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Sterling Moss, Mike Hawthorne Jim Clarke and Motorsport


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#1 D-Type

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 15:07

Where do these misspellings come from?

It's Sir Stirling Moss not Sterling! It may be Pounds Sterling and sterling silver but the Scottish city and county he was named after are both Stirling.

It's Mike Hawthorn not Mike Hawthorne. But which is the spelling for the bend at Brands Hatch? I suspect that may have an 'e'

James Clark junior of Edgington Mains and Lotus was Jim Clark not Jim Clarke

And the green 'un of Boddy and Jenkinson fame is Motor Sport (2 words) not Motorsport. The now defunct US magazine was Motorsport or Motorsports as was (is) the Aussie one. But Autosport of Roebuck infame is one word.


(end of rant)

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#2 mikedeering

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 15:11

This sort of thing continues today in Racing Comments. Just ask Ralph Schumacher.

#3 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 15:30

Originally posted by D-Type
James Clark junior of Edgington Mains and Lotus was Jim Clark not Jim Clarke

I believe that Jim Clark lived at Edington Mains.

#4 ensign14

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 15:48

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
I believe that Jim Clark lived at Edington Mains.

Pfft...where do these things start? :p

Ralph Schumacher should get on well with Ralf Firman.

There are still a few others - McClaren, Brian Maguire...anyone ever seen Stirling Marlin?...and I believe it is Bert Hawthorne.

Where do they come from? Sloppy editing, I guess. No one source, as anyone could mistakenly spell a name based on someone they know or whatever.

We won't mention the book that contains dozens of Reggazonis. :lol:

#5 llmaurice

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:16

I find this forum is fine as a motor racing nostalgia board. If I wanted to better my English I'd
probably look elsewhere . Lets not lose sight of the fact that many enthusiasts are not British .
Personally ,I'm glad its not a Japanese site as there would probably be a few incorrectly spelt names there as well--by Brits !

#6 Don Capps

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:32

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.

Wm. Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

#7 VAR1016

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:33

Originally posted by llmaurice
I find this forum is fine as a motor racing nostalgia board. If I wanted to better my English I'd
probably look elsewhere . Lets not lose sight of the fact that many enthusiasts are not British .
Personally ,I'm glad its not a Japanese site as there would probably be a few incorrectly spelt names there as well--by Brits !


These are not criticisms of English as used by those posting here, but of carelessness and /or laziness on the part of the posters.

Much of the grammar in RC is execrable and the punctuation appalling. Especially irritating is the discourtesy shown by those who refuse to use the "shift" key in their postings.


PdeRL

#8 T54

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:45

As a "furriner" and in spite that I myself commit grammarial sins on a regular basis, I agree that names at least SHOULD be spelled correctly by supposedly knowledgeable writers.

Signed:

A Merling Stoss fan.

#9 BRG

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:47

Please lighten up, people! You will give history as bad name at this rate.

Remember that William Shakespeare himself spelt his own name a dozen or more different ways. If such carelessness, laziness and sloppiness was good enough for the Bard, perhaps some of you might consider being a little less censorious.

llmaurice is right - many here are posting in what is a foreign language for them and it behoves the native English speakers to be a little more tolerant and understanding. Personally, I welcome the global reach of this BB and greatly value the views of those from outside the Anglo-Saxon hegemony. And if it means swallowing some less than perfect English, well, it's well worth suffering a little bit of linguistic or grammatical mayhem. As long as the message is clear, who cares about the medium?

And anyway, some of us are crap typists which expalins mos tof my errors!

#10 D-Type

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 16:55

Originally posted by llmaurice
I find this forum is fine as a motor racing nostalgia board. If I wanted to better my English I'd
probably look elsewhere . Lets not lose sight of the fact that many enthusiasts are not British .
Personally ,I'm glad its not a Japanese site as there would probably be a few incorrectly spelt names there as well--by Brits !


I made no comment about anybody's use of English, I only said that I deplore incorrect spelling which means you can't find things using 'Search BB' or any other search engine!

And I plead guilty as charged regarding Edington Mains :blush: (Posting at work without references - naughty!)

And I agree entirely with VAR016 regarding those who won't use the 'SHIFT' key making their posts difficult to read.

Don, you're sticking your neck out quoting the well known son of Stratford on a spelling thread - after all the various contemporary documents, including those allegedly signed by him, use several variants including Shakespeare, Shakespear, Shakespere, Shaksper, etc

Any advance on McClaren, Brian Maguire, Reggazoni, Ralph? What should they be?

#11 Twin Window

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 17:04

The one that never fails to make my blood boil is... Tyrell

:mad:

Twinny

#12 oldtimer

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 17:09

Originally posted by D-Type
Where do these misspellings come from?


And the green 'un of Boddy and Jenkinson fame is Motor Sport (2 words) not Motorsport. The now defunct US magazine was Motorsport or Motorsports as was (is) the Aussie one. But Autosport of Roebuck infame is one word.


(end of rant)


Even before it was the green 'un, the cover on MotorSport presented itself without the space between Motor and Sport.

#13 Twin Window

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 17:31

Originally posted by oldtimer


Even before it was the green 'un, the cover on MotorSport presented itself without the space between Motor and Sport.

Having worked on this magazine, I can assure you that it's Motor Sport...

Twinny

#14 Geoff E

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 17:43

Originally posted by BRG
Remember that William Shakespeare himself spelt his own name a dozen or more different ways.


There are apparently six known signatures by the Bard, no two of which are alike; and none of them "Shakespeare".

#15 Keir

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 17:54

I still write

MotorSport

just like it appears on the cover!! :

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 18:36

Quoting Shakespeare (except in the way Don did) is irrelevant. Spellings of proper names weren't standardised 400 years ago - they are now. There are no optional spellings for Stirling Moss, Mike Hawthorn, Bert Hawthorne etc.
And let me hasten to add that I'm sure no-one is aiming to criticise TNF posters or non-English speakers, but rather the great lazy unwashed of newspaper and magazine writers (and, yes, perhaps posters on other forums ;) )

#17 panzani

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 19:06

I am neither British nor English-speaking educated (even though some say I drink beer as an Irish, I take it as a compliment...) but I think we should at least spell proper names ... well, properly. Including those from outside the Anglo-Saxon community.
(caveat: sometimes keybords are not useful with foreign words)

On the other hand, as a non-English speaker I know I make lots of mistakes, both spell and grammar-wise, and I can only improve my skills and vocabulary whenever I get corrected.

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 19:41

Originally posted by Keir
I still write

MotorSport

just like it appears on the cover!! :


But no, it's MOTORSPORT really!

#19 VAR1016

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 21:19

Originally posted by David McKinney
... And let me hasten to add that I'm sure no-one is aiming to criticise TNF posters or non-English speakers, but rather the great lazy unwashed of newspaper and magazine writers (and, yes, perhaps posters on other forums ;) )


Amen: in the words of the great Nigel Molesworth: "Perish the thort."!

Also I should make it clear that I had no intention of criticising the grammar of foreigners - only those who should know better.

It is rare to find miscreants on TNF!

PdeRL

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#20 SEdward

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 21:21

Tyrell? What about Benneton? Or Benetton? Or Bennetton? Or any other combination you cam cun upth wi.

Edward.

#21 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 21:28

I was its assistant editor at one point in 1968 and it was 'Motor Sport' the last time I looked - two words, and rendered as such on the header to every page - as in TWO WORDS.

As for old Wm Shagspur and the notion of optional spellin' fer dimwitts being somehow aceptabble this always dus - and allways haz - struk me as a zero tolerants zoen. We all comit speling erors - some by simple finger trouble, some through momentry aberashun and some, of course, threw pigg igerance...but wrong is RONG, right is RITE, and the latter should always be an ideal for which to strive.

Like Twinny the spelling 'Tyrell' drives me round the twist, but a worse one which goes through me like a knife every time I see it - as on BBC TV trailers and Ceefax (surely the first refuge of the terminally, uncaringly, disregardingly uneducated supposed 'journalist') - is 'Donnington Park'....which just sets my shirt tails afire every time it's inflicted upon my field of vision... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ...but I do recall Ceefax and a David Attenborough nature programme trail on BBC TV referring to the cold southern Continent as the 'Antartic' and the northern pole's icefields as the 'Artic'...at which point could we have a detonation smiley please???

DCN

#22 VAR1016

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 21:37

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I ...but I do recall Ceefax and a David Attenborough nature programme trail on BBC TV referring to the cold southern Continent as the 'Antartic' and the northern pole's icefields as the 'Artic'...at which point could we have a detonation smiley please???

DCN


It's even worse when they speak and inflict on us such solecisms as "Home seckertry", "guvvermunt" "ter" (for to) and "gunnah" for "going to".

I could cheerfully wrap plastic explosives around my wireless - but I must have one of those plunger things - now that would make a good smiley.

PdeRL

#23 Twin Window

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 21:54

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I was its assistant editor at one point in 1968 and it was 'Motor Sport' the last time I looked - two words, and rendered as such on the header to every page - as in TWO WORDS.

Well, Doug, despite there being a thirty year span between your time there and mine, it would appear that the magazine's moniker hasn't changed at all...  ;)

Like Twinny the spelling 'Tyrell' drives me round the twist, but a worse one which goes through me like a knife every time I see it - as on BBC TV trailers and Ceefax (surely the first refuge of the terminally, uncaringly, disregardingly uneducated supposed 'journalist') - is 'Donnington Park'....which just sets my shirt tails afire every time it's inflicted upon my field of vision...

YEESSSSSSS!!!! That's the other one I really, really hate. :mad:

Twinny

#24 T54

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 22:41

Should we also forgive the almost universal misspelling of French names and expressions by the supposed erudite, like Citrion, Rennault, Puegoet (twice as easy, eh!) Viosin, Buggati, or the use of "petite" instead of "petit" to characterize a small driver, etc. ?
The worse is the famous "coupe de grace". It's COUP DE GRACE, unless you are my gardener, at which point it is "Coop de grass", OK? A coupe is something you drink TEA from.

Tea Cinquante Quatre :wave:

#25 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 22:44

Steve Hirst, in his groundbreaking early 70s results book "Grand Prix Chronology", rendered Henri Pescarolo as Henri Pescarola throughout. :rolleyes:

"Tyrell" gets to me too .... and Donnington .... and Ferarri ( :wave: Roger!) .... and Gus Hutchinson ( :wave: Don!)








Sorry gents, couldn't resist!

#26 Ron Scoma

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 23:21

Originally posted by oldtimer
Even before it was the green 'un, the cover on MotorSport presented itself without the space between Motor and Sport.


They changed their name from THE BROOKLANDS GAZETTE ?????

Ron Scoma
#41

#27 Muzza

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 23:49

Originally posted by Doug Nye
(...)Like Twinny the spelling 'Tyrell' drives me round the twist, but a worse one which goes through me like a knife every time I see it - as on BBC TV trailers and Ceefax (surely the first refuge of the terminally, uncaringly, disregardingly uneducated supposed 'journalist') - is 'Donnington Park'....which just sets my shirt tails afire every time it's inflicted upon my field of vision... :mad: (...)

DCN


One of the worst motorsport-related spelling errors I have ever seen has been printed on the doors of an official rescue car that reads Donnington Park!

I find quite irritating the following, which I saw printed time and again in "respectable" newspapers and magazines (correct spelling in italics - just in case someone doesn't know it...):


- Fitippaldi instead of Fittipaldi;

- Guippone instead of Giuppone, Guiseppe Farina instead of Giuseppe Farina and many other "Guis";

- Andestorp, Andrestop and Andestop (!) instead of Anderstorp;

- LeMans instead of Le Mans :mad: and all similar agglutinations of preposition and noun (to French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish speakers this looks really ugly - unless, of course, it is due, what happens in rare cases only);

- Lamborginni, Lamborguini, Lamborggini and many other variations on the Lamborghini theme;

- similarly, Muggelo instead of Mugello;

- Shumacher instead of Schumacher - the American media is still "debating" whether he is Michael Shumacher or Shumacker, but they seem to agree that his younger brother is definitely Ralph...

(off topic: what about professional journalists writing "per say" instead of per se... :mad: )

- Phillipe Streiff instead of Philippe Streiff;

- San Paolo and Sao Pablo instead of Sao Paulo (that's correct English spelling);

- Roberto "Pupo" Moreno instead of Roberto Pupo Moreno;

- Naninni instead of Nannini...

... and many other "jewels".

Regards,


Muzza

#28 T54

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 00:51

- LeMans instead of Le Mans and all similar agglutinations of preposition and noun (to French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish speakers this looks really ugly - unless, of course, it is due, what happens in rare cases only);



To be correct, it's "le Mans", not "Le Mans", unless the phrase begins with the city's name. :)

#29 Kvadrat

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 01:35

There's a British Pathe film on race won by Moss. Film's title was 'Stirling wins more Sterling'. So I think sometimes they changed his real name to similar word to show how much money he earns.

#30 David Hyland

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 03:06

Originally posted by BRG
Remember that William Shakespeare himself spelt his own name a dozen or more different ways.

I always thought that was so he could make fraudulent claims on Social Security...

#31 Muzza

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 04:49

Originally posted by T54


To be correct, it's "le Mans", not "Le Mans", unless the phrase begins with the city's name. :)


Absolutely correct. And let's not even talk about the fact that le is an article, hence 24 Heures du Mans - so the it more precise to refer to the race in English as 24 Hours of Mans than "24 Hours of Le Mans" (but even myself use the latter form). A similar case happens in Italian with Il Mugello.

These are though tougher issues, as they involve some knowledge of the grammar of the original language - and we can give the pundits a break. What I cannot excuse are gross spelling mistakes like the ones mentioned along this thread (particularly if published/broadcasted by the members of the "specialized media"), or errors of syntax, ortography, semantics or morphology in one's own language. Obviously such catastrophies are not "privilege" of the English-speaking media - reading the Brazilian racing "journalists" is one of the surest ways of acquiring a stomach ulcer I know. Argh!

Cheers,


Muzza

#32 T54

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 05:20

These are though tougher issues, as they involve some knowledge of the grammar of the original language



Muzza, of course, you are right. It is certainly not mandatory for anyone to speak another language than his own native tongue unless of course running for Prez in the USA as it gets you 10 extra points... :lol:
Where I object is when some elitist "intellectual" writers are making quotations in a foreign tongue (generally to make a pun or an attack of some kind) and have no real clue of what they are actually expressing, the result being a poorly worded mess.
I believe that it is the summum of a writer's arrogance and consider this just as bad or worse than anyone misspelling Ken's name. As far as reading this stuff, it is as annoying to me as listening to badly conducted Beethoven. For the love of words, I would at least ASK someone who actually knows before printing such slop. Of course it is not going to ruin my day but I lose a lot of respect for a writer when such maladroit attempts are made.
Regards,

T54 :(

#33 conjohn

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 05:29

...and it is Knutstorp (even Ring Knutstorp) rather than Knutsdorp...

but my favorite still is this, a real double whammy...


Posted Image


...hopefully before your time there, Twinny...

#34 petefenelon

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 08:21

Originally posted by conjohn
...and it is Knutstorp (even Ring Knutstorp) rather than Knutsdorp...

but my favorite still is this, a real double whammy...


Posted Image


...hopefully before your time there, Twinny...


Four weeks since I jacked in the habit..... and I haven't even weakened and flicked through a copy in a shop!;)

#35 Twin Window

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 08:45

Originally posted by conjohn
...hopefully before your time there, Twinny...

Indeed it was, but I remember it well nevertheless! If you have access to later issues of The Comic, take a look at the front cover of the British GP preview issue from 1981. You'll find that some of the pinstripes are missing, and one of the headlines refers to the new 'Tyrell'...

Other classics include an NSR interview with the strapline 'Alian Prost'! That went down well... Not.

Twinny

#36 BRG

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:04

If this is to be a zero tolerance zone, then I expect to see 100% accuracy of useage for all personal and place names from anywhere in the world, including the use of the correct script for those names emanating from lands where the Latin script is not used. I expect that Don will be charged (we all know he has absolutely nothing else to do with his time, after all!) with checking every post and summarily deleting any offending ones.

Alternatively, you could all just try being a little more tolerant and consider that not everyone is as clever, as well-informed or as well-educated as you.

Personally, whilst I strive to use language well, I am also conscious that any attempt to place it in a straitjacket is the way to kill a language. Language is a organic things and changes and evolves all the time. Even names are not set in stone - do a little research on the name of your town or village and you will find that it has probably fluctuated wildly over the conturies. So have family names, as any genealogist can attest. If we accept that process was valid and led to the way we speak and write and name things today, then we cannot complain if we find that it is continuing to happen. the jey thing is, do you understand clearly who or what the person is talking about? If the answer is Yes, is there really a problem? Or are you just being a bit anally retentive?

#37 petefenelon

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:27

Originally posted by BRG
If this is to be a zero tolerance zone, then I expect to see 100% accuracy of useage


Don't you mean usage?;)

#38 Garagiste

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:33

The source of some of these mistakes perhaps?


Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marcs four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.


OK, it's old but this is TNF. ;)

#39 Darren Galpin

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:37

But there is a difference between history and the present development of English (or any language for that matter), and that is the present day availability and dissemination of information. The major languages have all standardised on an agreed set of words and spellings, whereas in the past, spellings and pronounciation would have varied enormously between regions. The widespread availability of the printed word in the standardised language means that spelling has become standardised as well, and less prone to changes. The changes in most names reflected in genealogy is due to the clergy being unable to spell correctly (or the name owners not being able to spell their own names), rather than reflecting a changing language.

The printed (and electronic) word means that things are more standardised, and there is less of a reason to get things wrong. However, that doesn't mean that we should expect everyone to get everything right all of the time, especially when that person is attempting to communicate in a language other than their main one. Basically it boils down to this: you do the best you can. However, when you are charging people for the information you are giving (as in newspapers, magazines, books etc), then you have a duty to get that information right. After all, if you purchased a car and a bolt was fitted incorrectly, you would take it back to get it fixed, and there could well be a product recall. There is no equivalent duty of care for information.......

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#40 Racer.Demon

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:59

Originally posted by mikedeering
Just ask Ralph Schumacher.


Or Christian Klein.

#41 Mallory Dan

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 10:23

Two words that really annoy me in any context, are "Appropriate/Inappropriate", and "Robust". Surely things are either right or wrong, or in the latter case, strong and certain. Weaselly phrases like these make my blood boil, typical of 'modern life' in not wanting to offend anyone, but unwilling to make a definite conclusion. Blame the lawyers again I guess...

A 'Grumpy Old Dan'

#42 ensign14

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 11:23

Something could be right but inappropriate. Like delivering the eulogy at a driver's funeral by saying that his death was driver error. May be right, but hardly appropriate.

#43 VAR1016

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:18

Some of the car dealers are awful.

How many times have you seen the term "Concourse condition"? (i.e. the car resembles the open area at the front of a railway station).

One dealer offered a Daimler "State Launderlet" and another Ferrari dealer claims to be "specialists in all tipo"

Grrrr :mad:

PdeRL

#44 David McKinney

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:53

Originally posted by ensign14
Something could be right but inappropriate. Like delivering the eulogy at a driver's funeral by saying that his death was driver error. May be right, but hardly appropriate.

True
But there is a tendency these days to use "appropriate" in other circumstances where "right" would be the better choice

#45 Option1

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 13:07

Originally posted by BRG
If this is to be a zero tolerance zone, then I expect to see 100% accuracy of useage for all personal and place names from anywhere in the world, including the use of the correct script for those names emanating from lands where the Latin script is not used. I expect that Don will be charged (we all know he has absolutely nothing else to do with his time, after all!) with checking every post and summarily deleting any offending ones.

Alternatively, you could all just try being a little more tolerant and consider that not everyone is as clever, as well-informed or as well-educated as you.

Personally, whilst I strive to use language well, I am also conscious that any attempt to place it in a straitjacket is the way to kill a language. Language is a organic things and changes and evolves all the time. Even names are not set in stone - do a little research on the name of your town or village and you will find that it has probably fluctuated wildly over the conturies. So have family names, as any genealogist can attest. If we accept that process was valid and led to the way we speak and write and name things today, then we cannot complain if we find that it is continuing to happen. the jey thing is, do you understand clearly who or what the person is talking about? If the answer is Yes, is there really a problem? Or are you just being a bit anally retentive?

:up: :up:

Besides, if parents give their kids funny names then they should expect they'll be spelled funny at times.

As BRG touched on, and as much as I detest words such as "kewl", "props", etc, (and I won't even go into the bastardization of "respect" so that it means "fear"), there's no denying they are part of the language now days. English is a developing language and no doubt will continue to be so.

Oh and let's not forget "color" v "colour". If the two major english-speaking nations can't even come close to agreeing on how words should be spelled then what hope is there? :)

Neil/Neal/Neale/Niel/Kneel/Hey-you

#46 T54

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 13:52

Even names are not set in stone - do a little research on the name of your town or village and you will find that it has probably fluctuated wildly over the conturies.



Come on fellows, let's not get this totally out of hand. All what some of us are moaning about here (and justifiably so) is simply the misspelling of proper NAMES, not the entire vocabulary of our basic language. Let's not get carried away and understand that old gurmudgeons or furriners may mis-type the word 'tediouss".

And BRG, my village has indeed, wildly fluctuated over the centuries: the Normands razed it in 1203. And that's AD. :cat:

#47 ReWind

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 14:44

Originally posted by ReWind (in the "Kaushen-Renault" [sic!] thread)
Please, TNFers, pay attention to the correct spelling of names. Otherwise the "Search BB" button becomes useless. When you look for "Kauhsen" it will overlook "Kaushen".

Personally, I don't understand those negligences. Jetanzy, Narazzo, Carampi, Novurali, Caccariola, Chorin, Gruney, Porst, Bacchirello, Moytona - they all come naturally to me.

My thoughts from October 2003...

#48 VAR1016

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 14:46

Originally posted by T54


Come on fellows, let's not get this totally out of hand. All what some of us are moaning about here (and justifiably so) is simply the misspelling of proper NAMES, not the entire vocabulary of our basic language. Let's not get carried away and understand that old gurmudgeons or furriners may mis-type the word 'tediouss".

And BRG, my village has indeed, wildly fluctuated over the centuries: the Normands razed it in 1203. And that's AD. :cat:


"Normands"? Used to be a Mercedes-Benz dealer in London...:)

PdeRL

#49 T54

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 14:56

The Normands are the inhabitants of Normandy. The Normans are the invaders from Normandy to Britain, the "d" having escaped over the centuries at the same time the Brits added the "e" to "concours". :wave:

#50 ensign14

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 15:02

And the people of Normandy are proverbial in France for their sagacity.

Hence, a French MEP opined on an intractable problem which he said could only be solved by "la sagesse des Normands".

Unfortunately, the simultaneous translation to the British and Irish MEPs was "What we need to solve this problem is Norman wisdom."