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#1 Kvadrat

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 09:42

My attempt to post reply at old thread Argentinian Temporada Series failed so I started new thread.

I'm doing research on Temporada at the moment and having some problems with races' names and some dates. I used the following main sources.


Argentinian Temporada Series

Un tributo al chueco...

South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952

AUTOMOVILSPORT

VeloceToday


I compiled a list of races based on information from these sources.

02.09.47 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.09.47 – Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires (VeloceToday).
Gran Premio de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
02.09.47 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).

02.15.47 – Gran Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EVA PERON Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.15.47 – Gran Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires (VeloceToday).
02.16.47 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.16.47 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).

02.23.47 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.23.47 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
03.01.47 – “Filial Automovil Club Argentino - Rosario, Santa Fe - Circuit “Parque de la Independencia” (VeloceToday).
03.02.47 – Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (Un tributo al chueco...).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

01.17-18.48 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
01.17-18.48 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.17.48 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
01.18.48 – Gran Premio del General Juan Peron y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).

01.25.48 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
01.25.48 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.25.48 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del Plata – (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL DEL GENERAL SAN MARTÍN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
01.25.48 – Gran Premio Internaçional del General San Martin (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Mar del Plata (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

02.01.48 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.01.48 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
02.01.48 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Rosario (Un tributo al chueco...).
COPA ACCIÓN DE SAN LORENZO (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.01.48 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

02.14.48 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.14.48 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
02.14.48 – Premio D.P.I. Dalmiro Varela Castex – ïðîâåðèòü äàòó (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DALMIRO VARELA CASTEX (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.14.48 – Premio Dalmiro Varela Castex (Ferrari – The Early Years).

01.29.49 – Gran Premio Juan Domingo Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
Gran Premio de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
01.30.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
01.30.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.30.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).

02.06.49 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.06.49 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
02.06.49 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DE EVA DUARTE PERÓN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.06.49 – Gran Premio del Doña Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).

02.13.49 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.13.49 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
02.13.49 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Rosario (Un tributo al chueco...).
COPA ACCIÓN DE SAN LORENZO (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.13.49 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Ferrari – The Early Years).

02.27.49 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.27.49 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
02.27.49 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del PlataGran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del Plata (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL DEL GENERAL SAN MARTÍN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.27.49 – Gran Premio Internaçional del General San Martin (Ferrari – The Early Years).

12.18.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
12.18.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
12.18.49 – Gran Premio Juan Domingo Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
12.18.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Trofeo General Juan Perón (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

01.08.50 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.08.50 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EXTRAORDINARIO DE EVA DUARTE PERÓN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
01.08.50 – Gran Premio Extraordinario del Doña Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Trofeo Eva Perón (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
01.09.50 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).


01.15.50 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
01.15.50 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.15.50 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del Plata (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL DEL GENERAL SAN MARTÍN(Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).

01.22.50 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
01.22.50 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.22.50 – Gran Premio Internacional San Lorenzo (Un tributo al chueco...).
COPA ACCIÓN DE SAN LORENZO (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
01.22.50 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Ferrari – The Early Years).

02.18.51 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.18.51 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
02.18.51 – Gran Premio Presidente Juan Domingo Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GRAL PERON Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
02.18.51 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Perón Cup Race (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

02.24.51 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EVA PERON Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
Copa Eva Perón (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
02.25.51 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
02.25.51 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
02.25.51 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).

03.09.52 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
03.09.52 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
03.09.52 – Gran Premio Presidente Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES(Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
03.09.52 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).

03.16.52 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
03.16.52 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (Argentinian Temporada Series, provided by Felix Muelas).
03.16.52 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EXTRAORDINARIO EVA DUARTE DE PERON(Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
03.16.52 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).

Is it possible to find out correct names and dates?

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#2 Rob29

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 16:01

Looks like you already have them Vladimir. For decades the only title from the sources I had was 'Peron Cup' Only suggestion I have is ditch the american style dates which can be confusing.
Pity they are not still held. I find it amazing that in the modern world there is not a serious race to even read about for two months. Don't anybody bother to mention NASCAR.

#3 Kvadrat

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 06:52

Originally posted by Rob29
Only suggestion I have is ditch the american style dates which can be confusing.


Sorry, I always thought this is common way of dates writing for all English speaking countries. Will change dates soon.

But now is question on driver entered for 1947 races but not started in any race. Was he Francisco Cullingham according to VeloceToday or Francisco Galligan according to "South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952" and "Un tributo al chueco..."?

As for races' names Argentine sources mainly give names like “Grand Prix of a city” and other ones based on Felix Muelas’ and so often referred Tony Kaye’s lists give “Grand Prix of Juan or Eva Peron”. Who is right?

#4 Rob29

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 08:55

Originally posted by Kvadrat






As for races' names Argentine sources mainly give names like “Grand Prix of a city” and other ones based on Felix Muelas’ and so often referred Tony Kaye’s lists give “Grand Prix of Juan or Eva Peron”. Who is right?

Both seem to be correct. The 'GP of a city' seems to be comonplace,even today for the SudAm F3 series. The Buenos Aires races may have been renamed by the Argentine press for political reasons,depending on whether the Peronist party was in favour at the time!
The correct name for a race is often the subject for discussion here. IMHO you need to find programmes,posters ,photos of the podium to establish the title at the time. The name on the official FIA calendar or that used by journalists before or after the event is oftn different .

#5 O Volante

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 11:06

Interesting you ask about Francisco ...

The name of the man was Francisco José Culligan y Pichetto - apparently a typical Argentinian landowner of Irish stock, and sometimes race driver. He was born on 28 September 1903, the son of Francisco Culligan y Kennedy (1876-1934) and his wife Laura Pichetto. The younger Francisco was married to Gladys Burton; he died on 18 January 1959.

In fact, even "sometimes race driver" is possibly overstating the case. In my records I have Francisco Culligan entered in only three races: the two 1947 BsAs races, plus the Rafaela International (which was postponed), but rather strangely not at Rosario! His car was the ex-de Teffé, ex Forrest Greene Maserati 6CM 1558, that appeared in the 1948 Temporada (and later) in the hands of Andres Fernandez. Finally, according to my data, Francisco did start the 9 February 1947 race, but retired for some reason!

#6 Kvadrat

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 06:33

Here's race list with corrected dates writing style.

09.02.47 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
09.02.47 – Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires (VeloceToday).
Gran Premio de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
09.02.47 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).

15.02.47 – Gran Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EVA PERON Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
15.02.47 – Gran Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires (VeloceToday).
16.02.47 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
16.02.47 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).

23.02.47 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
23.02.47 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.03.47 – “Filial Automovil Club Argentino - Rosario, Santa Fe - Circuit “Parque de la Independencia” (VeloceToday).
01.03.47 – Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (Un tributo al chueco...).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

17-18.01.48 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
17-18.01.48 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
17.01.48 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
18.01.48 – Gran Premio del General Juan Peron y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).

25.01.48 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
25.01.48 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
25.01.48 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del Plata – (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL DEL GENERAL SAN MARTÍN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
25.01.48 – Gran Premio Internaçional del General San Martin (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Mar del Plata (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

01.02.48 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
01.02.48 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
01.02.48 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Rosario (Un tributo al chueco...).
COPA ACCIÓN DE SAN LORENZO (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
01.02.48 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

14.02.48 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
14.02.48 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
14.02.48 – Premio D.P.I. Dalmiro Varela Castex – ïðîâåðèòü äàòó (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DALMIRO VARELA CASTEX (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
14.02.48 – Premio Dalmiro Varela Castex (Ferrari – The Early Years).

29.01.49 – Gran Premio Juan Domingo Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
Gran Premio de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
30.01.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
30.01.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
30.01.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).

06.02.49 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
06.02.49 – Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Perón (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
06.02.49 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DE EVA DUARTE PERÓN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
06.02.49 – Gran Premio del Doña Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).

13.02.49 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
13.02.49 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
13.02.49 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Rosario (Un tributo al chueco...).
COPA ACCIÓN DE SAN LORENZO (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
13.02.49 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Ferrari – The Early Years).

27.02.49 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
27.02.49 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
27.02.49 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del PlataGran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del Plata (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL DEL GENERAL SAN MARTÍN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
27.02.49 – Gran Premio Internaçional del General San Martin (Ferrari – The Early Years).

18.12.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
18.12.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
18.12.49 – Gran Premio Juan Domingo Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
18.12.49 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Trofeo General Juan Perón (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

08.01.50 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
08.01.50 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EXTRAORDINARIO DE EVA DUARTE PERÓN (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
08.01.50 – Gran Premio Extraordinario del Doña Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Trofeo Eva Perón (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
09.01.50 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).


15.01.50 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
15.01.50 – Gran Premio Internacional del General San Martín (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
15.01.50 – Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Mar del Plata (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO INTERNACIONAL DEL GENERAL SAN MARTÍN(Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).

22.01.50 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
22.01.50 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
22.01.50 – Gran Premio Internacional San Lorenzo (Un tributo al chueco...).
COPA ACCIÓN DE SAN LORENZO (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
Gran Premio Ciudad de Rosario (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
22.01.50 – Copa Acción de San Lorenzo (Ferrari – The Early Years).

18.02.51 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
18.02.51 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
18.02.51 – Gran Premio Presidente Juan Domingo Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GRAL PERON Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
18.02.51 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).
Perón Cup Race (www.automovilsport.com.ar).

24.02.51 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EVA PERON Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
Copa Eva Perón (www.automovilsport.com.ar).
25.02.51 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
25.02.51 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
25.02.51 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).

09.03.52 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
09.03.52 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
09.03.52 – Gran Premio Presidente Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO DEL GENERAL JUAN PERÓN Y DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES(Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
09.03.52 – Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Ferrari – The Early Years).

16.03.52 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (South American Formula Libre/Temporada Races 1946-1952).
16.03.52 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (this thread, provided by Felix Muelas).
16.03.52 – Gran Premio Maria Eva Duarte de Peron (Un tributo al chueco...).
GRAN PREMIO EXTRAORDINARIO EVA DUARTE DE PERON(Un tributo al chueco..., reference to Tony Kaye).
16.03.52 – Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón (Ferrari – The Early Years).

#7 Kvadrat

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 03:27

There are different maps for 1947 Rosario circuit.

Posted Image
(Un tributo al chueco... )

Posted Image
(Automovilsport)

Which one is correct?

#8 Kvadrat

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 01:36

Another interesting question is Temporada support races.

In 1947, there were at least two support races before each Grands Prix. Full event schedule used to be as follows: practice for Grand Prix and qualifying for support races on Friday, qualifying for Grand Prix and two support races themselves on Saturday, Grand Prix on Sunday.

I still use sources mentioned above.

Original quotation (from Un tributo al chueco... Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires, 1947) :

"Esta tercera posición lo dejó fuera de la carrera de los autos especiales que se realizó al día siguiente con la presencia de los famosos pilotos italianos Achille Varzi y Luigi Villoresi".

Automatic Google translation:

"This third position left it outside the race of the special cars that was made on the following day with the presence of famous Italian pilots Achille Varzi and Luigi Villoresi".

Original quotation (from story of 1948 Temporada) :

"Otra de las novedades fue que no se permitiría la participación de autos de fórmulas nacionales en las carreras centrales, práctica ésta que se había contemplado el año anterior".

Automatic Google translation:

"Another one of the new features was that the participation of cars of national formulas in the central races would not be allowed, practical this one that had been contemplated the previous year".

So two top finishers of race cars support race could start in main race.


Fangio took part in support race before the first 1947 Temporada race in Buenos Aires.

Original quotation (from Un tributo al chueco... Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires, 1947) :

"Fangio se había entusiasmado con los "coches especiales", que es como se conocía en ese entonces a los que luego se llamarían los "fórmula 1", que estaban llegando al país y es célebre la pregunta efectuada a Francisco Borgonovo calificado como el más inteligente dirigente del automovilismo argentino de todos los tiempos: ¿Cuánto tengo que poner para sentarme en uno de esos coches? y es cuando acertadamente comprende que la única forma de estar cerca de estas verdaderas joyas, reservadas para los pilotos europeos, era empezar teniendo un buen auto de mecánica nacional ya que en las carreras que se organizaban, a los que finalizaban en los dos primeros lugares, se los habilitaba a participar junto a los autos importados. Es entonces cuando le pide a su hermano "Toto" que estudie la posibilidad de colocar un motor de camión Chevrolet de 3916 cc de cilindrada, que habían sido utilizados en la guerra, sobre un chasis de FordT que tenían en el taller. Fangio reconocía que era un híbrido ya que el motor era tan largo que apenas cabía en el chasis, de modo que habían agujereado el piso del habitáculo por donde asomaban los tres pedales, a los que había que presionar como un órgano de iglesia, en lugar de empujar hacia delante. En forma unánime quedó bautizado como "La Negrita" y quedó listo para debutar".

Automatic Google translation:

"Fangio had been excited with the "special cars", that are as it were known in that then ones which soon would be called "formula 1", that was arriving at the country and is famous the carried out question to Francisco Borgonovo described like the most intelligent leader of the Argentine motoring of all the times: How much I must put to seat to me in one of those cars?
and it is when acertadamente it includes/understands that the only form to be near these true jewels, reserved for the European pilots, was to begin having a good car of national mechanics since in the races which they were organized, to that finalized both in first places, qualified them to participate next to the concerned cars. It is then when brother requests him to his "Toto" which he studies the possibility of placing a motor of Chevrolet truck of 3916 cc of piston displacement, which they had been used in the war, on a chassis of FordT which they had in the factory. Fangio recognized that it was a hybrid since the motor so long era that as soon as fitted in the chassis, so that they had bored the floor of the cockpit by where they showed the three pedals, to which there was to press like a church organ, instead of pushing towards ahead.
In unanimous form it was baptized as "the Negrita" and was ready to make debut".

But I'm not sure about this story on Fangio's question about payment. Did it really happen in 1947?


Races

Friday, 7.02.47 - qualifying
Saturday, 8.02.47 - races

Original quotation (from Un tributo al chueco... Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires, 1947) :

"Llegaron sobre la hora y no pudieron hacer las pruebas de clasificación por lo que se ubicó en la última fila de la serie. En la tercera vuelta se ubicó tercero, posición que mantuvo hasta el fin, no obstante algún problema de temperatura en el motor del auto. A continuación se realizó la final a 15 vueltas donde volvió a clasificar tercero a 32" del ganador Bucci y detrás de Edison Hortal (Quien 15 días después, en Rosario tendría un grave accidente que derivaría en la muerte del piloto).

Esta tercera posición lo dejó fuera de la carrera de los autos especiales que se realizó al día siguiente con la presencia de los famosos pilotos italianos Achille Varzi y Luigi Villoresi. Se vuelven a Balcarce a solucionar el problema de temperatura antes de la próxima en Rosario".

Automatic Google translation:

"They arrived on the hour and they could not test of classification reason why it was located in the last row of the series. In the third return it was located third, position that maintained until the aim, despite some problem of temperature in the motor of the car. Next the end to 15 returns was made where it returned to classify third a 32"of Bucci winner and behind Edison Hortal (Whom 15 days later, in Rosary a serious accident would have that would derive in the death of the pilot).

This third position left it outside the race of the special cars that was made on the following day with the presence of famous Italian pilots Achille Varzi and Luigi Villoresi. They become to Balcarce to solve the temperature problem before the next one in Rosary".

Another original quotation (from Automovilsport) :

"La primera de las carreras internacionales de aquella Temporada Argentina llevó como nombre el de Gran Premio de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires e incluyó una serie de competencias "soporte" reservadas a monopostos de la Mecánica Nacional y a autos "deportivos de baja cilindrada" según la denominación oficial del Reglamento Particular de la Prueba. En la carrera de Mecánica Nacional Fuerza Limitada el ganador fue Edison Hortal con un Plymouth y en Fuerza Libre, ganó Mario P.Chiozza con su célebre "bimotor" Mercury".

Automatic Google translation:

"First of the international races of that Argentina Season it took as it names the one of Great Prize of the City of Buenos Aires and included a series of competitions "has supported" reserved to monopostos of the National Mechanics and sport cars "of low piston displacement" according to the official denomination of the Particular Regulation of the Test. In the race of National Mechanics Limited Force the winner was Edison Hortal with a Plymouth and in Free Force, Mario P.Chiozza with its famous "twin-engine plane" Mercury won".

Are they both on the same event? First says winner was Bucci and second says about Hortal. If top three finishers were Bucci, Hortal and Fangio, did Bucci and Hortal really took part in main race?

There were some topics in TNF with mention of Fuerza Limitada and Fuerza Libre terms. But I still don't understand what they really were. I think Fuerza Libre was almost the same as European Formula Libre. Fuerza Limitada had some engine capacity limitations. But both had some local features. Which ones?

And may be there were not two support races but three ones: Fuerza Limitada, Fuerza Libre and sport cars?



Friday, 14.02.47 - qualifying
Saturday, 15.02.47 - races

I didn't find mentions about these races.


Rosario

Friday, 21.02.47 - qualifying
Saturday, 22.02.47 - races

Original quotation:

"En esta prueba internacional se autorizó la participación de autos de Mecánica Nacional Fuerza Libre y Juan Manuel Fangio se presentó con un Chevrolet Wayne equipado con tres radiadores de agua, con el que se clasificó sexto. Entre los autos nacionales, el segundo clasificado fue el Cadillac de Clemar Bucci, un auto de buena línea y excelente rendimiento.

En esta serie de carrera hubo que lamentar la muerte de dos grandes deportistas que cayeron durante la jornada de clasificación. El primero de los accidentes tuvo como protagonista al destacado corredor santafesino Emilio Meneghetti. El segundo y fatal accidente quebró la vida de Edison Hortal, joven valor del automovilismo de aquellos años e integrante de una familia de deportistas del automóvil. Ambos accidentes se produjeron en la misma zona, la rotonda del monumento al General Belgrano al impactar los autos contra los árboles que bordeaban el parque".

Automatic Google translation:

"In this international test the participation of cars of National Mechanics was authorized Libre Force and Juan Manuel Fangio appeared with a Chevrolet Wayne equipped with three water radiators, with which he classified himself sixth. Between the national cars, the classified second was the Cadillac de Clemar Bucci, a car of good line and excellent yield.

In this series of race it was necessary to lament the death of two great sportsmen who fell during the classification day. First of the accidents it had like protagonist to the running outstanding santafesino Emilio Meneghetti. The second and fatal accident the life of Edison Hortal, young person broke value of the motoring of those years and member of a family of sportsmen of the automobile. Both accidents took place in the same zone, the roundhouse of the monument to General Belgrano when hitting the cars against the trees that bordered the park".

#9 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 00:14

From the records of the Comisión Deportiva Automovilística (CDA) of the Automóvil Club Argentino (ACA).

Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Rosario
2 de marzo de 1947
Organised by the Rosario station of the ACA
Circuit of 2.811,20 meters.

First Heat, "Premio Juan M.Garat"
1º, nº 33, Benedicto Campos, Whippet, 40m31s7/10, 20 laps
2º, nº 26, José Ramonda, Ford, 42m39s5/10, 20 Laps
3º, nº 44, José Manuel Faraoni, Ford "T", 41m52s2/10, 19 laps
4º, nº 29, Octavio F.Stival, Ford "T", 42m40s9/10, 19 laps
5º, nº 32, Pancho Vila, Rugby, 42m46s4/10, 18 laps
6º, nº 34, Alberto Pagano, Plymouth, 42m05s5/10, 15 laps
7º, nº 22, Félix Pretonari, Ford "T", 31m42s5/10, 14 laps
DNF Héctor Chappel, Juan R.Martínez, Arturo Brescia, Brubo Nelli, Cándido Fasciuto.
DNS Pablo Trincavelli
Winner average: 82,145 km/h
Lap record: Campos, in the 2nd, 1m58s8/10, 85,187 km/h

Second Heat, Premio "Carlos M.Brosutti"
1º, nº 54, Juan Manuel Fangio, Chevrolet, 40m08s, 20 laps
2º, nº 41, Ernesto Nanni, Ford V8, 40m30s7/10, 20 laps
3º, nº 40, Clemar Bucci, Cadillac, 40m48s1/10, 20 laps
4º, nº 38, Mario Sessarego, Chevrolet, 41m27s, 20 laps
5º, nº 47, Victorio Zini, Graham Paige, 41m30s1/10, 19 laps
6º, nº 35, "Emart", Graham, 41m33s, 19 laps
7º, nº 49, Enrique Moyano, Ford-Amilcar, 41m35s5/10, 19 laps
8º, nº 48, Carlos Ubriaco, Ford-Bugatti, 41m55s7/10, 19 laps
9º, nº 37, Antonio Pereyra, Mercury, 41m44s9/10, 18 laps
10º, nº 46, Agustín Aguaviva, Ford V8, 40m25s5/10, 16 laps
DNF Carlos Fortunati Firpo, Victorio Rosa, Juan Roasenda, Mario J.Reibaldi.
Winner average: 82,590 km/h
Lap record: not available

(I understand, from these records, that the circuit used was the second one, the "Parque Independencia" racing track, in use until 1966. The circuit length was the same, and the average speed is more adecuated to this park lay-out than of the first, faster one. But there is no conclussive evidence, at least until I can get some photos of that race)

Premio Estímulo a la Mecánica Nacional
1º Ramonda, 1h03m50s2, 30 laps
2º Pereyra, 1h05m57s4, 30 laps
3º Vila, 1h06m06s1, 29 laps
4º Faraoni, 1h05m01s4, 27 laps
DNF Aguaviva, 20 laps
DNS Pretonari, Pagano
Winner average: 78,574
Lap record: Pereyra, laps 12 & 13, 2m00s1, 84,265 km/h

#10 Kvadrat

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 01:19

Great!!!

So there were so much participants and organizers decided to split them into two heats allowing start in final only for heats finishers. Fangio was 6th. Ramonda and Pereyra then could start in Grand Prix.

Do the records have data for other 1947 races or for following years?

#11 fines

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 15:21

Pablo, this is pure gold!!! :love:

Do you have more of this stuff, e.g. also of the coches especiales races???

#12 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 00:52

OK, I have the complete results of the
* "Gran Premio Internacional de Buenos Aires", held in February 9th, 1947, and
* "Tercer Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Buenos Aires", February 15th, 1947.
I will soon post them properly.

#13 Kvadrat

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 03:03

Thank you, Pablo!!! We are looking forward for your message!

#14 Kvadrat

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 05:06

There's picture in Corbis site of Fanfio sitting in a car in Argentine national livery after victory in one of 1952 Uruguaian races.

Posted Image

Caption:

Juan Manuel Fangio Sitting in Race Car
Original caption: Juan Manuel Fangio, who already held a world's championship racing title, added a victory in the Uruguayan Tourist Commission's International Grand Prize Race, to his list of triumphs here on March 23, 1952. He crossed the finish line of the city's racing course after averaging 103 kilometers per hour over the 172 kilometer run. No record for the course has been established as yet, since this was the first major event held upon it. Gangio was followed by "Chico" Landi of Brazil.

© Bettmann/CORBIS

Date Photographed: March 23, 1952



#15 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 13:50

Sorry, I can't see the picture.

So, go on with the results:

Segundo Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Buenos Aires
February 9th, 1947
Retiro circuit, 2.410 meters

Fuerza Limitada
1º, nº 32, Edison Hortal, Plymouth, 31m30s1, 20 laps
2º, nº 36, José Manuel Faraoni, Ford 4, 32m20s4
3º, nº 39, Jorge Ohlson, Ford "A", 32m33s7
4º, nº 46, Alberto Daporta, Chevrolet, 32m04s8, 19 laps
5º, nº 41, Elpidio Tortoni, Chevrolet, 32m18s2
6º, nº 40, Silvestre Ortensi, Ford "T", 33m12s6
7º, nº 31, José Froilán González, Chevrolet, 32m03s9, 17 laps
8º, nº 38, D.Rodríguez, Ford "T", 33m17s2
9º, nº 44, Juan Bautista Abbate, Buick, 24m09s9, 14 laps
Winner average: 91,804 kph
DNF: Luis Milanese, Oscar Pérez, Pablo Trincavelli, Benedicto Campos.
DNS: Eitel Cantoni, Gonzalo Llaser, Bernardo Pérez.

Fuerza Libre
1º, nº 47, Clemar Bucci, Cadillac, 30m38s3, 20 laps
2º, nº 48, Mario P.Chiozza, Mercury, 31m09s8
3º, nº 49, "Emart", Graham, 31m34s9
4º, nº 55, Emilio Meneghetti, Hudson, 31m37s2
5º, nº 50, Luis Repossi, Insignia de Oro, 31m39s9
6º, nº 54, E.A.S.Nanni, Ford V8, 30m50s, 19 laps
7º, nº 53, Mario Sessarego, 30m55s6
8º, nº 62, Mario J. Reibaldi, 31m14s2
9º, nº 60, Carlos Ubriaco, 31m15s8
10º, nº 56, Roque A. Brisco, 31m40s1
11º, nº 61, Víctor Prátola, 31m19s8, 18 laps
12º, nº 57, Carlos Fortunati Firpo, Ford V8, 28m26s5, 17 laps
Winner Average: 94,391 kph
DNF: Omar Carlevaro, H.Moyano
DNS: Agustín Aguaviva, Juan Firpo

Final de Mecánica Nacional
1º, nº 48, Chiozza, Mercury, 42m26s1, 30 laps
2º, nº 50, Reposi, Insignia de Oro, 43m22s4
3º, nº 53, Sessarego, Chevrolet, 43m48s4
4º, nº 54, Nanni, Ford V8, 42m37s6, 29 laps
5º, nº 60, Ubriaco, Ford-Bugatti, 43m03s6
6º, nº 47, Bucci, Cadillac, 42m54s6, 28 laps
7º, nº 62, Reibaldi, Hudson, 42m58s2
8º, nº 36, Faraoni, Ford, 43m08s7
9º, nº 55, Meneghetti, Hudson, 38m02s9, 26 laps
Winner average: 102,226 kph
DNF: Ohlson, Hortal, Ortensi, Tortoni, Daporta, "Emart".

Coches Especiales
1º, nº 16, Luis Villoresi, Maserati, 1h04m11s5, 50 laps
2º, nº 28, Aquiles Varzi, Alfa Romeo, 1h04m12s5
3º, nº 24, Francisco Landi, Alfa Romeo, 1h04m38s6, 49 laps
4º, nº 6, Giacomo Palmieri, Maserati, 1h04m43s4, 48 laps
5º, nº 12, Pablo L.Pesatti, Alfa Romeo, 1h04m53s3
6º, nº 2, Italo Bizio, Alfa Romeo, 1h04m45s2, 47 laps
7º, nº 53, Mario Sessarego, Chevrolet, 1h04m30s6, 45 laps
Winner average: 112,631 kph
DNF: Juan Gálvez, Francisco Culligan, Carlos Pintacuda, Oscar Gálvez, George Raph, Clemar Bucci.
DNS: Enrique Platé, Amadeo Bignami

(Names posted as appeared in originals).

More to be posted soon.







More to be posted soon

#16 Kvadrat

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 02:44

Thank you!!!

So there were 1st heat for local formula cars, 2nd heat for local Formula Libre cars and final for best 6 drivers of the 1 heat (Gonzalez was just outside this group) and 9 ones of the 2nd. There wasn't sport cars race. These cars probably took part in Fuerza Libre race.

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 04:55

IIRC sportscar racing didn't start in Argentina until 1948

#18 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 01:07

Fuerza Libre and Fuerza Limitada were a bit like Formula 1 and Formula 2 in Argentina. In fact, in the first sixties, Fuerza Libre became "Mecánica Nacional Fórmula 1" and Fuerza Limitada was named "Mecánica Nacional Fórmula 2". In 1966, after a coup d'etat, the word "Nacional" was reserved only to State bureau, so both series changed again name, this time to "Mecánica Argentina F-1" and "Mecánica Argentina F-2".
The first one held championships until 1979; the second only reunited enough cars to have its first crown in 1969, when the champion was certain Carlos Alberto Reutemann... Later became Formula 2 Codasur (in 1983), and in 1987 was transformed in South American Formula 3, lending the name Formula 2 to a new single-seater series. In the nineties, our struggling Formula 2 became "Formula Super Renault" and is struggling once again...

#19 Kvadrat

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 01:28

Yes, I see, in Argentina they were major and minor motor racing classes. Fuerza Libre (Unlimited Power?) might includ all types of cars - even largest and most powerful and sport cars. Fuerza Libre was, I guess, a class with limited engine capacity which allowed owners of smaller cars to have good racing.

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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 16 April 2004 - 05:03

I'm sure Pablo will correct me if I am wrong, but Fuerza Libra was not open to all types of cars. It was open to all types of cars built in Argentina which meant the imported Ferraris, Maseratis and Alfa Romeos could not take part, but ran instead in the Coches Especiales category.
Having said that, the rules seemed fairly liberal - not only would a Chevrolet-engined GP car qualify under Fuerza Libra , but so would an Alfa with its GP engine replaced by an Alfa marine engine.

#21 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 00:19

That's true, David. Fuerza Libre was not Formula Libre. I will look for some details to clarify the more the issue.

Back to the records:

Third Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Buenos Aires
Retiro, 2.410 meters

Fuerza Limitada
1º, nº 32, Edison Hortal, Plymouth, 14m27s2, 10 laps
2º, nº36, Ramón Mazzuti, Ford "T", 14m33s5
3º, nº 34, Juan E.Tamborini, Willys, 14m33s9
4º, nº 40, Silvestre Ortensi, Chevrolet, 15m00s7
5º, nº 37, Luis Milanese, Ford "A", 15m12s8
6º, nº 42, Gonzalo Llaser, Willys, 14m02s5, 9 laps
7º, nº 38, Doming Rodríguez, Ford "A", 14m36s2
8º, nº 46, Oscar Pérez, Ford "T", 15m23s8
9º, nº 41, "Pancho Vila", Rugby, 14m30s4, 8 laps
10º, nº 39, Jorge Ohlson, Ford "B", 14m32s8
DNF Francisco García, Eitel Cantoni, Benedicto Campos
Winner average: 100,46 kph

Fuerza Libre
1º, nº 47, Clemar Bucci, Cadillac, 13m47s7, 10 laps
2º, nº 50, Luis Repossi, Insignia de Oro, 14m09s2
3º, nº 62, Juan Manuel Fangio, Chevrolet, 14m19s2
4º, nº 54, Ernesto S.Nanni, Ford V8, 14m37s9
5º, nº 51, Félix Moyano, Ford-Am., 14m41s1
6º, nº 53, Mario Sessarego, Chevrolet, 14m41s8
7º, nº 57, Carlos F.Firpo, Ford, 14m56s9
8º, nº 61, Víctor Prátola, Studebaker, 15m10s3
9º, nº 60, Carlos Ubriaco, Ford Bugatti, 13m55s5, 9 laps
10º, nº 58, Omar Carlevaro, Solomar, 14m06s8, 8 laps
11º, nº 59, Raúl H.Musis, De Soto 8, 14m14s5
12º, nº 52, Agustín Aguaviva, Ford "A", 9m10s9, 6 laps
13º, nº 48, Antonio Pereyra, Bimotor Mercury, 9m41s
DNF: Julio A. Rosso, L.A.Campomar, Luis A.Clovijo
Winner Average:104,820 kph


Final de Mecánica Nacional
1º Bucci, 20m55s8, 15 laps
2º Hortal, 21m17s8
3º Fangio, 21m27s4
4º Moyano, 21m57s5
5º Sessarego, 21m58s3
6º Mazzutti, 22m14s4
7º Nanni, 22m22s5
8º Ubriaco, 21m05s8, 14 laps
9º Milanese, 21m18s9
10º Rodríguez, 22m15s5
11º Firpo, 22m20s8
12º Ortensi, 22m04s5, 9 laps
DNF: Tamborini, Repossi
DNS: Llaser, Prátola
Winner Average: 103,631 kph

Coches Especiales
1º, nº 16, Villoresi, Maserati, 1h05m9s5, 50 laps
2º, nº 12, Pessati, Alfa Romeo, 1h05m27s5
3º, nº 6, Giacomo Palmieri, Maserati, 1h06m11s5
4º, nº 2, Italo Bizio, Alfa Romeo, 1h06m08s1, 48 laps
5º, nº 24, Francisco Landi, Alfa Romeo, 1h06m23s7, 47 laps
6º, nº 22, George Raph, Maserati, 1h06m19s3, 44 laps
7º, nº 8, Juan Gálvez, Alfa Romeo, 1h06m30s3, 37 laps
DNF Oscar Gálvez, Pascual Puópolo, Achille Varzi
Winner Average: 110,960 kph

Sports Cars
1º, nº 19, Angel Lo Valvo, MG, 17m39s7, 10 laps
2º, nº 7, "JAF", MG, 17m40s5
3º, nº 9, Angel Pascuali, MG, 17m56s1
4º, nº 5, "Don Horacio", MG, 17m58s
5º, nº 3, Jorge B.Saggese, MG, 18m15s2, 9 laps
Winner Average: 81,872 kph

(So, there were sports cars after all!)

PD: Alessandro Silva taught me in the Spanish Forum that there were no George Raph at all, that the driver's real name was Raphael Bethenod de las Casas. He thought there were some press malconception of the guy's name, maybe because of the Hollywood actor named George Raph. But, as we can see, the official Automovil Club Argentino told us of George Raph...

#22 alessandro silva

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 09:00

Pablo,
your access to the ACA records is invaluable. Italian journalist Canestrini went to the Argentinean Temporada races of 1949 and in his report he wrote that he had visited the ACA Sporting Commission office and that their filing system was way superior than the one used by the Italian CSAI.
I hope that you'll continue to post them.

To clarify what I told you about "Raph" [Bethenod de las Casas] in my ridiculous Spanish, he was known as "Raph" in Europe. When he came back to France after the 1947 races, he gave an interview to French sports daily L'Equipe where he said how displeased he was that the Argentineans - his mother's fellow citizens - had called him George Raph, from actor George Raft he added. Incidentally, this interview is peculiarly uninformative for any other matter.

I still have three small questions about 1947.
i) Enrico Platé's race number for the Temporada races
ii) I have Edison and Darwin Hortal. Were they two? Edison Hortal died at Rosario, did he?
iii) What's the correct spelling: Pessati, Pessatti, Pesatti?

#23 David McKinney

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 09:53

Originally posted by alessandro silva
I have Edison and Darwin Hortal. Were they two? Edison Hortal died at Rosario, did he?

These were only two of several Hortals who raced in Argentina
Don Cástulo Hortal was active between 1925 and 1942
His son Edison started off as a riding mechanic for the father, and his brief career did indeed end with his fatal accident at Rosario
There was also a Nobel Hortal (who raced in 1948), Darwin Hortal (1949) and Franklin Hortal (1961). I suspect that Edison, Nobel and Darwin were all brothers, though Franklin could be from the next generation. Either way, Don Cástulo was clearly an admirer of the great scientists :lol:

Getting back to Raph -
Was the annoyance you mention because he was being called George Raph instead of plain Raph, or because he was being called George Raph instead of Georges Raph?

#24 fines

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 10:29

Originally posted by David McKinney
Getting back to Raph -
Was the annoyance you mention because he was being called George Raph instead of plain Raph, or because he was being called George Raph instead of Georges Raph?

Good question, as I'm sure he wasn't called Georges only in South America!

But most of all, a big "Thank you!" to Pablo Vignone - this is incredible stuff! One small point, though: is this all the info you have on the non-finishers?

#25 alessandro silva

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 13:56

Originally posted by David McKinney



Getting back to Raph -
Was the annoyance you mention because he was being called George Raph instead of plain Raph, or because he was being called George Raph instead of Georges Raph?


Thank you for the Hortals.
I think the sense was that he did not want to be called Georges or George. Fines is right, a lot of people would call him Georges anyway.
A paragraph in the recent Wimille books reads as follows:
"There remains one footnote to the life of Raph: the fact that many motor racing histories, and indeeed many journaliistic articles during his lifetime, have assigned him the forename "Georges". Why this is, remains obscure: it may be some unintentionmal confusion with the name of the actor, George Raft. What is certain is that Raph annotated a newspaper cutting in his personal scrapbook with the following words: I do not know why, in North and South America, Georges is added as forename before Raph. When I point this out, journalists reply that they add this forename when they have no others to put! [cfr. fines] . As for Gordini he insisted until his death to call him Ralf [which is very Italian]."

#26 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 16:48

To Alessandro:
* I haven't got the number of Platé. I will look for it.
* There were, as it was well remarked by David four Hortal drivers following Cástulo. And, indeed, they all were Cástulo sons.
* The same records mentioned Pessatti twice and Pessati once. AFAIK, the first is the correct spell.

To fines:
* That's all I know from the records. I get the "Memoria y Balance" of the CDA (Comisión Deportiva Automovilística, Racing Sporting Commision) which runs from March 14th, 1946, to May 31st, 1947. I am looking to get some other records.

#27 Kvadrat

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 01:37

Originally posted by alessandro silva

i) Enrico Platé's race number for the Temporada races


Here's 1947 participants list according VeloceToday.


No   Driver			   Car				 Entrant 



2	Italo Bizio		  Alfa Romeo 2900 A   Italo Bizio 

4	Francisco Culligham  Maserati 6CM 1.5	Francisco Culligham 

6	Giacomo Palmieri	 Maserati 6CM 1.5	Scuderia Milano 

8	Juan Galvez		  Alfa Romeo P3	   Juan Galvez 

12   Pablo L. Pesatti	 Alfa Romeo 8C 35	Pablo L. Pesatti 

14   Carlo Pintacuda	  Maserati 4CL 1.5	Scuderia Milano 

16   Luigi Villoresi	  Maserati 4CL 1.5	Scuderia Ambrosiana 

20   Oscar A. Galvez	  Alfa Romeo 308 3.8  Oscar A. Galvez 

22   George Raph		  Maserati 6C 1.5	 Écurie Naphtra Course  

24   Francisco C. Landi   Alfa Romeo 308 3.0  Francisco C. Landi 

26   Pascual Puoppolo	 Maserati 8CL 3.0	Pascual Puoppolo 

28   Achille Varzi		Alfa Romeo 308 3.0  Écurie NaphtraCourse 

DNS  Amadeo Bignami	   Maserati 6CM		Scuderia Milano 

DNS  Enrico Plate		 Maserati 4CL		Scuderia Milano

I don't know if Plate and Bignami arrived in Argentina but did not start. In numbers list 10 and 18 are skipped so these numbers were reserved for not presented Scuderia Milano cars.

#28 Kvadrat

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 09:11

Originally posted by Pablo Vignone

Gran Premio Internacional Ciudad de Rosario
2 de marzo de 1947
Organised by the Rosario station of the ACA
Circuit of 2.811,20 meters.

First Heat, "Premio Juan M.Garat"
...

Second Heat, Premio "Carlos M.Brosutti"
...

Premio Estímulo a la Mecánica Nacional
...


Pablo, please add Grand Prix results for this event. I hope they contain some new information.

#29 Twin Window

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 13:12

I have a trophy from the 1966 Temporada, which was won by Charlie Crichton-Stuart for his second place behind winner Eric Offenstadt in the fourth and final round.

He won the series, I think I'm right in saying, driving a Brabham entered by SMART (Stirling Moss Automobile Racing Team)

TW

#30 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 01:40

I have a trophy from the 1966 Temporada, which was won by Charlie Crichton-Stuart for his second place behind winner Eric Offenstadt in the fourth and final round.



Indeed he was. Offenstadt drove a Lola, and Stuart ended only one tenth of a second behind. They were fighting for the second place, but with two laps to go the leader, Andrea Vianini, made a mistake, and suddenly they were deciding who would be the winner. Vianini dropped to sixth, in third came Cacho Fangio, 1s5 behind Offenstadt.

The race was held in the Mar del Plata Golf circuit. With his win in Mendoza and second places at Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata, Stuart got 21 points, two more than Christopher Irwin, and five in excess of Offenstadt and Nasif Estéfano. The points scale: 9-6-5-4-3-2 for the first six.

#31 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 01:48

Gran Premio Internacional de Rosario
March 2nd, 1947
1º Achille Varzi, Alfa Romeo nº 18, 1h33m03s6, 50 laps
2º Luigi Villoresi, Maserati nº 16, 1h33m04s
3º Oscar Gálvez, Alfa Romeo nº 10, 1h33m16s, 49 laps
4º Francisco Landi, Alfa Romeo nº 14, 1h34m17s6, 48 laps
5º Juan Gálvez, Alfa Romeo nº 12, 1h33m41s1
6º Juan Manuel Fangio, Chevrolet nº 54, 1h33m47s5, 47 laps
7º Clemar Bucci, Cadillac nº 40, 1h35m45s5
8º Italo Bizio, Alfa Romeo nº 2, 1h34m33s6, 46 laps
9º Ernesto Nanni, Ford V8 nº 41, 1h34m57s7
10º Mario Sessarego, Chevrolet nº 38, 1h34m59s1
11º George Raph, Maserati nº 8, 1h34m14s6, 39 laps
12º Giácomo Palmieri, Maserati nº 6, 1h12m38s7, 36 laps
DNF: Benedicto Campos, Pablo Pessatti and Pedro J.Llanos
Winner average: 90,150 km/h

#32 Kvadrat

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 01:36

Only two local drivers could start in main race. Only two and not neccessary the best? Mario Sessarego finished 3rd in Mecanica Nacional final in 1st Buenos Aires event and Clemar Bucci was 6th. Both men were elected to start in the Grand Prix.

If Pablo's information on the second Buenos Aires event is really complete, local drivers did not start in this GP at all. In 1948 Mecanica Nacional car were banned from participation in main races. I guess that already after first 1947 race Grand Prix drivers asked organizers to change this rule to prevent problems with slow local cars.

BUT in Rosario race 5 or even 6 Mecanica Nacional drievers started in GP: Fangio, Bucci, Nanni, Sessarego, Campos, Llanos. Who was Llanos and which car he drove? He didn't race in any of support races.

#33 Kvadrat

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 03:04

In 1947, 1948 and 1949 Pedro Llano raced only in Rosario races so I think he was just an amateur Maserati owner from this city.

#34 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 31 July 2004 - 03:29

In all those drivers name, I don´t see my father name.. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

#35 fines

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Posted 31 July 2004 - 10:07

Does that mean your old man raced in (one of) these events, Enrique? :confused:


__________________
This is Michael
Here comes Michael

Phillip Boa & the Voodooclub at the Ex-Haus Sommerbühne in Trier, July 30 - thank goodness some things never change!

#36 Repco von Brabham

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Posted 31 July 2004 - 15:25

In fact, my father races with a car Volpi-Chevrolet ( a body cloned from Maserati body) in 1952 around the circuits near Bahia Blanca and Mar del Plata.., Necochea also..

After that, he was retire and he began to advise and organised races and events.., and push very hard and very strong for the build of the Autodrome of Bahìa Blanca, one of the most speedy tracks of Argentina... even in the present day she has been "deformated" with ugly schikanes..

Because that, one of the corners of this circuit was named "Enrique Benamo Senior".

#37 Kvadrat

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 01:26

Enrique, by 1952, Temporada abandoned other Argentine venues than new Buenos Aires track, so your father took part not in international but in national races. There's very little information about Mecanica Nacional races in early 50s, so if you have some memorabilia of your father please share with us. It would be priceless information.

#38 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 16:59

I just noticed this on ebay:

"DVD 'Las Temporadas 1947-1972' Maserati Ferrari"

Go here:

http://www.ebay.com/

and then search for "Las Temporadas" in quotes

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

#39 Kvadrat

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:32

I don't think it's about Argentinian International races of 1947-1952 but probably on Ferrari's and Maserati's racing seasons (Las Temporadas) from 1947 to 1972.

Advertisement

#40 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 00:50

Yes, it does appear to be on the Argentinian races...have a look...

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

Vince H.

#41 Kvadrat

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 03:47

Yes, it's definitely covers 1947-1952 Temporada races.

Unfortunately seller accepts only PayPal which does not work here in Russia.

#42 Rob29

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 07:59

Sorry Vladimir,l think I have just bought this at the 'buy now' price + shipping.Will yet you know if it arrives!

#43 Rob29

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 18:11

Video arrived to-day.It has some interesting material,though a lot of the film is of poor quality,most in black & white.
Video was produced only last year(2005). www.autoar.net/g@autoar.net

#44 Martin Dewey

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 15:21

Does anyone know the origin of the points system used in the 1968 Temporada Series (mentioned on p338, Vol 8 of "A Record of GP & Voiturette Racing")?.

13 - 8 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 0.8 - 0.6 - 0.4 - 0.2 - 0.1 to the first eleven finishers is certainly one of the oddest systems I've seen. I'd love to know the rationale behind adopting this system (could it be based on the mathematical sequence of Fibonacci numbers, perhaps?).

#45 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 03:15

I don't know exactly the points system in that Temporada, but I can teel you that the system you pointed was the one used in Argentina's domestic Sport Prototipo series (and maybe Mecánica Argentina Formula 1) during 1972: 13-8-5-3-2-1 for the first six, on the base that the winner has the same points than second and third classified together and so...

#46 bschenker

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 07:18

The usual international system:

9-6-4-3-2-1


.

#47 john winfield

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 16:47

Forgive me if this has been posted elsewhere but I have just noticed this Temporada film on YouTube, one of four, I think, posted by Sergio Tenzi.


Edited by john winfield, 06 September 2011 - 16:48.