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Crosthwaite and Gardiner Auto Union Restoration...Where?


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#1 doc540

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 16:34

Would someone please provide a link to comprehensive pictures of the amazing restoration work C&G has done on the Auto Unions?

I have a link to their website which contains a few pictures, but I recall seeing a more comprehensive documentation of their amazing work with the Auto Unions. :confused:

Thank you

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#2 Gary C

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 16:40

how about the official Audi website??

#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 20:59

'Restoration' or 're-creation'?

I know it's a fine difference... but they do build cars from scratch, don't they?

#4 Racer.Demon

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 21:33

There's more on C&G in this thread.

Ray is indeed right. The Type A pictured in Brun's thread was built from scratch on the behest of Belgian Audi importer d'Ieteren - so a re-creation.

Others will simply say replica...


#5 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 10:47

Originally posted by doc540
Would someone please provide a link to comprehensive pictures of the amazing restoration work C&G has done on the Auto Unions?

I have a link to their website which contains a few pictures, but I recall seeing a more comprehensive documentation of their amazing work with the Auto Unions. :confused:

Thank you

Just a tip, search on google, there are several sides about the C&G projects for Audi with nice pics.

Most of the Auto Unions are re-creations. There are only the two Auto Union Typ D from the Karassiks found in the early 90s in Russia and the Riga Hillclimber Typ D (with V16-engine) which are real restored cars. And for sure the Typ C from the "Deutsches Museum, as well as the Typ D from Prague. But the last two cars never raced, they were only exhibition cars.

#6 john medley

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 21:37

Ray
You dont need to see photos.

You live in Queensland . Arent you able to hunt around and find one there , almost finished ?

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 01:38

Last time I went there John, which would have been four or five years ago, there was only Coopers to be seen.

I'll drop in when I get a chance next week or the following week. Should be nice to see an Auto Union in the flesh...

Maybe I can take photos of the construction in progress?

#8 Holger Merten

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 05:56

Good luck Ray!

I'll drop in when I get a chance next week or the following week. Should be nice to see an Auto Union in the flesh...



But which one would that be? A Typ B, a Typ D Strealiner from Reims? I never head about a new project?

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 15:28

They don't tell me much either, Holger... but I'm sure John knows what he's talking about and I know where the Australian Auto Union factory is...

#10 Holger Merten

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 15:48

Ray you have my e-mail adress...

#11 peebo

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 15:57

doc 540, there is a book you might like to take a look at. It is called Auto Union GP Race and Record Cars by Peter Vann. It is published by MBI publishing and the ISBN no. is 0-7603-1307-5.

It has some cracking pictures and details of C&G's work (restoration or recreation whichever you prefer) and some lovely pictures of the cars on various tracks; Montlhery, Donington, and the static display at Goodwood 1999.

Its quite a good read, but the pictures make it for me. Hope ypu enjoy it. :wave:

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 16:03

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Ray you have my e-mail adress...


I do when I'm at Murrumburrah... but I'm en-route to Brisbane at the moment and don't have it there.

If you want to exchange e.mails, just send me a note at raybell@justin-bell.net and I'll get it somewhere along the way.

#13 Jonas

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 18:41

I know where the Australian Auto Union factory is...



I might be missing something here, but what's with A-U's being built down under? I don't follow, but am certainly interested!!

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 02:05

Oh we do lots of strange things here, Jonas...

Nothing too hard for our craftsmen.

#15 Holger Merten

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 05:44

AU started in the late 30s to make a contract in Australia to built DKWs in license, the first cars were built in 1939. During the 2nd WW this Australian company continued producing DKWs (without paying the license). I think the production ends in the late 40s, and under a new brand.

#16 Holger Merten

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 15:10

I talked with Auto Union last friday, and they told me, that we'll could expect another Typ A from C&G in the next month. So if somebody will visit the guys in the UK, he will have the chance to see more under construction.

#17 Jonas

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 18:30

Would I be correct when I assume that this one is for Audi Tradition itself?

Does anyone know if the first A-type replica has been sorted out? (rumors had it that it didn't run very well when it was fired up during a presentation..)

While we're at it.. Is the streamliner replica in running condition? Has it been driven?

Would love to see and hear those replicas at 5000 rpm, since they certainly could take take the "punishing"!

Ok, just one last A-U question.. Any news about the ex-Karassik D-type that nowadays resides (I think) with a (to me) unknown British gentleman? I heard some rumors once that he intended to race it..

Well, that's all for now :smoking:

#18 Holger Merten

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 19:21

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonas
Would I be correct when I assume that this one is for Audi Tradition itself?

Does anyone know if the first A-type replica has been sorted out? (rumors had it that it didn't run very well when it was fired up during a presentation..)
[/QUOTE]

No, it belongs to the belgian Audi importer D'Iteren, who is a great Auto Union fan with a big AU-collection. I don't know anything about the technical condition of the car, but I think C & G is fit enough to finish the Typ A as well as the others.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonas

While we're at it.. Is the streamliner replica in running condition? Has it been driven?
[/QUOTE]
The streamliner is a very special car which seldom runs. I think AU is afraid that this car could broke. It runs in France for it's presentation three years ago, but since then, it had a place in the Audi collection.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonas

Would love to see and hear those replicas at 5000 rpm, since they certainly could take take the "punishing"!
[/QUOTE]
I could understand that very well. When I saw my first AU Typ C running in 1992 , it was like a cold shower was going through my body. And when I first saw the hillclimber at the Klausen in 1998, it was unbelievable. A great concept this construction and a good design too.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonas


Ok, just one last A-U question.. Any news about the ex-Karassik D-type that nowadays resides (I think) with a (to me) unknown British gentleman? I heard some rumors once that he intended to race it..
[/QUOTE]
Did the Karassiks sold a car. They had two Typ D, a 1938 and a 1939 car, but the restoration was with lot of support of Audi, and they signed many contracts, what they could do with their cars, and which car finds a place in the Audi collection, but could be possible they sold it. And Audi didn't bye it? :confused:

Well, that's all for now :smoking: [/B][/QUOTE]

#19 Jonas

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 20:45

No, it belongs to the belgian Audi importer D'Iteren, who is a great Auto Union fan with a big AU-collection.



Hm, I don't quite understand. There was an A-type A-U delivered to D'Iteren a while ago (don't remeber when, but surely several months ago, according to some article I read on the Web). Is this the same one? Maybe I misunderstood, since I thought there was a second A-type being built.
I do by no means want to miscredit C&G. I think they're more than capable enough to get an A-U running properly, as I heard myself at Eiffel Classic in '97 when they ran the original Riga V-16 along with one of the Karassik V12's (I think it was the 1939 with the two-stage blower they ran, but both cars were there on display. MB were there with a W125 as well.). Lovely sound! But they were (understandably) conservative with the revs..

As to whether Karassik has sold his cars; this is a rumor I've heard. I'm sorry to say that I don't remember where! What I heard was that he sold both cars, one to Audi Tradition and one to an anonymous British gentleman who intended to race it!!
But I want it to be clear that these are rumors which I just wanted to see if anyone else had heard. There are so many people who talk a lot more than they know! Especially when it comes to these cars..

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#20 Holger Merten

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 21:15

There are so many people who talk a lot more than they know! Especially when it comes to these cars..



Yes, you are totally right. I've heard so much rumours... and I just try to believe in the things which are truth. There are so much rumours about the Auto Union Silver Arrows. I have enough experiences with them. So don't ask me what's really true and what's not.

Or do you believe in the 12 Zylinder Typ E in Dresden?? :|

#21 René de Boer

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 21:32

Originally posted by Holger Merten
The streamliner is a very special car which seldom runs. I think AU is afraid that this car could broke. It runs in France for it's presentation three years ago, but since then, it had a place in the Audi collection.

It ran at Montlhéry for its presentation in 2000, and IIRC, I think it also ran at the Nürburgring in that same year, although I don't remember whether it was at the round of the European Le Mans Series, the Oltimer Grand Prix or the Eifel Klassik. Then it went into the museum mobile in Ingolstadt and, based on what I have been told, it won't go out of the museum anymore because it is too big - apparently, they have built the museum around it.

Concerning the D'Ieteren-owned AU Typ A, it was on display in Ingolstadt during a club rally of the Auto Union Veteranen Club in July, and that was the very first time there was a Typ A in Ingolstadt. Good to hear that C&G are building a second one!

#22 Jonas

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 21:38

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Or do you believe in the 12 Zylinder Typ E in Dresden??



I must confess that I haven't heard about it? Is it the second Awtowelo that was reputed to be in a Technical Museum somewhere in Germany or is it another car? If it is another one, I would be extremely interested to learn more about it. But, as our dear collegue TNF'ers have presented in their extraordinary research about the Sokol/Awtowelo/A-U E-type, it seems highly unlikely that an E-type was ever produced. Therefore I must be pessimistic about claims of an E-type A-U existing today, in Dresden or anywhere else. But I would love to believe there is one yet to make its way into the public!

Ok, now I'm gonna go to bed, read a chapter or two in my current evening reading, an original 1938 publication of Elly Beinhorn-Rosemeyer's Mein Mann, der Rennfahrer and dream sweet A-U dreams :love:

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 09:35

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Yes, you are totally right. I've heard so much rumours... and I just try to believe in the things which are truth. There are so much rumours about the Auto Union Silver Arrows. I have enough experiences with them. So don't ask me what's really true and what's not.....


I'll let you know as soon as I can find out what's happening in Brisbane...

I might even be able to go to the works tomorrow.

#24 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 09:54

Originally posted by Jonas


I must confess that I haven't heard about it? Is it the second Awtowelo that was reputed to be in a Technical Museum somewhere in Germany or is it another car? If it is another one, I would be extremely interested to learn more about it. But, as our dear collegue TNF'ers have presented in their extraordinary research about the Sokol/Awtowelo/A-U E-type, it seems highly unlikely that an E-type was ever produced. Therefore I must be pessimistic about claims of an E-type A-U existing today, in Dresden or anywhere else. But I would love to believe there is one yet to make its way into the public!

Ok, now I'm gonna go to bed, read a chapter or two in my current evening reading, an original 1938 publication of Elly Beinhorn-Rosemeyer's Mein Mann, der Rennfahrer and dream sweet A-U dreams :love:


Sorry Jonas, I was just joking about the 12-Zylinder Typ E. And I agree the boys did a good job about that car. :blush:

While I was working for Audi, there was a call every month from russia about a new Auto Union, so, I've heard everything. We travelled to Montevideo, cause somebody told Audi, there they could see a new found Auto Union 10 years ago. Thereforre I believe only in those cars I can see/have seen, or they are officially by Audi ... Therefore I made a call to Auto Union last friday, to find out what's true about a new replica.

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 09:59

Originally posted by Holger Merten
AU started in the late 30s to make a contract in Australia to built DKWs in license, the first cars were built in 1939. During the 2nd WW this Australian company continued producing DKWs (without paying the license). I think the production ends in the late 40s, and under a new brand.


Now I don't claim to be an expert on these matters, but I don't think I've ever heard anything about anything like this.

#26 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 10:05

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Now I don't claim to be an expert on these matters, but I don't think I've ever heard anything about anything like this.


Ray, did you change the threads. :drunk:

Anyway, I'll hope I could support you with some names, if this would be of interest for you?

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 10:08

Always, of course...

#28 Jonas

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 10:18

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Sorry Jonas, I was just joking about the 12-Zylinder Typ E .



Oh... Should have realized. Was a bit tired last night, though :drunk: *feeling a bit stupid*

Maybe I'm still tired or stupid or whatever, but I still don't understand what's going on in Brisbane, Australia concerning A-U Silver Arrows..

#29 Holger Merten

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 20:30

Okay Ray,

here are some facts.....
"Regent Motors" in Melbourne, they produced DKWs since 1937 till 1939. Detlof von Oertzen was the representative for the AU in East Asia (including Australia). Do you remember this "von Oertzen"? He started with the idea of the P-Waqen for Wanderer, before the Auto Union was builded?

Oertzen said, that he got some investors in Melbourne, who gave him money to build a factory for australian-made-bodyworks and to complete everysthing, so he could sell 2000 cars in his first year. (BTW: v.Oerten had to leave Germany because of his "jewish" wife in 1935.)

Some spares, engines and so on came from Germany, but most of the parts were built in Australia. And in 1939 the DKW F8 was newnamed by Regent Motor as "RM 8".
This are the facts by the moment and by my easy to take sources.Sorry nothing about Silver Arrows from Australia.....



___________
BTW: This is post 1001, which gets me the status of a gold member. I hope I brought some news to TNF.

#30 Dick Willis

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 10:22

In response to a long standing invitation, last week I visited the workshop in Brisbane where the Australian Auto Union is under construction. Unfortunately the car itself was away at the bodybuilders at the time of my visit but I did see a photo of it and another example of the body builder's work and can cofirm that it is of a very high standard.
The car is a C Type and built to a set of original plans which came into the owner's hands many years ago via the original Porsche importer to Australia. Naturally the existence of these plans was of great interest to Croswaite and Gardner and facilitated the availabilty to our Australian constructor the availability of many vital parts.
I also saw some new suspension forgings and a used tranaxle housing and I can assure TNF'ers that this project is indeed slowly progressing and will be of an authentically high standard, but don't hold your breath in anticipation of a completion date as these particular wheels do grind quite slowly.

#31 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 10:32

Originally posted by Jonas
As to whether Karassik has sold his cars; this is a rumor I've heard. I'm sorry to say that I don't remember where! What I heard was that he sold both cars, one to Audi Tradition and one to an anonymous British gentleman who intended to race it!!
But I want it to be clear that these are rumors which I just wanted to see if anyone else had heard. There are so many people who talk a lot more than they know! Especially when it comes to these cars..


The 2-stage supercharged Karassik car was indeed sold to a current - if occasional - Historic racer and is currently for sale once more. It is on display in the Donington Collection at Donington Park if anybody wants to have a close view.

DCN

#32 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 11:01

Interesting project, but did I understand right, the guy got original plans from Porsche? :eek:

#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 11:06

If I read Dick correctly, they came through Norman Hamilton...

Norman Hamilton was the Australian Distributor for Porsche from about 1953. He was, I recall reading, the first ever distributor for Porsche... whether that was in the world or outside Germany or what, I don't recall. But he had a very highly favoured position with Porsche, as did his son, Allan, until Porsche's management structure changed.

#34 Jonas

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 13:06

This australian Auto-Union C-Type replica that is being built, is it owned by a private person or some kind of branch of Audi?

The fact that there is another replica being built is news to me. I sure hope we will see it during the outings in the future!

By the way, is it possible to get FIA papers for such an all-out replica so that it can be raced in historic events?

#35 karlcars

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 15:14

I passed by C&G a bit more than a month ago and saw no sign of any additional work on Auto Unions, so I think the story of another A-Type from that source at least has to be unconfirmed at best.

I've made a bid to drive the D'Ieteren A-Type but been turned down so far. Believe me, I'll keep trying!

#36 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 15:18

Ohh a new Typ A, that's not new to me, talking to Audi tradition dept. I heard they will get one. :smoking:

Reading this thread, I thought, there will be built another one for Australia. But I'm sure Audi has so good contracts with C&G that they couldn't built replicas, if they got an order by someone.

Although C&G could start a production line for Auto Unions. :lol:

#37 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 17:13

Originally posted by peebo
doc 540, there is a book you might like to take a look at. It is called Auto Union GP Race and Record Cars by Peter Vann.

I would second this recommendation on this book. Stunning photography on most of the five surviving A-U's. Good section on the restoration of C Type and the recreation of the body of this car.

In looking at the tires of these cars, they all have Dunlop Racing with a "diamond-type" tread pattern. Are these the only tires available for these cars? I have not yet seen a modern photo of the A-U's or MB's that show the "interlocking reverse C" pattern of the original Continental rear tires that were generally used in period.

This question was also referenced in the CMC Type C model thread.

#38 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 17:35

I was in contact with the public relations dept. of Conti in january, and they told me that they HAD to build some "new" old tyres for the Auto Unions.

#39 dolomite

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 17:41

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
In looking at the tires of these cars, they all have Dunlop Racing with a "diamond-type" tread pattern. Are these the only tires available for these cars? I have not yet seen a modern photo of the A-U's or MB's that show the "interlocking reverse C" pattern of the original Continental rear tires that were generally used in period.


I have some photos that I took of an A-U displayed on the Audi stand at the 1980 UK Motor Show in Birmingham. The tyres in these photos look like the original pattern you refer to.

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#40 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 17:48

Yes, show us. :love: must be the AU Typ C from the "Deutsches Museum", the restoration of that car was made by Audi with some help of former AU race dept. employees like L. Sebastian and E. von Eberhorst. But not with the C&G quality standards, so also this went to C&G in the late 90s.

#41 dmj

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 18:03

Originally posted by Ray Bell
If I read Dick correctly, they came through Norman Hamilton...

Norman Hamilton was the Australian Distributor for Porsche from about 1953. He was, I recall reading, the first ever distributor for Porsche... whether that was in the world or outside Germany or what, I don't recall. But he had a very highly favoured position with Porsche, as did his son, Allan, until Porsche's management structure changed.

Surely not outside Germany - I believe most major countries had Porsche distributors by then. Frazer-Nash surely already had started importing in UK, and IIRC another company started even before them...

#42 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 19:12

Ohhh, what a thread :eek:: Porsche:stoned:, AU: , Australia:rolleyes:, Frazer-Nash......... :stoned:

#43 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 19:29

Originally posted by Holger Merten
I was in contact with the public relations dept. of Conti in january, and they told me that they HAD to build some "new" old tyres for the Auto Unions.

Thanks for the very good news Holger. Seeing these treasures with the correct tires again would be great.

And I would think, very good advertising for Conti. Perhaps CMC can copy the correct ones for once.

#44 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 21:21

Originally posted by dmj
Surely not outside Germany - I believe most major countries had Porsche distributors by then. Frazer-Nash surely already had started importing in UK, and IIRC another company started even before them...


All I really know for sure, dmj, is that I've read that Norman Hamilton's solid relationship with Porsche was based on the fact that he had the first distributorship... I have no real idea of the date that began.

If you then look at some of the cars they bought from Porsche for Allan to race you find some very select vehicles... the leading Porsche from the London-Sydney rally, the hillclimb car and the 906 he raced in 1965/67, and there was a 917 and a 908 in the workshop that I recall seeing at one time... just gathering dust.

#45 dolomite

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 21:50

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Yes, show us. :love: must be the AU Typ C from the "Deutsches Museum", the restoration of that car was made by Audi with some help of former AU race dept. employees like L. Sebastian and E. von Eberhorst. But not with the C&G quality standards, so also this went to C&G in the late 90s.


No problem. I've been meaning to post these for a while to see if anybody knew which car it was.

Posted Image

Posted Image

(Taken at the Birmingham NEC Motor Show 1980)

#46 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 22:01

Thanks for sharing your pics Dolomite. They are the first I have seen with the "correct" rear tire tread pattern.

Would you by chance have any photos that show the sidewall of the rear tires?

#47 dolomite

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 22:34

No, those are the only two shots I have.

#48 Holger Merten

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 22:57

Originally posted by dolomite

(....)



Thanks a lot for those pics.... wonderful AND interesting.......


The 1980 Audi quattro compared with the AU (1936)history.....
Okay, the quattro could fill some other threads! Brun? :rotfl:

#49 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 23:44

The pics of the C-Type kindly posted by Dolomite show a version of this car that differs from the photos in the Vann book.

The NEC pics show a painted body (I think) whereas the Vann book shows a polished aluminum body with the Dunlop tires.

Holger mentions that the original reproduction bodywork for the C-Type was replaced in the late 90's by C&G.

What is the current body of this car? Painted or polished. The Vann book also references that the bodywork (polished) as shown in this 2001 book was manufactured by "a team of Italian craftsmen".

#50 René de Boer

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 07:10

Originally posted by Holger Merten



Thanks a lot for those pics.... wonderful AND interesting.......


The 1980 Audi quattro compared with the AU (1936)history.....
Okay, the quattro could fill some other threads! Brun? :rotfl:


Nice to see the quattro with yellow headlights, thought this was only de rigeur in France... And the Talbot stand in the background, with the Talbot/Matra Rancho and the Solara on display. Hardly ever get to see any of those cars anymore these days, all swallowed up by rust!