135 replies to this topic

[sterling49]

Like the formula cars of the time, they were minute compared to any of the leviathans that are raced today Looking at the car at Goodwood last year,it amazed me just how small it was, and I saw it in 1968 and thought nothing of it's size really. The Lotus 49 is also really small.

[Pedro 917]

Here are some pictures of Piper's P68 at Goodwood 2003 and 2007 :
































Copyright Luc Ghys

[Pedro 917]

And Piper's P68 at the Nürburgring Oldtimer GP 2003 :






















Copyright Luc Ghys

[Pedro 917]

....and Piper's P68 at the Spa Classic Endurance race in 2004 :


























Copyright Luc Ghys

[Pedro 917]

The P68 of d'Ansembourg, Spa 2004 :






























Copyright Luc Ghys

[Pedro 917]

The stripped P68 of d'Ansembourg as seen at the former premises of the Garage Francorchamps in Brussels, July 2006 :






















Copyright Luc Ghys

That's all Folks !!

[Tim Murray]

Quote

Originally posted by Pedro 917



Copyright Luc Ghys

What glorious, glorious eye-candy!

Thanks, Luc, for all your beautiful photos.

[David McKinney]

Why post half a dozen photos when 66 will do?

[Red Socks]

The discs inboard of the front uprights on the d'Ansembourg car are the correct specification-Pipers car has discs outside the upright.

[Wouter Melissen]

So the d'Ansembourg car is an original that never crashed and the ex-Piper car is a reconstruction of the Irwin car but not a full replica? The car was reconstructed by Ford / Alan Mann ? Do these cars have chassis numbers?

[Pedro 917]

Yes Wouter, that's right. However, I don't know whether the car was rebuilt by Piper works or Alan Mann.
Piper told me his car was the rebuilt Irwin-Rodriguez car.
Here's a rare picture from an unknown French magazine showing Chris Irwin just before his last ride in a racing car, talking to Pedro.
Does anyone know who owns the copyright of this picture? I really would like to buy it.

[David M. Kane]

Great shots Luc! What an intersting monocoque.

[Wouter Melissen]

I also noticed that the 'original' car has full gullwing doors while, the Piper car has hinges on the windscreen. Was that an original difference between the two cars?

[RTH]

That car is a work of art .

[Pedro 917]

No, that was a Piper adjustment. He said it was much easier to handle the doors.

[race4aliving]

Thank you Luc. as usual great pictures.

[David M. Kane]

Is it me or does not that tub not look terribly rigid? Could that have played a roll in the aero issue? This is strictly a wild visual guess.

[race4aliving]

Quote

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Is it me or does not that tub not look terribly rigid? Could that have played a roll in the aero issue? This is strictly a wild visual guess.

I was thinking the very same thing David.

[Tweddell]

so there is something real confusing:
if the surviving car is that one from Ansembourg, why does it have the wrong colour sheme, as it has definitifly the appearence of the Irwin car, while the Piper car has the white nose of the surviver P68.
if you have a look at the pictures, added as link , you´ll see, that the Irwin car is far away from beeing able of restoration, it must have been a complete new car, except the chassis plate perhaps.

http://20832.com/ima...519_h/B5051.jpg
http://20832.com/ima...519_h/B5052.jpg
http://20832.com/ima...519_h/B5054.jpg

[Pedro 917]

The P68 of d'Ansembourg is the car with the white nose.

[Giraffe]

I'm a bit lost here! In the beginning, there were two P68's and subsequently a P69.
John Surtees say's that the Irwin car is scrapped, so that leaves one of each. Then David Piper builds a recreation, that somewhere back in the thread is thought to have used parts of the scrapped Irwin car, so we are back to three.
Tom Wheatcroft then purportedly took delivery of two P68's; but if so, the Irwin car cannot have been scrapped, so we now have four, being the two original P68's the Piper recreation, and the P69.
Unless of course the two cars delivered to Wheatcroft were infact the remaining original P68, and the P69?
So we have the d'Ansembourg car that we think is original, and the Piper recreation' but what else is actually out there, and what of the P69???
Answers on a postcard please to the Giraffe home for the Terminally Bewildered....!

[Giraffe]

....& which one did I see at the Skopos Museum in Batley, West Yorkshire???

[Wouter Melissen]

Quote

Originally posted by Giraffe
I'm a bit lost here! In the beginning, there were two P68's and subsequently a P69.
John Surtees say's that the Irwin car is scrapped, so that leaves one of each. Then David Piper builds a recreation, that somewhere back in the thread is thought to have used parts of the scrapped Irwin car, so we are back to three.
Tom Wheatcroft then purportedly took delivery of two P68's; but if so, the Irwin car cannot have been scrapped, so we now have four, being the two original P68's the Piper recreation, and the P69.
Unless of course the two cars delivered to Wheatcroft were infact the remaining original P68, and the P69?
So we have the d'Ansembourg car that we think is original, and the Piper recreation' but what else is actually out there, and what of the P69???
Answers on a postcard please to the Giraffe home for the Terminally Bewildered....!

Maybe the P69 was based off the Irwin P68 and later returned to P68 spec and then left to rot together with the other original car until Wheatcroft bought/received them. In the pictures the car looks damaged pretty badly, but at least the tub looks salvageable.

From the information in this thread I believe that Piper only built a replica after he received one of the Wheatcroft cars. This would make sense, as however ingenious he may be, I doubt he can built cars from scratch. Or maybe he did not build a replica at all and just modified his existing P68 with a new tail, doors and exhausts.

It is confusing for sure.

[BRM MICK2]

Hi
Quote from Classic Car Magazine May 1990 in a excellent article on the P68's and P69

Three P68's were built , Number One was destroyed in the Irwin accident. Two P68's sold/went originally to Wheatcroft. Number Two car to New Zealand sold and then restored in Australia by a Ian Cummins. Piper bought Number 3 the original spare car. This was restored by Mclaren mechanic Kerry Adams I presume Piper modified the bodywork to its current condition?
The P69 was scrapped by Alan Mann reason = no money to pay for further development + Alan Mann fell out with Ford in 1968 . John Wyer was running GT40's in 1968/9 under the Gulf banner, he toyed with idea of using the P68's but it never happened.

Mick

[bradbury west]

If it is a quote I cannot find it in my copy.
"... and the P68s languished in the Donington Collecton for some years. Tom Wheatcroft swappped the third built car with NZ collector Gavin Bain for the remains of the Bi Motore, and Bain sold it on to Sydney car enthusiast Ian Cummins who rrestored it beautifully.
The second-built P68 was added to David Piper's extensive stable and restored by ex McLaren f1 mechanic Kerry Adams in his High Wycombe workshops....... today usually driven by Richard Attwood"
Roger Lund

[David McKinney]

Perhaps the second-built car was No.3 and the third-built No.2?

[BRM MICK2]

Same magazine

Car 2 1 1/2 " longer wheelbase as Gardner complained about lack of space in Car No1

Germany 1968

Car No 1 destroyed in Irwin accident

Car No2 survives

1969
P69 fails to qualify at BOAC 500 never used again

Two P68's race including it says a newly built P68 I presume this was the intended spare car from 1968 and only just completed/ never used before.

Wheatcroft

No3 to Australia

No2 to Piper therfore the Piper car is the original 1968 car

Mick

[Pedro 917]

Classic and Sportscar (February 1996) reports : Back in England (after Irwin's crash), Alan Mann supervised the breaking up and scrapping of the damaged car, which the team considered jinxed (Jim Clark was to have driven it on its race debut but was obliged to an F2 race at Hockenheim...).
The article reports a test by John Surtees of the F3L owned then by Richard Thwaites (now property of d'Ansembourg) and the car's only identity is chassis 1000, Dymo taped on the dashboard.
They write that only two of the three F3Ls built survive, owned by David Piper and Richard Thwaites. So if Piper told me that his car was built with the remains of the Irwin car and that the other is the test car, then where's this third chassis?

[Dennis Hockenbury]

My thanks to all for the gorgeous photos. While the P68 may have been a disaster, what a beautiful failure it was/is.

After seeing the bare metal photos, I agree with David's comments as the structural integrity looks more than a bit suspect. Until viewing the car in metal, I never considered that it was completely made of aluminum. No glass fiber anywhere.

[David M. Kane]

Dennis it's a pretty artistic effort, the lines, the flow, etc. Another sad example, perhaps, the inherent sadness brought on by underfunding. Having said that I WANT THAT CAR!

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Now David, a fragile car is definitely not what you require! Yeah, the P68 would be incredible to own....

[Stephen W]

Just think what could be achieved today. I would be a costly process but a carbon fibre tub would resolve many issues. It is still a drop dead gorgeous car and like a lot of contributors I would love to have one - not necessarily to drive competitively but to take out from time to time and have some fun!

The trouble is I don't have that sort of budget! :

[B Squared]

I think that this is a beautiful looking car. I was leafing through some old Competition Press & Autoweek magazines and thought that this would be of interest. David Phipps is the photographer. I thinks it's quite "cool" to see the cars in their natural state. Frank Gardner is quoted to be the driver in these shots.

Brian

[Giraffe]

An F3L appeared at the Silverstone Classic recently driven by John Young; which one is it???



By giraffe138

By giraffe138

By giraffe138

It would appear to be the Piper car, so has he moved it on? And if so, what of the others these days? I never did discover which car sat at the Skopos Museum in Batley, West Yorkshire for some time a few years ago......

Edited by Giraffe, 06 August 2009 - 14:22.

[Alan Cox]

I posted this pic on last year's thread about the 2008 Silverstone Classic, but it didn't draw any response and no-one came up with a reason why it is tagged as a P67 and not a P68

[Pedro 917]

The above car is the one that belonged to David Piper, the other car is still at Mecauto in Belgium where it's undergoing a complete restoration.
I recently received some pictures from Switzerland from someone who is building a replica, will look it up.

[Giraffe]

It could be that Piper made so many modifications to the car, wheelbase, doors etc that it couldn't justifiably be called a P68, couldn't be called a P69 for obvious reasons, would lose it's heritage if it was called a P70, and thus was christened P67. Just speculation.

With geography as a clue, the car I saw at Skopos in West Yorkshire would most likely be the Thwaites car, which was definately not the Piper car, so logically then, there must be three P67/68 in existance.

Edited by Giraffe, 06 August 2009 - 15:32.

[Red Socks]

It is the ex Alan Mann /Chris Irwin car then ex Piper car which has been put back into some sort of resemblance to its original specification but by no means is it completely correct.

[Alan Cox]

If you want something on your mantlepiece to remind you...
http://cgi.ebay.co.u...id=p3286.c0.m14

[Kingsleyrob]

Alan Cox, on Aug 18 2009, 08:11, said:

If you want something on your mantlepiece to remind you...
http://cgi.ebay.co.u...id=p3286.c0.m14

That looks luvverly Alan - and so reasonably priced too...

What's the story behind the extended lower part of the nose? My recollection is that the initial one had the more delicate nose of the stripped P68 of d'Ansembourg we see pictured earlier.

I'm almost sure I have a slot car up in my loft with the "prototype" nose. Transparent body, painted in the Alan Mann colours too, though not by me. Hand made brass chassis (not by me either!). Must get up there soon, although I dread the mess that greets me on opening the hatch.

Rob

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 18 August 2009 - 08:26.

[Kingsleyrob]

A link here to a contemporary photo showing the F3L's lines uncluttered by chin spoilers etc.. http://www.currypotp.../Ford-f3l-2.jpg

Rob

[Andy Somerton]

In 1970 as a car mad 15 year old I went into the local Ford garage in Morpeth, Northumberland to see the new Mk 3 Cortinas. Sitting at the back looking neglected behind the bright yellow and orange Cortinas was the sleekest race car I had ever seen. There was no information with it but I had a good look around it. The engine bay was empty and looking into the cockpit it had black seats with eyelets. It was a few months later when I read an artical in Motorsport that I realised what it was. Coincidently shortly after seeing the car in the garage the local model shop had an Airfix model of the car

regards

Andy

[Alan Cox]

Kingsleyrob, on Aug 18 2009, 09:25, said:

What's the story behind the extended lower part of the nose? My recollection is that the initial one had the more delicate nose of the stripped P68 of d'Ansembourg we see pictured earlier.
Rob

This contemporary Castrol advert, posted here earlier, shows the extended lower lip on the nose.
Castrol copyright

[Robin Fairservice]

This is a picture that I took of the Ford P69 in the paddock at Brands Hatch in April 196. Graham Hill and Jim Clark were supposed to have driven it, but they went to a F2 race in Hockenheim and Jim didn't come back.

[2F-001]

Robin Fairservice, on Aug 20 2009, 03:27, said:

This is a picture that I took of the Ford P69 in the paddock at Brands Hatch in April 196. Graham Hill and Jim Clark were supposed to have driven it, but they went to a F2 race in Hockenheim and Jim didn't come back.

Surely the car for which there were plans for Clark to race at the Brands BOAC 500 was the original 'P68' coupe - in 1968 - not the open and bi-winged P69... ? I think that picture must be from a year later.

Edited by 2F-001, 20 August 2009 - 06:19.

[Alan Cox]

2F-001, on Aug 20 2009, 07:17, said:

Surely the car for which there were plans for Clark to race at the Brands BOAC 500 was the original 'P68' coupe - in 1968 - not the open and bi-winged P69... ? I think that picture must be from a year later.

Indeed, the P69 was developed from the 1968 P68 and its only appearance was in practice for the 1969 BOAC 500.

[2F-001]

Interestingly (or possibly not...) at the time of the '68 BOAC wings of those proportions (and unsprung-mounted) had yet to be seen on Grand Prix cars (or indeed anything much else in top-level international sport other than the 2Es and 2Fs) and just a month or so after that '69 picture they were banished from nearly all categories.
(I've always assumed that the front wing on the P69 was mounted on the uprights too...?)

Edited by 2F-001, 20 August 2009 - 07:32.

[Stephen W]

Robin Fairservice, on Aug 20 2009, 03:27, said:

This is a picture that I took of the Ford P69 in the paddock at Brands Hatch in April 196. Graham Hill and Jim Clark were supposed to have driven it, but they went to a F2 race in Hockenheim and Jim didn't come back.

Above: Frank Gardner (Ford P69) at Brands during practice for the BA 500 in April 1969. [Copyright Steve Wilkinson]

As you can see it is the same race number as the above photo. I've reposted this as for some reason the original post back on page 1 has disappeared!

[Giraffe]

Pedro 917, on Aug 6 2009, 16:25, said:

The above car is the one that belonged to David Piper, the other car is still at Mecauto in Belgium where it's undergoing a complete restoration.
I recently received some pictures from Switzerland from someone who is building a replica, will look it up.

So how many cars do exist? There is the car that Ghys refers to above, which I presume is the d'Ansembourg car and there is the ex-Piper car seemingly declaring itself to be a P67 for reasons unknown. In addition there is the car that I saw in storage at the Skopos Museum in Batley that was most certainly not the Piper car, and not the Belgian car as that's been over there for some years. I remember the Skopos car as being very original.
The Piper car (P67) is of dubious heritage and quite heavily modified and the P69 seems to have dissapeared. Pictures of the crashed Irwin car gave me the impression that it was restorable, but considering so few of these cars were produced, it's amazing that no-one's kept tabs on them!

Edited by Giraffe, 20 August 2009 - 11:50.

[Red Socks]

Giraffe, on Aug 20 2009, 12:30, said:

So how many cars do exist? There is the car that Ghys refers to above, which I presume is the d'Ansembourg car and there is the ex-Piper car seemingly declaring itself to be a P67 for reasons unknown. In addition there is the car that I saw in storage at the Skopos Museum in Batley that was most certainly not the Piper car, and not the Belgian car as that's been over there for some years. I remember the Skopos car as being very original.
The Piper car (P67) is of dubious heritage and quite heavily modified and the P69 seems to have dissapeared. Pictures of the crashed Irwin car gave me the impression that it was restorable, but considering so few of these cars were produced, it's amazing that no-one's kept tabs on yhem!

See post 25