127 replies to this topic

[bill moffat]

These days we are used to the concept of disposable formulae. The scenario is familiar, with a blast of publicity we hear of a wonderful new concept. The engine manufacturer provides some backing and we are about to see the rebirth of a formula that will emulate the heady days of Kent FF. Massive grids are expected and satellite TV coverage is promised. 2 years later and grids of 6 cars make Formula Whatever non-viable, a short obituary appears in Autosport.

Not so in the old days when formulae tended to stick, but F100 was an exception. F100 was the brainchild of MRD who were keen to cash in on the incredible popularity of Formula Ford. So a concept was born. Pretty two seater bodywork, 1300cc Ford engine and Hewland transaxle. A great deal of publicity and backing from Firestone, this was going to be something big...

But it crashed. Given the contemporary success of FF and the subsequent popularity of Sports 2000 did it deserve to die? . Royale, Beattie and a few others got stuck in but the writing was on the wall. So why did it fail, I guess the answer lies in the fact that the cars were underpowered and relatively expensive, any views? Do any cars survive?

[ian senior]

I think I'm right in saying that the formula was partly a reaction by John Webb to the prevailing scruffiness of the Clubman's Formula cars at the time. And they were front-engined too - SO old fashioned. Many spectators rather liked Clubmans - the racing was usually good. But Webb though he would be able to drag more punters through the gates if there were some pretty sportscars for them to look at, in addition to the expensive 2 litre ones. I think it failed because the Clubman's chaps got their act together and turned out some well-presented cars, the F100 ones sounded weedy and were so slow they presented no spectacle at all ( I saw them race once nad nearly fell asleep), and also because - let's face it - no-one really wanted the formula. But I did think the Sturgess cars looked nice.

[petefenelon]

John Webb disposable formulae? Formula Turbo Ford, anyone?;) How many laps did that Reynard abomination do? Ummm, and was Webb behind the alcohol-fuelled (I mean the cars!) Formula Talbot, too?

[Rob29]

Sports 2000 was a latter ,1977 version of the same idea.
Other John Webb 'creations'
Formula Ford
F5000
F.Atlantic
FF2000
F.Talbot
Group 8
Aurora F1
Thundersports
BHC(after webb)
F.First
F.Forward

All now gone exept FF!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Rob29
Sports 2000 was a latter ,1977 version of the same idea.
Other John Webb 'creations'
Formula Ford
F5000
F.Atlantic
FF2000
F.Talbot
Group 8
Aurora F1
Thundersports
BHC(after webb)
F.First
F.Forward

All now gone exept FF!

F5000.... SCCA FA adapted very lightly, not really a "creation" - although the "Formula Britain" they were talking about before 5000 - 3.0 British production engines including the Triumph straight six [presumably bored/stroked], the Ford V6, and the Rover V8 [presumably short-stroke], according to the programme for the Rothmans 50000 - sounds like a recipe for disaster) Similarly Atlantic and SCCA FB were pretty close - so call them imports rather than creations.

(I do wonder if Webb saw Atlantic as a way of using up the 1600cc F2 cars that were going to become available at the start of 2.0l F2 a year after Atlantic got started?....)

Gp 8 is just a posh way of saying "races open to any car that meets any FIA formula" - all formula cars complied with Group 8 in the FIA classification, the different formulae being defined under the umbrella rules of G8. G9 is pure-libre specials, IIRC.

. Aurora F1 - damn good idea... and Thundersports too, no problem at all with that.

Of the clunkers:

FFirsts looked ugly, sounded ugly and promoted ugly driving. I was glad to see the back of them. I think they saw out their days supporting pickup trucks on the Eurocar bills didn't they?

FForward - er, yeah, one-make FF2000 essentially, tanked in Britain very rapidly but I think ran on in Asia for years and morphed into FAsia as the cars changed slightly?

[RTH]

F100 was not that bad an idea it was at least multi- manufacturer, but they were bigger and heavier than FF with the fully enveloping bodywork - the 1300cc engine was really too feeble and the price of the cars was relatively huge - and critically it was at a time when we had full and indeed oversubscribed grids at nearly all the races , and a dozen starters then looked like failure - now its a big grid !

[bill moffat]

Thanks gents. You seem to have confirmed my view that (whatever the formula) ultimate success depends upon entertaining the public and pulling in the crowds. The cars need to look and sound wonderful, be reasonably fast yet uncomplicated (ie a cheapish and therefore accessible formula) and be designed to promote close racing. Think F5000 and you have it.

F100 of course fell at every one of these fences. Many other current formulae also fail these parameters and are on the terminal list. Incidentally does anyone else share my view that the Daytona prototypes are pig-ugly, unspectacular and represent a major step backwards ?

I just hope that the SCV8 cars succeed. Awesome looks, thumping great V8's and plenty off opposite lock, my sort of car. Let's hope that we see some reasonable grids as the year progresses.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Thanks gents. You seem to have confirmed my view that (whatever the formula) ultimate success depends upon entertaining the public and pulling in the crowds. The cars need to look and sound wonderful, be reasonably fast yet uncomplicated (ie a cheapish and therefore accessible formula) and be designed to promote close racing. Think F5000 and you have it.

F100 of course fell at every one of these fences. Many other current formulae also fail these parameters and are on the terminal list. Incidentally does anyone else share my view that the Daytona prototypes are pig-ugly, unspectacular and represent a major step backwards ?

I just hope that the SCV8 cars succeed. Awesome looks, thumping great V8's and plenty off opposite lock, my sort of car. Let's hope that we see some reasonable grids as the year progresses.

DPs are an attempt to turn sports-car racing into an IRL/NASCAR cross - then again given the France family involvement in it (they own it and one of the scions drives in it) what would you expect? Low-tech cars, a specious desire to promote "American" racing, low-tech engines, lots of spec components, the right to frig the rules to handicap anyone who's lagging/dominating, franchised chassis builders, no scope for teams to do much development of their own (they seem to be designed to be run by "crew chiefs" rather than "race engineers")

And they're ugly. I can forgive anything that increases the number of sports prototypes out there if they look good. But DPs just look stupid, the glasshouse is obese.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by bill moffat

I just hope that the SCV8 cars succeed. Awesome looks, thumping great V8's and plenty off opposite lock, my sort of car. Let's hope that we see some reasonable grids as the year progresses.

As a purist, SCV8 kind of bugs me - spec chassis, spec engines.... The Jag-bodied car looked fantastic, and maybe a grid of 20 of these things in 4-5 different body styles will be the greatest thing since SuperSaloons - but I reserve judgement. What I don't want is for SCV8 to kill the BTCC, which I think is poised on the verge of greatness again.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ian senior
.....I think it failed because the Clubman's chaps got their act together and turned out some well-presented cars, the F100 ones sounded weedy and were so slow they presented no spectacle at all ( I saw them race once nad nearly fell asleep).....

So Formula Vee will never work? 42hp... sound like Russian motorcycles... just look at that front suspension, and you say the rear is pure swing axle?

Keir? Where are you Keir? Zippy D... Damon Beck... eldougo...

[RTH]

I agree Pete, they are just one make fakes, we have been here before with those plastic Mondeo bodies over space frames all going the wrong way around Mallory, they became glorified stock car (in the UK sense) meetings.

In Todays Autosport Tony Hazelwood has re- purchased the DAF V8 - Rover he raced in the 70's and it is being restored to its original specification - Now those really were the days of exciting saloon car racing.

The name F100 came from the Firestone F100 radial road tyres they were all required to use.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by RTH

The name F100 came from the Firestone F100 radial road tyres they were all required to use.

Or perhaps because it was 1/50th as spectacular as F5000.;)

[Andrew Kitson]

Has no-one mentioned 'Multisports' yet? Another ugly 'Brands Hatch' creation, built by Van Diemen, an F.First with sports 2000/F100 style body. Supposed to be the modern F100 from the early 90s. Lasted about a season I think before being used by the schools.
At least F100 had some good drivers in it - Tom Pryce, Ray Allen, Stan Matthews, John Trevelyan, Nick Cole etc.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by RTH
.....The name F100 came from the Firestone F100 radial road tyres they were all required to use.

Here I was thinking it might have been named after the most popular tow car...

But then I remembered, "This is in England, Ray!" and came to my senses, realising that 'FZephyr' just wouldn't work!

[RTH]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Here I was thinking it might have been named after the most popular tow car...

But then I remembered, "This is in England, Ray!" and came to my senses, realising that 'FZephyr' just wouldn't work!

Actually here in UK in the late 80's/to late 90's we had Cortina Mk5/Sierra Pick-up trucks also called F100's

Multisports/Formula First with the transverse Escort XR3 engine/gearbox, were just so ugly - I can only think they must have got either Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder to OK the final styling

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH


Actually here in UK in the late 80's/to late 90's we had Cortina Mk5/Sierra Pick-up trucks also called F100's

Multisports/Formula First with the transverse Escort XR3 engine/gearbox, were just so ugly - I can only think they must have got either Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder to OK the final styling

I thought those pickups were "P100" here, not "F100".

But does anyone else remember the gruesome racing series for them? I think it was the last time Davina Galica and Keith Holland were seen racing on these shores, but I don't remember anyone else of any note driving them. They were apparently as beastly to drive as you might expect.

[RTH]

Many appologies you are of course quite right they were P100's - what was I thinking of !

[RTH]

Just to get my own back just a little it was Divina Galica - she hated it being spelt wrongly ( probably still does! )

[Ross Stonefeld]

Formula Renault is the new Kent 1600 series. At Donnington they had the season finale of the French championship, the European championship, and the opening round of the British Winter Series. I counted 95+ cars. And thats with a good chunk of guys not showing up. Contrast that to the Festival which had I think 46 or 47 entries

[Ray Bell]

Fact is, FF should have been FRenault all along, the R16 motor would have been a much better choice for power, weight and durability than the old Kent lump.

And I think Renault would have got behind it every bit as well as Ford, if not better...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Formula Renault is the new Kent 1600 series. At Donnington they had the season finale of the French championship, the European championship, and the opening round of the British Winter Series. I counted 95+ cars. And thats with a good chunk of guys not showing up. Contrast that to the Festival which had I think 46 or 47 entries

I really liked the 1721cc open-chassis FRenault. The cars looked great (ok, some of them were hangovers from FF2000 thinking, but that never hurt anyone, and it used to be a good formula!) and went pretty well, although the transmission was a bit fragile IIRC!.

The 2-litre Tatuus chassis was a gurner as far as appearance was concerned, although this year's update kit looks pretty good. It's still a good clubbie formula that seems to get good grids in the UK, but I think some of the sparkle is out of it.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You're talking about BARC Renaults yeah? I was talking about TOCA and the Euro championshiops

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
You're talking about BARC Renaults yeah? I was talking about TOCA and the Euro championshiops

Yes, it was the previous FRenault which the BARC kept on for a few years as a clubbie series after the "real" FRenault went (yawn) single-chassis - I wasn't aware they were still running it!

[Ray Bell]

When we talk about formulae and cars, it doesn't mean we're talking about race series...

TOCA? Isn't that tintops?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well I was talking about series, because there's huge differences between the Formula Renault (club) championship organised by BARC, and the one run as part of the TOCA tour. Just like the difference between FOTA F3 and ARP F3

[Ray Bell]

So I guess they are built to different formulae?

[eldougo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by petefenelon
[B]

I thought those pickups were "P100" here, not "F100".
_________________________________________

They are called F100 UTE out here in Oz

[bill moffat]

Going back to my original post do any F100's survive? . Or were they all converted into golf buggies and ride-on mowers....

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
So I guess they are built to different formulae?

Come on Ray, you can do better. BARC is the club Formula (which I indicated) for older cars (which pete indicated) and TOCA Is the latest spec, professional series.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Going back to my original post do any F100's survive? . Or were they all converted into golf buggies and ride-on mowers....

I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect that if any cars survive they would not be in pure, unadulterated F100 form. They would hardly be competitive in any present day race series (in fact, they might be a definite liability, being so damned slow, and anyway you can't get Firestone F100 tyres any more.....). Some were converted after the formula's demise to run in other forms of sports car racing - I remember Mark Cole's Sturgess taking on a new lease of life with some fat tyres and a decent engine.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Come on Ray, you can do better. BARC is the club Formula (which I indicated) for older cars (which pete indicated) and TOCA Is the latest spec, professional series.

My point is that it's the formula that determines how the car is put together, not whether it's eligible for a series.

It may well be that it's eligible for the series, but only because it complies with the formula specified by the regulations governing the series. The regulations governing the makeup of the car are the formula.

[Mallory Dan]

Weren't the F100s deemed eligible a few years back for the RJB 2=Litre Group 6 series, or am I mixing them up with S2000s. ISTR there was a rule that they had to have had some form of 'big-league' history to compete against the B19s/T210s etc, and that if the F100s had been at a meeting that supported such an event they were OK and allowed to race. Am I dreaming this ?

On this point I recall a chap called Jack Paterson entered a few early S2000 races with a converted Royale RP4 F100 car. Maybe others did too, as in 77 they'd have only been 6-7 years old. BTW does anyone else think the Lola T490 was a dead ringer for a T290 ?

[RTH]

Dan, I think you remember it correctly and that they were invited to join in - I suspect only to make up grid numbers.

When Sports 2000 started as a quick and cheapest way in Lola dusted off the design drawings from the earlier Group 6 car and used that as a basis - why indeed they do look so alike.

I don't recall seeing any F100 cars in the last 20 years, the Royale was quite an attractive car - I wonder if anyone can turn up an old photo? Pity really it wasn't quite the right time, I think the general idea was a good one but it was all badly handled and they made the common mistake that club drivers are made of money.

[Cirrus]

A Royale, yesterday.

(well, 1970 actually - is that Lydden?)

[Coogar]

Just a thought regarding all the above, but do you think it is possible that single chassis formula are so popular because none of the designers/manuafcturers feel their creations capable of racing against anybody else's ?
This thinking has certainly given rise to some pretty horrible (and slow) one make saloon classes....What else, after all, could race against a Proton and lose ?
More worryingly perhaps, has public attention now moved so completely to the driver - the spotty 'erbert with the bullying dad and the F1 ambitions - that there is no longer any interest in what, to me, is the whole point of the sport....a competition between different CARS ?
Maybe I'm just strange. Maybe F3000 is now brilliant, maybe Proton Coupes are too........
Maybe not.

[RTH]

Cirrus, - well done nice photo, - they were quite a swoopy nicely crafted body, its a pity , if things had been a bit different this formula might easily still be going today.

Everyone seems to think they can make a fortune out of motor racing in the first year.

Truth is, when something new is introduced it needs to start very inexpensively and build up a competitor following and then a spectator interest, - to be nurtured , listen to the entrants, - not to attempt to rip everybody off from day one.

[petefenelon]

Further to comments about SCV8 - it's off, at least until 2005.
http://www.scv8.co.u...fm/flag/2/id/73

(File with Premier 1 Grand Prix as a "loads of hype but no races" formula?)

[RTH]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Further to comments about SCV8 - it's off, at least until 2005.
http://www.scv8.co.u...fm/flag/2/id/73

(File with Premier 1 Grand Prix as a "loads of hype but no races" formula?)

Their excuses :- a lot of meaningless waffle, ( that might have come out of Downing Street) - which I read as code for..................lack of entries.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH


Their excuses :- a lot of meaningless waffle, ( that might have come out of Downing Street) - which I read as code for..................lack of entries.

'T'would seem so. Team Dynamics had signed up for X-type jags, Vic Lee for Peugeot 407s and Team Varta for Vauxhalls. They were theoretically committed to four cars apiece....

The annoying thing is the Mini Miglias and Se7ens were due to support SCV8, I hope they find a good home as they're some of the most fun racing around.

[bill moffat]

..and so SCV8 will perhaps become the latest victim of the scenario which I described when opening this thread.

Despite my enthusiasm for the concept I think the that the press release was excrutatingly awful and suspect that we have seen the last of this formula. Wouldn't mind converting the Jag into a road car though..

[RTH]

How about a Supersaloons class again where you can build anything you like under the standard cars profile- with no two cars looking alike - these races were the pick of the day in the early seventies - humble looking saloons with F1, F2 and Can-Am engines under the bonnet , when- 'anything could happen in the next half hour' . It was good stuff.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH
How about a Supersaloons class again where you can build anything you like under the standard cars profile- with no two cars looking alike - these races were the pick of the day in the early seventies - humble looking saloons with F1, F2 and Can-Am engines under the bonnet , when- 'anything could happen in the next half hour' . It was good stuff.

Agreed - splendid cars! Actually many of them had racing chassis under the bodywork too ;)

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Cirrus
A Royale, yesterday.

(well, 1970 actually - is that Lydden?)

That is a very pretty car; how many were made?

PdeRL

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by VAR1016


That is a very pretty car; how many were made?

PdeRL

Rather gorgeous isn't it ? The Jag tow car is a bit special as well, I presume the partially clad bloke on the right is the driver, although he is busy examining the contents of his Lydden burger.

I reckon they made 11 RP4's in 1970 of which 6 were specific for F100. A further 4 RP4A's were built the following year. This design formed the basis for the 2 Litre RP17 sports racer which was altogether a more serious tool.....

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by bill moffat


Rather gorgeous isn't it ? The Jag tow car is a bit special as well, I presume the partially clad bloke on the right is the driver, although he is busy examining the contents of his Lydden burger.

I reckon they made 11 RP4's in 1970 of which 6 were specific for F100. A further 4 RP4A's were built the following year. This design formed the basis for the 2 Litre RP17 sports racer which was altogether a more serious tool.....

I once had one of those Jags: a pound to a penny that the Royale has more grip (could it have less??)

I want one (but please with a 1.5 litre B.R.M. V-8 in the back).

PdeRL

[RJH]

I'm sure that most of the Royales will have survived, but I can also confirm that an F100 Lenham is still lurking in Kent, somewhere down the list of things to restore. In retrospect F100 was allways going to be problematical with that 1300cc engine. But there none so blind!

[RTH]

Originally posted by VAR1016


I once had one of those Jags: a pound to a penny that the Royale has more grip (could it have less??)

I want one (but please with a 1.5 litre B.R.M. V-8 in the back).

PdeRL

Alan Cornock is still in the business - I bet someone still has the moulds , - hey, how about a new championship for F100 cars now if we .........................

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by RTH


Alan Cornock is still in the business - I bet someone still has the moulds , - hey, how about a new championship for F100 cars now if we .........................

OK, I'll order a batch of B.R.M. fuel-injected V-8s and six-speed gearboxes from Hall & Hall - I've got my wallet here, now where did I put it.....?

PdeRL

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


So Formula Vee will never work? 42hp... sound like Russian motorcycles... just look at that front suspension, and you say the rear is pure swing axle?

Keir? Where are you Keir? Zippy D... Damon Beck... eldougo...

Formula Vee absolutely work!! Amazing racing with 40 - 55 Rear wheel HP! This racing is sometimes better cause it´s real exciting racing, they raced at usual in large groups, slipstreams in the straight and so on...The swing axle didn´t or correct don´t a matter cause they fix the problems from the swing axles with camber limited device like the zeroroll.

New race class in US is spec Miata, not so expensive racing, the miatas has a real well handling

[petefenelon]

Doesn't matter how many horsepower a racing car has as long as it's a bit too much for the chassis. 50bhp is clearly slightly too much for a Vee ;)