not believe A-U expected a change in scoring to happen hence the instruction to Nuvolari to let Muller into fourth (which was the minimum he needed to clinch the title).

Remember history is not the lies or the myths we have been told IT IS THE FACTS (ie the truth)

Hans

I note what you say about speculation but before closing investigations we should ask two further questions -

What are we not seeing?

What questions have not been asked? (and therefore not answered)

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by David J Jones
I do not believe A-U expected a change in scoring to happen hence the instruction to Nuvolari to let Muller into fourth (which was the minimum he needed to clinch the title).

David - as I demonstrated a while back, Nuvolari letting Müller through was in connection with the new, unadopted scoring system. He had to finish as high as possible and hope that the Mercedes hit trouble. Once he had completed 8 laps of the final of the Swiss GP he was assured of the title under the "old" scoring system.

[Wolf]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I agree that is pointless - "politically correct" rewriting of history is indefensible IMHO. History should be about facts, not opinions or attitudes which can change from generation to generation.

I do not see it this way. Those 'official appologies' are to serve the puropse of truth (in this case acknowledging that Lang's title was not official, and most likely unjust), whereas I disapprove of damage claims, which would IMHO be in this case officially giving '39 title to Müller (from what I gather scoring system for '39 wasn't confirmed by AIACR*). PC has nothing to do with recognizing that, say, Europeans took away Indian's land by force (or many more matters that are, even today, conviniently ignored), but restitution is IMO just another PC matter.

But how would it be if FIA, as successor of AIACR, officialy confirmed the existing system (which would automatically hand the title to Müller), or claimed that '39 title was not awarded (acknowledging the fact that had it been awarded, Müller would have been the champion) and recognize the fact that Lang's title was not only unofficial/illegal but unjust?

Hans, I will not press the matter any further (and appologise if You think I was out of line there), but will add that I think You underestimate the deviousness of totalitarian regimes (and David too, when he nonchalantly claimed "... regarded Stalin as a greater evil but it was their self-interest which was misguiding them"**).

* I do not know much about this practice, but I guess in this case it would be best said that Müller would have been champion had the existing scoring system been confirmed in October

** I will not argue the ulterior motives of 'peace movement', but simply that on death-toll alone both abominations should have been wiped off from face of the Earth (instead of giving some legality and justifiability to communists)

[Vitesse2]

Wolf: I think the official apologies that David is referring to are the ridiculous PC ones like Britain apologizing to Ireland for the 1847 Potato Famine - they happened and can't be changed. All that changes is the interpretation.

In this case the facts are:

1 The AIACR did not declare a 1939 European Champion.
2 Under the pre-1939 scoring system the champion would be Müller.
3 Under the proposed scoring system (never adopted but presented in draft to the CSI) the champion would be Lang.
4 Lang was declared champion by Hühnlein, on behalf of the ONS/NSKK.

The best solution would perhaps be for the FIA, as successor to the AIACR, to formally declare the 1939 European Championship null and void, while still acknowledging the claims of both sides: Lang and Müller could then both be declared de jure champions.

[David McKinney]

Thanks Richard
I've just waded through the last day's posts on this subject and whilst doing so formulated a summary in my mind, which is almost identical to yours
The fact of the matter is there was no official 1939 European Champion

[Roger Clark]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2


"... so, Herr Nuvolari, if you wish to continue to drive for Auto Union in 1940, I am sure you realise that it would be in your interest to ensure that Müller finishes ahead of you in the best position he can. Dr Feuereissen will be doing his best to persuade Korpsführer Hühnlein that the old scoring system should continue, but you for your part must also co-operate ...."

I think that Auto Union needed Nuvolari more than he needed them.

[Holger Merten]

As I posted two month ago. I sent a letter with that case to DaimlerCrysler Classic, and back from office, I found the response of DaimlerChrysler Classic today at home on the desk.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by David McKinney
......there was no official 1939 European Champion

David, I thought we knew that all the time. The champion was always declared by the AIACR and it did not happen in 1939. Concequently there was no Champion that year, but HP Müller would have been to the rules in place.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Holger Merten
...... I found the response of DaimlerChrysler Classic today at home on the desk.

If somebody is very curious here, it is I.

[Holger Merten]

Because I know that Hans, I'm sitting here with my dictonary and translate it. Please send me your faxnumber by mail. I'll sent you a copy before you go to bed this evening (thats right with the time?).
So wait a moment it's handwritten, now I'm going on....

[Holger Merten]

As I wrote, today I got the official answer of DaimlerChrysler Classic. The letter is signed by Dr. (Harry) Niemann, he is the Head of the archive and (Stefan) Peschel. Here is my not so good English translation.

“your reference: 16/09/02
our reference: COM/CL, pe-sm Peschel
date: 10/10/02

Dear Mr Merten,

thank you for your question about the European Championship title 1939 for Hermann Lang

As you wrote, it’s true, Korpsführer Hühnlein (Head of the NSKK and ONS)) nominated Hermann Lang as Champion, because the AIACR couldn’t have their normal session in October 1939 in Paris, because of the begin of WW2. Hermann Lang participated in that year in ten big races and was with seven wins undisputed the best driver of the year, although in consideration of the results for the four Grand Prix races (DCC uses here the wording Grand épreuves, not Grand Prix ((HM)) ) the Auto Union driver Müller would be ((underlined by HM)) better in two points than Lang. Because the AIACR couldn’t nominate the Champion, Hühnlein decided to add on all results of the season.

In the contemporary press in our archive we couldn’t find any word against it, also not in the international press no word about that procedure. (They sent me some copies, international press means one issue of the Swiss “Automobilrevue 1939/No. 22- what else after the beginning of the war? (HM)) ). We also don’t know about any protests by Auto Union from that time about the Championship. We sent you a copy of the “Doerschlag Dienst” (This was thegerman internal press propaganda support by Goebbels, so the journalists knew what the regime liked to write about (HM)) ), her you could find the notice about the title of Lang, but also some press comments from foreign newspapers aboit the title for Fleischmann as European Champion in the 350cmm class of motorbiking. (Fleischmann drove for Auto Union, whatever that means in that letter (HM)) ) Although this “Doerschlag Dienst” is filled with nazi propaganda, we believe, we could sent it to you as a certificate of the time.

(...)) We hope, we have cleared the situation and the questions for you.

Signatures”


I couldn't let it stand here without a word. This is the official answer of DCC from 2002. So I could understand their answer, and it's a fact without so much room for speculations, cause this is just one opion of somebody, who was involved 63 years ago. I respect their answer, and I'm glad, that they answered, some more pieces in the puzzle.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Holger Merten
........I couldn't let it stand here without a word. This is the official answer of DCC from 2002. So I could understand their answer, and it's a fact without so much room for speculations, cause this is just one opion of somebody, who was involved 63 years ago. I respect their answer, and I'm glad, that they answered, some more pieces in the puzzle.

Holger, their response contains nothing new, just confirming what we have arrived at after our search. Does DCC know anything about the point scoring system and which races Hühnlein included in his championship?

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Holger Mertens
As you wrote, it’s true, Korpsführer Hühnlein (Head of the NSKK and ONS)) nominated Hermann Lang as Champion, because the AIACR couldn’t have their normal session in October 1939 in Paris, because of the begin of WW2. Hermann Lang participated in that year in ten big races and was with seven wins undisputed the best driver of the year, although in consideration of the results for the four Grand Prix races (DCC uses here the wording Grand épreuves, not Grand Prix ((HM)) ) the Auto Union driver Müller would be ((underlined by HM)) better in two points than Lang. Because the AIACR couldn’t nominate the Champion, Hühnlein decided to add on all results of the season.

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Originally posted by Marcel Schot, August 15th 2000
When we start from the idea Lang was awarded the title with 23 points, somewhere along the way 9 must have been added to his existing 14. When looking at Leif's page, there's 4 more races in which Lang took part and where indeed any of the top Germans took part. Seems unlikely the Nazi's would include any race where no Germans were present. These 4 races are Pau (1st), Tripoli (1st) Eiffelrennen (1st) and Beograd (retired either before 25% or before 50%). If I understood the pointscalculation correctly, this would total to 1+1+1+(either 6 or 7). Surprise, 1+1+1+6 equals 9!

If this would have been the case, this is how the top 10 of the championship according to Nazi standards would look like :

Lang 		Mercedes-Benz 		1	5	7	1	14	1	1	1	6	23

Müller 		Auto Union 		5	1	2	4	12	8	8	4	3	35

von Brauchitsch Mercedes-Benz 		3	6	7	3	19	2	8	4	2	35

Nuvolari 	Auto Union 		4	7	4	4	19	8	8	2	1	38

Caracciola 	Mercedes-Benz 		7	7	1	2	17	6	2	8	8	41

Hasse 		Auto Union 		2	8	5	5	20	8	8	4	8	48

Étancelin 	Alfa Romeo 		8	4	8	8	28	3	8	4	8	51

Sommer 		Alfa Romeo 		4	4	7	8	23	4	8	8	8	51

Dreyfus 	Delahaye/Maserati 	8	4	4	4	20	8	8	8	8	52

Mazaud 		Delahaye 		4	8	4	8	24	4	8	8	8	52

Ooops, I'd better explain that table

Copy/paste from Leif's site, so it's Belgium, ACF, Germany, Switzerland, then totals. Followed by Pau, Tripoli, Eiffelrennen, Beograd and the grand total[p][Edited by Marcel Schot on 08-15-2000]

[Racer.Demon]

Exactly my idea when I read that!

A visit to Berlin and a further one to Chemnitz might give us more insight into this line of thinking, which we buried a long, long time ago.

[pedro]

I agree wholeheartedly with what everyone has already said - this is a brilliant piece of research, and Hans deserves every accolade; perhaps even something more tangible than a 'Don Capps Gold Star'.

BUT, I detect a change in tone in this thread from that in the original '1939 championship' thread. In that, the emphasis was on the research and in finding the truth. This one seems to be more of an anti-nazi witch-hunt, with the emphasis on 'setting the record straight', and of retrospectively declaring Muller the rightful 1939 champion. Have I missed something, or is there actually any evidence for that?

The truth is, as your research has shown, and as was concluded fairly early in the original thread, the AIACR never did sit down for the September meeting, so never did determine a 1939 champion. So where does this quantum leap of saying that Muller WAS the rightful champion come from?

The chief protagonist of this view seems to be David Jones, though Hans too now seems to agree with him:

"I would also like to see the present FIA to officially condemn the 1939 ONS/NSKK European Champion on grounds that a national Association had no right to determine an international matter. By doing so, they would declare HP as the rightful 1939 European Champion on grounds that the rules had not changed."

So, the arguments of the 'Muller for champion' faction seem to be:

i) Lang as champion was a nazi decision. Nazis are evil. Therefore all nazi decisions are wrong. Therefore, Lang cannot be champion. Therefore, Muller must be. (Sorry to be so trite, but this seems to be David's argument in a nutshell).

ii) The 1938 points system, which would have made Muller champion, was never formally rescinded.

Point i) is such abject nonsense that it warrants no serious decision. Even abhorrent monsters must make the occasional sensible decision. Just because most things (ok, just about everything) the nazis did was evil, doesn't mean they are any worse at deciding on a championship points system than anyone else. The one piece of evidence you have (so far) failed to come up with is anything to indicate why the nazis might have unfairly discriminated against Muller and in favour of Lang. David believes that this evidence will one day materialise, but so far there is just speculation, all of which is dependent on the belief that there WAS some unfair discrimination. Hasn't it occurred to anyone that, just possibly, the evil nazi Hühnlein might have taken a moment off from his evilness and simply made a decision by looking at the season's results (either as a whole or just the grands epreuves) and concluding, as Doug has done, as I would do, or as just about anyone would do, that Lang was the better driver? (*)

Point ii) is nonsense too. We know (David's own research showed this) that in July 1939, the AIACR had not come to a decision on which points system to apply to 1939. They were planning to make this decision at the September meeting. Do you think its conceivable that someone could have stood up at the September meeting and said, 'er, excuse me, but we never actually rescinded the 1938 points system, so Muller has been champion for several weeks now and it's too late to do anything about it'? No. For the AIACR to believe they had the right to decide on a points system in September, they must indeed have had that right. So, the fact that the 1938 system had not been formally rescinded is irrelevant - this points system WAS NOT in place during 1939, at least as far as the AIACR were concerned.

Don't you 'Muller for champion' people see that, by lobbying for a decision based on a system which the AIACR themselves had not agreed on, is exactly the same as what the ONS did! The only difference is that the ONS are nazis and you are not, so all your decisions are correct and all theirs are wrong! (Oh, that, and also that they think that the best driver should be champion, and you don't.)



One final thing in this thread I would take issue with. Hans has stated many times that the idea of determining the 1939 champion after the races had taken place was an "unprecedented, unbelievable situation", or a "ridiculous, if not to say scandalous, situation". Unprecedented, yes, but 'unprecedented' simply means that it hadn't happened before. But not ridiculous or unbelievable. It simply hadn't happened in GP before. Which, given that the history of GP in 1939 wasn't very long, and the history of the European Championship even shorter, is not very surprising. There are many sports in which deciding a winner by committee after the event is the norm. It isn't even unknown in motor racing. Look at the 1894 Paris-Rouen; the fastest car wasn't declared the winner - the winner was declared, after the event, by a committee who took into account not just speed, but also practicability. And indeed, it is not impossible that even today, the F1 world champion could be declared by committee after the season is over; look at the rule book: if two or more drivers are tied on points, and cannot be separated by the usual tie-break rule (no. of wins etc.), then the FIA shall declare a champion based on whatever criteria it feels fit. Unprecedented, yes, but it could happen, even in 2003.

"ridiculous, if not to say scandalous"? No more ridiculous than the incredibly odd 'minus' system that existed prior to 1939. In fact, many might argue that a committee decision after the event would produce far more sensible results than any points system. Surely no committee deciding on the 1958 championship would have come up with Mike Hawthorn! Indeed, it is one of the great 'might have beens' of GP racing - if the AIACR actually HAD met in September 1939, maybe they might have concluded that this was a far more rational and civilised method of determining a champion than by awarding points.

In conclusion then, well done Hans and all for the research. But lets stick to the research and not start campaigning for 'justice'. For, if this matter is taken up by the FIA, surely the only thing they could possibly do would be to belatedly hold the 63-years-postponed September meeting – and what would they conclude at that meeting? Exactly what the AIACR would have most likely concluded had the meeting taken place at the time – that the 'minus' system led to an absurd result, and the proposed 'plus' system led to the best driver being champion. No contest. End of meeting. Lang would be officially the European champion. In other words, the FIA would have no rational alternative other than to ratify a nazi decision! (Surely the very opposite of how David would like to see this affair resolved).

The history is now known: Nobody was AIACR champion; Lang was ONS champion; any history books which refer to Lang merely as 'European champion', with no further qualification, are guilty of laziness, just as those who write of Schumacher as 'World champion' rather than 'FIA World champion' are guilty of laziness. It's not that big a deal.





(*) I'm not suggesting that the ONS decision wasn't politically motivated. It probably was. The nazis have just spent tons of money on ensuring a German champion for 1939, then the AIACR go and spoil it all by cancelling a meeting just because there happens to be a war on. Damned unsporting of them! Especially as, whatever the outcome of the meeting, it would have announced to the world that a German driver and a German car was the best in Europe. So, hardly surprising then that the ONS should take it upon themselves to tell us who the champion was, if the AIACR weren't going to.

[Wolf]

Pedro- I do not think anybody can be ONS/NSKK European Champion, and therein lies fault of Your argument. Would any title in line of Wolf World Champion (Rubens Barrichelo, as most amusing side-kick of the season) be seen as title, seeing I did not organize, nor participate in organization of events, neither have iurisdiction over World Championship of any sort? So, the analogy You bring up is not applicable- while the latter (Schumacher) is merely a laziness, but it is not incorrect (merely a class/organization is missing) as the Lang case, where most people recognize Lang as European Champion which he was not (he may have been ONS/NSKK champion, but not European Champion which decision was in iurisdiction of AIACR)...

[Vitesse2]

An excellent analysis Pedro. As one who has been involved in the search I have to say that your feelings on this matter pretty much mirror my own. I have no particular bias in favour of either Lang or Müller, although I was prompted into joining in in this by a desire to know whether Sheldon was right or wrong in his assertion, which I'd first come across in Peter Higham's book back in 1995. The more I've learned about this, the more difficult it has become to perceive the truth through the fog of misinformation, disinformation and propaganda.

As I posted above, it is now my belief that the FIA should, in view of the complete uncertainty of the situation (oh, how I wish we could find a report on the July 1939 CSI meeting!) declare the 1939 European Championship null and void on the grounds that it was impossible to choose a champion as the committee tasked with that had failed (twice) to meet; once before the ONS announcement and again after it. They would then be free to declare both drivers as joint champions by acclamation.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Roger Clark


I think that Auto Union needed Nuvolari more than he needed them.

Certainly Brun found some evidence of that in Chemnitz, with indications that Nuvolari was still under contract in 1940. However, I don't see that Tazio had any possibility of a competitive drive anywhere else unless he had stepped down to Voiturettes for 1940, so I think they needed each other equally.

[Roger Clark]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Certainly Brun found some evidence of that in Chemnitz, with indications that Nuvolari was still under contract in 1940. However, I don't see that Tazio had any possibility of a competitive drive anywhere else unless he had stepped down to Voiturettes for 1940, so I think they needed each other equally.

It depends, of course, on what the Grand Prix formula would have been for 1940. Regardless of that, and everything that has been written above, I think Nuvolari was the only natural winner in the Auto Union team and the only driver around capable of beating Lang in a straight fight. But he was always at his best when cast as the underdog...

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by pedro
.....Hans deserves every accolade; perhaps even something more tangible than a 'Don Capps Gold Star'.......

Pedro – thank you for your suggested Gold Star with Diamonds. I accept and shall pass it on to HP Müller's wife, Mariele.

As M.S. always says, “In all honesty,” I am happy that this thread has stirred several minds because it does so for me. I very much agree with practically all you have stated, especially with the repeated anti Nazi statements, which actually are unnecessary and distracting. Not that I am proud or ashamed of my past -I was born and raised in Nazi Germany- so, I could not care one way or another, it was just part of my life. The reason for me voicing my surprise that the British, English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish - all known to be staunch anti Nazis - accept and write about Lang as 1939 European Champion, I do find that fact truly a bit astonishing, still to this day. Or do we have a double standard here. I mean, this was a Nazi decree! That is why I spured on the staunch British minds to influence their large motor racing publishing empire, using their anti Nazi feelings. So, you can call me a kind of an instigator in this case. Yes, I have mentioned ONS and NSKK in the story, since they were part of it as national institutions in Nazi-Germany. So much about the Nazi subject.

I hope I have always made my point clear that the decision to nominate the European Champion was made through the AIACR in each preceding year (1935-1938). The AIACR was an international association and the ONS or NSKK were German national bodies. Because of their lower status they had no right to determine the 'INTERNATIONAL' European Champion. Not because they were German and not because they were Nazis or atheists or what not.

Finally, as I wrote some posts back: "I would also like to see the present FIA to officially condemn the 1939 ONS/NSKK European Champion on grounds that a national Association had no right to determine an international matter. By doing so, they would declare HP as the rightful 1939 European Champion on grounds that the rules had not changed. All this is called wishful thinking."

And that is what was meant: wishful thinking, not more.

[Wolf]

Yes, Hans, but what pedro said (and I think I did too) was that because scoring system was not confirmed for '39, in order for him to become champion, FIA (as sort of AIACR successor*) would need to belatedly hold the meeting that was not held and declare the system of '38 for '39 as well. Without FIA doing so, there is a little choice but to declare there was no European Champion for '39. And, of course that Lang was not a champion.

Maybe, if it is decided that two wrongs make a right, and seeing that Lang enjoyed his unrightful title for sixty odd years, that for equal amount of time HP Müller is to be treated as Champion. After that, the title is to be declared non-existent... That's political correctness gone mad.

[David J Jones]

Hans et al

It seems I must be a little contrite - having let my anti nazi feelings get the better of me - but I must add I am unrepentant, in the best John Wayne tradition !!, and worried.

It seems there is little support in the UK for my view on this matter which has surprised me. Although it was probably wishful thinking as expressed to expect that HPM would get his reward. It seems this poor little Welshman is on his own with his feelings about what happened here. My personal viewpoint is no good came from Nazi Germany (excepting Hans)
I cannot bring myself to accept even one of their decrees (as I have probably over demonstrated here) and certainly I give no quarter to them at all.

That does not mean, however, I am saying no good came out of Germany. What happened here is a typical example of the arrogance of the ideology and it should be demonstrated that today we do not tolerate it. However the current FIA setup certainly would not do it as it would very likely upset Mom.

Having somewhat vented my spleen I am off to the US Embassy to obtain a visa (where at least I can express the anti-Nazi part of my consience without critisiscm)