137 replies to this topic

[dbw]

can someone tell me just when in the auto union history the swastika image appeared on the panel below the drivers elbow?..with the seeming explosion of real,semi-real and outright remanufactures of none appear to have period markings....is this just pc-ness or were the original markings only added for certain races?...[my guess is that the numbers changed between races but the swastikas were painted on...do i recall a record car similarly marked?]..just wondering...

[Ron Scoma]

Originally posted by dbw
can someone tell me just when in the auto union history the swastika image appeared on the panel below the drivers elbow?..with the seeming explosion of real,semi-real and outright remanufactures of none appear to have period markings....is this just pc-ness or were the original markings only added for certain races?...[my guess is that the numbers changed between races but the swastikas were painted on...do i recall a record car similarly marked?]..just wondering...

Well... I can't tell you a date when the Swastika appeared on the cars but I believe it is illegal to display it today in Germany and maybe France. There was a big flap on eBay and Yahoo auctions over that a year or so ago.
Not to mention that it's not, perhaps, the public relations image a company wants to project.


Ron
"you know you spent too much time in Berkeley when you see a sign that says "Free Firewood" and you immediately want to know who he is and what's he in for...

[Ray Bell]

Which swastika is that?

[dbw]

ok,ok...so they weren't on all cars .but they were on some!!!!

now..here's the thought,why,when restoring vintage military aircraft,no expence is too much to document a specific planes "point in time" markings----crosses,swastikas,red discs..you name it..even the cockpit side legend of number of raids and kills...i have to assume mitibushi is still in business..as is boeing for that matter.they must have an interest in this activity..yet it persists unfettered..
military vehicles get the same treatment tho their markings were a bit more regulated by the layers of buracracy...ford and gmc don't seem to care..they even encourage it as their "heritage"
loti powered by ford wore it proudly on their panels...as did gt40's..great pain is taken to duplicate these images on the cars in the proper spot in the authentic colors...
can it be that hot a topic??does a bear **** in the woods?
commemts please.

[Ray Bell]

I could see no swastikas in all the pics I have on file... but that doesn't mean they aren't there. I simply posted the one that most plainly didn't have one.

Here are the others so you can see what I mean...









The record car is too unclear to post... but I agree with you, if you're making a car original, being 'politically correct' is out of the question.

[Ray Bell]

From the same source, some motorcycles of the time...



No swastikas here either, though there was some on the official party, I'd say...

[JtP]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I could see no swastikas in all the pics I have on file... but that doesn't mean they aren't there. I simply posted the one that most plainly didn't have one.

Here are the others so you can see what I mean...



The record car is too unclear to post... but I agree with you, if you're making a car original, being 'politically correct' is out of the question.

Ray, the photos shown with swastikas and I will believe you they are there, but not really discernable on my screen. All these photos are taken at the Nurburgring or inside the Riech and that is the point. What has to be shown or it is politically correct to display inside the Riech may well be not acceptable outside. The 3rd Riech was not a place to be politically incorrect.

The photos are also very early (34?) before the true realities of the 3rd Riech were fully known or even established. So it may be that the cars recieved government funding and thus displayed goverment symbols. At the time there would be no problem of displaying swastikas, afterall Germany held the 36 Olympic games, Tokyo was next in 40.

As for displaying swastikas today, Airfix kits were not supplied with swastikas in their transfer sets as the kits could not be sold in many European countries if they did.

[uechtel]

I think it has been obligatory in the Avus races. (sorry, no picture found)

Also I think the swastikas were there at the Vanderbilt Cup race:
http://www.atlasf1.c...hlight=swastika

here's the thought,why,when restoring vintage military aircraft,no expence is too much to document a specific planes "point in time" markings----crosses,swastikas,red discs..you name it..

dbw, I think you missed a pont here. The problem is not, that the swastikas were the national markings AND the emblem of the nazi party. And there are still too much people around searching for some "legal" way to present those in front of a public audience again to allow showing them "for pure historical" reasons. I hope you understand...

[Brun]

I think they appeared around '37 or '38. The swastika's were on the streamliners, that I'm sure of. I saw a picture where the car had it painted on the dome behind the driver's head.

In many European countries, this symbol is now outlawed. So it's not just political correctness to keep them from the cars, but also a legal issue. Personally, I feel that it's right, too. A swastika on a historical car, plane or boat is just, well, too much. There's no need to offend anyone by displaying such symbols just to be historically correct.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Brun
I think they appeared around '37 or '38. The swastika's were on the streamliners, that I'm sure of. I saw a picture where the car had it painted on the dome behind the driver's head.

In many European countries, this symbol is now outlawed. So it's not just political correctness to keep them from the cars, but also a legal issue. Personally, I feel that it's right, too. A swastika on a historical car, plane or boat is just, well, too much. There's no need to offend anyone by displaying such symbols just to be historically correct.

I'd go along with this (albeit reluctantly) provided that the Hammer & Sickle is banned too.

PdeRL

[Vitesse2]

Rosemeyer's late 1936 record car had a swastika on the tail, as did the one he was killed in in January 1938. (It carried the swastika in November 1937 too.) Caracciola's 1938 Mercedes record car had one as well.

In the 1937 AVUS race, there was a swastika on the three Mercedes streamliners, but not Rosemeyer's AU.

All from picture evidence in Racing the Silver Arrows and Auto Union Album.

[Patrice L'Rodent]

Quote Brun: Personally, I feel that it's right, too. A swastika on a historical car, plane or boat is just, well, too much.


I know its slightly off topic, but knowing many on here also like warbirds, what do you think about painting 'victory markings' on restored 'planes ? Especially planes with no real history, or hybrids, painted up to represent some significant aircraft.
At the time, these victory markings were probably a good thing for morale and keeping the public spirit up, but now over half a century later I think they are decidedly 'naff'
Comments?
Pat D'Rat

[dbw]

i respect all your feelings....however every museum with warbirds i've been to[many,tho i really enjoy pre ww1 stuff] the planes are always properly marked...a zero in new zealand...a stuka in seattle,a fokker in london...the smithsonian had their "battle of britain" display at the air and space ...the best collection that pulled no historical punches was the national war museum in tokyo[can't remember the name but it was ajacent to the shrine to the 47 ronin]...
and, yes, the cars weren't military vehicles, but they certainly were political tools..history is history and shouldn't be subject to revisionism..[off soapbox]besides if an adler with period markings was displayed in the corner of a small dusty museum,i don't think anyone would care...but mb or audi? well that's another story.

ok..now that i've said that..what about the enola gay??? you could park 20 gleamingly polished B-29's in a row [assuming you could find them] and people would pay to see them....paint "enola gay" on the nose of one and it is quietly removed.

while i'm on the smithsonian theme,tho they caved on the enola gay business,they still seem to be the gold standard for historical accuracy..swastikas,meatballs,and confederate images[a hot topic in the states]and the objects they adorn,are displayed openly..and presented in context with no apologies...

[Eric McLoughlin]

Most restored warbird aircraft are usually painted in their original colours or in the colours of a famous pilot of the same type of aircraft. For historical accuracy therefore, the full markings should be applied. At the moment there is not a single airworthy genuine World War 2 Luftwaffe aircraft. The most recent was the Messerschmitt Bf109G "Black 6" which unfortunately finished its flying career upside down in a field adjacent to the M11 motorway. The plane has now been restored for static exhibition at the RAF Museum Hendon. It carries its full Luftwaffe desert camouflage colours and all the correct markings, including the Swastika on the tail.

The Auto Union and Mercedes streamilners often sported the Nazi Flag or Swastika in a roundel on the headrest, as did many German civilian prestige transport vehicles of that era (The Graf Zeppelin and Hindenburg airships for example).

The difficulty of obtaining Swatikas for model making has been around for over three decades. About thirty years ago, model manufacturers began deleting the Swastikas from their decal sheets (there were some exceptions - Hasegawa for instance). Obviously, it makes building a truly accurate replica of the original aircraft i"straight from the box" mpossible. There are now a number of "Swastika only" after market decal sheets available to plug this gap.

Don't forget that the Swastika was not the preserve of the Nazi party. The Finnish Air Force symbol was a turquoise swastika on a white background and the old Latvian Air Force symbol was a red swastika. There was also a laundry in Dublin called The Swastika Laundry. They used to show a plaque on their premises outlining the long established historical and mythical attributes of the symbol which goes back thousands of years.

[biercemountain]

Model companies not only omit swastikas from the markings on their kits, they also omit the Marlboro markings (and other cigarette brands) from most F1 models!

Being an avid modeler I can understand that someone might be a tad bit put-off by my model of the Bismark which sports a rather large swastika on the bow. With this in mind I moved the model to a place in my house where it's less likely to be noticed.

On the other hand, I can't imagine a guest becoming outraged by the sight of a McLaren M23 sporting it's authentic Marlboro livery!

"Come Charles, let's go! I just can't stay another minute with that awful cigarette logo staring at me"

[Brun]

Well, errr, I don't know, I still think there's a difference.

Warplanes were built for just that - fighting war. Everyone knows that. I can see the point of people saying that if you want to preserve its historical value, you should paint all period markings on it. Including the swastika. Still, I can also understand that some people might be offended or forced to relive a painful memory when one of these historical planes roars over their heads, Nazi symbolism in full display on its tail.

But we're talking about racecars. And the swastikas on racecars were there for propaganda purposes only. Also, not every car had one and it wasn't there on every occassion. So it wouldn't be at all historically wrong to run it without this symbol. In this case, I tend to lean to political correctness and refrain from using the swastika.

[dmj]

Originally posted by biercemountain
Model companies not only omit swastikas from the markings on their kits, they also omit the Marlboro markings (and other cigarette brands) from most F1 models!

Being an avid modeler I can understand that someone might be a tad bit put-off by my model of the Bismark which sports a rather large swastika on the bow. With this in mind I moved the model to a place in my house where it's less likely to be noticed.

On the other hand, I can't imagine a guest becoming outraged by the sight of a McLaren M23 sporting it's authentic Marlboro livery!

"Come Charles, let's go! I just can't stay another minute with that awful cigarette logo staring at me"

Can't remember where I had read it but I remember reading that anyone under age of 18 (or 21?) in USA can't legally buy a modelcar if there is tobacco advertising on it! I don't know if it is law only in some states or in whole country but certainly it is too much...

[Brun]

Originally posted by dmj

Can't remember where I had read it but I remember reading that anyone under age of 18 (or 21?) in USA can't legally buy a modelcar if there is tobacco advertising on it! I don't know if it is law only in some states or in whole country but certainly it is too much...

Ha! We Dutch can top that.

Under new legislature, smoking in any public place in The Netherlands is illegal. Bars are amongst those public places to which this law applies. As do Amsterdam's famous coffeeshops.

So the new situation will be that you can legally buy marihuana in a coffeeshop, but the police may fine you if you smoke it there. Not because it's a drug, but because smoking in general is illegal.


Now that's insane

[Eric McLoughlin]

The ciggie logo ban on models is also a nusiance. However, it is mainly aimed at models that can also be sold as "toys". Again, like the Swastika situation, after market decal manufacturers can supply the necessary lettering.

[Schummy]

Political correctness (or social dirigism) never ceases to surprise me

[Ron Scoma]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Don't forget that the Swastika was not the preserve of the Nazi party.

It was also used by American Indians, or should I say Native Americans, at times.
I have a few pics of houses, built in the teens and twenties, that show the Swastika decoration in brick.
Some famous public buildings in Chicago also sport the motif.
Kind Regards,

Ron

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Ron Scoma


It was also used by American Indians, or should I say Native Americans, at times.
I have a few pics of houses, built in the teens and twenties, that show the Swastika decoration in brick.
Some famous public buildings in Chicago also sport the motif.
Kind Regards,

Ron

There was also the right-handed rather than the widdershins (i.e. anti-clockwise) version, an ancient symbol from India.

And as for Red Indians, well John Wayne, Barry Goldwater and Dwight D. Eisenhower were also "native Americans".

PdeRL

[biercemountain]

I wonder if Hitler took a personal interest in the pre-war racing machinery we're talking about. I've read he had a keen interest in technology and often suprised his Admirals and Generals with his understanding of various weapon systems, some quite sophisticated (such as battleships).

I can see this fascination spilling over into race cars but I've never personally read about it. Anyone have any info?

[Rob29]

I think the only race that Hitler attended was the 1937 Avusrennen,which was the reason for the Swastikas.

[Tim Murray]

IIRC the swastika was the logo of Danish brewers Carlsberg in the early part of the last century. Presumably they dropped it pretty rapidly when the Nazi party rose to prominence in Germany.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Rob29
I think the only race that Hitler attended was the 1937 Avusrennen,which was the reason for the Swastikas.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Rosemeyer's late 1936 record car had a swastika on the tail, as did the one he was killed in in January 1938. (It carried the swastika in November 1937 too.) Caracciola's 1938 Mercedes record car had one as well.

In the 1937 AVUS race, there was a swastika on the three Mercedes streamliners, but not Rosemeyer's AU.

All from picture evidence in Racing the Silver Arrows and Auto Union Album.

Whilst I find some of the contributions to this thread really fascinating, as they are pointing out facts extremelly unknown to me, I do not think we have been able to establish yet the reason for the presence / absence of the symbol on the cars, so the when-where-why so to speak...although as we have experienced over the last years, that last part might prove pretty impossible to establish.

[Eric McLoughlin]

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the symbol of the Nazi party/National Flag was painted on many vehicles and aircraft in that period. From about 1934, ALL Lufthansa airliners carried the red flag, white disk and Swastika on their tailfins. There was nothing particularly odd about this. The party flag had become the national flag and many European airliners carried their countries' flags on the tailfins (some still do, noteably Switzerland and Austria). Prestige projects, such as the giant airships also carried the Nazi flag emplem on their tailfin - although the main man at Zeppelin, Dr Hugo Eckener, was not happy about this. It would not have been unusual to have the National Flag put on theAuto Unions and Mercedes cars, especially when undertaking record breaking attempts, because of the national honour which would accrue to Germany if they were succesful. After all, nearly all the British Land Speed Record cars of the era carried the Union Flag somewhere on their bodywork.

[Ray Bell]

Does Alitalia also still carry the national flag's colours on the tails of its aircraft?

I remember when David McKay sometimes referred to the airline he was using in this way...

[Patrice L'Rodent]

Hi all,
I think I may have been misunderstood in my post about warbirds. I have no difficulty at all with a warbird being presented in the paint scheme in which it flew, be that Swastikas, Roundals, Stars and Bars or Hinomarus. My objection is to the 'counting coup' o victory scores on the cockpit side. Listing the victories of a particular pilot in a particular aircraft. I can accept an original preserved example, but I choke a bit at garish 'kill' markings on the side of a post war Spitfire that spent its entire career as a trainer in the Irish Air Force, for instance, and was never even fitted with guns.
Pat D'Rat

[Eric McLoughlin]

No such thing as the Irish Air Force - it's the Irish Army Air Corps, or, to be even more correct, Aer Coir d'Eireann. They did operate two seat Spitfires which were not new build aircraft but converted Mk IX airframes. Theoretically, some of them may have had combat records.

Regarding Alitalia, in 1970 the airline changed to its current scheme (it's one of the oldest unchanged schemes currently in use) which consists of a thick dark green cheat line which sweeps up to form the outer section of a letter "A" on the tailfin. Inserted into the outline on the fin is a dark red solid triangle (forming the centre of the "A"). So, although the national colours are worn predominantly, the national flag is not. Iberia carries a narrow Spanish flag at the top of their tailfins too.

[biercemountain]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Whilst I find some of the contributions to this thread really fascinating, as they are pointing out facts extremelly unknown to me, I do not think we have been able to establish yet the reason for the presence / absence of the symbol on the cars, so the when-where-why so to speak...although as we have experienced over the last years, that last part might prove pretty impossible to establish.

Here's the way I see it. If the cars had carried swastikas as a ongoing and permanent part of their livery I could understand including it for historical accuracy. Since they seem to have only featured them sporadically and inconsistently I say leaving them off is historically accurate as well.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
No such thing as the Irish Air Force - it's the Irish Army Air Corps, or, to be even more correct, Aer Coir d'Eireann. They did operate two seat Spitfires which were not new build aircraft but converted Mk IX airframes. Theoretically, some of them may have had combat records.

My favouite Spitfire ML407,has a book devoted to it. Started life with 2ndTAF 1944. Sold to Irish Air Corps 30 July 1951,sold back to England 4 Mar 68. Now owned & flown by Carolyn Grace.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

IIRC, the swastikas carried on the Mercs and A-U's at the Vanderbilt Cup races on Long Island were applied at the request of the event organizers. I have no idea why they were otherwise applied at other events.

[Eric McLoughlin]

The Irish Air Corps flew two seat Spitfires and single seat Seafires, complete with arrestor gear! The seciond seat on the Irish Spits was under a second bubble canopy. Although Carolyn Grace's Spitfire is an ex - IAAC two seat Spit, her second canopy is much lower than the one worn in its days in Ireland.

The only other two seat Spit was written off three years ago in a fatal crash at Goodwood.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Schummy
Political correctness (or social dirigism) never ceases to surprise me

Unless you are on the other side of the equation....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
IIRC, the swastikas carried on the Mercs and A-U's at the Vanderbilt Cup races on Long Island were applied at the request of the event organizers. I have no idea why they were otherwise applied at other events.

Perhaps a throwback to the Gordon Bennett days?

Putting a nationalistic tone into the event...

[dolomite]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
As I pointed out in an earlier post, the symbol of the Nazi party/National Flag was painted on many vehicles and aircraft in that period. From about 1934, ALL Lufthansa airliners carried the red flag, white disk and Swastika on their tailfins. There was nothing particularly odd about this. The party flag had become the national flag and many European airliners carried their countries' flags on the tailfins (some still do, noteably Switzerland and Austria). Prestige projects, such as the giant airships also carried the Nazi flag emplem on their tailfin - although the main man at Zeppelin, Dr Hugo Eckener, was not happy about this. It would not have been unusual to have the National Flag put on theAuto Unions and Mercedes cars, especially when undertaking record breaking attempts, because of the national honour which would accrue to Germany if they were succesful. After all, nearly all the British Land Speed Record cars of the era carried the Union Flag somewhere on their bodywork.

According to a book I read recently, Goebbels wanted huge swastikas painted on the side of the Graf Zeppelin, but Eckener told him to go forth and multiply.... They compromised instead on a small one painted on one side of the tail fin, which Eckener would always try and make sure was on the hidden side whenever it flew over a town.

[Viss1]

Since it came up, here is a discussion of the origins of the swastika. Be forewarned, it is in the Paddock Club, so some posts may be a bit blue.

[cegerer]

Brumm of Italy still produce 1:43 Auto Union diecast models with the correct swastika markings. I purchased a few 2-3 years ago. I have seen the same model with and without the swastika.

The lack of tobacco markings on models is thanks to the tobacco companies themselves, not the model companies. The tobacco companies are concerned with lawsuits alleging that they allow cigarette markings on "toys", even though these are high-detail adult collectibles. So, they will not allow model companies to reproduce their logos. Some go so far as to not even allow the colors, much less the logos. Players would not allow their blue & white colors on some models, even without the actual Players logos! -- Curt

[Eric McLoughlin]

I bought one of the 1/43 Brumm Auto Union Streamliners at Goodwood last Friday - guess what, no Swastikas.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
IIRC, the swastikas carried on the Mercs and A-U's at the Vanderbilt Cup races on Long Island were applied at the request of the event organizers. I have no idea why they were applied at other events.

Uhlenhaut comments from Nixon; 'Silver Arrows'; Pg. 181..."One curious thing I remember is that the Americans made us paint swastikas on our cars, for some reason".

[aportinga]

I recall a Monaco print of an AU with the marking on it.... It looked similar to the one below. Ironically I cannot seem to find it on the web...

[atbrady2000]

I have that print!!

[aportinga]

What the one with the swastika?

[Dennis Hockenbury]

I'm not familiar with any posters of the period depicting the Silver Arrows with swastikas. The only Geo Ham - Monaco poster with the German machines that I know of is this one.


With thanks to Dennis David and his great site, www.ddavid.com

[aportinga]

I am 100% positive that it was one of these posters which had the car in question. I look further.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Rob29
I think the only race that Hitler attended was the 1937 Avusrennen,which was the reason for the Swastikas.

Really, Hitler was there?

That would be totally new for me, and I agree with Vitesse2, the AUs hadn't any Swastikas there in 1937?

[Don Capps]

It was 1934.....

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Don Capps
It was 1934.....

Don,
where?
AVUS or German GP?
Both would be new for me?

[Geoff E]

The 1934 German GP programme - http://progcovers.m4...or/nurburg6.jpg - shows a car with a "patriotic" tail.

Another programme cover http://progcovers.m4...rburgring37.jpg shows a small swastika on a driver's badge.