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Formula 1 which became Formula 3000


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#1 Thodore33

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 18:33

Hy,

I have just read, in the results of the F3000 championship 1985, that some Formula 1 were entered during the first season of that serie :confused: :confused: :confused: :

PMC Motorsport - Williams FW08 - Thierry Tassin
PMC Motorsport - Williams FW08 - Lamberto Léoni

Barron racing - Tyrrell 012 - Claudio Langes
Barron racing - Tyrrell 012 - Roberto Moreno

Roger Cowman- Arrows A6 - Slim Borgudd

I am very surprised :eek: .
Does anyone possess pictures of that five formula 1/3000 ?
What were the most important évolution between the F1 car and F3000 one ?

Thanks

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#2 Michael Müller

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 18:52

That's not surprising at all, because F3000 was created to find a home for all obsolete F1 cars...

#3 petefenelon

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 19:43

...except that running half a GP distance with a rev-limited engine, most of the fuel tank of an F1 car was just a waste of space - the successful F3000 cars for the first few seasons were evolutions of F2 cars (March's 85B chassis was essentially a lightly-tweaked 842, there wasn't much between a Ralt RB20 and the last generation of RH6 either... - I think the AGS 3000s were pretty close to their last F2s as well)

Lola made the same mistake with their 1985 F3000 car, which (they weren't in F2 at the time) they were obliged to base upon the tub of a methanol-guzzling Indycar.

Later March and Lola F1 cars owed quite a bit to their F3000s, so the wheel came full circle in some ways ;)


Does anyone have a complete list of F3000/FNippon manufacturers yet?

March (and Leyton House)
Lola
Reynard
Ralt
AGS
Dallara
Monaco (ex-Dywa, so debatable if it belongs in the category below!)
Dome
Footwork
G-Force (in FNippon, anyway)


Converted F1s from
Williams
Tyrrell
Arrows

Any more?

I know Magnum and Vision both talked of turning their F3 tubs into F3000s at some point, were there other 'might have been' chassis?

F'rinstance Did Little Art ever consider sticking a DFV into the back of one of his F2s? (after all, he did claim that they could've taken one and he could've gone back into F1!)

#4 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 19:48

Originally posted by Théodore33

Does anyone possess pictures of that five formula 1/3000 ?


I'm unable to post pictures, but there is one of Leoni at Spa in Grand Prix International #94 (july 1985), page 15. Maybe someone else can post it for you ?

#5 PeterElleray

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 20:40

For what its worth, the 1985 Silverstone F3000 race entry for Roberto Moreno in a Tyrrell was almost a works entry...
I remember that the engineer and some mechanics were all Tyrell guys - mayve getting back into the groove after an extended break following Zandvoort 84...

#6 gdecarli

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 01:22

It's interesting to notice that Tyrrell 012 was used in F.3000 when it was still used in F.1:
  • F.1
    IIRC, first GP raced by Tyrrell 012 was at Zandvoort August 28th 1983, driven by Michele Alboreto. The last one was two years later, Austria GP August 18th 1985, driven by Stefan Bellof.
  • F.3000 (1985)
    Roberto Moreno had 4 entries: Silverstone (March 24), Thruxton (April 8), Estoril (April 20) and Vallelunga (May 12).
    Claudio Langes had 2 entries: Silverstone (March 24) and Thruxton (April 8)
Of course in F.1 it was a 012/014 model, but I think it was not so different from original 012...

I think it's the more recent car used in more than one different championship at the same time.

It's interesting to notice that obsolete F.1 cars should have become F.3000, but Tyrrell 012 last race in F.1 was 3 months later than the last race in F.3000...

Ciao,
Guido

#7 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 07:32

There are some pics at the F3000 part of FORIX for those with subscriptions.

Wasn't F3000 really created to cater for all the obsolete DFV engines , after they've been banned from use in F1?

Originally posted by petefenelon
Does anyone have a complete list of F3000/FNippon manufacturers yet?


I don't know if you count the BMW powered Wagner car. IIRC it never ran in F3000, but later resurfaced as a Group C2 car (!)...


And yes the F1 cum F3000 cars were never a factor in F3000 against the pukka F3000 cars.
The teams running them quickly found out this...

#8 Frank de Jong

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 08:17

Minardi made an F3000 too, forgotten if it has ever raced. The Wagner was most certainly built, don't know if it was tested or raced either. And then we had the Dywa (there must be another thread about Dywa somewhere).

#9 Michael Müller

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 08:26

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Wasn't F3000 really created to cater for all the obsolete DFV engines , after they've been banned from use in F1?

Well, Rainer's definition is better than mine, or may be we should say obsolete Cosworth DFV engined F1 cars.
I remember quite well the press reports of the time, and "using obsolete cars (and/or engines) in order to have a low-cost secondary racing series available" was the most used argumentation.

#10 petefenelon

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 10:17

Rainer, Frank.....

Never heard of the Wagner, sounds fascinating! - though what kind of engine did it use? straight-six (reduced-capacity M30 as used in the M1 etc?) - I don't recall any other contemporary BMW engines of about 3.0 litres at that time - M60 and M62 V8s were a bit too late!

Couple of semi-random thoughts...

I vaguely recall some rumours of the Lamborghini V8 from the Urraco being turned into an F3000 race engine too...

...and when did F3000 finally ban everything other than 90-degree V8s?

#11 petefenelon

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 10:18

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg

Wasn't F3000 really created to cater for all the obsolete DFV engines , after they've been banned from use in F1?


Yes. Just after Bernie bought a job lot from Cosworth, in fact ;)

#12 petefenelon

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 11:32

Originally posted by gdecarli

I think it's the more recent car used in more than one different championship at the same time.

It's interesting to notice that obsolete F.1 cars should have become F.3000, but Tyrrell 012 last race in F.1 was 3 months later than the last race in F.3000...

Ciao,
Guido


What about the first year of the IRL, when it still ran to CART chassis and engine regs? -- not quite the same, I admit ;)



#13 Marcel Visbeen

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 11:37

Originally posted by petefenelon


I vaguely recall some rumours of the Lamborghini V8 from the Urraco being turned into an F3000 race engine too...


Motori Moderni where working on a F3000 engine based on the V8 from the Jalpa. Don't know what came of it. (as for that matter of the Minardi F3000)

In april 1985, at the launch of the Minardi F1 and F3000 chassis Carlo Chiti was quoted:

Our company signed a contract for a collaboration with Lamborghini which gives us the right to create a special F3000 engine derived from the V8 four valves per cylinder, featured on the Jalpa. Apart from the usual procedures necessary in the preparing of an engine for competitions, we had to reduce the engine size by 500cc.



Minardi would receive the engine as soon as it was ready, while they wanted to be able to have it available for other teams by July.

#14 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 12:49

Originally posted by petefenelon
Never heard of the Wagner, sounds fascinating! - though what kind of engine did it use? straight-six (reduced-capacity M30 as used in the M1 etc?) - I don't recall any other contemporary BMW engines of about 3.0 litres at that time - M60 and M62 V8s were a bit too late!


Yes absolutely right, the Wagner used a M1 type straight-six. I don't remember if it was sleeved down or had a shorter stroke crank. IRCC it was meant that Peter Oberndorfer would have driven the device.

I can probably post some pics in later today.

And absolutely right too, how convenient that Bernie happened to buy all those Cosworth's when this new FIA series was created :D

#15 Paolo

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 13:45

Alas, that Minardi never raced.

#16 Falcadore

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 14:48

Originally posted by petefenelon
...except that running half a GP distance with a rev-limited engine, most of the fuel tank of an F1 car was just a waste of space - the successful F3000 cars for the first few seasons were evolutions of F2 cars (March's 85B chassis was essentially a lightly-tweaked 842, there wasn't much between a Ralt RB20 and the last generation of RH6 either... - I think the AGS 3000s were pretty close to their last F2s as well)

Lola made the same mistake with their 1985 F3000 car, which (they weren't in F2 at the time) they were obliged to base upon the tub of a methanol-guzzling Indycar.

Later March and Lola F1 cars owed quite a bit to their F3000s, so the wheel came full circle in some ways ;)


Does anyone have a complete list of F3000/FNippon manufacturers yet?

March (and Leyton House)
Lola
Reynard
Ralt
AGS
Dallara
Monaco (ex-Dywa, so debatable if it belongs in the category below!)
Dome
Footwork
G-Force (in FNippon, anyway)


Converted F1s from
Williams
Tyrrell
Arrows

Any more?

I know Magnum and Vision both talked of turning their F3 tubs into F3000s at some point, were there other 'might have been' chassis?

F'rinstance Did Little Art ever consider sticking a DFV into the back of one of his F2s? (after all, he did claim that they could've taken one and he could've gone back into F1!)



In 1987 Formula Australia was created as a long term replacement for Formula Atlantic as a premier open wheel class. The class finally went ahead in 1989 as Formula Holden with the first season. The class intended to use aluminium chassis wrapped around the 3.8 litre Holden (nee Buick) V6. Retired F3000 chassis were targetted immediately as a cheap source of cars in addition to local constructors.

The 1989 season featured the following chassis:
Cheetah Mk. 9
Elfin FA891
Liston BF3
March 87B
Ralt RT4
Ralt RT20
Ralt RT21
Shrike NB89H
Spa 001

The Cheetah Mk.9 was the latest and last in a long line of cars designed by Brian Shead. Similarly, the Elfin FA891 represented a single chassis that became the last the open wheeler to be built by Garrie Coopers company. The Spa was a design by Gerry Anderson, and a purpose built FHolden. The Shrikes were a TAFE College project grown insane wings, and in the end quite tidy race cars thank you very much.

For 1990 Chris Hocking started rebuilding Marches into his own cars, and a second Spa appeared.
Hocking 901
Liston BF3
Ralt RT4
Ralt RT20
Ralt RT21
Shrike NB89H
Spa 001
Spa 002

1991
Cheetah Mk.9
Hocking 901
Hocking 911
Liston BF3
Ralt RT20
Ralt RT21
Shrike NB89H
Spa 002
Spa 003

The first major change occurred in 1992 when the previously banned carbon fibre cars were allowed
1992
Cheetah Mk.9
Hocking 901
Hocking 911
Liston BF3
Ralt RT4
Ralt RT20
Ralt RT21
Reynard 90D
Shrike NB89H
Spa 003

1993
Cheetah Mk.9
Hocking 911
Liston BF3
Lola T91/50
Ralt RT20
Ralt RT21
Reynard 90D
Reynard 91D
Shrike NB89H

1994
Cheetah Mk.9
Hocking 911
Liston BF3
Lola T87/50
Ralt RT21
Ralt RT23
Reynard 90D
Reynard 91D
Reynard 92D
Shrike NB89H
Spa 002

1995
Dome F102
Hocking 911
Liston BF3
Lola T93/50
March 87B
Ralt RT21
Ralt RT23
Reynard 90D
Reynard 91D
Reynard 92D
Shrike NB89H

1996
Cheetah Mk.9
Dome F102
Hocking 911
March 87B
Ralt RT21
Ralt RT23
Reynard 90D
Reynard 91D
Reynard 92D
Shrike NB89H
Spa 002

1997
Cheetah Mk.9
Dome F102
Hocking 911
March 87B
Ralt RT21
Ralt RT23
Reynard 90D
Reynard 91D
Reynard 92D
Reynard 94D
Reynard 95D
Shrike NB89H

1998
Lola T91/50
Lola T93/50
March 87B
Ralt RT23
Reynard 90D
Reynard 91D
Reynard 92D
Reynard 94D
Reynard 95D

1999
Lola T93/50
March 87B
Ralt RT23
Reynard 90D
Reynard 91D
Reynard 92D
Reynard 94D
Reynard 95D
Shrike NB89H

2000
March 87B
Ralt RT21
Ralt RT23
Reynard 89D
Reynard 91D
Reynard 92D
Reynard 93D
Reynard 94D
Reynard 95D
Reynard 97D
Reynard 98D
Shrike NB89H

#17 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 18:18

Here's the 1986 Wagner F3000 with Peter Oberndorfer behind the wheel with the BMW straight-six behind his back.

Posted Image



Here is the Wagner in its reworked 1988 guise.

Posted Image

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 19:31

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Here's the 1986 Wagner F3000 with Peter Oberndorfer behind the wheel with the BMW straight-six behind his back.



Here is the Wagner in its reworked 1988 guise.


Many thanks for those - fascinating! - looks like the GpC body has literally been dropped on top of the old F3000 chassis ;)


That's a Loooooooooooooooooooong wheelbase car for a single-seater - reminds me of when Heidegger offered John Barnard a straight-six turbo and he was having none of it "Engine man's engine!" I think was his dismissal of it ;)

Did it ever get as far as testing and was it abandoned for handling reasons - I would imagine it didn't like going round corners much!?

#19 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 19:33

Another former Formula 1 car used in F3000 was the RAM 04, which I believe was a thinly disguised RAM 03.

Posted Image
Eliseo Salazar in the RAM 04 during 1986.

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#20 Frank de Jong

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 20:34

I've got a note that the Minardi tried to qualify twice in 1986 (!). It was based on a 283B F2.

#21 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 00:20

Somewhat OT, I'll admit but it's related vaguely.

I've watched the F3000's on Speed TV for last couple of seasons and get the distinct impression that they're regarded as pretty weak sisters on the race track and a nuisance in the paddock on a GP weekend. Shame.

I've posted here 'cause I think that they're relatively cool and would like to know how their current performance would stack up against bonifide F1 cars of yesteryear? When I'm watching them on the tube, I like to think that the 3k's are delivering performance on a par with normal aspo cars pre-ground affect days. Similar to 1976, '73...? Comments?

#22 petefenelon

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 01:33

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
Somewhat OT, I'll admit but it's related vaguely.

I've watched the F3000's on Speed TV for last couple of seasons and get the distinct impression that they're regarded as pretty weak sisters on the race track and a nuisance in the paddock on a GP weekend. Shame.

I've posted here 'cause I think that they're relatively cool and would like to know how their current performance would stack up against bonifide F1 cars of yesteryear? When I'm watching them on the tube, I like to think that the 3k's are delivering performance on a par with normal aspo cars pre-ground affect days. Similar to 1976, '73...? Comments?


Considering power-to-weight and downforce, I'd guess that they're probably closer to the flat-bottom normally-aspirated cars of 83-4 now.

The previous generation of F3000s were compared (last time I saw them racing at Silverstone in '99) to pre-ground effect 70s Cosworth F1s, so I reckon comparison of the current lot with the likes of the FW08, JS21, MP4/1D etc. is probably pretty fair. Except I'd guess that the F3000s are probably a hell of a lot stiffer tubs, run far less suspension travel and ride height and have much better tyres.

The trouble is, they have too much (aero and mechanical) grip for their power output. I reckon F3000/GP2/call it what you will wants to be up around 600bhp. The cars don't sound or look very exciting.

#23 Mallory Dan

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 15:20

ISTR the outfit that bought the Anson projects in around 85-86 (was it Pacemaker or something) had plans to convert an F3 car in to a 3000. Don't think it ever happened though.

#24 aerogi

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 16:51

I have some pictures from the Tyrrell and the Williams.
I will scan them and post them shortly!

#25 petefenelon

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 16:51

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
ISTR the outfit that bought the Anson projects in around 85-86 (was it Pacemaker or something) had plans to convert an F3 car in to a 3000. Don't think it ever happened though.


I think Pacemaker might have also been involved with either Magnum or Vision at some point. Maybe I'm getting stories crossed up here - I checked in Hodges last night and he mentioned that both firms had F3000 in mind with their F3s.

Gary Anderson did a couple of the early Reynard F3000s (I think the 90 car?) - but "outsiders" were never popular there and later cars were much more Reynard-y (or Oastler-y perhaps). (Same way Wiet Huidekoper's FFord for them was 'orphaned' and they want back to develop the previous car).

#26 RDV

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 17:25

posted by petefenelon
The previous generation of F3000s were compared (last time I saw them racing at Silverstone in '99) to pre-ground effect 70s Cosworth F1s, so I reckon comparison of the current lot with the likes of the FW08, JS21, MP4/1D etc. is probably pretty fair. Except I'd guess that the F3000s are probably a hell of a lot stiffer tubs, run far less suspension travel and ride height and have much better tyres.



in fact a bit faster than that, aerodynamics were pretty much equivalent to F1 @ 87/88, was more limited by the engines compared to the turbos in F1... in its last evolution on Cosworth DFY's, DFV's and AC's they were @ 550bhp, and when the FIA cut the difusers in F1 at Catalunya a F3000 would have been on the 8th row of the grid if in the F1 race.... and of course the Avon tyres used were pretty hard as a spec tyre.

The new series from 96 is pretty well emasculated, running de-rated (@450bhp) Zytecs (nee Judd V8), which is in turn derived from the Honda V8, and were spec cars , with no mods permitted to chassis , compared to previous total liberty within the rules.

First iteration on Lola's classic pigs, unloved by engineers and drivers, with bad handling & bad aero, made worse when front wing found to be illegal at first race of season (Nurburgring 96) , causing entire grid to reset them on starting grid.

Third version (due to expire this year) has improved aero from the 96 version and much better tyres.

The PMC FW08 were lightly modified to cater to narrower side-pods in F3000 regs and wings also trimmed , the team succumbed to usual promised finance not materializing. The first outing at Silverstone on inaugural race an embarassment for the team, as pit equipment not ready, and cars delivered on eve of race, due to late arrival of cheque.... as there were pitstops due to rain lack of working airguns led to uncommonly long halt .

Thruxton the following week similarily not very effective as spec dampers supplied with car found to have droop limiters on dampers to cater to previous ground effect body (the 85s were running with flat bottoms), lack of droop travel made car almost impossible to drive over bumps (compared to Silverstones then billiard smooth track) , causing Tassin and Leoni to have a plethora of spins.

Due to bad performance of cars Tassin dropped out , and Leoni only did Vallelunga , with a near write off after going off . Whole team dissolved after that , with bank reclaiming cars as surety.

The Barron run Tyrrel only ready for Estoril & Vallelunga if I recall, similarly strapped for cash, never sorrted out adequately , despite Moreno doing his usual tight rope act with badly handling cars.

I presume the practice came in good stead for his miraculous qualification at Monaco with the Andrea Moda, probably the second worst team in F1 after Life.

#27 aerogi

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 17:32

Here are the pictures I've promised!

Enjoy!

This is The Tyrrell 012 of Roberto Morena.
This is taken at the very first F3000 race at Silverstone (March 1985)
Posted Image

And this is L. Leoni in the Williams FW07.
This one is also taken at the very first F3000 race at Silverstone (March 1985)
Posted Image

And here is the F3000 Minardi from 1986, this chassis appeared twice in 1986, and failed to qualify both times,
in the hands of Bertuzzi and Corradi respectively.
Posted Image

#28 petefenelon

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 18:43

THat's an FW08 Leoni's in - just a typo ;)

I notice the "Amati" sponsorship on the car. Giovanna Amati was heiress to some Italian fortune or other - is there any familial link between that sponsorship and that lady?

#29 RDV

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 18:48

petefenelon

...is there any familial link between that sponsorship and that lady?



No , was Vongole Amati, Italy's biggest suplier of clams (fished (?) off Turkey!) , found in Spaguetti alle vongole everywhere....

#30 dolomite

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 19:21

Originally posted by RDV

The PMC FW08 were lightly modified to cater to narrower side-pods in F3000 regs and wings also trimmed , the team succumbed to usual promised finance not materializing. The first outing at Silverstone on inaugural race an embarassment for the team, as pit equipment not ready, and cars delivered on eve of race, due to late arrival of cheque.... as there were pitstops due to rain lack of working airguns led to uncommonly long halt .

Thruxton the following week similarily not very effective as spec dampers supplied with car found to have droop limiters on dampers to cater to previous ground effect body (the 85s were running with flat bottoms), lack of droop travel made car almost impossible to drive over bumps (compared to Silverstones then billiard smooth track) , causing Tassin and Leoni to have a plethora of spins.


Sounds like Williams sold them some duff kit. The FW08s had already been raced in flat bottomed form in F1 during 1983, so suitable dampers should have been available.

#31 RDV

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 03:18

Dolomite
Sounds like Williams sold them some duff kit. The FW08s had already been raced in flat bottomed form in F1 during 1983, so suitable dampers should have been available

Yes.... finding "Show car only " etched on many parts post-race helped diagnose problem quickly....

#32 dolomite

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 18:10

Oh dear! :rotfl:

#33 gdecarli

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 20:23

I found that Minardi M188, chassis #001 (it raced in 1988 F.1 championship) was converted into a F.3000 by Pavesi team and it made a test at Vallelunga at late February or early March 1989 (click to enlarge) :

Posted Image

Of course they replaced Cosworth 3500cc with the 3000cc one; tyres of course were Avon.
Test driver was Louis Perez Sala; his best lap was 1'05"6; quite a good time as pole position scored by Gregor Foitek in 1988 was 1'06"52.

This car shold have been driven in 1989 European championship by Dindo Capello, but three weeks later he had to abort this program because of lack of sponsor and I don't think this car ever raced in F.3000.

Ciao,
Guido

(Source: Autosprint 9/1989, page 7; Autosprint 12/1989, page 6)

#34 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 20:49

What a truly intriguing thread this is. Formula 3000 was a complete mystery to me - as a fan of Formula 2 I just kind of closed my mind to Formula 3000, and by the time I opened my eyes....it was gorn...

DCN

#35 Buford

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 21:26

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
There are some pics at the F3000 part of FORIX for those with subscriptions.

Wasn't F3000 really created to cater for all the obsolete DFV engines , after they've been banned from use in F1?


Actually it was a case of "insider trading." In late 1984 I had a 1981 Arrows I was scheduled to drive in a USA domestic F1 series that was supposed to start the following June. It would run recent F1 cars in their original livery. There was not the trademark profiteering then there is now and the original sponsors saw it as additional exposure at no cost to them and had no objections. They had 11 cars on board and existing and thought they would easily get another 10 or 12 before the following June. Lots of guys were looking for cars and stated intentions to run. I got to test the car once.

There was a lot of interest among tracks and it was probably going to be on the undercard at some CART races and with the Trans Am and at some of the street races they had a bunch of then and more in the planning stages, most of which eventually failed. The cars were dirt cheap, far less than running a FF in club races. I think my owner spent $11,000 to get the car and two engines turn key. The engines were going for $3000, less than a Mini Cooper engine, because they were sitting in corners of garages all over Europe and there was no use for them.

But that winter, Bernie bought up all the engines in Europe and set up F3000 and then sold the engines for a huge profit. Setting up F3000 and killing F2 was all an "insider trading" money making scam for Bernie and when he cornered the market on engines, it killed the USA series I was going to run because it ran the price up so high it blew the concept of being able to get very cool cars for dirt cheap and run them in front of an American audience and give fast young guys a chance to showcase their skills in real race cars.

#36 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 11:45

Now beeing obsolete since long from F3000, the demand for DFV's are so great that Cosworth will restart the production of this venerable unit...!

#37 Paolo

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 14:13

I remember reading (on Autosprint?) that on Lamberto Leoni's Williams many parts were found to be labeled "for exhibition only"...

#38 Gary C

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 15:04

see post #31 on this thread then!!

#39 Paolo

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 17:09

Originally posted by Gary C
see post #31 on this thread then!!


OK, there's WHERE I read it...
Apparently I re-read this thread skipping RDV's illuminating (as usual) post.
Shame on me.

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#40 David M. Kane

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 17:33

First Bernie bought most of the world's supply of DFVs, then he killed F2; THEN he said, "Hold on, I've got a great idea..." That's the way I remember it. That's why Bernie is possibly the best "previously owned" salesman the world has ever known.

#41 xbgs351

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 05:21

Hocking Formula Holden

http://www.my105.com...ied.asp?id=8008

Who knows anything about these cars?

#42 cpbell

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 17:19

Originally posted by xbgs351
Hocking Formula Holden

http://www.my105.com...ied.asp?id=8008

Who knows anything about these cars?


Looks very low, almost Brabham BT55-esque - perhaps the designer was struck by the lowness of Gordon's design?

#43 xbgs351

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:01

A previous post mentioned "For 1990 Chris Hocking started rebuilding Marches into his own cars", so this must be one of those cars, but which one and how much was March and how much was Hocking? No mention is made of any Hocking cars made in 1992 as per the one in the my105 add.

#44 ghinzani

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:49

Yes definately a 87 or (heaven forbid) an 88 March.

http://www.race-cars...118286216la.htm

Virtually the same apart from wings.

#45 xbgs351

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 09:32

Yes it does look like a '87 March except for the rear wing mounting. It musn't have any carbon fibre though, due to the rules. I wonder if it used aluminium honeycomb? I gather aluminium honeycomb can be a bit of a headache when repairs are required.

#46 ghinzani

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 10:44

Bernard de Dryvver was reported to have bought a Fittipaldi from ADA at the end of 1984 with the intention of converting it to F3000 spec. How he hoped to make a 1982 or previous ground effect F1 into a flat bottom F3000 is another story I guess?

Oh and Tyrrel also offered 011 as well as 012 chassis. Ekstroem were originally supposed to have one of those, then Williams then March...

#47 macoran

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 22:11

Actually OT, but I called a friend ****** using half the letters of the alphabet
when he tried to convince me of an F5000 BRM P83.....yes the ex H16 !!!

Lo and behold !!

http://images.google...ttp...l=nl&sa=N

#48 Bill Becketts

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 22:23

Originally posted by David M. Kane
First Bernie bought most of the world's supply of DFVs, then he killed F2; THEN he said, "Hold on, I've got a great idea..." That's the way I remember it. That's why Bernie is possibly the best "previously owned" salesman the world has ever known.


Even if that isn't true...it's worth repeating :cool: :cool: :cool:

A bit like the story about Bernie and the "Great Train Robbery"..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :smoking:

#49 ghinzani

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 22:53

Originally posted by macoran
Actually OT, but I called a friend ****** using half the letters of the alphabet
when he tried to convince me of an F5000 BRM P83.....yes the ex H16 !!!

Lo and behold !!

http://images.google...ttp...l=nl&sa=N


John Jordan was trying to sell the BRM V12 project he had in the early years of F3000 for use in the category. Given it couldnt finish F1, Aurora and Libre races I am not surprised there were any takers.

#50 Twin Window

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 23:05

Originally posted by Buford

Actually it was a case of "insider trading."

Indeed.

And, as such, no surprise there then...

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