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"Not one of us" - Bernie, Max, Stoddart, etc.


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#51 petefenelon

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 13:00

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Originally posted by ian senior
except possibly the sound of the engines.


...which is too damn samey for me these days, and (slips into "newcomer to F1") "why do they sound like a 50 quid Fiesta backfiring when they brake for the corners?" ;)

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And do they just drive round like that all afternoon - doesn't anyone pass another car?


I find it easier to explain Le Mans to the "innocent" than modern F1 strategy.

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OK, a bit extreme I know - or is it?


No, I don't think it is. F1 these days is only interesting if you follow the behind-the-scenes story. What goes on on track is, beyond a certain kinetic spectacle (but not even much of that - after all F1 cars aren't all that fast in a straight line) not terribly interesting.

Oh, and British viewers have got that twunt James Allen yammering on at great length and volume about how six cars following each other round at 100 yard intervals is "a thrilling strategic battle".... which helps me to tune out ;)

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#52 Peter Morley

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 13:15

Quote

Originally posted by ian senior
Let's pretend. Imagine you have never seen a motor race before, you know nothing about the sport, and in an idle moment you sit down in front of the box to watch a grand prix - any grand prix. Just what is it about F1 that would grab your attention, and make you want to watch again and find out more.

Believe me, I've just tried this, although it wasn't a fair experiment for one who has some historical baggage. And I couldn't think of a thing, except possibly the sound of the engines.

Anyway, imagine watching this race, and break it down into the component parts of what you see. The cars - OK, which one is which? They do look a bit samey, don't they? And it's not as if there are many truly distinctive colour schemes to distinguish them - most are over-designed. Aren't you supposed to be able to tell the cars by the numbers - can't see one. Drivers? Presumably there is one in there, can't see much of him though. Someone said that drivers all had distinctive helmet colours - did Jackson Pollock do all these mish-mash helmet designs? Why do they keep stopping every 20 minutes or so? God, wish those blokes at Kwik Fit could change my tyres so quickly. Bit tedious with that red car p*****g off into the distance - isn't anyone going to make a race of it? And do they just drive round like that all afternoon - doesn't anyone pass another car?

OK, a bit extreme I know - or is it?


Think I'll join back in with the mutal respect club - I adree with Ian, Dan, etc!

My girlfriend couldn't even drive when I met her, and she had no interest whatsoever in racing.
Through me she has become rather immersed in historic racing (when watching Grand prix recently she noticed that the Lotus 16 was rather narrower than the ones we race against!), but she does ask some surprising questions.

For example part way through a Grand prix she asks what is so interesting about this?
Well the best you can come up with is they are going very quickly round the corners - our lap times are half theirs e.g. they are going twice as quick round that corner.

She does want to go to a GP to experience all the gloss and show and the noise but not to watch any racing.

Other questions ( as well as Ian's observations) include:
if it is so exciting why do you always fall asleep during a GP?
how come the cars are so spread out?
what do you mean the car that is 3rd on the track is really in the lead (e.g. the other 2 haven't stopped)?
why is he happy to sit behind that car rather than overtake it?

Last time we did a GP support race (pre-girlfriend days, with pre-66 F1) the public came and told us how much more exciting our race was (cars close together, overtaking etc) than the GP.
In fact a friend who has been involved in racing since before the 1st GP at Silverstone (e.g. he was working there) fell asleep at the beginning of the GP (they were kind enough to give us grandstand seats) and woke up at the end - and when asked if he'd missed anything was told no!

A lot of casual viewers tend to look at a bunch of cars driving round in circles and wonder what the fuss is about.

I don't think many people ask how many revs is that engine doing, is it using an electronic torque biasing differential, are they using dimpled surfaces on their wings.........

The only people I've met who seem to think current F1 is interesting are the younger generation, e.g. those who haven't known any better.
This was really bought home when I mentioned the Donington GP, which has to be one of the most amazing races I've seen - at the time I thought that was a recent race (it was about 15 years after my 1st GP) and the person I was talking to hadn't even been watching F1 at that time.

All of which just proves I'm getting old, which is something I really don't want to be reminded of!

#53 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 13:36

Quote

Originally posted by Peter Morley
.....All of which just proves I'm getting old, which is something I really don't want to be reminded of!


But what a benefit when you consider the kind of memories you'll take to the nursing home!

#54 fines

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 18:06

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Originally posted by billthekat


I have never understood why "F1" is still so solidly anchored in the mechanical age when if were actually all about being on the "cutting edge of technology" -- which it most assuredly is not by any means -- there would be a formula based upon the restriction of emissions or the use of alternative fuels or using innovative power sources. Instead, it is the same ol' **** in "new, improved" packaging each year....

Sorry, but about the only real technical differences between 1955 and 2005 in a many ways are really very minimal -- looks have changed and some gadgets are simply better, but it is still a vehicle with an ICE using fossil fuel, regardless of the fancy packaging. Why no provisions for hybrids or other innovative approaches? If GPWC made that the core of their package versus simply working the PR angle and recutting the pie, it might be a bit more interesting than the on-going spat between two fat, greedy entities clawing at each other over the most crass of issues -- the obscene amounts of money that get poured into F1 to ensure that the rich stay rich and get richer.....

VERY WELL said, Don! :up:

Although I do have to admit that, like mohican, I can see nothing wrong with manufacturers involvement. But the "best sentence award" must go to Pete, for "What I want is integrity." YES!!!

Let's admit it, racing has not always been "great" in our days, but so what? If someone's earned an advantage, they are perfectly entitled to bask in its sunshine. What I can't stand is this "levelling up" for the sake of a "good show" - urgh! If I want that I can always watch NASCAR, or DTM...

Of course, everything we say is coloured by our background - don't you remember the old farts that were constantly bashing F1 when you were young, saying it wasn't like it used to be. Well, that's us now! I can live with it, but I'd really like to see Racing again like it used to be when I fell in love with it. Can't have it back, so I'm going to get divorced. Hey, that's life!

By the way, I really enjoy seeing that Jean-Marie Balestre gets a somewhat different review these days - that's what I have been all about since 1991! :lol:

#55 Keir

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 18:17

Can this thread be sent over to "Racing Comments" ???

#56 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 18:56

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Originally posted by Keir
Can this thread be sent over to "Racing Comments" ???

What on earth for? I'm enjoying it greatly, and agree with most of what has been said. If it goes to RC I certainly shan't follow it (I haven't the time or inclination), so my life will be the poorer. :cry:

#57 Keir

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 19:07

Tim, It's just not TNF stuff!!

#58 Racecar

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 19:19

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Originally posted by ian senior
Bit tedious with that red car p*****g off into the distance - isn't anyone going to make a race of it? And do they just drive round like that all afternoon - doesn't anyone pass another car?

OK, a bit extreme I know - or is it?



erm ... yes, it is, a bit. Also a bit contrived. Up to 16 March 2005, no red car has yet pissed off into the distance.

Nonetheless - be of good cheer. It could still happen for you. :lol:

#59 LB

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 19:21

Quote

Originally posted by Keir
Can this thread be sent over to "Racing Comments" ???


Good lord, no. It is a refreshing change to see a debate about contemporary F1 without a barrage of insults (which I admit usually I am part of :).

I am firmly of the opinion that a persons interest in pretty much anything declines over time. You see it in all aspects of life. Do you like your kids music? Do you prefer what you grew up with? Do you still watch sport with the same gusto you did when you were young or read the same magazines. I won't even mention divorces. Twinny and I had a discussion on this very subject a few months ago in another thread that brought up F1 as it is now.

I have had a few good moans in my time about the state of F1 as it is today and I'll freely admit I don't watch it as avidly as I used to, however it is still pretty much the same sport it always was. OK you can't see the drivers as well, you can't see the numbers for tobacco ads and despite all the hoopla it isn't remotely cutting edge technology either ( mind you the technological side has never interested me). There is still a fair chunk of action though if you look hard enough.

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#60 LB

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 19:24

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Originally posted by Keir
Tim, It's just not TNF stuff!!


Why? I would have thought comparing present with past would be very much within the remit of the TNF. Besides ts finally a thread on here I can talk about with some knowledge :D

#61 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 19:40

Quote

Originally posted by Keir
Tim, It's just not TNF stuff!!

I agree to a certain extent. However, in my (very limited) experience of RC, the handbags would have been flying long ago - I just can't cope with all the RC aggro. Here things are discussed in a much friendler fashion. Anyway,

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Originally posted by fines
Of course, everything we say is coloured by our background - don't you remember the old farts that were constantly bashing F1 when you were young, saying it wasn't like it used to be. Well, that's us now!

sums me up perfectly (and I suspect a fair few others here). Why shouldn't we have a (courteous) moan together occasionally? :p

#62 Mallory Dan

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 13:30

Michael, I'm with you completely on Balestre, I thought he had some very good points. He got a lot of bad press of course from the British media, no doubt egged on by MM and BCE, but I've always been a supporter of strong leadership, nothing wrong with a 'benign dictator'...

#63 Mohican

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 14:02

Quote

Originally posted by billthekat
I would have sent it packing almost from the git-go, certainly by the fourth or fifth posting. Nothing personal, but this pretty a case of the world being a tuxedo and the thread a pair of brown shoes.


An open mind is a wonderful thing. Many thanks.

Speaking for myself, I got interested in motor racing in around 1970 and have followed it ever since.

Just think of Rindt vs Stewart at Silverstone in '69, Rindt at Monaco in '70, Monza in '71, Ronnie going round Woodcote at full chat in '73, Rodriguez and Siffert in the 917s, Stuck jumping the BMW at Nürburgring, etc, etc.

Those are the times I want back, or something like it; and I agree that it is very boring watching the current scene. Equally, I agree up to a point that the technical side is uninteresting.

Yes, shaving 0.0001 sec off the next lap through using new brake pads that cost a gazillion dollars to develop makes no sense - but the 80's were great. Carbonfibre monocoques, turbo engines, etc. Simply great.

And: very much safer than before. This is the real benefit of progress - look at at 70's tinfoil special in detail and you will marvel at anybody having survived accidents back then. Take the Lotus 72, for instance - it defies belief that anybody wanted to drive it again after what happened to Rindt. i completely understand and respect John Miles.

Emerson, Ronnie and the rest just saw a very fast Grand Prix car...

#64 Ian Stewart

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 17:37

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Originally posted by billthekat
...this thread is not really an appropriate thread for TNF, but really and truly belongs elsewhere, in this case the RC.



With respect, I cannot agree. RC concerns itself with the present, overlaid by an exchange of personal insults. Interest in the past is virtually non-existent there, so I think the thread would have a very short lifespan indeed.

TNF has seen the past and can see the present, and has the grace to discuss everything in a civilised manner. Disagreement is usually accompanied by knowledgeable explanation, and I think the Forum is thereby ideally placed to debate a comparison with the past and the present.

If there's something I've missed I apologise for my lack of perspicacity.

I'm afraid I'm the odd man out here - I'm totally hooked on today's (and tomorrow's) F1, just as I have been on Grands Prix of every era since WW2.

Chacun a`son gout...

#65 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 18:34

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Originally posted by Mallory Dan
...nothing wrong with a 'benign dictator'...

Oh yes there is.

#66 D-Type

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 00:12

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Originally posted by Ray Bell


~

But, really, I doubt that F1 or any other form of racing ever considers what the spectators want.

NASCAR?

#67 Mohican

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 08:43

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Originally posted by D-Type

NASCAR?


Agree - and I would add the World rally Championship.
Where lots of different people can, and do, win.

#68 LittleChris

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 01:24

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Originally posted by petefenelon


...that twunt James Allen


Care to expand on that word Pete ! :D

#69 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 01:49

Quote

Originally posted by LittleChris
Care to expand on that word Pete !


Perhaps by PM?