63 replies to this topic

[HDonaldCapps]

Quote

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
I'll bet that most would agree that l'affair Tyrrell reflected much more unfavorably upon FISA than Tyrell.

Ken was a honourable team owner, and I sincerely believe that he and Team Tyrrell believed that they were operating within the boundary of rule interpretation (or perhaps scrutineering as practiced by FISA).

Of course, this does not matter to the lemmings.....

[Slyder]

Quote

Originally posted by petefenelon


Brundle's best drive, IMHO, was five years later at Monaco. The revived Brabham-Judds (remember they'd sat out '88 and changed ownership, so they were languishing in prequalifying hell) were the most convincing cars on the day after the McLarens, and Martin ran third, looking smooth and damn quick for much of the race until he needed to pit for a new battery - lost two laps and still brought it home for a point.

pete

Tbh, if it wasn't for that battery change, I think Brundle would've challenged Senna for the win. That Brabham was clearly faster than the McLaren during the race.

Monaco 1984, that was quite a race. Mansell throwing it all away, Senna and Bellof demolishing the competition with magnificent drives. There will always be a conspiracy theory regarding that race, personally I think it should've gone on, or stop the race and have it restarted later on. but whatever.

Senna or Bellof might have won the thing and Prost might have been world champion, but it's all a bunch of ifs... we'll never know for sure. However, I seriously doubt that if Bellof had won, he would've been stripped from his win. That would've been just flat-out catastrophic for the image of F1. Some sort of deal would've been arranged for at least have Tyrrell lose their constructor points, but still allow the drivers race and count their points.

[HDonaldCapps]

Quote

Originally posted by Slyder
However, I seriously doubt that if Bellof had won, he would've been stripped from his win. That would've been just flat-out catastrophic for the image of F1. Some sort of deal would've been arranged for at least have Tyrrell lose their constructor points, but still allow the drivers race and count their points.

Balestre and the leading lights of FOCA were determined that Tyrrell would be dealt with and as harshly as possible. Had Bellof won, they would have not blinked to take away the win. There would have been no deal, witness the way in which it was handled.

I also think that Ickx made the best decision he could based on the information he and the ACM had available to them.

[uechtel]

Watching the video footage of the race on youtube again, I got very surprised by a scene which I had not been aware of so far. Obviously, at 6:36 the blue flag is shown to race leader Alain Prost with Alboreto closely behind him and trying to unlap himself!

 

I have to agree I can not remember any other occasion that a blue flag was shown to anybody else than to drivers about to being lapped, signalling them to give way for somebody who is quicker. Maybe there was some odd situation when the flag was shown to a driver defending his position when the marshalls had mismatched it and assumed a lapping manoeuvre, but has there ever been another occasion when the flag was 'intentionally' shown to a race leader?

 

And was it to the rule? Is there a right to unlap (means that the car in front has to move to the side when it is caught up by a car which is a lap down)?

 

And on a second thought, maybe the situation is also an indication, that the story of the race was not only about Senna catching up so fast, but rather Prost slowing down so much (or a combination of both)?

[Tim Murray]

The main use of the blue flag has always been to indicate to a driver that he has a car closely following him that he might be unaware of. Until recently there was no requirement that he had to let this car overtake, and I believe the current rule requiring a driver being lapped to let the following car overtake applies only to F1 and perhaps a few other top level categories of racing. Certainly in 1984 the blue flag shown to Prost at Monaco would only have been to warn him that Alboreto was close behind and trying to get past. My understanding is that Michele had been following some distance behind Alain for many laps, but had closed onto his tail when Alain slowed down because of his brake problems. In my view it was quite reasonable for the marshals to show him the blue flag, to warn him about a situation of which he might have been unaware in the dreadful conditions.

[chunder27]

Plus

 

Marshals at Monaco in my opinion were often back then quite pro Ferrari!!

 

But I don't consider this to be the case here, Alain was probably unaware and quite happy to let Michele past, stopping the race was his main concern!!

[uechtel]

Thanks for the explanation, you are right of course. It shows how much I already forgot over the last thirty years (damn, am I really that old, I still have problems to regard the eighties as being 'nostalgia'...). But thanks to watching the footage of the complete race again I think it comes back to me now. As far as I can remember now, I think that the rule was, that a blue flag indeed didn´t mean more than a signal, that a car is behind, while the signal for to have to let somebody pass by was indeed a waved blue flag (like here at 7:22...)

Edited by uechtel, 14 September 2017 - 08:19.

[Michael Ferner]

bira, on 09 Apr 2003 - 03:53, said:

Full laptimes of the Monaco 84 GP
Full lap chart (with all gaps) of that race

In case you're interested

Are these still available, does anyone know? And if, what other years does AtlasF1.com have lap times for?

[kevins]

May be of use Michael:

 

http://ergast.com/mrd/

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, that's useful, thank you! However, it only starts with 1996, so my original query still stands!

[Michael Ferner]

Nobody with a valid Autosport membership who has a minute to spare to check out those links?? What has happened to this friendly and helpful bunch of enthusiasts that used to be TNF, does it no longer exist??

bira, on 09 Apr 2003 - 03:53, said:

Full laptimes of the Monaco 84 GP
Full lap chart (with all gaps) of that race

In case you're interested

Just in case anybody is stalling because he/she's afraid I will ask them to copy the data for me, no! I am thinking about buying a membership myself if the data is interesting enough.

[nexfast]

They are not working at all. When I try the log out page of Autosoport appears (and I'm a subscriber).

Edited by nexfast, 27 September 2017 - 23:02.

[Kvadrat]

I have it saved like this: http://disk.tom.ru/22r3pqp.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, nexfast! That's rather sad, and a missed opportunity for Autosport.com!

Vladimir, I have sent a PM.