172 replies to this topic

[Macca]

Charles,

I was wrong about it being a McRae - I probably just remembered that car because it was my favourite. FTD went to Godfrey Compton in, apparently, a Leda LT25....but the picture in MN that I put in my cuttings file shows it having a March 752 nosecone (and running back to the start along the pavement!).

That sounds like the right bike - it was a special of some sort, probably a Rickman-framed-and-faired overbored Kawa Z1, from the days when Jap bikes had frames, forks and brakes made from tinfoil, so there was a thriving trade in replacement rolling chassis.


Paul M

[Stephen W]

MACCA - you must remember that Hillclimb and Sprint cars always evolved and the fitting of an F2 March nosecone to a F5000 was not unheard of!

If anyone can add any information to the Sprint Championship website's Results Archive please let me know so it can be incorporated. The site is evolving as we speak and I am currently working on a parrallel website which will be maintained independantly and on which there will be a photographic history.

[Gav Astill]

Quote

Originally posted by dolomite

I snapped this BRM P160 at Weston-Super-Mare Speed Trials in 1980. I have no recollection whatsoever of who it belonged to or who was driving it. Anybody have any idea?

After a little more research I've narrowed it down to P160 chassis 05,07,09 or 10. This is based on the fact that the car is clearly tp P160'E' spec, and in 1974 livery. The P160 that John McCartney was campaigning in the late 70's was chassis 09, so I guess he is the most likely candidate.

[Stephen W]

1970 Blackpool 14/06/70 Paul Pycroft 3.0 BRM P261/153 V12
1973 Weston 06/10/73 Tony Griffiths 3.0 Brabham-Cosworth DFV BT33
1976 Oulton Park 03/04/76 John Ravenscroft 3.0 Lyncar-Cosworth DFV MS4
1976 Curborough 25/04/76 David Render 3.0 Lotus-Cosworth DFV 76
1976 Blackpool 20/06/76 John McCartney 3.0 BRM P160 V12
1976 Wroughton 01/08/76 John Ravenscroft 3.0 Token-Cosworth DFV F101
1977 Blackpool 26/06/77 John McCartney 3.0 BRM P180 V12
1978 Longridge 18/06/78 John McCartney 3.0 BRM P153 V12
1978 Blackpool 16/07/78 David Render 3.0 Lotus-Cosworth DFV 77
1978 Blackpool 16/07/78 John McCartney 3.0 BRM P160 V12
1979 Oulton Park 07/04/79 Simon Riley 3.0 March-Cosworth DFV 741
1980 Curborough 27/04/80 Mark Williams 3.3 Hesketh-Cosworth DFV 308E

The above is a list of the ex-F1 cars to take part in the British Sprint Championship.

The website does carry a bit more information such as chassis numbers.

[Mallory Dan]

I'm staggered Steve that these are the only ones. Did the Riley/Rollason Brabs never take part, nor the various March '761s' that were around in the 70s/80s ???

[Twin Window]

Quote

Originally posted by Stephen W

1976 Curborough 25/04/76 David Render 3.0 Lotus-Cosworth DFV 76

I was there, but couldn't remember when it was! I recall Holman Blackburn (spl?) was also there in his Capri

(And didn't take my camera as I wasn't expecting to see any F1 cars )

[Stephen W]

There were several appearances of March 761s in sprinting but NONE had the prerequisite F1 Cosworth DFV installed, they always seemed to have the Ford/Cosworth V6 unit providing the motive power.

Simon Riley did compete but in the same BT33 that Griffiths used.

The Rollason BT37 never featured in the British Sprint Championship, which is not to say it didn't do any sprints!

The hillclimb fraternity often did Brighton &/or Weston, however not all registered for the championship.

[Nordic1]

Bobby Bell was entered in his BRM P153 at Brighton in 1978, as was Render in a Lotus 77 and S Riley with a Brabham BT33, He was in fact the record holder from 77 either driving a 'Monsieur Houbigant' or jointly with him.

Who or what was 'Monsieur Houbigant'

[Tim Murray]

I think that some of these cars took part in more than just the events listed by Steve. I certainly recall Simon Riley's March and Mark Williams' Hesketh competing at our club's Colerne events in the years specified, and the Hesketh was definitely DFV-powered (I can't remember what powered the March).

[MCS]

Quote

Originally posted by Nordic1
Bobby Bell was entered in his BRM P153 at Brighton in 1978, as was Render in a Lotus 77 and S Riley with a Brabham BT33, He was in fact the record holder from 77 either driving a 'Monsieur Houbigant' or jointly with him.

Who or what was 'Monsieur Houbigant'

I always thought it was aftershave...(but certainly Riley's sponsor).

Mark

[Mallory Dan]

Quote

Originally posted by Nordic1
Bobby Bell was entered in his BRM P153 at Brighton in 1978, as was Render in a Lotus 77 and S Riley with a Brabham BT33, He was in fact the record holder from 77 either driving a 'Monsieur Houbigant' or jointly with him.

Who or what was 'Monsieur Houbigant'

Think it was an Aftershave of some sort. I remember getting a sticker for the brand in about 1975-76-77 ish, showing the BT33. Didn't buy the stuff though, I was only 13 or so then, and still don't buy any of it now, bit too poncey for me ! Is that why people give me a wide berth in crowded spaces ...

[Twin Window]

Quote

Originally posted by Nordic1

Who or what was 'Monsieur Houbigant'

Aftershave, matey.

You were probably using Brut 33.

[Twin Window]

Blimey!

[Stephen W]

Please Note: the list I posted earlier just lists the first appearance of a car in the sprint championship. I thought that page after page of the same basic info would be a bit tedious!

If you check out www.britishsprint.org you will find the full results and be able to pick out the specific events you went to.

[Huw Jadvantich]

The various March DFVs didn't compete in Sprints, but did compete in hillclimbs, notably Roy Lane and Sir Nick Williamson. I think it was Sir Nick who when asked what he did for a living said 'er, nothing actually'.

[petefenelon]

Quote

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
The various March DFVs didn't compete in Sprints, but did compete in hillclimbs, notably Roy Lane and Sir Nick Williamson. I think it was Sir Nick who when asked what he did for a living said 'er, nothing actually'.

I thought Sir Nick's first was a 712 (F2) fitted with a DFV - just as a matter of curiosity, did that appear on the hills before or after the works did a similar thing with the 722 to get the 721G?

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Think it was an Aftershave of some sort. I remember getting a sticker for the brand in about 1975-76-77 ish, showing the BT33. Didn't buy the stuff though, I was only 13 or so then, and still don't buy any of it now, bit too poncey for me ! Is that why people give me a wide berth in crowded spaces ...

Aftershave, matey.

You were probably using Brut 33.


BT33 and Brut 33....they were made for each other!!

[James Page]

Nice to see someone mention Tom Hammonds in an earlier thread! I grew up around British Hillclimbing, watching my Dad compete, and Tom was the only other car that I HAD to see go up Shelsley whenever we were there. I believe he eventually got the Audi up in under 30 seconds - pretty quick!

Had a lovely picture of Dad unloading his Reynard on a misty morning in the Shelsley paddock, alongside R4D. Don't know where it is now......

[petefenelon]

Quote

Originally posted by James Page
Nice to see someone mention Tom Hammonds in an earlier thread! I grew up around British Hillclimbing, watching my Dad compete, and Tom was the only other car that I HAD to see go up Shelsley whenever we were there. I believe he eventually got the Audi up in under 30 seconds - pretty quick!

Had a lovely picture of Dad unloading his Reynard on a misty morning in the Shelsley paddock, alongside R4D. Don't know where it is now......

I think that would've been me - I watched Tom's Audi slack-jawed with amazement on a few occasions. Tom was good, but I wonder what the likes of youug Priaulx or Wight or Fleetwood could've done in that car....

(I first saw the current European Touring Car Champions competing at Harewood ;))

[James Page]

True. Also, Hannu Mikkola demonstrated a Group B Quattro at Shelsey on its 75th (or 80th?) anniversary and got it up in 29 seconds on his first run - without having seen the hill before!

Sorry, this is all slightly off-thread! blah blah formula one cars and engines blah

[Stephen W]

Mikkola held the Closed Car record for some years with that climb. Don't know if he still does?

Back to Formula 1 & F5000 cars in UK Hillclimbs and Sprints.

Several cars would have qualified for both i.e. Single Seaters which utilised either ex-F1 engines or eligible engines for F5000.

Some of the first Mclaren M10A chassis to appear on the hills were built specifically for this discipline and never were raced on the circuits in their original form.

Potential F5000 cars:

Patsy Burt - 4.5 McLaren-Oldsmobile M3A
Richhard Thwaites - 3.5 Brabham-Buick BT18
Bob Rose - 5.0/5.3 Mclaren-Chevrolet M10B
Roy Lane - 5.0/5.5 McLaren-Chevrolet M10B
Tony Bradwell - Brabham-Oldsmobile BT21 Quattro
Johnty Williamson - 5.0 McLaren-Chevrolet M10A/B

All these cars would have been F5000 eligible given they kept to the 5000cc upper limit. All of these cars up to 1972 had not featured on the circuits.

[Tim Murray]

Quote

Originally posted by James Page
Hannu Mikkola demonstrated a Group B Quattro at Shelsey on its 75th (or 80th?) anniversary and got it up in 29 seconds on his first run - without having seen the hill before!

Sorry, this is all slightly off-thread! blah blah formula one cars and engines blah

That would have been at the 1986 meeting to commemorate Hans Stuck's visit to Shelsley with a C type Auto Union in 1936.



Getting back on thread (well, almost), here's a genuine GP car at the same Shelsley meeting.



(Now going totally OT) James, would you by any chance be the son of John Page from Thornbury? If so, I think I met you a couple of years ago when you and your Dad came along to our club quiz night.

[James Page]

I am indeed! I believe you narrowly stole victory from us on the occasion of the quiz night......

nice picture of mikkola by the way. i spent many a childhood hour standing where that photo was taken from!

[Tim Murray]

Quote

Originally posted by James Page
I am indeed! I believe you narrowly stole victory from us on the occasion of the quiz night......

IIRC it all hinged on knowing who the first British winner of a F3000 race was.

Quote

nice picture of mikkola by the way. i spent many a childhood hour standing where that photo was taken from!

That was about the only place I could get a reasonable photo with the little Rollei I had at the time. It was good for paddock shots, though.

It's good to see you here, James. Is your Dad still doing hillclimbs in France? Do try to get him onto TNF - I'm sure he'd love it here.

Tim

[JOHN PAGE]

Quote

Originally posted by Tim Murray

That would have been at the 1986 meeting to commemorate Hans Stuck's visit to Shelsley with a C type Auto Union in 1936.



Getting back on thread (well, almost), here's a genuine GP car at the same Shelsley meeting.



(Now going totally OT) James, would you by any chance be the son of John Page from Thornbury? If so, I think I met you a couple of years ago when you and your Dad came along to our club quiz night.

[JOHN PAGE]

Hi Tim !
James has just got me up to speed!
I remember another couple of F1 cars at sprints.
At Yeovilton in 1968(or so 1) a Toby St George Matthews lined up a Cooper Maserati alongside my Alvis !
I also remember an Alvin Powell turning up at Pembrey with a Ram (in Rothmans colours I think) but can't pin-point the date;probably 1991 but maybe earlier.

[Pete Stowe]

Quote

Originally posted by JOHN PAGE
Hi Tim !
James has just got me up to speed!
I remember another couple of F1 cars at sprints.
At Yeovilton in 1968(or so 1) a Toby St George Matthews lined up a Cooper Maserati alongside my Alvis !
I also remember an Alvin Powell turning up at Pembrey with a Ram (in Rothmans colours I think) but can't pin-point the date;probably 1991 but maybe earlier.

Hi John, nice to see you here

[Tim Murray]

Greetings John!

I remember Alvin Powell hillclimbing and sprinting a fearsome 5 litre Boss Mustang in the '80s; didn't know he'd ever got his hands on an F1 car.

[Stephen W]

Details of Alvin Powell's F1 car

1989 Rd12 British Sprint Weston 07/10/89 11th 3.6 March-Cosworth DFV 821-RM07

The car was in te Rothman's Livery and had been entered by Ram Racing in F1

Suspect the engine was out of a long distance sports car - possibly a Spice?

[Mallory Dan]

Quote

Originally posted by Stephen W
Details of Alvin Powell's F1 car

1989 Rd12 British Sprint Weston 07/10/89 11th 3.6 March-Cosworth DFV 821-RM07

The car was in te Rothman's Livery and had been entered by Ram Racing in F1

Suspect the engine was out of a long distance sports car - possibly a Spice?

Not neccessarily out of a Sportscar, if some of the rumours re 'oversized F12 engines' were true !

[dolomite]

Quote

Originally posted by dolomite
I snapped this BRM P160 at Weston-Super-Mare Speed Trials in 1980. I have no recollection whatsoever of who it belonged to or who was driving it. Anybody have any idea?

In the course of looking for something else in the loft today I found the programme for the above event, which I had no idea I still posessed...... In it the driver of the P160 is listed as Fred Burt of Tisbury.

[petefenelon]

Quote

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Not neccessarily out of a Sportscar, if some of the rumours re 'oversized F12 engines' were true !

Well yes.... that team is one that some of the more specific rumours concerned ;)

[Stephen W]

1948 to 1964 Inclusive

26/08/48 Bob Gerard 1.9s ERA B-Type - Bo'ness
23/06/51 Ken Wharton 1.1 Cooper-J.A.P. T12 - Shelsley Walsh
11/09/55 Michael Christie 2.5 Connaught B-Type - Prescott
05/05/57 Michael Christie 1.5 Cooper-Climax FPF T43 - Prescott
05/05/57 Jimmy Stuart 2.0 Cooper-Bristol T20 - Prescott
03/05/59 Tony Marsh 1.5 Lotus-Climax 12 - Prescott
01/05/60 Arthur Owen 2.2 Cooper-Climax T45 - Prescott
07/05/61 Tony Marsh 1.5 Lotus-Climax 18 - Prescott
07/05/61 Arthur Owen 2.2 Cooper-Climax T51 - Prescott
11/06/61 Ray Fielding 1.5 Emeryson-Climax - Shelsley Walsh
01/07/61 Jack Cordingley 2.5 JBW-Maserati - Rest and be Thankful
27/08/61 Tony Marsh 2.5 BRM P48/57 - Shelsley Walsh
06/05/62 Ray Fielding 2.5 BRM P48 - Prescott
06/05/62 Arthur Owen 2.5 Cooper-Climax T53 - Prescott
25/05/63 Ray Fielding 2.2 Lotus-Climax 21 - Barbon Manor
26/04/64 Peter Westbury 2.5 Ferguson-Climax P99 - Loton Park

NB all of the above are the first appearances of these types of car in the British Hillclimb Championship.

[humphries]

Steve

Congratulations on your website. I mentioned it to by brother-in-law, John Ravenscroft. He did quite a few seasons sprinting with, I think, a Lotus 7, a U2, a BT21A, a Lola T142 ( in which he won the championship), a McLaren M10B, a Lyncar with a DFV sports car engine and the Token F1.

His accounts of those days when he and his dad, Arthur, raced in the 70's are both entertaining and enlightening. If you E-mail me I will supply you with his E-Mail address. He would be happy to supply information if he can.

John

[David McKinney]

Quote

Originally posted by Stephen W
1948 to 1964 Inclusive

26/08/48 Bob Gerard 1.9s ERA B-Type - Bo'ness
23/06/51 Ken Wharton 1.1 Cooper-J.A.P. T12 - Shelsley Walsh
11/09/55 Michael Christie 2.5 Connaught B-Type - Prescott
05/05/57 Michael Christie 1.5 Cooper-Climax FPF T43 - Prescott
05/05/57 Jimmy Stuart 2.0 Cooper-Bristol T20 - Prescott
03/05/59 Tony Marsh 1.5 Lotus-Climax 12 - Prescott
01/05/60 Arthur Owen 2.2 Cooper-Climax T45 - Prescott
07/05/61 Tony Marsh 1.5 Lotus-Climax 18 - Prescott
07/05/61 Arthur Owen 2.2 Cooper-Climax T51 - Prescott
11/06/61 Ray Fielding 1.5 Emeryson-Climax - Shelsley Walsh
01/07/61 Jack Cordingley 2.5 JBW-Maserati - Rest and be Thankful
27/08/61 Tony Marsh 2.5 BRM P48/57 - Shelsley Walsh
06/05/62 Ray Fielding 2.5 BRM P48 - Prescott
06/05/62 Arthur Owen 2.5 Cooper-Climax T53 - Prescott
25/05/63 Ray Fielding 2.2 Lotus-Climax 21 - Barbon Manor
26/04/64 Peter Westbury 2.5 Ferguson-Climax P99 - Loton Park

NB all of the above are the first appearances of these types of car in the British Hillclimb Championship.

At a cursory glance, this doesn't look quite right to me
•Did Mays really use a B-Type?
•Did Christie drive a T43 Cooper in 1957? He certainly hillclimbed Rob Walker's T41. Tony Marsh would have been running his T43 about then, though
•Stuart's Cooper-Bristol was a T23 - surely other CBs were used before then? Maybe not...
•Didn't Christie use a Lotus 12 in 1958?
•Marsh would certainly have used a T45 before Owen did

[Stephen W]

Dave - where did Raymond Mays come from?

The details in my previous post are lifted from Paul Sheldon's book. It was an attempt to show it wasn't just the DFV powered F1 cars that hit the hills.

However if it provokes more discussions all the better!

[Charles Helps]

Quote

Originally posted by David McKinney

At a cursory glance, this doesn't look quite right to me
...
•Didn't Christie use a Lotus 12 in 1958?
...

I hesitate to try to correct you, David, but I believe the Michael Christie car used a single cam Coventry Climax FWB (Doug Nye's Theme Lotus) and is therefore not strictly an ex-F1 car?

[David McKinney]

Quote

Originally posted by Stephen W
Dave - where did Raymond Mays come from?

I'm sure my screen said "Raymond mays" where it now says "Bob Gerard" :

Quote

Originally posted by Stephen W
The details in my previous post are lifted from Paul Sheldon's book. It was an attempt to show it wasn't just the DFV powered F1 cars that hit the hills.

Ah, now I understand
But a lot of cars on your list aren't F1 or ex-F1, though I suppose you could cover it by calling them cars of a type which might have competed in Grands Prix

[Stephen W]

David, you have hit the nail on the head. A lot of drivers in the late 50s/early 60s converted F2 Coopers and Lotus cars into an F1 spec. Thus they were to all intents and purposes equivalent to F1. Also I only selected those types which actually did compete in F1!

Thus a Lotus 18 with a 1.5 Climax installed is an acceptable F1 car even though they were originally intended for the 2.5 Climax for F1.

Only B and E Type ERAs ran in F1. Thus any ERAs of those types would be equivalent to F1.

[Stephen W]

HUMPHRIES - left a PM for you. I would love to establish contact with John Ravenscroft as so much of our Sprint Archives which are missing data are from his era.

[Pete Stowe]

Can anyone identify the car and driver in this photo for me please? It was taken at a 1976 sprint – I have an entry list for the event in question, but there are several possibilities which perhaps the sprint car experts may be able to narrow down.



(Of course it may not actually be an ex-F1/F5000 engine/chassis, but I thought this was the most appropriate thread to post in).

[MCS]

I'm sure I'll be corrected by Steve W or somebody else shortly (!), so I'll get my oar in quickly as it were...

Is it Terry Smith in a McLaren M10B? Is it an M10B or something else though - M14?!! maybe?

[Michael Oliver]

Quote

Originally posted by Pete Stowe
Can anyone identify the car and driver in this photo for me please? It was taken at a 1976 sprint – I have an entry list for the event in question, but there are several possibilities which perhaps the sprint car experts may be able to narrow down.



(Of course it may not actually be an ex-F1/F5000 engine/chassis, but I thought this was the most appropriate thread to post in).

As an aside, is it just me or is the car bending in the middle?! Wouldn't be surprised if the driver had sticking throttle/gear selection woes on a frequent basis... Sorry, can't help on ID-ing the car, I'm afraid. My only comment is that it looks a bit small for an M10B F5000, perhaps a F2 or F3-based car such as a Brabham? Appears to be bath-tub type construction with a cockpit surround, which again probably rules out M10B, also quite a small nose inlet for the rads etc.

[Allen Brown]

If it's a McLaren then Terry Smith's M14D-Chev would be favourite over Dave Harris' M10B/M14-Chev. The M10B tub extended right to the back and this one doesn't. Is it even a tub? The rear suspension mounts go inside the bodywork which makes me think it's a spaceframe.

Actually, I think it's more like a Brabham than a McLaren.

But what's that engine? Is that a DFV?

Errr.. Simon Riley's BT33?

You've got me stumped!

Allen

[Tim Murray]

FWIW, there is a Huntsman Garage (David Franklin's old place in Bristol) sticker on the rear wing end plate. I don't remember Franklin himself ever driving anything like that, but it might confirm a Bristol link (eg Smith or Harris).

[Stephen W]

Well! It isn't the BT33 of Simon Riley an it isn't an M10B.

It isn't in a sprint either as there is no number on the car! Possibly a convoy run at the start of the day?

However it does look like the McLaren-Chevrolet M14D/1 which was initially sprinted by Bob Rose in 1976 but then taken over by Terry Smith (my money is on Terry Smith!).

The venue looks like an old airfield circuit so put me out of my misery Pete, where was the photo taken?

[macoran]

Yes Michael O it does seem bent where the engine mates to the chassis.

No Allen B that isn't a DFV........my first thought seeing the pic ...what block is that ?

Stephen W... M14D ? but not Chevy

......dare we wonder if that is an Alfa V8 ?

would that make the car an M7D ex de Adamich ?

It still looks too much Brabhamish to me

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by macoran
Yes Michael O it does seem bent where the engine mates to the chassis.

I don't know....it could be bending its chassis I suppose....or is the front bodywork just pointing down

[macoran]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


I don't know....it could be bending its chassis I suppose....or is the front bodywork just pointing down

No No......not the front body.......look at where the engine joins the spaceframe/monocoque whatever it is.
....draw an imaginary line over the split/joint in the bodywork..... and project the line to run under the cam covers.
It doesn"t even look bent.....more ready to break in half !!!

[macoran]

At least it is clearly a 90 degree V8

What did the last Repco Tasman engine look like for cam covers ?

Or a Buick/Olds block with Edelbrock cam covers ?