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#1 Leo

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 17:13

The new podium in Monza last year was a very impressive piece of construction, but still I my attention was drawn to the black banner behind the partying drivers. This banner displayed the name of the event, but contrary to almost every other race the Monza organisers added the fact that it was the 73rd Italian Grand Prix. I think it once used to be normal practice to put the race-number in the name of the race, but most organisers have dropped that a while ago. Interested by this fact I checked if Italians can count to 73 and I have strong suspicions that they cannot! (More on that later) Since I found an (probable?) inconsistency in the numbering of the Italian GP I decided to check some other GP's also. I started with FORIX and did some counting. Soon enough I ran into more trouble, so I decided this is a case for the TNF historians.

Here is the result of my labour so far (New Website, no more banners!! )

This is a list of the problems I came across:

AUSTRALIA
No problems, thanks to this excellent thread by Ray Bell

AUSTRIA
The first F1-event in Austria is the 1961 Flugplatzrennen (Airport Race) in Zeltweg. FORIX says this is the 4th Flugplatzrennen, but I found 4 events preceeding it. In 1957 and '58 there were sportscar races at Zeltweg and in 1959 / '60 there was a F2-event. That should make the F1-event the 5th Flugplatzrennen, except of course if one of the earlier races had a different name. The F2 events were called Flugplatzrennen as well, so that leaves the sportscar races. WSPR-racing.com calls the 1958-event the Austrian GP, but it seems generally accepted that the 1963 Zeltweg F1 event is the first to bear that title. No further clues.

BELGIUM
No problems at first, it looks like the Belgian GP died after exactly 60 events. Then I saw the official programme from the 1985 and '86 GP at Spa, saying it was the 32nd and 33rd Belgian GP respectively, while I had 43rd/44th. The designer of these posters seems to have overlooked the GP races before 1950.

FRANCE
Although the numbering looks okay, I've a couple of questions:
- Eight town-to-town races were retrospectively called GP de l'ACF. Is this generally accepted?
- Until 1968 the GP in France was called GP de l'ACF (after the organising body). However there are some French GP's in the early days (1911, '12, '13, '36, '49). After ACF became FFSA the Formula 1 race finally became the French GP. Now FORIX and others call the 1967 race the 53rd Gp de l'ACF and the 1968 race the 54th GP de France. I can understand it, but isn't it more logical to number the 1968 race 6th GP de France, since there had already been 5 events with that name before the war?

The numbering of the ACF GP's at Reims has I think messed up the numbering for the Reims and Marne GP-events. FORIX calls the three Reims GP 16th, 23rd and 28th, but I can't find the other 25 races. The same goes for the 1952 Marne GP, which FORIX calls the 20th.
FORIX also has a very odd numbering of the Salon GP.

Other French non-championship event unknowns:
- 1st Pau GP preceding the 2nd in 1933. Is the 1930 ACF GP at Pau also considered the 1st Pau GP?
- 1st Alsace GP (Strassbourg) preceding the 2nd in 1947.
- first five Boulogne GP's before 1926.
- 1st Lac GP (Aix-les-Bains) preceding the 2nd in 1950.
- first two La Baule GP's before 1926.
- 1st Alsace GP (Strassbourg) preceding the 2nd in 1947.
- 2nd Bourgogne GP (Dijon) between 1929 and 1946.
- 2nd Ouverture GP (Monthlery) between 1924 and 1927.
- 1st Paris GP (Monthlery) preceding the 2nd in 1948.
- 2nd and 3rd Lorraine GP (Nancy) between 1932 and 1935.
- 1st Picardie GP (Peronne) preceding the 2nd in 1927.

GERMANY
No major problems, although I didn't study the many national events in detail. The 1971 Rhein Pokal Rennen is listed as the 6th, I presume the 5 preceding races were national events for lower formula?

GREAT BRITAIN
I have seen three different names for the Brooklands events from 1926 and '27, those being RAC GP, English GP and British GP. The question is of course, which one is correct? So far I've chosen RAC GP (as on Darren Galpin's website).

The early British GP posters show numbers, for example 1951 is the 4th British GP. If the poster is correct than this supports the idea that the Brooklands events were not British GP's in name, but then again posters don't seem to be the most reliable sources.

There is a rather long list of non-championship events in Britain, which I haven't analysed in great detail. Most of it is directly from FORIX. One comment on the Oulton Park Gold Cup however: the first running took place in 1954 and there is a 1992 poster saying a BTCC-round event is the 40th Gold Cup. Wrong poster or were there ever two International Gold Cups in one year?

For some reason Mattijs has the 1982 British Formula 1 Championship race winners listed in 1983... (on 6thgear).

By the way, have all these event names disappeared from British racing? If I look at the official BRDC or BTCC websites I can't find any reference to names, only 'Silverstone (or whatever track I'm looking for) Round XX'.

ITALY
As I said the 2002 GP should be the 73rd, but I found only 72 races. The 1949 event is generally called the 19th Italian GP, the 1950 event the 21st Italian GP. Apparantly there never was a 20th Italian GP. See also the Monza website. Is this related to the cancellation of the 1939 Italian GP?

Other unknows:
- First four Belfiore GP's preceding the 5th in 1924
- First Coppa Principessa di Piemonte preceding the 2nd in 1934

MEXICO
I am aware of the two CART-races in 1980/'81, named "Copa Mexico 150". I'm not sure if they qualify as Mexican GP, so I left them out of the list. I did include last years "Gran Premio de Mexico Telmex/Gigante presented by Banamex/Visa" as the 17th Mexican GP.

MOROCCO
I'm not very sure about the list I produced here. The Ain Diab F1 races in 1956/'57 are mostly called 6th and 7th Moroccan GP. This means there must be 5 earlier races with that name. On Darren Galpin's site I found some sportscar races that might fit the bill. There have been pre-war GP-races in Casablanca however, called GP de Casablanca for the first two runnings, but Leif Snellman calls the third edition in 1934 both GP de Casablanca and GP du Maroc. I can't figure out what's correct or not.

NETHERLANDS
I thought there was no problem at all here, until I compared my list to FORIX. To my information F1 races started at Zandvoort in 1948. The first two years the (non-championship) races were called "Zandvoort GP", switching to "Dutch GP" in 1950. That year and the following the race was still no part of the World Championship, but became so in 1952. If I do the counting then that's the 3rd Dutch GP, while FORIX says it's the 4th. FORIX does say the 1950/'51 races are the 1st and 2nd Dutch GP.
More irregularities later. FORIX jumps from the 23rd Dutch GP in 1975 to the 25th in 1976. Those races are 22nd and 23rd on my list. I guess the confusion is caused by the 1976 GP Poster that says "25th Dutch GP", but the organisers probably included the 1948/'49 Zandvoort GP in the count.

On Stefan Onerdal's F2 Register I found a further mention of the "Zandvoort GP" in '67 (15th) and '68 (16th), can't find any mention of such races for the years in between. Was it a national event then?

PORTUGAL
When the Portuguese GP came to Estoril, the organisers called it the 4th GP. They forgot about a number of Sportscar and F3 races under the same banner. There is a thread on this forum that lists the results, but I forgot to bookmark it (sorry). FORIX is inconsequent: it goes from the 9th Portuguese GP (1960) to the 4th Portuguese GP in 1984.

SOUTH AFRICA
The first 3 Cape GP's before the 4th in 1960 are missing.
The events in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and Mozambique, part of the National Championship races, are listed here. These are the dates from 6thgear, didn't take a better at them.

SPAIN
Once again my count differs from FORIX, but this time I have no reasonable explanation. The problem is in the pre-war races, as I have the first post-war Spanish GP as the 11th, while FORIX lists it as the 13th. Rather confusingly FORIX has the pre-war event in 1935 as the 9th Spanish GP. Or were there Spanish GP's between 1935 and 1951?
Were the races held on 25/7/1928 and 25/7/1929 Spanish GP, San Sebastian GP or were there seperate races under each name?

USA
I suppose there will always be some discussion about what is an "USGP" and what is not, but I have decided to include the following events in the list:
Sportscar race Riverside ('58), F1 events in Sebring ('59), Riverside ('60) and Watkins Glen ('61-'80), CART race Meadowlands ('85) and then F1 again in Phoenix ('89-'91) and Indy (2000-'02), making last years' Indy race the 30th USGP.

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#2 Geoff E

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 17:40

Does this answer a question - or raise another one?

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Of course there was the San Remo GP on 3 April 1949 and the Monza race on 11 Sept was the European GP. Perhaps this has something to do with it?

#3 Leo

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 17:52

Neither, Geoff. That race is listed under the header "Monza GP" (on the Italy page) as II Gran Premio dell'Autodromo di Monza. It was a F2 event.

#4 Geoff E

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 18:02

Originally posted by Leo
Neither, Geoff. That race is listed under the header "Monza GP" (on the Italy page) as II Gran Premio dell'Autodromo di Monza. It was a F2 event.


Sorry, I edited my first reply - the II Gran Premio was on June 26th:-
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#5 Don Capps

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 18:40

Leo, You are a very brave soul to start nosing around in this area.

Eight town-to-town races were retrospectively called GP de l'ACF. Is this generally accepted?
Not really. As you point out, the race titles were given retroactively to the events in question, so these might not be pukka GP l'ACF in the strict sense of the term. However, the ACF did do this so you can take your choice. Remember that logic is for the logical, not necessarily for the organizing clubs or promoters. ...

Until 1968 the GP in France was called GP de l'ACF (after the organising body). However there are some French GP's in the early days (1911, '12, '13, '36, '49). After ACF became FFSA the Formula 1 race finally became the French GP. Now FORIX and others call the 1967 race the 53rd Gp de l'ACF and the 1968 race the 54th GP de France. I can understand it, but isn't it more logical to number the 1968 race 6th GP de France, since there had already been 5 events with that name before the war?
See above. Perhaps the question is, "What do you want the answer to be?"

USA
I suppose there will always be some discussion about what is an "USGP" and what is not, but I have decided to include the following events in the list:
Sportscar race Riverside ('58), F1 events in Sebring ('59), Riverside ('60) and Watkins Glen ('61-'80), CART race Meadowlands ('85) and then F1 again in Phoenix ('89-'91) and Indy (2000-'02), making last years' Indy race the 30th USGP.

Of course, there was the Grand Prix of America, the title taken by an ARCA event. Rusty memory coupled with being at the office means I cannot recall what they ended up finally calling the 1984 CART race at the Meadowlands, but at one point some sources referred to it as the "USGP at the Meadowlands" and others as the "Meadowlands GP." However, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities that I am painting both events with the same brush.

I will peruse some of the others later when I get the time. A good effort in this area is always welcomed.

#6 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 19:12

Fantastic effort, Leo! :up:
Most probably, I have to change nearly all of my results-pages... :p :|

Stefan

#7 Leo

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 23:26

Geoff : if you imply that the 11/9/1949 GP at Monza was only titled European GP and not Italian GP, then there are two instead of one races missing...

Don: So the numbering on the French races is rather arbitrary. I think I stick with the results I have for now then, because that's what I most frequently found.

About the Meadowland races: I found the name "Meadowland GP" for 1984 and "USGP" for 1985, but then again I'm far from an expert on CART.

Leo, You are a very brave soul to start nosing around in this area.


Well, when I started I thought this ought to be simple... I know now I was slightly wrong on that, but still I hope it must be possible to come up with a more or less accurate list.

Stefan : don't make your changes too hastily ;). I used your site as one of the sources, many of the F2 races in the list are there thanks to you!

#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 23:32

Originally posted by Don Capps
Leo, You are a very brave soul to start nosing around in this area.

Until 1968 the GP in France was called GP de l'ACF (after the organising body). However there are some French GP's in the early days (1911, '12, '13, '36, '49). After ACF became FFSA the Formula 1 race finally became the French GP. Now FORIX and others call the 1967 race the 53rd Gp de l'ACF and the 1968 race the 54th GP de France. I can understand it, but isn't it more logical to number the 1968 race 6th GP de France, since there had already been 5 events with that name before the war?
See above. Perhaps the question is, "What do you want the answer to be?"


Working from memory, because I'm too tired to dig out the sources at the moment ....

The 1968 race was originally entitled the 1st GP de France and that numbering continued until (I think) 1972 when common sense prevailed and the ACF and FFSA buried the hatchet. These races were then retrospectively renumbered in the same sequence as the original ACF races.

The previous Grands Prix de France were run by a variety of different clubs, but only the 1949 edition could really be considered to be in any way a top class event. There wasn't one in 1936 but there were races in 1934 and 1935 - 1934 in particular was little more than farce! As they have no continuous history, they aren't even usually consecutively numbered. In addition there was a F2 series which carried the name Grand Prix de France in 1952.

#9 Don Capps

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 23:42

Originally posted by Vitesse2
In addition there was a F2 series which carried the name Grand Prix de France in 1952.


Actually, it was the "Grands Prix de France."

And, I have a program for the "U.S. Grand Prix at the Meadowlands" for 1984.....

Leo, take my word for it, nothing is ever easy when you start digging into this stuff.... But, by golly, it sure can be fun! To say nothing of "educational"....

Good work! :up:

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 00:08

Okay, here's a few .....

Originally posted by Leo
FRANCE
Other French non-championship event unknowns:
- 1st Pau GP preceding the 2nd in 1933. Is the 1930 ACF GP at Pau also considered the 1st Pau GP? The first Pau GP was in 1901.
- 1st Alsace GP (Strassbourg) preceding the 2nd in 1947. 1926
- first five Boulogne GP's before 1926. 1921-5 inclusive
- first two La Baule GP's before 1926. 1924-5
- 2nd Bourgogne GP (Dijon) between 1929 and 1946. 1927, 1928, 1929, 1946
- 2nd Ouverture GP (Monthlery) between 1924 and 1927.
- 1st Paris GP (Monthlery) preceding the 2nd in 1948. 1927
- 2nd and 3rd Lorraine GP (Nancy) between 1932 and 1935. Possibly Voiturette events in 1932.
- 1st Picardie GP (Peronne) preceding the 2nd in 1927. 1926

GREAT BRITAIN
I have seen three different names for the Brooklands events from 1926 and '27, those being RAC GP, English GP and British GP. The question is of course, which one is correct? So far I've chosen RAC GP (as on Darren Galpin's website). RAC is correct

TITALY
As I said the 2002 GP should be the 73rd, but I found only 72 races. The 1949 event is generally called the 19th Italian GP, the 1950 event the 21st Italian GP. Apparantly there never was a 20th Italian GP. See also the Monza website. Is this related to the cancellation of the 1939 Italian GP?I believe so
Other unknows:
- First Coppa Principessa di Piemonte preceding the 2nd in 1934 Naples GP 1933

MOROCCO
I'm not very sure about the list I produced here. The Ain Diab F1 races in 1956/'57 are mostly called 6th and 7th Moroccan GP. This means there must be 5 earlier races with that name. On Darren Galpin's site I found some sportscar races that might fit the bill. There have been pre-war GP-races in Casablanca however, called GP de Casablanca for the first two runnings, but Leif Snellman calls the third edition in 1934 both GP de Casablanca and GP du Maroc. I can't figure out what's correct or not. 1925-8, 1930. I'm sure we discussed these races a while back.

SOUTH AFRICA
The first 3 Cape GP's before the 4th in 1960 are missing. Might be numbered on from the Grosvenor GP, 1937-39?


Sorry Don - finger trouble! I was going to go back and edit that ..... :mad:

#11 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 05:41

Australia is not as easy as it seems, the 1928 race was called the "100 Mile Road Race" and not the "Australian Grand Prix"
And then there is the 1927 race that was titled the "Australian Grand Prix"

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 06:06

...and a 1936 race that wasn't called 'The Australian Grand Prix' and is now termed the '1937 Australian Grand Prix'...

Most of that, however, is covered in the thread that's been linked.

#13 Leo

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 12:46

Thanks guys, I'll add the new data shortly. And read the Aussie GP thread again.. ;)

#14 Geoff E

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 13:51

Originally posted by Leo
Geoff : if you imply that the 11/9/1949 GP at Monza was only titled European GP and not Italian GP, then there are two instead of one races missing...


It seems far from clear what it was actually called - there are several sources which DO call it the European GP e.g. http://www.gpracing....tory/prewar.cfm (a couple of inches from the bottom). Some say "Italian GP also known as European GP". "Chequered Flag" by Ivan Rendall calls it Italian (European) GP - take your pick!

#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 14:13

The 40th Gold Cup was definitely 1993. It was also the first to be a BTCC round. In 1992 it was a F3000 race.

#16 Leo

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 14:34

What's this then?

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#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 14:42

I think you'll find it's a misprint :) August 7th 1992 was a Friday ......

#18 Leo

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Posted 26 March 2003 - 15:16

First, I've moved the files to a new website without ad-banners.

Second, I added the information from Vitesse2 (regarding the French races) and from Don Capps (on the 1984 USGP).

Vitesse2: The previous Grands Prix de France were run by a variety of different clubs, but only the 1949 edition could really be considered to be in any way a top class event. There wasn't one in 1936 but there were races in 1934 and 1935 - 1934 in particular was little more than farce!

For the 1934/'35 events, I think you're referring to the Grand Prix de l'UMF, listed seperately in my accounts. Leif Snellman says on his site that is incorrect to call those races Grand Prix de France. Who should I believe.

#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 March 2003 - 15:38

I'd go with Leif's interpretation. Some results compilers have lumped them all together for convenience, but there's a number of other events which were run by the UMF in other years - it just happens that these two were open to Grand Prix cars, rather than the usual Voiturettes or Cyclecars.

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#20 Marcor

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Posted 27 March 2003 - 00:18

I've just browsed the French races. Some remarks.

GP de Lorraine.
The AC de Lorraine organised a 15.5 km town to town race in the 20's, Toul-Nancy until 1930. In 1931 they replaced it by a circuit race named "Circuit de Lorraine et du Grand-Couronné". This 330 km handicap race was won by Marco (Bugatti 2 L u s/c). Fastest was Count Czaikowski (Bugatti T51). In 1932 there were 3 races, the first for voiturettes, the second for 2 L racing cars and the last one for big raving cars. In the second race Tedaldi heavilly crashed and the race was stopped after 9 laps. No races in 1933 and 1934.


GP de Picardie.
Paul Sheldon said that 1925 was the first edition. I've noticed it was the second edition but no trace of the first edition. 1925 and 1926: races for little cars (1100 cc or less).


GP de France, GP de l'UMF at Monthléry.
This meeting with several races was organised by the UMF, a French motorcycling Club / Federation. 6 or 7 races in a day, including motorbikes race and racing / sportscars races.
I have for the big class the results:
1932, 9 October, Pierre Félix (Alfa Romeo 1750 cc s/c).
1934, 9 September, 90 km, Benoit Falchetto (Maserati 8CM 3009).
1935, 2 June, 90 km, Raymond Sommer (Alfa Romeo Tipo B 2.9 L).

Other races organised by a motorbike federation was Le Grand Prix de France du MCF, Moto-Club de France. Same principle, at Monthléry, meeting mixing short (1 h) motorbikes and cars races.
4 October 1931, GP de France du MCF, all races = 100 km.
17 September 1933, GP de France du MCF, big racing car class won by Sommer (Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 Monza).
6 September 1936, GP de France du Moto Club de France, sportscars, won by "Raph" (Talbot).


GP de Lausanne.
Lausanne is in Switzerland !!!

#21 anjakub

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Posted 27 March 2003 - 17:18

Leo,

Sind Sie Deutsch?

Please remeber that in no case - Großer Preis von Lemburg


Correctly:

Grand Prix Lwowa




Grand Prix Lwowa
Circuit: Lwów
Length: 3,041 km

full names of events:

08.09.1930 - Wyscigi Automobilowe o Nagrode Miasta Lwowa
07.06.1931 - Miedzynarodowe Okrezne Wyscigi Automobilowe o Nagrode Miasta Lwowa
19.06.1932 - II Miedzynarodowe Okrezne Wyscigi Automobilowe, Grand Prix Lwowa
11.06.1933 - III Miedzynarodowe Wyscigi Automobilowe, Grand Prix Lwowa

(naturally without Polish diacritical marks)

or shortly
I Grand Prix Lwowa
II Grand Prix Lwowa
III Grand Prix Lwowa
IV Grand Prix Lwowa

#22 humphries

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Posted 27 March 2003 - 19:52

Marc

Do not mention the GP de Picardie!!

There is something not right about the 1925 and 1926 editions in the Black book.

The newspapers of the day referred to the 1930 race as the 5th edition. So the first must have been in 1926. I now have the date 22 August, 1926 and the race was won by "Louis" who I believe was Chiron. Henry (Auber?) was second and the 1100cc class won by D'Estais - a new name to me. This information comes from a privately published book called "Au Temps du Grand Prix De Picardie Circuit De Peronne" by Rene Lavalard and Robert Embry. It is a bit of a jumble of a book but the photographs are excellent.

They state two rallyes were organised by the ACP for members only jn 1924 and 1925. There is no mention of the two cyclecar races as in the Black Book. Yet there is a photograph of a table outside in the sunshine with the prizes on it, dated 1925. The prizes range from trophies, glass bowls, urns, a can of Spidoleine and a rather large sausage! Possibly these two cyclecar races were of a club nature and not part of the GP series. Paul may have renumbered the races unnecessarily.

We were scratching our heads years ago and I didn't really want to restart, but it needs to be sorted.

John H

#23 D-Type

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 00:37

Leo,
You have opened a can of worms haven't you?

I always thought it was

1926 - 1st RAC British GP
1927 - 2nd RAC British GP

1935 to 1938 - Donington GP's not British GP's

1948 - RAC Grand Prix - not a British GP
1949 British GP
1950 was called the 11th GP d'Europe (incorporating the 2nd British GP)
but,
1951 was called the 4th British GP
and the usually accepted numbering goes on from there

Logically the numbering should then be
1926 - I
1927 - II
1949 - III
1950 - IV
1951 - V, etc

But to make 1951 no IV we either have
1926 - I
1927 - II
1950 - III (the first championship GP)
1951 - IV, etc
which omits the 1949 race as it wasn't for any championship

or we have
1948 - I (retrospectively called a British GP)
1949 - II
1950 - III
1951 - IV, etc
which omits the 1926 and 1927 races

I suppose it's the latter on the principle that racing before Formula 1 doesn't exist or if it happened before I was born it didn't exist

But does it matter, when they let names like the TT die?

#24 d.c.a. mulcahy

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 07:07

Here are some quotes from David Hodges book 'The French Grand Prix' regarding the inconsistencies in numbering the French Grand Prix.

'The A.C.F. (Automobile Club de France) naturally became responsible for racing in France and many years later was to lend its authority to the fiction that the (1895) Paris-Bordeaux-Paris (race), which pre-dated its own formation, was the first Grand Prix de l'A.C.F., the first French Grand Prix.'

'This year (1949) there were to all intents and purposes two French Grands Prix: the 'Grand Prix of the Automobile Club of France for Sports Cars' run at Comminges and the 'Grand Prix of the Associated Automobile Clubs of France and the Automobile Club of Champagne' run for Formula 1 cars at Rheims. By its title, the first was the true French Grand Prix; to most people the race bearing the revived title of Grand Prix de France was the French Grand Prix - certainly in the eyes of authorities such as Faroux it was the major French race of the year.'

'Between 1906 and 1966 44 French Grand Prix were run. Yet at Rouen in 1964 the 50th Grand Prix de l'A.C.F. was run and celebrated...'

'According to the Automobile Club de France, this race (1964) was to be their 50th Grand Prix, although even some senior gentlemen in French racing circles could not agree that it was any more than the 42nd; indisputably, however, the first motoring competition had taken place in 1894 and had ended in Rouen, so none could deny that it was appropriate that the 1964 Grand Prix should be run there and that it marked an anniversary.'

regards

d.c.a. (declan) mulcahy

#25 Racer.Demon

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 08:30

Originally posted by Marcor
GP de Lausanne.
Lausanne is in Switzerland !!!


Quite right, but what about Oran being in Algeria, that, admittedly was French territory at the time? Is that "France" too? I will let the colonialists decide on that! Then again, Leo, you opted to include all other colonial-territory events in Misc. African Events, so when being consistent, the Oranie GP belongs there too.

But that's just nitpicking - I take my hat off and a give big :up: to what you have achieved! Really great stuff.

Originally posted by anjakub
Sind Sie Deutsch?

Please remeber that in no case - Großer Preis von Lemburg

Correctly:

Grand Prix Lwowa


Talking about shifting borders, that was indeed Polish territory between the two World Wars, so the Polish official titles would be correct. But without becoming too political, from a Ukrainian point Poland was "occupying" the Western Ukrainian city of Lviv at the time... Throughout history, the city has seen so many rulers that no-one can claim that territory to be "theirs", so why "in no case"? Is the aftermath of German and Austro-Hungarian influence still hitting an open nerve in Eastern Europe, Andrzej? ;)

(Nitpicking again, Leo, but it's actually Lemberg!)

#26 Leo

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 16:15

Made some updates with the preceding information:

Lorraine GP: removed the 1933/34 races. Are the 1932 and '35 race actually called "Lorraine GP" or should it be "Circuit de Lorraine et du Grand-Couronné"?

UMF / MCF GP: MCF GP added and 1936 MCF GP deleted as "GP de France".

Lausanne GP: Lausanne is now in Switzerland... (stupid mistake on my part :blush: )

Oran GP: Oran is now in Algeria ("Misc. African Races"). I honestly didn't know that, don't want to raise any colonial questions ;)

Lwowa GP: German names replaced by Polish names. (Anjakub: I'm Dutch).

#27 Leo

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 16:41

Oh, and I forgot about this:

Catalina Park: Australia is not as easy as it seems, the 1928 race was called the "100 Mile Road Race" and not the "Australian Grand Prix"
And then there is the 1927 race that was titled the "Australian Grand Prix"


Ray Bell: ...and a 1936 race that wasn't called 'The Australian Grand Prix' and is now termed the '1937 Australian Grand Prix'...
Most of that, however, is covered in the thread that's been linked.


From the Aussie GP thread:

It's about time we looked at why these races are known as the Australian Grand Prix, because, as mentioned of the 1928 and 1936 races, they weren't so known originally.
When the first '100 miles road race' was held, it was the first road race ever in Australia. There had been a lot of intercity record runs, reliability trials and short course races. But cars didn't race so well or so safely on horse racing tracks, so there were special ovals made available. But these still weren't road races, so, with a wink and a nudge at the law, Phillip Island hosted the 1928 event...
It was a natural, in retrospect, to call it the Australian Grand Prix. It stood alone, the biggest car race ever held in the country, and a road race to boot, with a host of Bugattis and so on. By 1929 it was so known and remained so as long as the Light Car Club ran the event.
Then they bowed out after the 1935 race. There were others running races at Phillip Island by then, but the Grand Prix title wasn't adopted.
The running of the grandiose event at Port Elliot was just the event to capture the imagination, attract the runners and start the ball running again. It was some 21 months after the 1935 race, and it was officially called the South Australian Centenary Grand Prix, but - again in retrospect - it became known as the Australian Grand Prix.
Just how it became the 1937 Grand Prix when it was run in 1936 is a mystery.
(Ray Bell)

On my website I have listed the 1928 and 1936 GP as Australian GP, because Ray says these names were applied in retrospect. I also mentioned the original names in the "comments-colom". So am I doing something fundamentally wrong? If so, then you have to help me out here...

#28 humphries

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 19:11

Does anybody have the official entry lists for any of the Lwow Grands Prix?

John H

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 20:42

Originally posted by Leo
.....On my website I have listed the 1928 and 1936 GP as Australian GP, because Ray says these names were applied in retrospect. I also mentioned the original names in the "comments-colom". So am I doing something fundamentally wrong? If so, then you have to help me out here...


Not at all...

What CP and I have pointed out is that when it comes to cataloguing these races, there are anomalies that have developed over the years.

Moreover, since I posted that original piece about the AGP, more information has come to light about the event held in 1927, and particularly how such information has been deliberately swept under the floormat by interests in Victoria... especially, it seems, because of their claim to having inaugurated the Australian Grand Prix.

Officially, the 1928 event is known as the first Australian Grand Prix. However, those I have met who were there still refer to it (or did until their demise) as the 'hundred miles road race'... no matter that this description is cumberson compared to 'Grand Prix'.

Despite what we have learned, the powers that be are unlikely to accept that the 1927 event should be in the catalogue. Remembering that the CAMS power base is in Victoria, and the format of the race with three heats and a final, each with only a few cars, and that it was held on a horse race course, and probably that it was conducted by a company whose stated aim was to make money out of racing at a number of such venues in country areas.

And there would appear to be few who would promote that idea. Though, ironically, this was just outside that racecourse on the morning of the 75th anniversary celebrations that took place in Goulburn last year... absolutely unconnected with the anniversary or the event, pure coincidence...

Posted Image

So, at the moment, the accepted lineage of the Australian Grand Prix includes 1928 and 1936 (which it calls 1937, the biggest mystery of all), and not 1927, so you are correct. It would not be wrong, either, to put in your "comments column" that there was a race called by that name on January 17, 1927 at Goulburn in NSW and that Geoff Meredith won it in a Bugatti.

#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 22:06

Originally posted by humphries
Does anybody have the official entry lists for any of the Lwow Grands Prix?

John H


Andrzej (alias anjakub) has posted some here in the past. Not sure if they're complete though. Use BB Search and enter Lwow as a keyword, anjakub in "Search for posts by"

#31 anjakub

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 11:31

John,
I have not your e-mail. So, I send entry list by this way.


Grand Prix Lwowa 1930
1 Henryk Liefeldt (Poland) Austro Daimler ADR
2 Jan Ripper (Poland) Bugatti 37A
3 Franciszek Mycielski (Poland) Bugatti 37A
4 Antoni Heller (Poland) Bugatti 35B
5 Maurycy Potocki (Poland) Bugatti 35B

Grand Prix Lwowa 1931
1 Hans Stuck (Germany) Mercedes Benz SSK
2 Maximilian Hardegg (Austria) Bugatti 35C
3 Charley Jellen (Germany) Bugatti 35B
4 Stanislaw Holuj (Poland) Bugatti 37A
5 Hubert Sachsel (Austria) Bugatti 35C
6 Jan Ripper (Poland) Bugatti 35B
7 Adolf Szczyzycki (Czechoslovakia) Wikov 7/28

Grand Prix Lwowa 1932
1 Hans Stuck (Germany) Mercedes Benz SSK
2 Josef Stastny (Czechoslovakia) Bugatti 35B
3 Bruno Sojka (Czechoslovakia) Bugatti 37
4 Laszlo Hartmann (Hungary) Bugatti 37A
5 Albert Broschek (Germany) Mercedes Benz SSK
6 Rudolf Caracciola (Germany) Alfa Romeo 8C-2300
7 Stanislaw Holuj (Poland) Bugatti 37A
8 Jan Ripper (Poland) Bugatti 37A

Grand Prix Lwowa 1933
Race Class > 1500 cc:
4 Eugen Björnstad (Norway) Alfa Romeo 8C-2300
8 Per-Viktor Widengreen (Sweden) Alfa Romeo 8C-2300
14 Georges Nadu (Romania) Bugatti 35B
16 Renato Balestrero (Italy) Alfa Romeo 8C-2300
? Jan Kubicek (Czechoslovakia) Bugatti 35B
? Walter Wustrow (Austria)Bugatti 35C
? Roger Morand (France) Bugatti 35B
? Karl Alfred Ebb (Finland) Mercedes Benz SSK
? Laszlo Hartmann (Hungary) Bugatti 35B
? Edward Zawidowski (Poland) Bugatti 35B
Race Class < 1500 cc:
26 Anne Rose Itier (France) Bugatti 51A
32 Pierre Veyron (France) Bugatti 51A
34 Maria Kozmianowa (Poland) Bugatti 37
36 Ernst Burgaller (Germany) Bugatti 51A
38 Vittoria Orsini (Italy) Maserati 4CM-1500
? Hans Rüesch (Switzerland) Bugatti 39
? Stanislaw Holuj (Poland) Bugatti 37A
? Guido Landi (Italy) Maserati 26C (8C-1100)
? Jan Ripper (Poland) Bugatti 37A
? Ernst Simmons (Luxemburg) Bugatti 37
? Bruno Sojka (Czechoslovakia) Bugatti 51A

From year 1933 I have not all start numbers.

#32 917

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 12:22

Leo,

as far as I know the German Grand Prix from 1927 to 1929 was driven on the full track of the Nürburgring (combined Nordschleife and Südschleife). The only source confirming this I can find at the moment is Leif Snellman's website:
http://www.kolumbus....snellman/t2.htm
He mentions also that the length of the full track was 28.265 km.

Kind regards
Michael

#33 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 13:44

Originally posted by 917
Leo,

as far as I know the German Grand Prix from 1927 to 1929 was driven on the full track of the Nürburgring (combined Nordschleife and Südschleife). The only source confirming this I can find at the moment is Leif Snellman's website:
http://www.kolumbus....snellman/t2.htm
He mentions also that the length of the full track was 28.265 km.

Kind regards
Michael


I can confirm that. Source: Cyril Posthumus - The German Grand Prix.

#34 Oleksij Hrushko

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 11:05

Leo,
I was making calendar of 1950's races and found some "new" info. May be it'll useful for your site.

French races:
I Grand Prix de Rouen-les-Essarts – date 30 July 1950
II Grand Prix du Lac – correct date 28 May 1950

And why I Großer Preis von Luxemburg of 1997 is first? What about Luxembourg GP 1950, sportcars race, 18 May?

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 13:22

Originally posted by Oleksij Hrushko
And why I Großer Preis von Luxemburg of 1997 is first? What about Luxembourg GP 1950, sportcars race, 18 May?


Oleksij: you have the spellings the wrong way round, which will help you understand.

The correct spelling for the current race is "Luxembourg", as it is a national GP. The earlier race was a city GP - the capital of the country is properly spelled "Luxemburg".

There are also two previous Luxemburg GPs - 1939 (sports cars) and 1949 (F2).

#36 Leo

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 22:29

Sorry guys, but I've been busy with other things the last couple of weeks. I'll return to this project soon.

Ray: thanks for the explanation, that helps a lot.

Vitesse: are you sure about Luxemb(o)urg? As far as I know Luxemburg is the Dutch spelling (two centuries ago Lux. was part of the Netherlands) and Luxembourg the French and the name of the capital and country are spelled the same.

So far I found these GP de Luxembourg (pre-1997) :
1949 Sportscars
1950 Sportscars
1951 F3
1952 F3
The 1939 Sportscar race was apparently called "GP du Centenaire".

#37 Falcadore

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 06:36

Originally posted by Leo
What's this then?

Posted Image
Large


Considering the Toyota and BMW in that picture feaute 1993 bodyshapes and 1993 colour schemes on all three cars not 1992 then it's definately a misprint.

#38 Falcadore

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 07:28

Just going over your list and notes I have, and being unable to recall the specific reasons for the notes....

I have a 1927 European Grand Prix being held at Montlhery rather than Monza. Did I make that up?

#39 Falcadore

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 10:18

There's some typos with the dates on the Malaysian Grand Prix.

It should also be noted that there has been an Indonesian Grand Prix. The first, as far as I know, was a Formula Brabham (Formula Holden) event held in 1993, won by Mark Larkham (Reynard 91D Holden). Tommy Soeharto started the race in a full Formula 3000. Grrrrr. Still he didn't figure in the race.

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#40 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 10:49

Originally posted by Leo
Sorry guys, but I've been busy with other things the last couple of weeks. I'll return to this project soon.

Ray: thanks for the explanation, that helps a lot.

Vitesse: are you sure about Luxemb(o)urg? As far as I know Luxemburg is the Dutch spelling (two centuries ago Lux. was part of the Netherlands) and Luxembourg the French and the name of the capital and country are spelled the same.

So far I found these GP de Luxembourg (pre-1997) :
1949 Sportscars
1950 Sportscars
1951 F3
1952 F3
The 1939 Sportscar race was apparently called "GP du Centenaire".


The name of the country is in Luxembourgeois, which is a dialect of French. The city name is rooted in either Dutch or German. :)

Sorry about the mistake on the earlier races. You are of course correct - I was using Monkhouse/King-Farlow, which in this case is in error :)

#41 Marcor

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 16:54

Luxembourg is the name of 3 places
1)- The Country
In French, Grand-Duché de Luxembourg. Not a king but a Grand duke.


2)- The town
In French: Luxembourg
in German, Dutch and in Luxembourgeois: Luxemburg.

Luxembourgeois is a dialect which is a mix of French and German.
A lot of Students from the Grand-Duché go to the universities in Belgium (Liège, Louvain-La-Neuve, Namur, Mons, Brussels).

3)- A Belgian Province, La Province de Luxembourg, which includes the Belgian Ardennes and La Gaume. Main town is Arlon. The language is exclusively French.

Arlon is near the French and Luxembourgeoise Borders.

#42 fines

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Posted 29 April 2003 - 15:41

Originally posted by Marcor
Luxembourgeois is a dialect which is a mix of French and German.

Nitpicking perhaps, but it's rather French and Muselfränkisch, which is the dialect spoken here in Bitburg. Mais Letzeburerich as an realité en gaanz ejen Sproach, gelivt!

#43 Leo

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 14:50

I finally found some time to look at these names and number again and made the following updates:

Australia:
Added a remark about the 1927 race in Goulbourn.

France:
Correct dates added for the 1950 GP du Lac and GP de Rouen-les-Essarts.

Germany:
Corrected track layout for 1927-29 German GP

Italy:
Added the cancelled 1939 Italian GP to the list, to 'fit' the count.

Luxembourg:
Added the 1949-52 Luxembourg GP, renumbered the later F1-events.

Malaysia:
Corrected the typo's in the dates (1999, 2000)

Remminder, from my initial post:;)

SPAIN
Once again my count differs from FORIX, but this time I have no reasonable explanation. The problem is in the pre-war races, as I have the first post-war Spanish GP as the 11th, while FORIX lists it as the 13th. Rather confusingly FORIX has the pre-war event in 1935 as the 9th Spanish GP. Or were there Spanish GP's between 1935 and 1951?
Were the races held on 25/7/1928 and 25/7/1929 Spanish GP, San Sebastian GP or were there seperate races under each name?


I made a quick and dirty list of the data that is still missing in the tables (I'll keep on searching) :


ARGENTINA

Track length - VIII GP Buenos Aires (Costanera), 1951

Track length - IX GP Buenos Aires (Buenos Aires), 1952

Track length - X GP Buenos Aires (Buenos Aires), 1953

Track length - XI GP Buenos Aires (Buenos Aires), 1954

Track length - XII GP Buenos Aires (Buenos Aires), 1955

Track length - XIII GP Buenos Aires (Mendoza), 1956

Track length - XIV GP Buenos Aires (Buenos Aires), 1957

Track length - XV GP Buenos Aires (Buenos Aires), 1958

Track length - XVI GP Buenos Aires (Cordoba), 1960

Track length - I GP Evita Peron (Palermo), 1948

Track length - II GP Evita Peron (Palermo), 1949

Track length - III GP Evita Peron (Palermo), 1950

Track length - IV GP Evita Peron (Costanera), 1951

Track length - V GP Evita Peron (Buenos Aires), 1952



AUSTRALIA

Exact date   - V Australian GP (Phillip Island), 1932

Exact date   - XXXV Australian GP (Warwick Farm), 1970

Exact date   - XXXVI Australian GP (Warwick Farm), 1971 (F5000/F2)

Exact date   - XXXVII Australian GP (Sandown Park), 1972 (F5000/F2)

Exact date   - XXXVIII Australian GP (Sandown Park), 1973 (F5000/F2)

Exact date   - XL Australian GP (Surfers Paradise), 1975 (F5000/F2)

Exact date   - XLII Australian GP (Oran Park), 1977 (F5000/F2)

Exact date   - XLIII Australian GP (Sandown Park), 1978 (F5000/F2)

Exact date   - XLIV Australian GP (Wanneroo), 1979 (F5000/F2)

Track length - XLIV Australian GP (Wanneroo), 1979 (F5000/F2)

Exact date   - XLV Australian GP (Calder Park), 1980 (F1/F5000)

Exact date   - XLVI Australian GP (Calder Park), 1981 (Atlantic)

Exact date   - XLVII Australian GP (Calder Park), 1982 (Atlantic)

Exact date   - XLIX Australian GP (Calder Park), 1984 (Atlantic)



BELGIUM

Exact date   - II GP de Frontieres (Chimay), 1927

Exact date   - VI GP de Frontieres (Chimay), 1931

Category	 - VI GP de Frontieres (Chimay), 1931



FRANCE

Exact date   - I GP de France (Le Mans), 1911

Exact date   - XVIII GP de Pau, 1958 (F2)

Exact date   - XIX GP de Pau, 1959 (F2)

Exact date   - XX GP de Pau, 1960 (F2)

Exact date   - XVI GP d'Albi, 1954 (F2)

Exact date   - II GP de la Baule, 1925

Track length - II GP de la Baule, 1925

Category	 - II GP de la Baule, 1925

Missing	  - I GP du Lac, pre-1950

Exact date   - I Circuit de Cadours, 1949 (F2)

Exact date   - III Circuit de Cadours, 1951 (F2)

Track length - II GP de Caen, 1953 (sportscars)

Track length - I GP du MCF (Monthlery), 1931

Track length - II GP du MCF (Monthlery), 1933

Track length - III GP du MCF (Monthlery), 1936

Track length - I GP de l'UMF (Monthlery), 1932

Missing	  - I GP de Paris, pre-1948



GERMANY

Exact date   - Eifelrundfahrt (Nideggen), 1922

Exact date   - I Int. ADAC Eifelrennen (Nideggen), 1924

Exact date   - II Int. ADAC Eifelrennen (Nideggen), 1925

Exact date   - III Int. ADAC Eifelrennen (Nideggen), 1926



GREAT BRITAIN

A lot of missing data in the national events



ITALY

Exact date   - Italian GP (Monza), 1939 (race cancelled)

Numbering	- GP Citta di Imola (1963-72)

Exact date   - II Circuito di Alessandria, 1925

Exact date   - III Circuito di Alessandria, 1926

Exact date   - IX Circuito di Alessandria, 1932

Missing	  - I until IV Belfiore GP, pre-1924

Exact date   - I Circuito di Montenero, 1921

Exact date   - II Circuito di Montenero, 1922

Exact date   - III Circuito di Montenero, 1923

Exact date   - XIV GP di Roma, 1955 (Sportscars)

Exact date   - VII Circuito di Mugello, 1926

Track length - VII Circuito di Mugello, 1926

Missing	  - I Coppa Principessa di Piemonte, pre-1934

Exact date   - XIII Napoli GP (Posillipo), 1960 (FJ)



LUXEMBOURG

Exact date   - I GP du Luxembourg, 1949

Exact date   - II GP du Luxembourg, 1950

Exact date   - III GP du Luxembourg, 1951

Exact date   - IV GP du Luxembourg, 1952



MOROCCO

Exact date   - I until V Morocco GP (Casablanca), 1925-1928, 1930

Track length - I until V Morocco GP (Casablanca), 1925-1928, 1930



SOUTH AFRICA

A lot of missing data in the national events



SPAIN

Exact date   - I Spanish GP (Guadarrama), 1913 (Sportscars)



SWEDEN

Missing	  - I until VIII Kanonloppet (Karlskoga), pre-1961

Missing	  - I and II Svenska Isloppet (Lake Hjalmaren), pre-1933

Missing	  - I Skarpnackloppet (Skarpnack), pre-1952



MISC. EASTERN EUROPEAN EVENTS

Exact date   - IX Masarykuv Okruh, 1950


#44 Oleksij Hrushko

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 12:47

For Argentina's and other events I'm advising to search through datas of http://www.jmfangio.org/historial.html