56 replies to this topic

[Shiftin]

Hi there, my name is Shiftin and I am new on this Forum...

Anyway, I am not complaing or anything but lately it sometimes takes like 5 minutes between 'hitting the submit reply button' and "your message has been posted, click here if you don't want to wait any longer'

Sometimes, well... most of the times, I get impatient after a few minutes and close the browser. When I restart IE and return to the thread, my post is already there. Some times even dubble (like I so stupid to hit the 'send reply button' twice...)

Post counter behind the thread title also has a hard time with this stuff, and is not amused...... So this is also on his behalf.....

I can live with it but I thought I might give a heads up......

I'm on ISDN slow dial-up when this stuff happens.

Cya...

[Backing-kick]

Old software, old server.

It's being upgraded.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Shiftin
Hi there, my name is Shiftin and I am new on this Forum...

Anyway, I am not complaing or anything but lately it sometimes takes like 5 minutes between 'hitting the submit reply button' and "your message has been posted, click here if you don't want to wait any longer'

Sometimes, well... most of the times, I get impatient after a few minutes and close the browser. When I restart IE and return to the thread, my post is already there. Some times even dubble (like I so stupid to hit the 'send reply button' twice...)

Post counter behind the thread title also has a hard time with this stuff, and is not amused...... So this is also on his behalf.....

I can live with it but I thought I might give a heads up......

I'm on ISDN slow dial-up when this stuff happens.

Cya...

Most of the stuff is on a new server. The forum is still running on an ancient ancient machine which wasn't up to the task even before the massive influx of new people cause by the merger,

It still works (which is probably a credit to whoever is in charge of that sever) but it certianly ain't always quick.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Shiftin
Hi there, my name is Shiftin and I am new on this Forum...

Anyway, I am not complaing or anything but lately it sometimes takes like 5 minutes between 'hitting the submit reply button' and "your message has been posted, click here if you don't want to wait any longer'

Sometimes, well... most of the times, I get impatient after a few minutes and close the browser. When I restart IE and return to the thread, my post is already there. Some times even dubble (like I so stupid to hit the 'send reply button' twice...)

Post counter behind the thread title also has a hard time with this stuff, and is not amused...... So this is also on his behalf.....

I can live with it but I thought I might give a heads up......

I'm on ISDN slow dial-up when this stuff happens.

Cya...

Most of the stuff is on a new server. The forum is still running on an ancient ancient machine which wasn't up to the task even before the massive influx of new people cause by the merger,

It still works (which is probably a credit to whoever is in charge of that sever) but it certianly ain't always quick.

[bira]

I'm curious to get your pespective.

Do you guys think it would be best if I installed the new BB software as a clean installation - i.e. start the BB "from scratch" - while preserving the existing BB database as an "archive" (so people can search and read through it but not post or edit it)?

The disadvantage is, of course, a complete lack of continuity. The advantage is that it will happen quicker, and the service will be much quicker (and cleaner).

I've been in a dilemma over this for a long time, because upgrading the existing BB with new software - while maintaining everything as-is - is proving a complete nightmare and very sisyphus-like task!

[Dudley]

In the offseason I'd say clean.

During a season it's a lot more difficult.

[Viktor]

Is there no way to just take this years posts over to the new server/forum and keep all others as a archive on the old server?

/Viktor

[bira]

Originally posted by Viktor
Is there no way to just take this years posts over to the new server/forum and keep all others as a archive on the old server?

/Viktor

That would be even harder, as it suggests having to manually select content.

[Viktor]

Originally posted by bira
That would be even harder, as it suggests having to manually select content.

Dont know about your DB design but that should not be to hard to fix with a SQL query. But if its not posible I would also say a clean start is the way to go if it helps performence.

/Viktor

[stylus]

It would affect some forums more than others. I'm not a big fan of the current archives being closed threads, though admittedly it's not very often that there's an old thread in PC or RC that needs updating. TNF might implode...

Would we get a clear warning if it was going to happen - a couple of days, a week, at least?

[xflow7]

Disclaimer: I don't know the detailed issues at work in migrating DB's, etc.

With that out of the way, as a general principle I almost always shoot for clean installs (of OS's, equipment, etc) rather than patchworking older stuff. No matter how hard you try, it always seems to me to be more hassle than it's worth to try to make old stuff 'fit' in some new context, and it almost never ends up quite 'right'.

I think stylus is right, though. While having RC archived separately would be a bit of an annoyance, especially for the first couple of weeks/months, it wouldn't really be a big hindreance. After all, how many people really end up searching for an old thread before starting a new one about some dead horse anyway. At worst, we lose a few far-too-long-in-the-tooth JV threads.

However, the discontinuity would be a much larger issue for TNF as it's function has evolved differently, to where it is in large part a repository for historical content, periodically updated as new folks come around with more knowledge, or researchers come across new leads.

So how's that for a strong maybe.

[JForce]

So fresh and so clean. If it makes your job easier and quicker, therefore giving you more time to add new things to the bb and magazine and MyAtlas, rather than spending your time on the task of transferring stuff, then just clear it out and go for it.

[skinnylizard]

i find it hard to disagree. mabe we could make this a fresh start towards BB utopia..

[Thunder]

I did never have problem with the posting. Only editing takes a bit of time and this is because of the search index, not the others. As far as i know there is a crone based hack for this too. The problem is not vb, it is mysql not allowing to release php until the transaction is complete.

Isnt it possible to just index recent data so that we cannot search fo past years but only recent threads?

For double posts, some sites disable the button once it is submitted to prevent that.

It is hard to access old data in the net, this bb is a very good reference place. It was even better if we had pre 2000 posts.

[Sir Frank]

I think a fresh start would be totally OK, one can always search through the old threads and start a new one with a direct link to the old one. I dont see too many old threads popping up again.

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by bira
I'm curious to get your pespective.

Do you guys think it would be best if I installed the new BB software as a clean installation - i.e. start the BB "from scratch" - while preserving the existing BB database as an "archive" (so people can search and read through it but not post or edit it)?

The disadvantage is, of course, a complete lack of continuity. The advantage is that it will happen quicker, and the service will be much quicker (and cleaner).

I've been in a dilemma over this for a long time, because upgrading the existing BB with new software - while maintaining everything as-is - is proving a complete nightmare and very sisyphus-like task!

I would be against this, from a TNF point of view. For example, my WATN thread has a number of external links to it from the web & I'd hate to start four or five ongoing threads all over again. There would be many more on TNF - a lot of these threads, even if not posted every day, are very much "open."
Is there no way of, say, locking them as archive for a short period, say 2-3 days or a week & then, on request by a poster or administrator, re-opening?

I'm for the new BB software, but as long as what is there isn't lost forever. :

[baddog]

Originally posted by bira
I'm curious to get your pespective.

Do you guys think it would be best if I installed the new BB software as a clean installation - i.e. start the BB "from scratch" - while preserving the existing BB database as an "archive" (so people can search and read through it but not post or edit it)?

*shudder*

I know it will probbably be inevitable, but I really find that kind of continuity break to be unfortunate, for no good reason I can quantify

Shaun

[Backing-kick]

Do a clean start.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yes, we can have a start-over at keeping Ray Bell out of #1

[mach4]

I vote for a clean start.

[mahelgel]

I think it would be a shame to "loose" all the threads to an archive, even though its only a few older threads that i post in or read (like the photothread in the paddock club). As Baddog said, i think the stop in continuity would be wrong.

[mach4]

On second thought, I wonder if it would be possible to keep this server active and at the same start the new one on a clean sheet. Eventually I think posting would slow down enough here that it would be easier to shut it down.

[Dudley]

Yeah I would assume that you could turn off posting new topics here and when it's virtually dead in a couple of weeks then archive it.

Hell, if there's the odd popular thread you could manually move that over easy enough.

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by bira
Do you guys think it would be best if I installed the new BB software as a clean installation - i.e. start the BB "from scratch" - while preserving the existing BB database as an "archive" (so people can search and read through it but not post or edit it)?

The disadvantage is, of course, a complete lack of continuity. The advantage is that it will happen quicker, and the service will be much quicker (and cleaner).

A fresh start wouldn't be too dramatic. Outside TNF I think there are few threads that are longrunning and of which the older post bear much relevance in the current discussion.

There would be some continuity breaking in some threads, but nothing much that won't be dealt with by the community within a short period of time, methinks.

[Lukin]

Would it save any time to only bring current threads over and archive the rest? Say every thread without a post in the last 3 months be closed. Is that feasable?

[bira]

The new software has a completely different database architecture. So there is no viable way to move the information - it doesn't matter if it's some threads or everything.

I'm still thinking about it. Not quite sure what I'll do. We'll see.

[Mat]

i say get archive it all and start from scractch. It may be an inconvenience at first, but everyone will soon forget and move on.

[Lukin]

Yeah might as well, if we want to continue a thread we can just reference the URL and keep on moving! Cheers for the reply Bira.

[Gilles4Ever]

Are we talking entire BB or can a distinction be made between different fora?

Is it not possible to archive up to say 6 months ago on the current system, and then migrate the whole system to the new software?

[FordPrefect]

After all the work you and others have been through in the last few months I suggest you take the path of least resistance, you deserve it.

If that means a clean installation then so be it. I know a few of us Paddock Clubers will throw fits but it's not as if that doesn't happen at least once a week anyway.

Give yourself a break, it's not as if we pay for the forums.

[howardt]

Choose the path of simplicity.

What Fordy says - the forum is a free service provided by Atlas.
We think it's great, and we're delighted at the prospect of it getting even better !
So don't feel you're under any obligation to keep old threads about cyclists, dancing bears, mistranslations, iraq, etc

Just please give us a few weeks notice, to unearth the legendary threads before they are cast into the fires of Mordor (or archived, or whatever).

I think Valen has started already....

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by howardt
Choose the path of simplicity.

What Fordy says - the forum is a free service provided by Atlas.
We think it's great, and we're delighted at the prospect of it getting even better !
So don't feel you're under any obligation to keep old threads about cyclists, dancing bears, mistranslations, iraq, etc

Just please give us a few weeks notice, to unearth the legendary threads before they are cast into the fires of Mordor (or archived, or whatever).

I think Valen has started already....

Maybe even give TNF and everyone a 3 month deadline, in our personal time, copy and paste all our important threads in the past on word files, and if anyone needs them, upload them to a site, and post a link, referencing it, it might be alot of work, but if we wanna make a gang or something, to achieve this, like Historcial Atlas's Gang, or The 20 Horsemen of The Atlas Apocalpse.

But I'm pushing it here, none of us I think have the time for this, so I don't really mind what happens with the old threads, but for a historical point, for the long time atlasers, there's sentimental value as well.

So overall, i say archive it all and start from scratch, it seems the best option.

[Lukin]

Originally posted by SeanValen
Maybe even give TNF and everyone a 3 month deadline, in our personal time, copy and paste all our important threads in the past on word files, and if anyone needs them, upload them to a site, and post a link, referencing it, it might be alot of work, but if we wanna make a gang or something, to achieve this, like Historcial Atlas's Gang, or The 20 Horsemen of The Atlas Apocalpse.

I don't think we even need that really. It will all be archived. If we want to continue a thread, we can copy the last few posts into a new one and continue on dribbling **** and attempting to solve the world issue's in 2 pages (124 pages if it's about JV). It will still all be there, just can't be edited.

Start it again to make your life easier Bira (and other BB folks).

[philhitchings]

yeah just restart. the good threads will be begun again and the crap will just dissapear like it should

[Frogman]

Originally posted by philhitchings
yeah just restart. the good threads will be begun again and the crap will just dissapear like it should

Amen

[condor]

I vote for start afresh as well but would also like a few days warning of when it's going to happen

As long as we can still read the archives and link to them...I don't see the problem

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by bira
The new software has a completely different database architecture. So there is no viable way to move the information - it doesn't matter if it's some threads or everything.

I'm still thinking about it. Not quite sure what I'll do. We'll see.

Content wise I think the most relevant losses you get are links. I'm sure that in 'any' format, parsing of the most essential elements (smilies, links, bold, italic, underline) isn't too hard or cpu costly. These could also be done on the new server. Of course, posted links to 'old' threads don't work. Big deal. If the new system is build on a more capable db system (hate to say it, but sql 2000 or higher still beats MySQL on concurrent usage), it wouldn't hurt if there's more data in it or not. Also, seperate 'archived' systems tend to die out at some point as their continued maintenance becomes a kind of nuisance. It will mean actually maintaining 2 systems, regardless if one is read-only, it will still require maintenance of some sort and be the cause of trouble at some point.

The paddock club. One would need to register on the old system or be allowed paddock club priviliges if one would like to read the old paddock club threads.

Finally, one could no longer 'revive' or merge an old thread on a recurring topic of interrest. Not a really big deal, but once in a while it's nice to see continued on discussions in any of the fora. I'd think TNF uses this most of all?

I'd prefer transfering all content to the new server. Once the 'old' data is in SQL server, I could do that with my eyes closed btw.

Just my 2 cents.

[philhitchings]

could the TNF not keep the old server? or am i missing something obvious apart from the fact that they would be getting less of a service perhaps???

[bira]

Originally posted by Mosquito
Content wise I think the most relevant losses you get are links. I'm sure that in 'any' format, parsing of the most essential elements (smilies, links, bold, italic, underline) isn't too hard or cpu costly. These could also be done on the new server. Of course, posted links to 'old' threads don't work. Big deal. If the new system is build on a more capable db system (hate to say it, but sql 2000 or higher still beats MySQL on concurrent usage), it wouldn't hurt if there's more data in it or not. Also, seperate 'archived' systems tend to die out at some point as their continued maintenance becomes a kind of nuisance. It will mean actually maintaining 2 systems, regardless if one is read-only, it will still require maintenance of some sort and be the cause of trouble at some point.

The paddock club. One would need to register on the old system or be allowed paddock club priviliges if one would like to read the old paddock club threads.

Finally, one could no longer 'revive' or merge an old thread on a recurring topic of interrest. Not a really big deal, but once in a while it's nice to see continued on discussions in any of the fora. I'd think TNF uses this most of all?

I'd prefer transfering all content to the new server. Once the 'old' data is in SQL server, I could do that with my eyes closed btw.

Just my 2 cents.

You are talking about hardware, or environment - who cares about that right now, really!

I'm talking about the actual BB software.

[Schuting Star]

Originally posted by condor
I vote for start afresh as well As long as we can still read the archives and link to them...I don't see the problem

Same here. I don't see why popular threads can't be restarted and linked to the archive for those that want to read the history.

[The Soul Stealer]

Wipe it all and start a fresh. You might want to give the dudes over in the Tech and Old Farts forum a heads up though otherwise they're liable to get their knickers in a twist!

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by bira
You are talking about hardware, or environment - who cares about that right now, really!

I'm talking about the actual BB software.

Hmmm. I guess I used to many words for my point.

AIf I understand you correctly, the issue two-fold:
a) The new system is not a simple 'upgrade' as it will require (semi-manual) conversion of the old content to the new database structure. This might be a painfull and tiem consuming operation
b) The new software would be much slower with all the added old content.
c) The content would be much more 'clean' if we don't have the old content in it.

I think b) is open to discussion as a good DB doesn't care too much about either a couple of thousand or a couple of a million entries.
Part c) is a personal preference I guess.

My main point was that with keeping up th old system, you'll have 2 systems. There's a few disadvantages here:
a) You still need to maintain the old system. Even tho it might be not much, it still will need some maintenance.
b) Either the old system needs to be 'open for all to read all' (eg the Paddock Club), or we'd need to change / register users in the old system if they'd want to read old threads.
c) One can't easily quote from old posts. Pretty minor I think, and even if so, only relevant suring a transition period.


As a user, I'd prefer a single system with the old content copied into it. As an administrator, I'd prefer a smooth transition and minimum maintenance. As both, I'd prefer a stable system.

So, well, no idea which makes more sense tbh

[bira]

Originally posted by Mosquito

a) The new system is not a simple 'upgrade' as it will require (semi-manual) conversion of the old content to the new database structure. This might be a painfull and tiem consuming operation
b) The new software would be much slower with all the added old content.
c) The content would be much more 'clean' if we don't have the old content in it.

None of the above.

The existing programme used for this BB is a heavily hacked and modified vbulletin 2.0.3. It is no longer suitable for the volume and size of this BB, especially when it comes to search.

The current vBulletin software is 3.x - and its structure is quite significantly different to that we have right now (due to various changes in the programme + the hacks I made).

There is NO way of upgrading the existing software.

What I looked into is a way of doing a clean install of the new software, and then exporting/importing the data from the old tables into the new ones.

I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to do, given the volume we're talking about.

Therefore, this has nothing to do with the points you raised nor with hardware or backoffice environment.

[Mosquito]

Hmmm, ok, but then uurrhh.... I'm lost into what the options are as your last posts indicates there's simply only one option: remain the current BB in read-only mode as is, while I got the impression from your earlier post that you were still considering the conversion - import/export option.

[bira]

There are various - albeit remote - options I am still exploring. I just really don't want to lose the continuity. I think that would be extremely counter-productive for this BB.

[philhitchings]

bira I understand your concern but the continuity will be maintained by us the user. the good/popular will endure. take digi photo or photographer threads for example If you give us notice we''l sort out the links etc. Don't forget it is a community and that is what people do in a community; they support each other

[philhitchings]

I know we wont be able to hot link to the old (unless you let us) threads but hey we've read that stuff. Our rants are not the most amazing and inciteful (even though I think that mine are a bit better than the average hoy poloy hehehehe), we chat and we repat ourselves this is evolution let it happen for you, the admins, and the participants on the various bb's

[stylus]

Originally posted by philhitchings
bira I understand your concern but the continuity will be maintained by us the user. the good/popular will endure. take digi photo or photographer threads for example If you give us notice we''l sort out the links etc. Don't forget it is a community and that is what people do in a community; they support each other

But, arguably, if you dissociate the BB from the site by not having the latest threads shown there and you stop off all the pre-merger era threads too, what community and continuity are we talking about? What's the difference to any other BB at that point? Oh, the people, pfff.

The continuity of the board and the regulars is an important feel to the whole thing, imo, and I'm saying this badly and not talking about TNF at this point. There are some threads, I don't know what - corners at tracks, bernie's finances, photographs and so on, which evolve very slowly, and every so often they come back to the top to be added to. Well, alright, no mostly someone posts a new thread, but that's not the point. (I've heard the new search function is going to be brilliant...)

It would feel very separate from AtlasF1, as was, maybe, and not any closer to A/A, as is. As I started to put it, it wouldn't really belong to the site any more. Call that as daft as you like.

[philhitchings]

It's not daft at all. I felt a little like that before my son was born. nothing would be the same everything would be different. It was, but at the same time many things endured. a clean sweep would achieve the same kinda result imo

[Thunder]

Isnt it possible to make two separate search one including one year or older threads in a new table and the other in the usual table? Thay way edits also would be way faster.