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#1 marat

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 19:26

Among the many private drivers who entered worldchampionship races in the early fifties, Legat
is the oldest (53 when he raced first time in the Belgian GP 1952).
His story is told in this week's "La vie de l'auto", with many intesting photos as his T35 Bugatti
with a "fish tale" or his racing car trailed by his breakdown truck.

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#2 ensign14

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 21:43

Thanks for the info. The best source I have seen for info on Legat is 'Les Grands Prix des Frontieres a Chimay' (Volume 1) by Andre Biaumet, as Legat was almost synonymous with that race.

#3 Marcor

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 21:56

This Bugatti T35B (Serial number = 4947) was indeed transformed by Arthur Legat. He bought it to Georges Bouriano and used it for the first time in 1934, finishing second (just behind Willy Longueville in a similar car) in the Opbrakel hillclimb in Belgium. Arthur Legat was a garagist, living at Haine-Saint-Paul, and he made the special transformation around 1937/1938 for the 1938 GP des Frontières. The car had a nickname: "La Boule".

Arthur Legat started his career in 1923, first as a motorbiker (sidecarist) then acquiring a 1100 cc Amilcar, then a Bugatti 37A with which he won the 1931 and 1932 GP des Frontières. Legat used the 35B until 1948. He then acquired a Maserati 4CM, used it in 1949, then a Veritas, ... He raced until 1959 in his beloved circuit: Chimay, of course !!

Marat, where can I find "La vie de l'Auto" ? I guess it is from France. Is this article written by André Biaumet ?

#4 marat

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 18:29

Marcor, LVA is sold in France, Belgium Switzerland and Italy. E mail: lva@elvea.fr
Article written by Luc Scournaux, photos from Legat family.

#5 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 11:05

Originally posted by marat
Marcor, LVA is sold in France, Belgium Switzerland and Italy. E mail: lva@elvea.fr
Article written by Luc Scournaux, photos from Legat family.


You may find Legat Chimay starts in A.Biaumet book. He race there in every year from 1926 to 1959 exept 1928/1950/1955

All his GP and Voiturette starts you can find in Sheldon's black books.

He took part with his Veritas Meteor ( it is supposed that this car was driven by Hermann Lang in 1950 and is the car owened by Schröder & Weise, hannover for a long time) in the Kilometre lance de Wolvertem (Belgique) on March,16th 1952 with a timed speed of 206,896 km/h

Later he owned a Veritas Nürburgring 2 liter sportcar Chassis#4203 and equipped the car with his Heinkel engine. It is said that he started with this car in several belgian races but I have no results.

Does anyone give a list of his Veritas starts ?

thanks so long

#6 uechtel

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 13:54

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hugo Boecker


He took part with his Veritas Meteor ( it is supposed that this car was driven by Hermann Lang in 1950
[/QUOTE]

Interesting to read that. I am very interested in tracing down the Veritas connections to Belgium, so perhaps you can help me on this. Can you tell me more about that (how the car came into Legat´s hands?)and from which source do you have this information?

[QUOTE]Later he owned a Veritas Nürburgring 2 liter sportcar Chassis#4203 and equipped the car with his Heinkel engine. [/QUOTE]

Again, can you tell me the source for the chassis code?

And I think the Veritas-Nürburgring RS (= the later models built by Loof at the Nüburgring garage) were originally fitted with the Heinkel (= Meteor) engine when they left the "works". While the engine was a Veritas development (by Ing. Zipprich) Heinkel received order for the series production.

It is said that he started with this car in several belgian races but I have no results.

Does anyone give a list of his Veritas starts ?

thanks so long [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, alas I do not have much more besides the Chimay appearances from the Biaumet book

23.7.1950 12 h de Paris (SC 2.0) / Veritas RS (co-driver Vermeulen) - ? 13.5.1951 Chimay F2 / Veritas-Meteor - ret
15.7.1951 Mettet F2 / Veritas-Meteor - 13 1.6.1952 Chimay F2 / Veritas-Meteor - 6th
22.6.1952 Belgian GP / Veritas-Meteor - 13th
24.5.1953 Chimay F2 / Veritas-Meteor - 9th
21.6.1953 Belgian GP / Veritas-Meteor - ret
6.6.1954 Chimay F2 (old) / Veritas-Meteor - 5th ?
20.5.1956 Chimay (SC 2.0) / Veritas-Nürburgring RS - 6th
9.6.1957 Chimay (SC 2.0) / Veritas-Nürburgring RS - ret
5.5.1958 Chimay (SC 2.0) / Veritas-Nürburgring RS - 7th
?.?.1958 Cote d´Ardenne hillclimb(SC ?) / Veritas-Nürburgring RS - ? 17.5.1959 Chimay (SC) / Veritas-Nürbrugring RS - ret

The Cote d´Ardenne might be a clue, perhaps he appeared there in other years, too, or in some other hillclimbs. But I do not know which events were held in Belgium in those years.

#7 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 22:42

Originally posted by uechtel


Interesting to read that. I am very interested in tracing down the Veritas connections to Belgium, so perhaps you can help me on this. Can you tell me more about that (how the car came into Legat´s hands?)and from which source do you have this information?



Again, can you tell me the source for the chassis code?



Hello Uechtel,

the story of the Meteor was told to me by Achim Weise. Some years ago I've been in their book-shop at Hannover and we talked about the Veritas cars. He showed me the car in his garage and gave me the infos.

The chassis code of the RS is from the booklet " Dokumentation zum 6. Int. Veritas-Treffen 3.-6. Juli 1997 in Meßkirchen."

so long

#8 uechtel

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Posted 26 May 2004 - 11:16

Amazing! Are there more infos in that booklet or do you have more knowledge about other individual cars?

So far I had some problems to trace down the individual histories of the "Belgian" cars, which appeared first in 1951 at Chimay, when the old Veritas company had already broken down.

In that event alongside the two cars of Legat and Vermeulen there was also Peter Hirt with his car, together with Aebli the only remaining of the former Ecurie Suisse team, which had (to my knowledge) consisted of four cars altogether. Also Ecurie Suisse had had at least some connections to Belgium already before in the person of Marcel Masuy / J.M. Marcy, who is listed with Belgian nationality in several sources. So I concluded, that Legat´s and Vermeulen´s cars were the other "ex-Suisse" cars (of Glauser and Masuy probably), which had been brought along by Hirt (and perhaps Masuy) and sold to Legat and Vermeulen on this occasion.

But with your information it seems, that I have to re-think that completely. So do you know what happened to the other three cars of the Ecurie Suisse?

And the Lang / Legat car: Is that the same car (of course reworked afterwards), that Kling used at Cologne in 1949? If not, then I have another car "lost", as I have no information, what happened to it afterwards.

Perhaps the best way to work it up is to show you my personal Meteor chassis list:


Chassis No.		1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11



1949

2.10. Köln		Kling



1950

7.5. Erlen				(Hirt)	Glauser	Marcy?

4.6. Bern			Lang	Hirt	Glauser	Marcy

11.6. Eifelrennen		Lang				Kling		

30.7. Genf				Hirt	Glauser

6.8. Freiburg				Hirt	Glauser	Marcy	Kling	Aebli

13.8. Solitude			Lang				Kling

20.8. GP D			Lang	Hirt	Glauser	Marcy	Kling	Aebli	Pietsch

17.9. Grenzlandring		Lang				Kling



1951

3.5. München		Loof?							Pietsch

13.5. Monza									Pietsch

	  Chimay				Hirt						Legat	Vermeulen

20.5. Genua									Pietsch

27.5. GP CH				Hirt

3.6. Eifelrennen			Hirt		de Terra ?	Klenk		Pietsch

17.6. Dresden							Klenk		

1.7. Avus				Hirt			Klenk		Pietsch

15.7. Mettet										Legat

5.8. Freiburg									Pietsch

12.8. Erlen				Hirt				Aebli	Pietsch

9.9. Grenzlandring			Hirt			Klenk	Aebli

30.9. Sachsenring						Klenk

6.10. Dresden							Klenk



1952

10.5. Silverstone								Pietsch

25.5. Eifelrennen						Klenk		Pietsch

1.6. Chimay										Legat

22.6. GP B										Legat

3.8. GP D							Klenk		Pietsch

31.8. Grenzlandring						Klenk		Pietsch

28.9. Avus							Klenk		Pietsch



1953

3.5. Chemnitz												Heeks

24.5. Chimay										Legat		Heeks

31.5. Eifelrennen						Klenk					Heeks

21.6. GP B										Legat

12.7. Avus							Klenk					Heeks

2.8. GP D							Herrmann				Heeks

9.8. Freiburg							Herrmann



1954

6.6. Chimay										Legat

1.8. GP D							Helfrich

19.9. Avus							Niedermayr

So if you say, that #2 (Lang) is identical to #9 (Legat) this leaves #10 (Vermeulen) and #11 (Heeks) unidentified.

The Heeks car is reported ("das Auto" 1953) to have been a completely new car built up by Loof at the Nürbrugring for the 1953 season, but I am not completely sure, whether it is indeed not in fact one of the old cars rebadged.

Concerning #10: If the Legat car isn´t one of the Ecurie Suisse cars then have I to rethink about the origin of the Vermeulen car, too.

Also the disappearing of #1 after 1949 is suspicious to me, so this leaves the following possibilities:

Either
#1 = #2 = #9 means the 1949 Kling car was reclothed for 1950 and used by Lang and then sold to Legat in 1951, which would make that the most original of them all.
For #10 this would leave either a completely new car (unlikely in 1951) or one of the Ecurie Suisse cars (Glauser or Marcy)
Or
#2 = #9 and #1 = #10, which would mean, that the 1949 car had a whole year rest and reappeared in Vermeulen´s hands in 1951, while Lang´s car in 1950 was a completely new car. Also this would open the question what happened with the other two Ecurie Suisse cars?

So perhaps you can add something to clear this subject?

#9 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 10:41

Originally posted by uechtel
Amazing! Are there more infos in that booklet or do you have more knowledge about other individual cars?


Hello Uechtel,

here is something about the Meteors from my booklet.
In 1997 there are still four Metors existing, quoted by the Veritas Register.

Chassis 85335
Veritas Urgoßmutter, this car has an offset driving position
Chassis 4201
This car was enveloped with the Pietsch-streamliner. It is said, that the car/body was rebuilt in Belgium and raced there several times
Chassis 4202
This is one of the Ecurie Suisse cars, raced by Peter Hirt in the 1951 Bern GP.
Chassis 4207
is the Legat car , the Schöder & Weise car.

And there is the Kling/Klenk „Vollstromer"
according to Motorclassic 10/96 the chassis nr of this car is 4110. The body was built by Hebmüller

Just seeing the Ecurie Suisse car’s chassis nr. is 4202 and the chassis nr. 4203 of Legat’s Nürburgring RS I suppose this is one of the three/four suisse cars and given back to Loof ??
There was an other „new" car in 1953, was this an ex Suisse car, too ??

In Cimarosti’s book about the Suisse GPs the Orley Veritas is given the chassis-nr. -25, the Pietsch Veritas is given the Chassis-Nr. 502. Is 4201 one of the Suisse cars given the Pietsch body?

It’s a pitty that the Veritas Register founded by Rolf Konen in 1984 is more or less a secret event.

I have some Meteor starts in hillclimbs besides the Freiburg Hillclimb

18. June 1950 Course de Cote de Ars Alexandre Orley Meteor -25 2nd o/a
30. July 1950 Susa Mont Cenis „J.M.Marcy" Meteor 3rd o/al and racingcars
31. September 1951 Alblis hillclimb Tony Ulmen „Großmutter 2nd Formula 2

Are there any more. I think the Suisse cars were expected on the hills.

Here are some infos of some other topics you may be intersted in.

Dr. Ring of DAMW fame recived a Veritas 2 Liter in 1950. Here is the List from my booklet.

At the end of 1948 following driveres recieved a Veritas RS
1. Josef Hummel (Freiburg) 1,5 Ltr. à in 1950 Paul Pietsch (Freiburg)
2. Heinz Mölders (Offenburg) 1,5 Ltr.
3. Kurt Schäufele (Wiesbaden) 2 Ltr.
4. Helm Glöckler (Frankfurt) 1,5 Ltr.
5. Robert Armand (France) 2 Ltr.
6. Karl Kling (Stuttgart) 2 Ltr. à in 1950 Kurt Adolff (Aachen)

In 1949 additional drivers started with a Veritas RS
1. Eduard Gräser (Mannheim) 1,5 Ltr.
2. Fritzgeorg Martin (Rottweil) 2 Ltr.
3. Theo Helfrich (Mannheim) 2 Ltr.
4. Heiz Jäger (Bochum) 2 Ltr.
5. Herrmann Roosdorp (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
6. Jonny Claes (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
7. Emile Cornet Belgium) Ltr.

Although developing a new engine some RS were diliverd with BMW engine in 1950
1.& 2. Adolff and Pietsch see above
3. Oswald Karch (Oggersheim) 2 Ltr.
4. Ernst Troeltsch (Freiburg) 1,5 Ltr.
5. Hans Roth (München) 1,5 Ltr.
6. Dr.Ring (Berlin) 2 Ltr.
7. Fruitz Ries (Nürnberg) 2 Ltr.
8. Hans Schuler (Suisse) 1,5 Ltr.
9. Franz Hammernick (Suisse) 1,5 Ltr.
10. Kurt Halter (Suisse) 2 Ltr.
11. Andre Pilette (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
12. Roger Laurent (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
13. Jaques Swaters (Begium) 2 Ltr.
14. Marcel Masuy (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
15. Marcel Lambert (Luxembourg) 2 Ltr.
16. Honore Wagner (Luxembourg) 2 Ltr.
17. Johann Westhof (Netherlands) 2 Ltr.
18. Francoise Vermeulen (Belgium) Scorpion with Heinkel engine
19. Karl Kling (Stuttgart) Meteor with Heinkel engine
20. Herrmann Lang (Stuttgart) Meteor with Heinkel engine
21. Peter Hirt (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine
22. Kaspar Aebli (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine
23. J.M.Marcy (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine
24. Paul Glauser (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine


I do't think Dr. Ring is Brauchitsch, he lived at Starnberg at this time. In Cris Nixon's book "Racing the silver arrows" it's said "in 1951 he made his first of several trips to east Germany ..." but it's good topic by Michael Müller in the DAMV tread.

I think Masuy and Marcy are different persons.
Marcel Masuy was a motorbiker. He raced BMW in the 1950 and a Norton sidecar in the 1951/2/3 World-Championship. His passenger in 1950/1 was DENNIS JENKINSON !
see: http://www.chez.com/...TO_SOMMAIRE.htm
Who was J.M. Marcy? In the book "Verstummte Motoren Die Geschichte des schweizer Grand Prix" the name is given MASSARA in the following text he is called "Marcy". Any clues?

And last something on Stuck’s AFM.
In 1954 suisse hillclimber Heini Walter bought the car from Stuck. The Fridolin. Company built a nicce sports car body for the chassis. He raced it in some races but without sucsess (Preis von Bremgarten rtd) Nr. 78. There is a picture in the book „Heini Walter eine Rennfahrer Legende"

I'll come back to your chassis list later.

so long

#10 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 11:02

Who was J.M. Marcy? In the book "Verstummte Motoren Die Geschichte des schweizer Grand Prix" the name is given MASSARA in the following text he is called "Marcy". Any clues


Haaa ! Going through "Verstummte Motoren" I found out Mr. Massara aka Marcy(?) was race director of the last Bremgarten GP in 1954 !

so long

#11 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 11:04

J.M:Marcy


Who was J.M. Marcy? In the book "Verstummte Motoren Die Geschichte des schweizer Grand Prix" the name is given MASSARA in the following text he is called "Marcy". Any clues


Haaa ! Going through "Verstummte Motoren" I found out Mr. Massara aka Marcy(?) was race director of the last Bremgarten GP in 1954 !

so long

#12 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 12:34

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hugo Boecker

[]Who was J.M. Marcy?
/QUOTE]

Just worked thru the whole "Verstummte Motoren" (crossreading) Marcy is [b]Marcel Massara
who was race director in the Suisse Grand Prix of 1951, 1952, 1953 and finaly 1954. He followed Fritz Cristen who was race director from 1939 to 1950. His predecessor Mr. Max? Huber. He resigned after the fatal crash of the suiss sports car driver Gübelin.

so long

#13 uechtel

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 14:36

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
here is something about the Meteors from my booklet.
In 1997 there are still four Metors existing, quoted by the Veritas Register.

Chassis 85335
Veritas Urgoßmutter, this car has an offset driving position
Chassis 4201
This car was enveloped with the Pietsch-streamliner. It is said, that the car/body was rebuilt in Belgium and raced there several times
Chassis 4202
This is one of the Ecurie Suisse cars, raced by Peter Hirt in the 1951 Bern GP.
Chassis 4207
is the Legat car , the Schöder & Weise car.

And there is the Kling/Klenk „Vollstromer"
according to Motorclassic 10/96 the chassis nr of this car is 4110. The body was built by Hebmüller


Yes, this seems to be a quite complete list AFAIK. But so far I did not know of the chassis numbers :love: , so thanks very much for those!

With "Urgroßmutter" you certainly refer to Ulmen´s special? If so then this is also very interesting to me, as in this case this is no Meteor, but the original RS prototype completely rebuilt. But I think in this case this is better discussed in the other thread:

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=51073

Just seeing the Ecurie Suisse car’s chassis nr. is 4202 and the chassis nr. 4203 of Legat’s Nürburgring RS I suppose this is one of the three/four suisse cars and given back to Loof ??


I don´t think this conclusion is very likely, as if you look at my table above you see, that Lang´s (the "works") car was used in parallel to the Ecurie Suisse cars. Also Hirt´s car in fact appeared already at Erlen, so BEFORE Lang at Berne, so 4202 - 4203 might indeed be the correct order. Conclusion: This would automatically mean, that the original Kling car from 1949 had #4201, hence a different chassis?

There was an other „new" car in 1953, was this an ex Suisse car, too ??


Sorry, I don´t know that. The information is from the magazines and they say it was a new car built for Heeks in 1953. Also the car has a different "face" in new Veritas-Nürburgring style (which of course doesn´t say much). So it might be indeed a completely new car.

In Cimarosti’s book about the Suisse GPs the Orley Veritas is given the chassis-nr. -25, the Pietsch Veritas is given the Chassis-Nr. 502. Is 4201 one of the Suisse cars given the Pietsch body?


:drunk:

The Orley car was an early predecessor, no Meteor, as it had a BMW engine. "502" sounds very strange, sometimes it seems as if there were different numbering systems? Anyway Pietsch received his car for the German GP 1950 (again look at my list), where all Suisse cars plus Lang´s were present. In addition to that it is reported, that it was completed just in time, so I think it is a new car quite for sure.

It’s a pitty that the Veritas Register founded by Rolf Konen in 1984 is more or less a secret event.


yes

I have some Meteor starts in hillclimbs besides the Freiburg Hillclimb

18. June 1950 Course de Cote de Ars Alexandre Orley Meteor -25 2nd o/a
30. July 1950 Susa Mont Cenis „J.M.Marcy" Meteor 3rd o/al and racingcars
31. September 1951 Alblis hillclimb Tony Ulmen „Großmutter 2nd Formula 2

Are there any more. I think the Suisse cars were expected on the hills.


Thanks for the additions! I have posted all appearances I know of, so I don´t know either, whether there were further hillclimb appearances. One should suspect that, as with the poor reliability the cars should have been much better suited for such events.

I do't think Dr. Ring is Brauchitsch, he lived at Starnberg at this time.


Yes, we have already laid that theory aside.

I think Masuy and Marcy are different persons.
Marcel Masuy was a motorbiker. He raced BMW in the 1950 and a Norton sidecar in the 1951/2/3 World-Championship. His passenger in 1950/1 was DENNIS JENKINSON !
see: http://www.chez.com/...TO_SOMMAIRE.htm
Who was J.M. Marcy? In the book "Verstummte Motoren Die Geschichte des schweizer Grand Prix" the name is given MASSARA in the following text he is called "Marcy". Any clues?


So were both of them Veritas drivers? And if I understand you right, then Massara was Swiss and Masuy Belgian?

Very interesting discussion! More from my side this evening!

#14 ensign14

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 15:19

Can I just say this is all gold dust? Many thanks to uechtel and Hugo - maybe 5 years ago I thought that there were a bunch of BMW sports cars in the German GPs in the early 50s, now a great and varied (and complicated!) scene has been explained. uechtel's articles at 8w are an absolute must for anyone interested in this area (check them here).

#15 uechtel

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 21:48

@ensign14: Thanks for the compliment. Glad to have caused some pleasure for you. :)

But this afternoon I have been quite in a hurry and in my excitement about the new facts it seems that I did not read Hugos post diligently enough. So as a logical result my reply has been partially pure nonsense. :mad:

So second attempt:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
here is something about the Meteors from my booklet.
In 1997 there are still four Metors existing, quoted by the Veritas Register.

Chassis 85335
Veritas Urgoßmutter, this car has an offset driving position
Chassis 4201
This car was enveloped with the Pietsch-streamliner. It is said, that the car/body was rebuilt in Belgium and raced there several times
Chassis 4202
This is one of the Ecurie Suisse cars, raced by Peter Hirt in the 1951 Bern GP.
Chassis 4207
is the Legat car , the Schöder & Weise car.

And there is the Kling/Klenk „Vollstromer"
according to Motorclassic 10/96 the chassis nr of this car is 4110. The body was built by Hebmüller

Just seeing the Ecurie Suisse car’s chassis nr. is 4202 and the chassis nr. 4203 of Legat’s Nürburgring RS I suppose this is one of the three/four suisse cars and given back to Loof ??
There was an other „new" car in 1953, was this an ex Suisse car, too ??[/QUOTE]

What really confuses me at second glance is the order of the chassis numbers. One would expect them in chronological order, which is a clear contradiction to the story of the Pietsch car.

As is written in his biography ("Doppelsieg" by Mike Riedner) the car was completed only two days before the German GP of 1950. This sounds very credible as because of that Pietsch had to place a late entry and so he took part in first practise with a "T" painted on the car instead of a number.

So his car can not have been the first Meteor as the chassis number "4201" would suggest. Also the sequence of the other numbers seems quite confusing. If the Legat car was indeed Lang´s car of 1950, then it should have been also one of the first Meteors and carry a much lower number. Same with Kling´s car (look at my table - it is hard to believe, that ten cars already existed mid-1950!). Finally 4203 for a 1952 model Nürburgring RS (Legat)? Very strange.

Possible explanations:
1. The cars were completed from a stock of frames, that had been produced already before
2. The numbers refer not to the chassis, but to the engines, which were delivered by Heinkel "out of line"
3. The numbers are complete "fantasy"...

:confused:

And again, I don´t think, that the Suisse cars went ever back into the ownership of Loof. He would not have anything to pay for...

Final remark: According to Rosellen´s book one Meteor was bought by Mercedes-Benz for chassis and engine studies. Could this have been Kling´s car, who was resident at Stuttgart and to my knowledge Mercedes employee all the time?

[quote]
In Cimarosti’s book about the Suisse GPs the Orley Veritas is given the chassis-nr. -25, the Pietsch Veritas is given the Chassis-Nr. 502. Is 4201 one of the Suisse cars given the Pietsch body? [/quote]

Very interesting thought. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the chassis register is kept so secret, who knows?

25, 502, 4201, 5075... there seems to be really no system in that.

I have some Meteor starts in hillclimbs besides the Freiburg Hillclimb

18. June 1950 Course de Cote de Ars Alexandre Orley Meteor -25 2nd o/a
30. July 1950 Susa Mont Cenis „J.M.Marcy" Meteor 3rd o/al and racingcars
31. September 1951 Alblis hillclimb Tony Ulmen „Großmutter 2nd Formula 2
[/quote]

Again thanks for this information. The first two are completely new to me! For the Albis hillclimb I have 23.9.1951 as date, which sounds more logical, as 31.9.1951 was a monday.

Also I did not include Ulmen in my table. The reason is, that I do not regard his car as a proper Meteor: Not even a Meteor engine, but the old BMW 328 instead.

[quote]
Here are some infos of some other topics you may be intersted in.

Dr. Ring of DAMW fame recived a Veritas 2 Liter in 1950. Here is the List from my booklet. [/quote]

http://hometown.aol....burgring_50.jpg

As you already said, he is a different person to von Brauchitsch. Proof is, that I have both of them appearing in the same event at the Solitude in 1950.


[quote]
At the end of 1948 following driveres recieved a Veritas RS
1. Josef Hummel (Freiburg) 1,5 Ltr. à in 1950 Paul Pietsch (Freiburg)
2. Heinz Mölders (Offenburg) 1,5 Ltr.
3. Kurt Schäufele (Wiesbaden) 2 Ltr.
4. Helm Glöckler (Frankfurt) 1,5 Ltr.
5. Robert Armand (France) 2 Ltr.
6. Karl Kling (Stuttgart) 2 Ltr. à in 1950 Kurt Adolff (Aachen)[/quote]

In 1948 I have also Ulmen, Roese, Kathrein and a car in Belgium (Claes / Cornet). And of course Kling´s first car (now owned by Bossong) and the "Großmutter" (still with the "works").

My project to sort them out is still very much in the beginning. 1948 seems to be manageable, but everything after 1949 is still hopeless.

[quote]
In 1949 additional drivers started with a Veritas RS
1. Eduard Gräser (Mannheim) 1,5 Ltr.
2. Fritzgeorg Martin (Rottweil) 2 Ltr.
3. Theo Helfrich (Mannheim) 2 Ltr.
4. Heiz Jäger (Bochum) 2 Ltr.
5. Herrmann Roosdorp (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
6. Jonny Claes (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
7. Emile Cornet Belgium) Ltr.[/quote]

Gräske instead of Gräser. Other than that I have also Poore, Hutchison, Pilette, Laurent, Gurris, Halter, Hammernick (1,5), Karch, Rosenhammer (1,5) and Crook. Maybe some of them are identical . Ulmen took over the "Großmutter" and rebuilt it to a monoposto for 1950.

[quote]
Although developing a new engine some RS were diliverd with BMW engine in 1950[/quote]

In fact I think ALL of the RS were still fitted with the BMW engine. To my knowledge the Meteor-engined cars, produced in the new factory at Muggensturm, were named "Comet", "Saturn" or "Scorpion".

[quote]
1.& 2. Adolff and Pietsch see above
3. Oswald Karch (Oggersheim) 2 Ltr. already appeared in 1949 (Nürburgring GP)
4. Ernst Troeltsch (Freiburg) 1,5 Ltr. I think this is identical to the Hummel / Peitsch car (says Schumann)
5. Hans Roth (München) 1,5 Ltr.
6. Dr.Ring (Berlin) 2 Ltr.
7. Fruitz Ries (Nürnberg) 2 Ltr. The ex-Kling (#1) / ex-Bossong car with new front (Schumann)
8. Hans Schuler (Suisse) 1,5 Ltr.
9. Franz Hammernick (Suisse) 1,5 Ltr.
10. Kurt Halter (Suisse) 2 Ltr.
11. Andre Pilette (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
12. Roger Laurent (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
13. Jaques Swaters (Begium) 2 Ltr.
14. Marcel Masuy (Belgium) 2 Ltr.
15. Marcel Lambert (Luxembourg) 2 Ltr.
16. Honore Wagner (Luxembourg) 2 Ltr.
17. Johann Westhof (Netherlands) 2 Ltr.
18. Francoise Vermeulen (Belgium) Scorpion with Heinkel engine
19. Karl Kling (Stuttgart) Meteor with Heinkel engine
20. Herrmann Lang (Stuttgart) Meteor with Heinkel engine
21. Peter Hirt (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine
22. Kaspar Aebli (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine
23. J.M.Marcy (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine
24. Paul Glauser (Suisse) Meteor with Heinkel engine
[/quote]

as I said I lost my contact to reality in 1950...

[quote]
I think Masuy and Marcy are different persons.
Marcel Masuy was a motorbiker. He raced BMW in the 1950 and a Norton sidecar in the 1951/2/3 World-Championship. His passenger in 1950/1 was DENNIS JENKINSON !
see: http://www.chez.com/...TO_SOMMAIRE.htm
Who was J.M. Marcy? In the book "Verstummte Motoren Die Geschichte des schweizer Grand Prix" the name is given MASSARA in the following text he is called "Marcy". Any clues?[/quote]

I am absolutely ignorant about this. As I said I always thought they were one and the same person.

[quote]
And last something on Stuck’s AFM.
In 1954 suisse hillclimber Heini Walter bought the car from Stuck. The Fridolin. Company built a nicce sports car body for the chassis. He raced it in some races but without sucsess (Preis von Bremgarten rtd) Nr. 78. There is a picture in the book „Heini Walter eine Rennfahrer Legende"[/quote]

Another shot from the rear is in Halwar Schrader´s "BMW Automobile". Fridolin Company is new to me, was it a Swiss coachwork builder?

#16 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 23:14

Hello again

first too much honor ensign14 thanks !


Another shot from the rear is in Halwar Schrader´s "BMW Automobile". Fridolin Company is new to me, was it a Swiss coachwork builder?



Fridolin Company is in Freiburg

For the Albis hillclimb I have 23.9.1951 as date, which sounds more logical, as 31.9.1951 was a monday.



with a second thought I agree on your date - September 31st isn't a monday at all ! (must be a typo)

Chassis Numbers



the first Veritas car are based on BMW 328 and were called Veritas BMW the cars built So Roese car was a Veritas-BMW, Kathrein's car seens to be a Veritas BMW to. He lend this car to Glöckler, who came 1st at Hockenheim (1500ccm class) in 48.

Dennis Poore brought his car from Emile Cornet and he sold his car to the USA in 1950 (Chassis Nr. 50540 ) I think it is the same car driven by Hutchinson but know this seems unlikely.

Helm Glöckler's 49 championship winning car has Chassis Nr. 51995

chassis 5042 was built in 49 for Claes according to his owner (1997) Aumann.

Hamernick's car has 5074 Schuler's has 5075

Kling's car



Kling sold his car to Klenk but why shouldn't the Mercedes racing department examine the car. May be there was a financal deal. In his biography "Jagd nach dem Sieg" Kling gives no information of the Veritas fate after he was hired by Mercedes. But he reported of tests with the Meteor at Montlhery after the Colonge race, end 1949. His thought were full of his new streamliner body when he drove at the french circuit and he crashed the Meteor, luckly without injury but the car had heavy damage. The 1950 Maipokal race he started with Ulmen's 2 litre RS.


so long

#17 Adam F

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 12:25

Hugo,

Dennis Poore brought his car from Emile Cornet and he sold his car to the USA in 1950 (Chassis Nr. 50540 ) I think it is the same car driven by Hutchinson but know this seems unlikely.



The Hutchison / Poore Veritas was one car (Hutchison and Poore were in racing partnership at this time). It did, it seems, come from Emile Cornet, painted yellow and it still had its Belgian Registration number when it appeared at the Easter 1949 Goodwood meeting.

A second Veritas, also painted yellow, appeared in the UK in August 1949, owned apparently by Buster Baring, but driven largely by Tony Crook. Both this car and the Poore/Hutchison car ran at the September Goodwood meeting.

I have to assume that both of these cars were the usual "temporary imports" as both seem to have disappeared from the UK at the end of 1950, in line with the information that the Poore/Hutchison car went to the USA.

By the way, Emile Cornet was racing another (?) Veritas RS in Belgium in 1949 at the same time as the Poore/Hutchison car was racing in the UK. He seems to have kept this car until 1951.

Uechtel,
What do you know about Cornet's car(s)?

#18 uechtel

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 17:54

the first Veritas car are based on BMW 328 and were called Veritas BMW the cars built So Roese car was a Veritas-BMW, Kathrein's car seens to be a Veritas BMW to. He lend this car to Glöckler, who came 1st at Hockenheim (1500ccm class) in 48.

1. Josef Hummel (Freiburg) 1,5 Ltr. à in 1950 Paul Pietsch (Freiburg)
2. Heinz Mölders (Offenburg) 1,5 Ltr.
3. Kurt Schäufele (Wiesbaden) 2 Ltr.
4. Helm Glöckler (Frankfurt) 1,5 Ltr.
5. Robert Armand (France) 2 Ltr.
6. Karl Kling (Stuttgart) 2 Ltr. à in 1950 Kurt Adolff (Aachen)


ok, I understand now: Your list contains only the Veritas cars, that were not built on a BMW frame?

Kathrein's car seens to be a Veritas BMW to. He lend this car to Glöckler, who came 1st at Hockenheim (1500ccm class) in 48.


This is another problem to me. This should be a picture of Glöckler at Hockenheim in 1948:

Posted Image

clearly a different car to that of Kathrein at Schotten in the same year:

Posted Image

and also clearly different to the car Glöckler used later regularly:

Posted Image

(just look at the air-outlets at the side of the cars)

So has Kathrein´s car been rebodied already so shortly after its completion? :confused:

Kling sold his car to Klenk but why shouldn't the Mercedes racing department examine the car. May be there was a financal deal. In his biography "Jagd nach dem Sieg" Kling gives no information of the Veritas fate after he was hired by Mercedes. But he reported of tests with the Meteor at Montlhery after the Colonge race, end 1949. His thought were full of his new streamliner body when he drove at the french circuit and he crashed the Meteor, luckly without injury but the car had heavy damage.


So indeed it could have reappeared as "new" car later in the year...

Originally posted by Adam F
Uechtel,
What do you know about Cornet's car(s)?


The "foreign" cars are even more problematic to me, as there is much less information about them in German sources. Also it seems, that quite a number of such cars went through the hands of the Belgian "club", who seem to have done the export to the UK. I have up to four cars simultaneously in one event for Cornet, Pilette, Laurent, Claes, Swaters, so unfortunately it´s extremely hard to get them sorted out.

#19 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 01 June 2004 - 01:01

Originally posted by uechtel


ok, I understand now: Your list contains only the Veritas cars, that were not built on a BMW frame?



This is another problem to me. This should be a picture of Glöckler at Hockenheim in 1948:

Posted Image

clearly a different car to that of Kathrein at Schotten in the same year:

Posted Image

and also clearly different to the car Glöckler used later regularly:

Posted Image

(just look at the air-outlets at the side of the cars)

So has Kathrein´s car been rebodied already so shortly after its completion? :confused:



So indeed it could have reappeared as "new" car later in the year...




Das Auto reports in No. 5 1948 p 15 :
Hinter dem überlegenen von Falkenhausen stieg Kathrein diesmal in seinen alten 1,5 Liter BMW, nachdem er seinen Veritas an Glöckler abgetreten hatte, der damit den dritten Platz belegen konnte...

this indicates that Kathrein lend his car to Glöckler, who came third. There are no pictures of the 1,5 liter cars in Das Auto, so the ?? keeps on.

something more on Klings streamliner:
in Motor Klassik Oktober 1990 is an interesting report about the restauration of the streamliner done by Gerry Porter and his team. The car was finished in 1950 and was a new car. ( not the Colonge Monoposto) and raced by Kling in 1950, in 1951 it was raced by Klenk and sold to Klenk in the beginning of 1952 for some 10.000 DM according to Klenk. During Nurburgring test Rudolf Uhlenhaut did some laps and was impressed by the chassis quality. After Klenk's Ring accident Hans Herrmann used the car. End of 53 it was tuned up for the new F1 specifications (bigger tank, new monoposto-body ) and raced by Helfrich and Niedermayr at the Ring and Avus F1 races. Klenk sold the car and all his material on June 16th 1956 to Willie Roberts. Roberts intended to enter the car at the German GP in 1957. The driver should be Erwin Bauer, one of Klenk's drivers and Hans Herrmann's mentor. If he could lap the ring under 11 min with the Veritas he would enter the car. But Bauer crashed fataly in the 1957 ADAC 1000 KM race. The car was stored in a garage at Pirmasens.

something on the Belgian cars:
Veritas did some belgian speed records at Jabbeke near Oostend:
15 June 49
Andre Pilette established a belgian record in the 2 litre class with his Veritas RS 206,422 km
18 October 52
Herman Roosdorp established records with a Veritas Nürburgring.
110,192 Km/h 1 Kilometer standing start
233,009 Km/h 1 Kilometer flying start
232,837 km/h 1 mile flying start

did a Veritas even establish world-records ?

and at last one curiosity
I read in book/paper ( sorry but don't know where) the the Belgian cars were often used to bring coffee into West-Germany (tax free) in the before EU-times. Don't tell this Mr. Eichel.

so long

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#20 uechtel

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 09:40

Originally posted by Adam F
The Hutchison / Poore Veritas was one car (Hutchison and Poore were in racing partnership at this time). It did, it seems, come from Emile Cornet, painted yellow and it still had its Belgian Registration number when it appeared at the Easter 1949 Goodwood meeting.

A second Veritas, also painted yellow, appeared in the UK in August 1949, owned apparently by Buster Baring, but driven largely by Tony Crook. Both this car and the Poore/Hutchison car ran at the September Goodwood meeting.


Adam, I just re-read this old thread and only now I noticed what you wrote here! This is surprising news to me, as to my infomation I have only Poore at Goodwood in September 1949 (finished 5th in the voiturette class). So what information do you have of the Poore/Hutchinson car in that race?

#21 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 10:27

Markus, Adam is right.
17/09/49 Goodwood EVENT 6 September handicap C 5 laps.

n°47 R.D.Poore Veritas 1971cc 0.45 handicap
n°49 A.A.Baring Veritas 1971cc 0.50 handicap

both started, Poore finished second behind G.S.Shillito's Riley (handicap 0.20) Crooke driving Baring's car disappeared on lap 3 with a blocked oil filter.

#22 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 11:11

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Markus, Adam is right.
17/09/49 Goodwood EVENT 6 September handicap C 5 laps.

n°47 R.D.Poore Veritas 1971cc 0.45 handicap
n°49 A.A.Baring Veritas 1971cc 0.50 handicap

both started, Poore finished second behind G.S.Shillito's Riley (handicap 0.20) Crooke driving Baring's car disappeared on lap 3 with a blocked oil filter.


Baring started also at the 1st Blandford Meeting with this car on August 27th. I think this was mentioned elsewere in a thread. Do you know what happend with the cars? Did they go back to Belgium or was one sold to USA ?

#23 corsaresearch

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 12:10

I have found two images of 'Belgian' Veritas in my archives, I thought they could be of interest.

The first image shows Arthur Legat in his single-seater Veritas, probably taken at Chimay.

Sorry about the poor 1952 Liege Rome Liege shot but it is the only one I have on the Vertitas (entered as BMW) of the Belgian team
Meunier/Tock.

Posted Image

Posted Image

#24 uechtel

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 13:47

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Markus, Adam is right.


I never had the slightest doubt.

Thank you for clearing this.


Hugo, I think the Cornet / Hutchinson / Poore car went to America and was used by Ralph Knudson at Watkins Glen 1950. That car has the same sort of air intake.

@corsaresearch: Yes, indeed you first picture shows Legat at the Belhian Grand Prix 1952 and the picture is a better than the one that I have.

And the other picture is also very interesting. Again I did not have knowledge of a Veritas having started in this event.

Is this the same Meunier, who drove the Jicey at Chimay in 1951, 52 and 54?

#25 Adam F

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 16:28

Markus,

Entries for Veritas in the U.K. in 1949 were :-

Hutchison/Poore (Belgian reg 676 780)
18.04 - Goodwood - Lavant Cup - no.20 - Hutchison - R?
22.05 - Prescott - Class 3 - No.27 - Hutchison - 1st
26.05 - Douglas - Manx Cup - No.27 - Hutchison - ?DNA
17.09 - Goodwood - Madgwick Cup & September Handicap - No.47 - Poore - 5th and 2nd

Crook/Baring
18.04 - Goodwood - Easter Handicap - No.34 - Baring - ?
02.07 - Silverstone - VSCC Meeting Event 2 - No.9 - Baring - DNA
27.08 - Blandford - Blandford Trophy - No.23 - Crook or Stoop - 4th (2nd Heat) , NC (12 Laps) (Final)
11.09 - Brighton - Class 3 - No. not known - Crook - 3rd
17.09 - Goodwood - September Handicap - No.49 - Crook - R

Count C de Beaufort
03.09 - Brighton - Class 3 - No.171 - de Beaufort - ?DNA (see Crook above)
11.09 - Prescott - Class 2 & 7 - No.25 - de Beaufort - DNA
24.09 - Shelsley - Class 5 - No.52 - de Beaufort - ?DNA
(I think it is fairly likely that this was the Crook car above)

Motor Sport describes the two cars at September Goodwood as follows :-

"The two yellow Veritas cars of Poore and Crook made a brave show on the line, the former's distinguishable by covers over its recessed headlamps and a headrest for the driver"

As far as I can see at a quick glance, no Veritas were raced in the U.K. in 1950, making it likely that both were temporarily imported (?from Belgium), thus avoiding customs restrictions.

#26 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 23:25

Goodwood 18-04-49:
-Lavant Cup: n°20, from the programme I have Retired written.
From Motor Sport race report: "but the Veritas was impressive only by reason of its colour and its exhaust note and not on account of its speed. It came in after four laps with carburation trouble..."
-Third Easter handicap: n°34 Ecurie Belge, driver A.A.Baring, car Veritas. Nothing in race reports.
For Crook, this car first appearance was at Blandford on 27/08/49.

#27 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 23:38

Hutchinson was also entered in the Manx Cup, Douglas, IoM with n°27 but dna.

#28 uechtel

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 01:20

Adam, thanks for the completion of the statistics.

Originally posted by Adam F
[B]Markus,

Entries for Veritas in the U.K. in 1949 were :-

Hutchison/Poore (Belgian reg 676 780)
18.04 - Goodwood - Lavant Cup - no.20 - Hutchison - R?Kreijci lists a retirement on lap 4 (carburettor)
22.05 - Prescott - Class 3 - No.27 - Hutchison - 1st
26.05 - Douglas - Manx Cup - No.27 - Hutchison - ?DNA
17.09 - Goodwood - Madgwick Cup & September Handicap - No.47 - Poore - 5th and 2nd

Crook/Baring
18.04 - Goodwood - Easter Handicap - No.34 - Baring - ?
02.07 - Silverstone - VSCC Meeting Event 2 - No.9 - Baring - DNA
27.08 - Blandford - Blandford Trophy - No.23 - Crook or Stoop - 4th (2nd Heat) , NC (12 Laps) (Final)
11.09 - Brighton - Class 3 - No. not known - Crook - 3rd
17.09 - Goodwood - September Handicap - No.49 - Crook - R

Count C de Beaufort
03.09 - Brighton - Class 3 - No.171 - de Beaufort - ?DNA (see Crook above)
11.09 - Prescott - Class 2 & 7 - No.25 - de Beaufort - DNA
24.09 - Shelsley - Class 5 - No.52 - de Beaufort - ?DNA
(I think it is fairly likely that this was the Crook car above)

Brighton: 03.09. or 11.09.?
Prescott: 22.05. or 11.09. or both?


Motor Sport describes the two cars at September Goodwood as follows :-

"The two yellow Veritas cars of Poore and Crook made a brave show on the line, the former's distinguishable by covers over its recessed headlamps and a headrest for the driver"

Yes, but that may be enough to distinguish the two cars from each other as long as they were in Britain, it does not help much for later re-identifications in other parts of the world, as those "characteristics" were very common with many other cars. Some cars had even a detachable headrest, which is of course completely usual with the head light covers. As I said what makes the Cornet/Poore/Hutchinson car distinguishable form ALL (at least all I know) other Veritas cars is the unique vertical bar in the air intake

Posted Image

Therefore I think this is the same car, even if it does not have that headrest (anymore):

Posted Image

But I am sure you have much better pictures of that car.

As far as I can see at a quick glance, no Veritas were raced in the U.K. in 1950, making it likely that both were temporarily imported (?from Belgium), thus avoiding customs restrictions.

Again "yes". At Prescott the Hutchinson car had still the Belgian number plate and also the fact that it seems to have remained yellow indicates, that it was at least nominally still under Belgian ownership.

#29 GIGLEUX

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 08:23

Posted Image

Published in Classic and Sports Cars 1989.

#30 uechtel

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 10:18

Jean-Maurice, as usual you come in time to save my day...

So some answers, but also a bundle of new questions

1.) Crook says he used the car in 1950 in UK races, but all I have of him is a "dns" at Blandford on 29.05.1950 in a BMW 328.

2.) The text tells about a FN / BMW driver being killed at Blandford, do you know who that was? Could you or Adam be so kind and do the same work of listing UK entries again for Frazer Nash / BMW 328 drivers?

I know this is much more hard work, therefore I make the start;

19.05.1946 Prescott hillclimb:
#7 Tony Crook - (ukn) result unknown
also a further four BMW in the event, but no names available

01.06.1946? Shelseley Walsh hillclimb:
#? Tony Crook - (ukn)

10.08.1946 Ballyclare FL handicap
#? Leslie Johnson - ret

?.10.1946 Cofton Hackett ?
#28 Tony Crook - (ukn)

?.?.1946 Gransden Lodge ?
#? Tony Crook - 1st

13.07.1947 Gransden FL handicap
#16 Ken Watkins - 9th

21.08.1947 Douglas Manx Cup Voiturette race
#33 Tony Crook - 8th
#35 Hugh Carrington - 10th
#37 T. Gay - dna
#39 Oscar Moore - ret
#41 Gillie Tyrer (BMW Special) - 4th (was that already the Mille Miglia Roadster?)

28.09.1947 Tholtorpe ?
#? Gillie Tyrer (BMW Special) - 1st

25.05.1948 Manx Cup Formula 2 race
#29 Ken Watkins - 8th
#47 Maurice Monnier (Monnier Speciale) - ret
#49 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - dna
#59 Gillie Tyrer (BMW Special) - 2nd

18.09.1948 Goodwood Madgwick Cup F2 race
#37 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - ret

18.04.1949 Goodwood Lavant Cup Voiturette race
#2 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 5th

28.04.1949 St. Helier Jersey Road Race Formula 1 race
#28 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - dnq

26.05.1949 Douglas Manx Cup Voiturette race
#51 Ken Watkins - ret

25.06.1949 Silverstone Maidstone & Mid Kent MC Voiturette race
#? Ken Watkins - 1st

27.08.1949 Blandford Trophy Formula 2 race
#1 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 1st
#9 Jack Newton - 10

27.08.1949 Blandford Trophy Sports Car Race
#19 Tony Crook - (ukn)

17.09.1949 Goodwood Madgwick Cup FL race
#44 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 4th
#62 Ron Willis (Special?) - 2nd

10.04.1950 Goodwood Easter Meeting ?
#14 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 6th

29.05.1950 Blandford Trophy Formula 2 race
#11 Tony Crook - dns
#17 Oliver Simpson (Rover-BMW Special?) - 6th

15.06.1950 Isle of Man British Empire Trophy Formula 2 race
#9 Culpan - 3rd
#14 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 1st

17.06.1950 Silverstone Bugatti Owner´s Club Formula 2 race
#33 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 2nd
#44 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - (ukn)

07.08.1950 Gamston Nottingham Trophy Formula 1 race
#28 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 4th
#51 V. Haslam - (ukn)

02.09.1950 Silverstone ?
#? Ron Willis (LMC Special) - 1st

09.09.1950 Curragh Wakefield Trophy ?
#? Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 3rd

30.09.1950 Goodwood Madgwick Cup Voiturette Race
#29 L. Gillbanks - (ukn)

26.03.1951 Goodwood Lavant Cup Voiturette race
#5 Oscar Moore (OBM Special) - 8th

05.05.1951 Silverstone Daily Express Trophy Sports Car race
#6 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 12th (6th in class)

27.05.1951 Silverstone Maidstone & Mid Kent Voiturette race
#? Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 1st

02.06.1951 Dundrod Ulster Trophy ?
#40 George Clark - dna

21.07.1951 Gamston Rufford Stakes Formula 2 race
#42 Frank Varey - (ukn)
#57 Ron Willis (LMC Special) - 2nd

21.07.1951 Winfield Scottish GP Formula 2 race
#14 Bill Wilkinson - dna
#23 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 2nd (1st in class)

28.07.1951 Croft ?
#43 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 1st

04.08.1951 Ibsley ?
#101 Oliver Simpson (Rover-BMW) - 5th
#104 Ron Willis (LMC SPecial) - (ukn)

06.08.1951 Gamston Percy Andrews Trophy ?
#? Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 2nd

11.08.1951 Boreham Daily Mail Trophy Formula 2 race
#63 Ron Willis (LMC Special) - dna
#79 Bill Dobson - ret

08.09.1951 Curragh Wakefield Trophy FL race
#? Bill Dobson - 18th

29.09.1951 Goodwood September Meeting ?
#? Oliver Simpson (Rover-BMW) - 6th

13.10.1951 Winfield FL race
#30 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 4th

03.05.1952 Snetterton Aston Martin Owner´s Club Formula 2 race
#41 Charles Bulmer (LMC Special) - 5th

01.06.1952 Snetterton 500 cc Car Club Formula 2 race
#78 Ron Willis (LMC Special) - 2nd or 6th?

01.06.1952 Silverstone ?
#75 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 3rd

21.06.1952 Boreham West Essex CC Formula 2 race
#26 Charles Bulmer (LMC Special) - 5th

13.07.1952 Wicklow Leinster Trophy ?
#7 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - (ukn)

02.08.1952 Silverstone Daily Mail Trophy FL race
#36 Ron Willis (LMC Special) - ret

11.10.1952 Silverstone ?
#72 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 6th

27.06.1953 Snetterton West Essex CC Formula 2 race
#14 Frank Copeland (BMW 328 Mille Miglia?) - dna

27.06.1953 Silverstone Midlands MECC Formula 2 race
#? Alec McMillan (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - 4th

08.08.1953 Oulton Park Mid Cheshire MC Formula 2 race
#41 Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - dna

12.09.1953 Wakefield Curragh Trophy FL race
#? Gillie Tyrer (BMW 328 Mille Miglia) - (ukn)

02.10.1953 Castle Combe Joe Fry Memorial Trophy Formula 2 race
#41 Ron Searles (Rover-BMW) - ret

Sources: Sheldon, Kreijci and whatever I have found else

Also during this search I found some further Veritas entries in the UK:

01.06.1952 Snetterton:
#79 Bobby Pattenden (Veritas-Alta!) - (ukn)

09.05.1953 Silverstone International Trophy Formula 2 race
#43 Georges de Kando (Veritas RS) - (ukn)

16.05.1953 Dundrod Ulster Trophy Formula 2 race
#29 Georges des Kando (Veritas RS) - dna

26.09.1953 Goodwood Madgwick Cup Formula 2 race
#6 Willi Stürzebecher (Veritas Meteor) - (ukn)

01.08.1955 Brands Hatch Sports Car race
#8 Ray Mallock (Veritas RS) - (dna)


So is the "gentleman from Lancashire" one of these drivers (Stürzebecher of course excluded)?

Also that "Veritas-Alta" sounds interesting. DOes anybody know more of that?

And finally two very much "phantom persons", de Kando and Stürzebecher. Both appear quite often in my records with entries, but in case of de Kando I have not found a single result on him neither do I have any idea if what car he had used and if it was his own car.

#31 alessandro silva

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 12:12

Markus I am adding to your list:

Originally posted by uechtel


19.05.1946 Prescott hillclimb:
#7 Tony Crook -
58"2
also a further four BMW in the event, but no names available: HERE
D. Flather BMW 57"1 , 3rd in class sportcars 1.5 to 3L, 2nd overall in handicap
G.Claridge BMW 56"8
G. Tyrer BMW 58"5
G. Crossley BMW 59"25

01.06.1946? Shelseley Walsh hillclimb:
#? Tony Crook - (ukn) failed to qualify 50"16, Tyrer failed to qualify 52.67 O.B. Moore failed to qualify 52.05
Leslie Johson 6th in class (2L) 48.94 G.Crossley qualified in 49.61 but does not appear to have finished the race

10.08.1946 Ballyclare FL handicap
#? Leslie Johnson - ret

?.10.1946 Cofton Hackett ?
#28 Tony Crook - 2nd in 32.6. OB Moore 1st 30.8


15.6.1946 Gransden Lodge
Tony Crook - 1st, G. Crossley 2nd, G. Crozier 3rd all BMW [I might have more somewhere else]

Prescott July 28th 1946
Sports car up to 3L
Johnson 54.52, 2nd Crossley 55.67 3th Flather 56.65

Brighton Sept 7 1946
O.B. Moore 2nd in class

West Couert Sept 15 1946
1,5 to 3L class
1. Moore 24.18 2. R. Way 24.86 3. A.A. Baring 25.36

Prescott International
Crook 3rd in class 55"49

Hordean up to 2L
1. R. way 21"8 2. Miss B. Haig 22.3

A LOT MORE TO COME BUT IT IS A BIG JOB, MARKUS!!

#32 GIGLEUX

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 14:41

Gordon C.Woods died in hospital from the results of the injuries he sustained in event 3 of the 1949 Blandford Road Race Meeting. His 328 BMW slid into the outer bank approaching Hood corner, ran along it, shot across the road and demolished a bus shelter; the driver was thrown out.

#33 ReWind

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 14:49

Originally posted by uechtel
The text tells about a FN / BMW driver being killed at Blandford, do you know who that was?

Sheldon mentions "only" one fatality, in a sports car race. According to Martin Krejci - go to 1949, round 33 - it was a guy called Gordon. Should be the same man as in Jean-Maurice's post.

How many races were held that day at Blandford? More than just 2 sports car races and 1 F2 race?

#34 GIGLEUX

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 15:25

Originally posted by ReWind
Sheldon mentions "only" one fatality, in a sports car race. According to Martin Krejci - go to 1949, round 33 - it was a guy called Gordon. Should be the same man as in Jean-Maurice's post.

How many races were held that day at Blandford? More than just 2 sports car races and 1 F2 race?

From official racing results sheets: G.C.Woods.
From Motor Sport: Gordon Woods.
9 races at Blandford that day:
-U/s sports cars up to 1100cc
-First heat racing cars up to 500cc
-U/s sports cars 1101-1500cc
-U/s sports cars 1501-2000cc
-First heat Blandford Trophy race
-Second heat racing cars up to 500cc
-Second heat Blandford Trophy race
-Final racing cars up to 500cc
-Final Blandford Trophy race

#35 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 15:40

Originally posted by corsaresearch

Sorry about the poor 1952 Liege Rome Liege shot but it is the only one I have on the Vertitas (entered as BMW) of the Belgian team
Meunier/Tock.
Posted Image


1952 Meunier was placed 2nd in class with a Veritas at the Col de Bayard Hillclimb on Aug. 17th. Masuy started at Chimay with a dark (Blue/black) car and a similar hood, buwithout this big windshield. Same car ?
Posted Image
from the book 100 ans de Sport Automobiles Belge

#36 Adam F

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 16:27

Markus,

The Brighton date should be 03 09 49
Yes, the two Prescott dates are correct.

I have now studied my 1950 programmes, and I can confirm that no Veritas appears in the entry for any U.K. meeting (or those for which I have a programme).
This is in spite of what Tony Crook says.

#37 RAP

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 19:16

Brighton Speed Trial 3/9/49
Class 3 Sports 1501-2000cc car no. 168 T A D Crook shown in programme as BMW but my copy has been altered to Veritas
171 Count de Beaufort Veritas 1971cc marked as non starter

"18.04 - Goodwood - Easter Handicap - No.34 - Baring - ?" - yes, a non starter per Robert Barker's Record of Motor Racing at Goodwood ( which is much based on official BARC records )
Like Adam, my programmes for Shelsley and Prescott have de Beaufort as non starter

RAP

#38 uechtel

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 20:56

Thank you all for your assistance!

@Alessandro,

19.05.1946 Prescott hillclimb:
#7 Tony Crook -
58"2
also a further four BMW in the event, but no names available: HERE
D. Flather BMW 57"1 , 3rd in class sportcars 1.5 to 3L, 2nd overall in handicap
G.Claridge BMW 56"8
G. Tyrer BMW 58"5
G. Crossley BMW 59"25


do you have also the final results (positions)?

01.06.1946? Shelseley Walsh hillclimb:
#? Tony Crook - (ukn) failed to qualify 50"16, Tyrer failed to qualify 52.67 O.B. Moore failed to qualify 52.05
Leslie Johson 6th in class (2L) 48.94 G.Crossley qualified in 49.61 but does not appear to have finished the race


A "did not qualify" in a hillclimb? What was the format of this event?

A LOT MORE TO COME BUT IT IS A BIG JOB, MARKUS!!


I am afraid it is. But you´d do me a great favour with that and you can be sure that the information will be in good hands.  ;)

@Jean-Maurice: "Event 3" at Blandford - what class? From your list it would be sports cars up to 1.5 litre, but then it can´t be a BMW 328. Maybe a Frazer Nash version of the 315/1? Or were there combined classes?

@Hugo: Hard to say whether it is identical to the Masuy car (#48 in your picture). Unfortunately radiator and headlights are not visible, so it is hard to make a proper cross-check. I am afraid the Belgian Veritas cars still need more diligent research.

#39 alessandro silva

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 21:19

19.05.1946 Prescott hillclimb:
Claridge fifth overall in sportscars

01.06.1946 Shelseley Walsh hillclimb:
Yes a qualification run in the morning.

More about 1946
Bouley Bay Oct. 17
1.5L class
1.Willis 64.9
2L class
1. O.B. Moore 61.3 [3rd overall sports cars]
3. Miss B. Haig 64.6 [6th overall sports cars]

July 20
Naish House hill-climb
2L class
1. R. Way 52"4

Shelseley June 1st
L. Johnson second overall in sports cars

Prescott june 23rd (B.O.C.)
2L
3. L. Johnson 53.30
1.5
3. Willis 62.50

Johnson fifth overall in sportscars

Bo'ness Sept. 7th
Murray-Frame 4th overall 42.7


Enough for today

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#40 GIGLEUX

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 21:19

The 1500 and 2-liter five-lap sports car races were run together.

#41 RAP

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 10:33

uechtel
Have you looked at www.wsrp.cz? If you go to British National, British International and Formula Libre there are lots of BMW and Frazer Nash in the results.

#42 alessandro silva

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 16:43

1947 BMWs in the UK

May 11 Prescott
1.5/3L sportscar class
2. G. Tyrer 53.81
1.5L sportscar class
2. G. Claridge 53.98

? May Bo’ness
2L sports
1. Tyrer 43.3
2.
? June Prescott (BOC)
2L sport
3. G. Tyrer 53.48
4. D. Prosser 54.69

July 20th Prescott
3L sports
1. G. Tyrer 4th overall sports cars 50.81
2. Crook 52.28
3. O. B. Moore 53.40
1.5L sports
2. Willis 54.36

? August Bouley Bay
1.5L sports
3. Willis
2L sports
1. Tyrer 65.8
2. O.B. Moore 66.5

August 30 Prescott
2L sports
1. Crook 52.47 [2nd overall sports cars]

Sept. 8 Brighton
R. Way
? Sept Brighton
2L sports
1. Way [6th overall sports cars]
2. Crook
5. Moore, 7. Stirling Moss, 8. Claridge
Over 2L sports
3. Crook, also ran: Moore S. Moss Carrington
Lady drivers sports
1. Miss B. Haig

Sept 6. Poole
2L sports
1. Crook 42.06 3. Miss Haig 43.97
3l sports and 1.5L s/c
1. Crook 43.10
Sept 14 Prescott International
3L sports
1. Tyrer 53.41 2. Crook 54.14 3. Moore 55.35

Sept 20 Merston (South Sea)
Sports 2.5L
1. Way [5th overall sports cars] 32.25
2. Crook [6th overall sports cars] 32.36
Sports unlimited
1. Crook 32.36

Sept 20 Bo’ness
2L sports
1, tie G. Tyrer, Hamish Weir 44.6

13.07.1947 Gransden FL handicap NO FL – “All-comers handicap”
#16 Ken Watkins - 9th

21.08.1947 Douglas Manx Cup Voiturette race
#33 Tony Crook - 8th
#35 Hugh Carrington - 10th
#37 T. Gay – dna
#39 Oscar Moore – re
#41 Gillie Tyrer (BMW Special) - 4th (was that already the Mille Miglia Roadster?) NO. And NO special. Just an un-winged 328

28.09.1947 Tholtorpe ?
#? Gillie Tyrer (BMW Special) - 1st

#43 RAP

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 18:50

Hope you find the following useful list of BMW entries (all 1971cc)
7 Sept 1946 Brighton Speed Trials
Class 6 Unsupercharged Standard Sports over 1500cc
96 G Wilkins Frazer Nash no time - presume non starter
102 M J Lipsey Frazer Nash BMW 36.26sec 8th
129 O Moore BMW 328 34.11 2nd
Class 9 Supercharged Standard Sports Unlimited
102 M J Lipsey Frazer Nash BMW 36.28 7th (I presume he did not get a second run and that class 6 run time was used) and No its not supercharged!!!
Class 17 Racing 2000cc
14 T A D CRook Frazer Nash BMW no time - presume non starter

1 Sept 1947 Brighton Speed Trials
Class 3 Standard Sports 2000cc
138 T A D CRook Frazer Nash BMW 65.30mph 2nd
140 Stirling Moss BMW 328 59.26mph 7th
164 G D Claridge BMW 57.53mph 9th
151 O Moore BMW 59.81mph 6th
165 R WAy BMW 66.26mph 1st
156 H M F Carrington BMW 58.25mph 8th
Class 4 Standard Sports over 2000cc
138 T A D CRook Frazer Nash BMW 65.97mph 3rd
140 Stirling Moss BMW 328 60.13mph 22ndEqual
151 O Moore BMW 60.44mph 21st
156 H M F Carrington BMW 60.13mph 22nd equal
Class 5 Ladies Standard Sports
123 Betty Haig BMW 61.08mph 1st

4 Sept 1948 Brighton Spped Trials
Class 3 Standard Sports 2000cc
140 R Way BMW 32.39sec 1st
141 Betty Haig BMW 35.39 3rd
143 T A D CRook Frazer Nash BMW 33.20sec 2nd

3 Sept 1949 Brighton Spped Trials
Class 3 Standard Sports 2000cc
147 G Tyrer BMW 31.68sec 2nd
148 T A D Crook BMW 32.20 3rd
171 Count de Beaufort Veritas non starter
172 Raymond Way BMW 31.15 1st
173 G C Woods BMW non starter
174 R F Peacock BMW non starter
175 G E Peskett BMW 35.67 4th

2 Sept 1950 Brighton Spped Trials
Class 3 Sports 2000cc
157 L Gillbanks BMW 328 33.00sec 2nd
156 G Tyrer BMW Mille Miglia 1996cc 30.11 1st
149 A A Baring Frazer Nash non start
148 J A Young Frazer Nash BMW non start
147 R F Peacock BMW 328 33.18 3rd
146 O Moore OBM non start
145 E L Taylor Bristol saloon 39.23 7th

1 Sept 1951 Brighton Speed Trials
Class 3 Sports 2000cc
156 L Gillbanks BMW 37.0 5th
155 H Kemp-Place Frazer Nash 32.81 2nd
153 Syd Greene Frazer Nash 32.26 1st
Class 12 Formula 2
34 T A D Crook Frazer Nash 32.45 1st

6 Sept 1952 Brighton Speed Trial
Class 3 Sports 2500cc
136 D Hely Frazer Nash 32.20 3rd
134 J Beckwith-Smith Frazer Nash BMW ?non start
133 R W Jacobs Frazer Nash (entrant S Greene) 30.07 1st

5 Sept 1953 Brighton Spped Triald
Class 4 Sports 2500cc
183 M Mostyn Frazer Nash 31.34 4th
182 S Greene Frazer Nash 31.60 5th
180 D Hely Frazer Nash 30.90 2nd
179 B Wyatt Frazer Nash 29.20 1st
178 F B Copeland Frazer Nash 31.00 3rd
174 G B Terry Frazer Nash non start
Class 16 Ladies
7 Mrs P Copeland Frazer Nash 37.70 9th

4 Sept 1954 Brighton Speed Trials
Class 3 Sports 2500cc
177 Dudley Hely Frazer Nash 32.72 4th
169 R E Wright Frazer Nash 33.71 5th
167 B Wyatt Frazer Nash non start

1955 non entered

#44 uechtel

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 23:24

Originally posted by RAP
uechtel
Have you looked at www.wsrp.cz? If you go to British National, British International and Formula Libre there are lots of BMW and Frazer Nash in the results.


Of course I have made a visit there, most of my information is based on that. But it seems that I missed the updates.

Thanks you all for your efforts, this is fantastic.

#45 uechtel

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 21:35

Originally posted by RAP
Hope you find the following useful list of BMW entries (all 1971cc)


VERY useful!

3 Sept 1949 Brighton Spped Trials
Class 3 Standard Sports 2000cc
147 G Tyrer BMW 31.68sec 2nd
148 T A D Crook BMW 32.20 3rd
171 Count de Beaufort Veritas non starter
172 Raymond Way BMW 31.15 1st
173 G C Woods BMW non starter
174 R F Peacock BMW non starter
175 G E Peskett BMW 35.67 4th



Meanwhile the third date! So what is correct, 1.9., 3.9. or 8.9.???

And for Crook I assume the BMW entry, but as Alessandro says the 3rd place was achieved with the Veritas No. 168?

2 Sept 1950 Brighton Spped Trials
Class 3 Sports 2000cc
157 L Gillbanks BMW 328 33.00sec 2nd
156 G Tyrer BMW Mille Miglia 1996cc 30.11 1st
149 A A Baring Frazer Nash non start
148 J A Young Frazer Nash BMW non start
147 R F Peacock BMW 328 33.18 3rd
146 O Moore OBM non start
145 E L Taylor Bristol saloon 39.23 7th


With "Frazer Nash" I assume you always mean British-built post-war cars like the "High Speed" or the "Le Mans Replica" models, correct? Means the imported cars are "Frazer Nash BMW"?

#46 RAP

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 08:31

Meanwhile the third date! So what is correct, 1.9., 3.9. or 8.9.???


3 Sept 1949 is correct , as Adam F said. I have programme in front of me


And for Crook I assume the BMW entry, but as Alessandro says the 3rd place was achieved with the Veritas No. 168?


THe programme says BMW. I should have added that my programme has a pencil alteration to Veritas - sorry.

With "Frazer Nash" I assume you always mean British-built post-war cars like the "High Speed" or the "Le Mans Replica" models, correct? Means the imported cars are "Frazer Nash BMW"?


I have reproduced what the programme says. The description will depend on what the entrant put on the entry form and the programme compilier's interpretation of the "correct" form - and this was probably a differnt person in some years. I would say that "Frazer Nash" means one of the British built cars but the use of "BMW" or "Frazer Nash BMW" is probably not significant. As I understand it Frazer Nash built cars did not get to private owners much before 1950. In the 1940's Crook had the ex-Jill Thomas BMW 328 85.270 then in 1950 he got the ex-works FN High Speed 006 then in 1952 a new Le Mans 170.

#47 uechtel

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Posted 07 January 2005 - 20:01

Unfortunately this interesting thread has fallen asleep a little bit.

But this week I received three pictures - perhaps somebody can help to identify:

#1 Posted Image

The information I received about this says that Way bought the car around 1946 and had it converted into this special. In 1950 sold to Tyrer, who installed a supercharged 1.5 litre Cisitalia engine.

But didn´t Tyrer drive the "Frazer Nash" Mille Miglia then?


#2 Posted Image

Tony Crook in his Frazer Nash, but I don´t know the venue


#3 Posted Image

Another Frazer Nash, the writer says license number GML 185, but nothing else. Sorry, no better picture either.

#48 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 January 2005 - 23:00

Just a guess, based on one visit thirty-plus years ago, but could picture 2 be at Great Auclum?

No 3: looks like a beach. Southport? Or possibly Pendine?

#49 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 16:32

According to DSJ in "From Chaindrive to Turbocharger" this number was allocated to Chassis #85.114 delivered Oct 37 to D.G.Flather from Sheffield. Gives this someone a clou ?

#50 Marc Ceulemans

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 22:26

Picture 1 shows Raymond Way in the 1947 Merston Speed Trials. He won his class - Sports cars up to 2,500 cc and was 2nd fastest us/c Sports car in a very big fields.

The car, a Type 328 Frazer Nash - BMW, was purchased from H. R. Owen in June 1946, and registration plate, as we can see (??), was KHX173.

Information taken from AUTOCAR, 12 November 1948.