Jump to content


Photo

Was there ever a team that ran three cars in a race?


  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

#1 Mobile_Chicane

Mobile_Chicane
  • Member

  • 917 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 09 July 2000 - 10:01

I'd imagine that teams in the past may have sometimes run 3 cars in one event?

Is there any rule currently that limits current teams from having three cars in a race? Of course the costs would balloon, but it could be possible.

Advertisement

#2 Eric McLoughlin

Eric McLoughlin
  • Member

  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 July 2000 - 10:20

It's only in relatively recent years (the 80's) that GP teams have been limited to two cars per race. In days gone by many teams fielded 3 or 4 (or more sometimes) if they felt the situation warranted it. For example, Lotus giving a third car for the young Nigel Mansell to drive at a few races on 1981 or Mercedes fielding 4 cars at some races in the 50's.

#3 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 July 2000 - 11:44

I think you'll find there were races where Ferrari fielded five cars. The Italian GP of 1960 was one, I think, and even in 1962 when they were on the slide they occasionally put out three, four being seen in some races in 1961 (which is probably the only reason Baghetti won the French GP).
Vanwall was typically a three-car team, the Alfa team was said to feature the "Three 'Fs" - Fangio, Farina and Fagioli, and they were all there to drive. Cooper, as mentioned in another thread recently, had Flockhart and McLaren alongside Brabham in some 59 races.
But it's important to realise there were one-car teams, too, the most obvious being the Williams equipe with Jones in 1979. Walker sometimes ran two, by mostly one, but that was a private team, then there were little constructors like Emeryson and so on. Dan Gurney's AAR effort was often a single-car show, from memory, and Bruce McLaren ran on his own in his first year or two.
There was only ever one Ferguson 4WD built... it ran in Walker colours... so many variations in those days gone by, before regimentation and money disturbed the ebb and flow that made it all more interesting.
Just how much money difference is seen when you consider that a three-car Vanwall team would have taken four or at most five engines (including those in the cars) to a race, while two or three more were back at the shop for overhaul... and that was the total supply! Likewise Cooper with their team, and Lotus in its fledgling years.. There was an amount of borrowing went on between teams, too, when they were running common equipment.
Don't see that today, do we?

#4 Mullaluska

Mullaluska
  • Member

  • 319 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 09 July 2000 - 12:51

Ray i think youll find (or maybe you witnessed it)that there was much more friendly atmosphere in past years (at least what i have seen and read) that currently exists i dont think any team in F1 today would be quite so helpful its all about the bottom line

#5 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 July 2000 - 14:30

In 1966, Mull, the Tasman Cup people came to town. There were BRMs and Lotus and Brabhams in adjoining tents at the different circuits. They stayed at the same or adjoining motels, saw each other day after day, week after week as they spent 9 weeks between Australia and New Zealand.
This was top level motor racing, an FIA International Championship, with World Champions racing National Champions on the same circuits as there were optimistic newcomers in 1.5-litre cars making up the field.
In adjoining tents, working on their cars on the grass, borrowing bits.
Today, even the lesser competitors in the lesser National series go to some of the same circuits. They park their transporters in a line, filling the paddock area that has been enlarged over the years. Duckboards go down on the ground, tight-fitting vinyl walls are laced into place round the steel frames that attach to the pantechs.
There are people standing guard, lest someone try to enter, more often than not. The drivers are in the motorhome away from prying eyes and ears.
The cars they drive must be a specific type, dictated by some group who owns the series. No variation allowed.
I've just posted it in the 'when did you lose interest' thread, it is the regimentation that is eating away at the soul of motor racing. Not just F1, but the disease is spreading to everything else. True, some have their saving graces, but the cancer is eating out the heart.
There must still be some friendship, some cameraderie, some benevolence somewhere. But never like it used to be.

#6 Mullaluska

Mullaluska
  • Member

  • 319 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 09 July 2000 - 14:35

Ray it must be Nice to have experienced the more open side of Formula 1 but as you say i dont think it will ever come again its all cloak & Dagger stuff now with everyone hiding behind the facade of the team

#7 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 July 2000 - 15:04

This is the third mention of him tonight... the friend with whom I shared those experiences.. travelling around the Tasman series, going to all those race meetings in the sixties and early seventies, was talking to me about Longford once.
Longford was the scene of the AGP of 1965, a 4.5-mile public road circuit with two bridges and a level crossing. Magic stuff, with haybales, a town loaded with enthusiasm, a mixture of professional racing with nicely-done amateur organisation, with some mediocre govenment backing in the background to upgrade the roads etc.
"We were so lucky to have seen that," he said to me. I couldn't agree more. But then I think of what I missed... Lobethal (1938 to 1948) in the Adelaide hills, 8.65 miles, as fast as Spa...
Perhaps there was always something better. Philosophical thinking time, maybe.
What about the dawn of the era? In different parts of the world it started differently... the right crowd and no crowding at Brooklands... Mors and Renault in France... cross-continent events like the Paris-Peking.
I'm quite sure that, if we had been watching the post-war renaissance of racing, Alfa's emergence with Maserati trailing and Ferrari looking for a place in it all, we would have looked back at the Gordon Bennett events and said to ourselves: "Weren't we privileged to see that!"
Have we got off the topic yet?
That's what the Nostalgia Forum is for!

#8 Keir

Keir
  • Member

  • 5,241 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 July 2000 - 16:16

Just off the top of my memory banks.

Ferrari 1961 - Spa, Hill, Trips, Ginther, Gendebien
Ferrari 1967 - Spa, Amon, Parkes, Scarfiotti
Tyrrell 1973 - USA, Stewart, Cervert, Amon
and probably many more.

I don't like the idea of more than two cars per team today, simply because things are not as they've been in the past.
Too much politics and the like, it just wouldn't work today.

#9 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 09 July 2000 - 19:47

During the 1934 to 1939 period, Auto Union and Daimler-Benz often entered three or four car team.

The same for Officine Alfieri Maserati, Scuderia Ferrari, Alfa Romeo SA/Alfa Corse, and others during the same period and later. The G.A. Vandervell team (Vanwall) usually entered three cars in 1957 and 1958: Stirling Moss, Tony Brooks, and Stuart Lewis-Evans. In 1959, Cooper Cars Company entered Jack Brabham, Masten Gregory, and Bruce McLaren for most of its events (until Gregory was injured at Goodwood). The BRM period under Big Lou Stanley often saw three cars and up to five cars entered: at Monaco for 1972 the BRM team put Jean-Pierre Beltoise (P160), Peter Gethin (P160), Howden Ganley (P180), Helmut Marko (P153), and Reine Wissell (P160) in the pits ready (using the word loosely) to qualify.

Oh, Williams was not a singleton team in 1979: remember it was Clay Regazzoni who gave Frank Williams his first GP victory not Jones.

There is not something in the silly rules that limit the entrants to only two cars. With fewer willing to belly up to the bar -- 22 cars for the supposed Biggie in racing is a tad lacking -- why not add a third car? Then again, who cares? They would find a way to muck it up anyway...

#10 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,511 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 July 2000 - 21:26

As I recall, 3 cars was the minimum for any decent team until 1960. That year Cooper decided to enter only 2 cars, losing Masten Gregory his works drive in the process. THe other teams followed within a few years. The 2 car "team" dates from then.

#11 Megatron

Megatron
  • Member

  • 3,688 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 09 July 2000 - 22:54

The last time that a team ran three cars was 1985 in Germany when Renault fielded a third car for Francois Hesnault alongside Tambay and Warwick. It was actually just a test for the then new in car camera. I think they ran the number 14 for Hesnault, with the usual 15 and 16 for thier normal drivers.

They also did it in 84 in Portugal with Phillip Strief in a NO 33 Renault.

I seem to remember in the days of Marlboro BRM in 72 or 73 the team fielding 6 or 7 cars, one of many over ambitous plans that BRM tried to get back into the frame.



#12 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 July 2000 - 23:49

Sorry, it was 78 that Jones was alone in the Williams.
There was that other scenario, particularly with Maserati, who had so many private owners on the grid, where they would give a semi-works status to a favoured driver or team. This meant that even car swapping between factory and non-factory teams might happen in the race... they were that close to being works cars.
'Works cars,' what a wonderful term!
Lost forever in F1 today, where only 'works cars' run... are allowed to run... no private entries.
March was another one to bolt extra cars together, I'm sure, but as with BRM it's just inconvenient for me to look it up and see... but remember that article Jenks did on the imaginary German GP at the Nurburgring when the official one went off to Hockenheim... he 'reported' that March were digging deep into their spares to make up extra cars and so get extra starting money.
Regarding Vanwall, I have an idea that they also started four cars once or twice, Pescara seems to be in my mind, but it may not have been, and also at Monza.
And finally, Joe, sorry, I put Flockhart into the Cooper instead of Gregory... how could I do that?

#13 Dave Ware

Dave Ware
  • Member

  • 998 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 10 July 2000 - 14:56

McLaren ran a third car for Gurney in the last few races of 1968 after his Eagle operation came to an end.

BRM was mentioned before, rightly so. In the early seventies they seemed to run as many cars as they could get running, often with a musical-chairs sort of arrangement with the drivers.

The Canadian and U.S. Grands Prix in the early seventies (and probably the late sixties) were popular venues for additional cars, often with local drivers. I believe I remember correctly that first place purse for the U.S. GP was $50,000...(I read elsewhere at that time that one of Stewart's Tyrrells cost $65,000 to build)...so apparently the lure of big money was an influence.

One car teams? Hesketh and Wolf, to name a couple. Hunt had the team to himself for at least the first few years. Brett Lunger had a Hesketh for a year, and I think it was a second works entry, although I'm sure it was paid for by Lunger. Wolf ran a second car on occasion but I don't remember them running one consistently.

I thought it was grand, those teams that ran extra cars for local or journeyman drivers. I don't think these extra entries often amounted to much at the end of the race, but it added a lot of variety and interest, and gave a few drivers a chance at F1 that they might not otherwise have had.

Dave

#14 SteveB2

SteveB2
  • Member

  • 228 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 10 July 2000 - 15:40

Just looking at a program from the 1990 British that, for some reason, I keep here at work. It has three single car teams list (out of the 35 cars listed !!!) They were Osella, Suburu Coloni, and Life for Olivier Groulliard, Bertrand Gachot and Bruno Giacomelli.

I can't remember when Bernia legistated that there would be only two car teams. In both cases, the multi- and single-car teams, that is, they added a bit of color to a weekend. WOndering whether the Osella would get in the race. Wondering who this new person a well financed teams has found and wants to try out in a third car.

OT- does anyone else remember that Subaru? Wasn't it a W12 or am I mixing it up with something else?

#15 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 10 July 2000 - 19:04

From memory, such a thing never actually ran.
That would have been an interesting time, with the formula change and some people gearing up for the new engines, others sticking to the old, the fuel consumption thing and all. Lots of unregimented variety there.

#16 SteveB2

SteveB2
  • Member

  • 228 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 10 July 2000 - 20:23

Ray,
You're right. I think I remember that it never got off the ground. (or onto the ground?) I kept waiting for it. Thought it sounded like an interesting way to get 12 cylinders into a small footprint, which would seem to give a designer an advantage somehow. (maybe there would be a resulting frontal area penalty?)

Coloni did run a 12 cylinder that was badged as a Subaru. I wonder what it was? A quick web search only told me that it ran 8 races in 1990.

S.

#17 Megatron

Megatron
  • Member

  • 3,688 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 10 July 2000 - 22:12

It seems like the Sabaru was a B12, not sure though.

I do know it never made a race, then Subaru tried to buy Coloni and after all the bad press (kind of a modern day Prost-Peugoet) pulled out.

As far as one car teams, the one that came to mind was Life, NO 39, over 25 seconds off pole time! Oh yea!!

Honda of course also ran one car for Ginther, then Surtees in the 1960's.

Zakspeed also started out with just one car in 1985.

Plenty more, just can't think of any right now.

#18 Megatron

Megatron
  • Member

  • 3,688 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 10 July 2000 - 22:15

It was a B12, with Gacheot driving.

Memory coming back to me! (not the best looking car, but better than the yellow the Coloni team usually ran).

#19 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 10 July 2000 - 22:46

Was Ensign a one-car team too? And Toleman? Certainly, at times the Tyrrell team had only Stewart, and mighty Matra ran one only as well.

Advertisement

#20 Megatron

Megatron
  • Member

  • 3,688 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 11 July 2000 - 01:38

Ensign did both one and two cars, of course that team was headed by Mo Nunn.

Toleman did the same, for instance they started out in 85 with only Fabi in the car, but then added a second car around season for that really slow guy from Italy (can't think of his name, just that he was really slow).

There were times when Tyrrell would add an occasional third works car, like in 71 with Peter Revson at the Glen, and who knows how many year old Tyrrells were sold to independent teams (I know one had sponsorship from Lucky Strike).

Minardi started out as strictly a one car team, with Motori Mondeni and Ford Cosworths in the back.

The short lived Spirt team always was a one car effort, even when they had Honda power in 1983.


It seems like when Alfa Romeo came back with thier own car in late 1979 they entered with only one car, before getting two when they got Marlboro money.

Renault started out as a one car outfit, until 1979.

Osella was always going back and forth from one car to two, either way they were back markers.





#21 Marcel Schot

Marcel Schot
  • Member

  • 5,459 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 11 July 2000 - 09:44

Originally posted by Don Capps
There is not something in the silly rules that limit the entrants to only two cars.


There is, Don. FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations, sections Competitors Applications, point 47 on http://www.fia.com :
No more than 24 cars will be admitted to the Championship, two being entered by each competitor.

I agree with you though that very few teams would be willing to enter a third car even if the opportunity was there. Maybe only Ferrari and McLaren, but definatelly no others. Come to think, McLaren would probably love it, since we can clearly state that Olivier Panis is a bit better than Luca Badoer.


#22 Mobile_Chicane

Mobile_Chicane
  • Member

  • 917 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 11 July 2000 - 12:07

Another question on a totally different topic. Reading f1/ history book there is a mention that the 1923 Fiat 805.405 was developed in a wind tunnel.

when were wind tunnels first used to develop racing cars? Was Fiat the first one to do it?



#23 Dave Ware

Dave Ware
  • Member

  • 998 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 11 July 2000 - 12:46

Tyrrell ran a third car for Depailler at the USGP in '72. And of course McLaren ran a third car for Scheckter for several races in '73 (much to Emerson's regret at France...and Cevert's regret at Mosport...and a lot of people's regret at Silverstone). Also one for Ickx at the Nurburgring that same year.

Surtees had American Sam Posey drive the USGP in '71 and '72. Were those entries third cars, or was the second car simply available at the time?



#24 Marco94

Marco94
  • Member

  • 393 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 11 July 2000 - 12:49

The Subaru engine was designed by Carlo Chiti. It should therefor come as a no suprise that it is in fact a 180 degree V-12. Like the Alfa-Romeo engines that were used in the Brabham BT-45 and BT-46(B).

There have been two attempts to build a W-12 engine. One was the Life used (well...) in the Eurolife and the other was build by MGN and tested briefly in an AGS.

Marco.

#25 Megatron

Megatron
  • Member

  • 3,688 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 11 July 2000 - 13:38

"The Subaru engine was designed by Carlo Chiti. It should therefor come as a no suprise that it is in fact a 180 degree V-12. Like the Alfa-Romeo engines that were used in the Brabham BT-45 and BT-46(B)."

Hate to disagree with you but I vividly remember some PR shots of the Subaru engine talking about the "B12". Also if you go to FORIX, they list it as a B12.

The W12 arrangment sounded good on paper. It could be as compact as a V10 but with the power of a 12 cylinder. But it never took of the ground, as Life were slightly better when they tried the Judd late in 1990 (don't get excited, they only picked up a second or two most of the time).


As far as wind tunnel testing, well I have no clue. Personally, the first time I saw the wind tunnel was in the mid 70's. The flop that was the 1979 McLaren was designed totally using the wind tunnel, from Atlanta, GA, USA.


#26 SteveB2

SteveB2
  • Member

  • 228 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 11 July 2000 - 15:08

I feel silly for asking but, what is a "B12"? I can't imagine a cylinder arrangement to which I would attach a designator "B" .

I wasn't aware that the Life was a W config. Interesting.

As for wind tunnel tesing., I wonder what Fiat would have been after in the 20's? Drag reduction I would assume. Did the Germans do any wind tunnel testing on the Streamliner Silver Arrows in the 30's?

I have a picture in a textbook of a set of wings that the Wright Brothers used in their wind tunnel before they made the first flight. There must have been thirty or forty different wings with different length/cord ratios and a few elliptical planforms like ths Spitfire. I think istory gives us the impression that the Wright were just a couple of bike meachanics that just kind of slapped together an airplane. They must have been very thorough and innovative reasearchers to have produced first what a number of other researchers were also attempting.

Another digression: I'm thinking about trying out a signature quote. How about "Build a man a fire, you keep him warm for a day...set a man on fire, you keep him warm for the rest of his life." Too morbid?


#27 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,511 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 11 July 2000 - 18:10

I think it quite probable that Fiat did do wind tunnel testing in the 20's, although the equipment would have been crude by modern standards. Certainly the Fiats were of a completely different shape from their contempories with slab sides and a pointed tail in plan. THey set a fashion in body design, and many other things which asted until 1934.

#28 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 11 July 2000 - 23:21

Megatron, the 'B12' designation means 'Boxer 12-cyl' - in other words a horizontally opposed cylinder arrangement, which Jenks (possibly others) stretched in his imagination to record as a 180 degree 'V'.
Back on the single-car efforts, how about John Love, who nearly won the SA GP one year in a 49? He was not alone, nor was it the only year, for a number of SA drivers went F1 during the early part of the 1.5-lite F1 (often with Alfa Romeo production engines modified), a couple stayed with the 3-litre formula.
A few of the DFV-cars in Australia came via that part of the world... Alex Macarthur's Brabham had either the engine or the chassis from there, John McCormack's M23 was from there.
Yes, Meg, too morbid!

#29 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 01:18

It was typo on my part: it should have been now instead of "not" in the posting. :blush:

John Love almost won the 67 SAGP in a Cooper 79 (FL/1/65) fitted with a Climax FPF. Were it not for a misfire which used up more fuel than calculated, he would have won it handily.

As to the FIAT 805, it could have easily logged wind tunnel time since FIAT was also in the aircraft business at the time building both engines and airframes.

#30 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 01:26

Sorry, Don, yes, I think he got a 49 later... what a turn-up that would have been though, an FPF winning again after seven years!

#31 Marco94

Marco94
  • Member

  • 393 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 06:38

Ray,

Jenks may in fact have been right about the 180 degree V-12! In a boxer the opposing pistons move in opposite directions. If one moves outward, so does the opposing one. They each have their own cranck. In a 180 degree V-12, the opposing pistons have a shared cranck. If one moves outward, the other moves inward.

The Subaru was designed by Motori Moderni and Carlo Chiti. It was indeed a 180 degree V-12, as were the Alfa-Romeo engines in the Brabham BT-45 and BT-46(B). Also designed by Chiti. As far as I know only Porsche has build boxer engines. The Ferrari engines in the 312 series also were 180 degree V-12.

Marco.

#32 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 08:13

That's too find a distinction to me... you can't see that detail from outside the engine!
I really don't see a 'V' as being a straight line, which is what would represent a Flat 12. Therefore, let's go on calling them 'Flat 12s' or 'Flat 6s' and forget both the other descriptions.

#33 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 08:39

In keeping with a long Italian tradition (with Chiti and Forghieri its major representatives), the original Alfa engine in the 177 test bed used on their return to GP racing in 1979 was also a flat-12, in fact the same used by Brabham between 1976 and 1978. Forix (and many others sources) call it a boxer (B12) and do so with the Ferrari 312 as well, while in fact - as Marco rightly mentions - they were V12s flattened to 180 degrees to create a low center of gravity, and not of the type Porsche became famous for.

The advantage of the flat engine was lost with the advent of ground effects and later the rear-end venturis and the now familiar Coke-bottle shape, for which the boxers and the flat lay-out were simply too wide to create a free flow of air underneath (in the case of ground effects) or alongside (in the case of rear-end aerodynamics) the car. So Alfa quickly reverted to a V12 at the end of 1979. The wide flat-12 hampering ground effects was also a main reason for Ferrari showing such abysmal form during 1980.

I agree with Ray that F12 would make a better description of all these flat engines.

If you want to have a graphic image of the ill-fated Subaru/Motori Moderni engine (which was the last in the Ferrari/Alfa line of engine design) and many other disastrous powerplants, see Rainer Nyberg's excellent article on engine failures (that is, engines that failed to live up to expectation). You will find it here: http://www.racer.dem...8w/engfail.html Incidentally, to confuse things further, Rainer also calls the Subaru/MM a boxer...

Cheers,
Mattijs
[p][Edited by Racer.Demon on 07-12-2000]

#34 Huw Jenjin

Huw Jenjin
  • Member

  • 427 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 11:21

Marco, the site on Demon for the Subaru engine wont fire up for me , is it possible to put the graphic up on this site. I am very interested to see the difference between a flat 12 and a 180 degree V12,or a flat anything and a 180 degree vee anything.(Boxer or other wise)
I know that horizontally opposed engines are cofused with flat engines, and that enfines like the Commer and Napier had pistons which faced each other.
refering to engines as F or B is simply confusing the matter. A V is a physical symbol of the configuration, whereas F or B is simply a name coined by a marketing guru.
A Flat engine is Flat, an in line engine is in line, and a W engine is in the shape of a W, or could more accurately be described as an arrow, a Vee with a line in the middle.


#35 Megatron

Megatron
  • Member

  • 3,688 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 11:44

The B12 Subaru was a flat engine, yes like the Alfa Romeos of the 70's, and its main advantage was that it provided a very low center of gravity, but at the same time it also was an extremely heavy engine. The Subaru weighed in at 159kg. With five valves per cylinder, it was reputed to produce 417kW (just under 600bhp), which was not great.


#36 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 12:03

It's true that the description isn't as simple as a Vee, nor is the W terribly descriptive. But note that I never said 'F', I said 'Flat' and that is ample for most people, whether the pistons are on the same crank thows or not.
In the meantime, I'd be happy with 600hp any day!

#37 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 12:55

Huw: the link is now in working order. As the address stood at the end of a sentence, the automatic URL parser of this BB included the full stop immediately after the html part. Silly mistake...

M.


#38 BT52

BT52
  • Member

  • 89 posts
  • Joined: May 00

Posted 12 July 2000 - 13:40

The last time 3 cars from one team were entered for a GP was in 1983 I believe.
This was at Brands Hatch for the European GP where Williams had car 1 for Rosberg, 2 for Laffite and 42 for Palmer.

Ironically this was the only race of the year where Laffite failed to qualify, so in the race there were just 2 Williams.

Don't know when the rules changed to not allow 3 cars.

#39 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,450 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 July 2000 - 20:49

Did they expect Palmer to have a few problems in practice?
Talk about a transporter full....

Advertisement

#40 HistoricMustang

HistoricMustang
  • Member

  • 4,489 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 13 October 2009 - 21:05

I'd imagine that teams in the past may have sometimes run 3 cars in one event?

Is there any rule currently that limits current teams from having three cars in a race? Of course the costs would balloon, but it could be possible.


Well, think not that we want to visit NASCAR on this one. :down:

Henry :wave:


#41 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,709 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 13 October 2009 - 21:27

First time round this was before I joined the forum. What was the highest number of cars a team entered in a GP?

The 1953 Italian GP saw 6 genuine works Ferraris: 500s for Ascari, Farina, Villoresi & Hawthorn and prototype 553 Squalos for Maglioli and Carini

#42 RStock

RStock
  • Member

  • 2,276 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 13 October 2009 - 22:42

First time round this was before I joined the forum. What was the highest number of cars a team entered in a GP?

The 1953 Italian GP saw 6 genuine works Ferraris: 500s for Ascari, Farina, Villoresi & Hawthorn and prototype 553 Squalos for Maglioli and Carini


Ferrari had 7 entered for the 1954 race , but one entrant , Piero Taruffi , never showed . Luis Rosier had a private 500 entered for the same race , but switched to and started in a Maserati .

Not sure if that's the highest though .

#43 Cam2InfoNeeded

Cam2InfoNeeded
  • Member

  • 206 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 14 October 2009 - 03:38

Unless I over-looked someone elses response, Andy Granatelli had 3 cars in at least the 1968 Indy 500. They were Colin Chapman's Lotus 56's with Joe Leonard, Graham Hill, and Art Pollard. Parnelli was scheduled to drive the reworked 1967 turbine, too, but it didn't happen.

#44 stevewf1

stevewf1
  • Member

  • 3,259 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 14 October 2009 - 05:02

Going the other way, I think there a few times in the mid-80s where points were withheld from a team and driver(s) because the team had only entered one car for the World Championship...


#45 AlanR

AlanR
  • Member

  • 48 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 16 October 2009 - 20:36

Going the other way, I think there a few times in the mid-80s where points were withheld from a team and driver(s) because the team had only entered one car for the World Championship...


ATS rings a bell there. Berger finished in the points when he raced a few times towards the end of the 1984 season I think.

#46 jjordan

jjordan
  • Member

  • 49 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 19 October 2009 - 14:12

As Dave Ware pointed out, when I first started following F1 in the late 60"s early seventies, it was very common for some of the teams to add a 3rd car for the "North America swing", US and Canadien GP's. Dave suggests that it was due to the increased purse (and start money), which may be right, but the ones I remember were locals who rented a ride from the established teams. Not sure what the going rate was (would be interesting to find out), but I remember Bill Brack commenting on renting a ride for the Canadian GP from a British team (Lotus?). They had trouble with CV joints and tore up several on the 2 team cars, came by on race morning and took 2 goods one off his rented car and installed some of an old design on his car. Seems to me he went out about mid-race with CV joint troubles. Didn't Penske/Donahue rent a McLaren for the USGP or did they buy that? Also Dave Carlton comes to mind in South African GP.

#47 RA Historian

RA Historian
  • Member

  • 3,833 posts
  • Joined: October 06

Posted 19 October 2009 - 14:28

Just some of the 'extra' drivers for the North American GPs were the aforementioned Bill Brack in a Lotus at Ste Jovite and BRMs at Mosport in 69 and 72; Eppie Wietzes in a Lotus at Mosport in 67 and a Brabham in 74; George Eaton in a BRM in 71 (bought the whole season in 70, but that is another story); Peter Revson in a Tyrrell at the Glen in 71; Sam Posey in a Surtees at the Glen in 71 and 72; and Penske did a deal for a works McLaren M19 to be sponsored by Sunoco for Donohue at Mosport and Hobbs at the Glen in 71. Pedro Rodriguez usually was in a spare Lotus or Ferrari for the Mexican GPs in the 60s. There are more, I am sure.

The title of this thread surprised me a bit, as it was very common for teams to run three or more cars prior to the implementation of a rule limiting entries to two cars. Said rule came in, when, sometime in the 1980s? Before that, for some teams three was the norm. Of course, going back into the 1950s it was not unusual at all to see teams enter four, five, or even more cars in a race.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 19 October 2009 - 14:30.


#48 john ruston

john ruston
  • Member

  • 1,019 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 20 October 2009 - 00:10

No one has mentioned Big Lou and the fleet of BRM's entered in the 70's

#49 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,513 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:15

No one has mentioned Big Lou and the fleet of BRM's entered in the 70's

posts #9, 11 and 13.

Edited by scheivlak, 20 October 2009 - 09:16.


#50 wenoopy

wenoopy
  • Member

  • 648 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:27

I don't see any mention so far of the Scuderia Ferrari entries in the Argentine Grands Prix of 1956 and 1957. In 1956 they entered 5 cars of varying degrees of Ferrari and Lancia cross-pollination : Fangio won in Musso's Lancia-Ferrari after retiring his own, but only Gendebien's Ferrari 555 finished (5th) of the others.

In 1957, they entered 6 cars for Castellotti, Collins, Musso, Hawthorn, Gonzalez and Perdisa, making up almost half of the field of 14. Quantity was no substitute for quality, and only Gonzalez(assisted/relieved by de Portago, in the fashion of the time) and Perdisa(likewise aided by Collins and von Trips) made the finish, in 5th and 6th places.