45 replies to this topic

[Omegas]

Dear TNF-community,

another great racetrack passed away ... Tilke killed the historic Fuji circuit : The panorama is thrilling.



It is mentioned, that most of the redundant banking was demolished during reconstruction. The old Daiichi corner has been a banked one:




I've searched the web but I did not find any pictures about the old Daiichi-banking? Can some expert help me out? Thx in advance.

cu,
Omegas

[JB Miltonian]

I was able to find this picture of the Fuji banking in Car & Driver, September 1966.

[fines]

From the aerial photograph it appears that the banking was razed when the public road was built, so it appears it has nothing to do with the "tilke-anisation" of the circuit. In fact, from what I can see, the circuit doesn't look too bad - remember, it was defaced by three chicanes since the last Japan Grand Prix there, and at least the first one has disappeared. Alright, so the corner's probably a lot slower than before, but that was also the reason to build the chicane there - Fuji was never very good when it comes to safety!

Daiichi means first, so the name of the banking translates to Turn 1, simply.

[ghinzani]

You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.

[smithy]

Originally posted by ghinzani
You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.

Is the GT4 version the Tilke-ised version or before that? I have a feeling there is a completely new section that breaks up what was the last bend.

Try http://www.etracksonline.co.uk for a look. If it's not on the front page then look under News

[Darren Galpin]

There is a new section before the last bend - see also here http://www.silhouet....racks/fuji.html . Note that the outline of the banking is still there even on the new map.

[ghinzani]

Yeah thats the one. Its called Fuji 2005 so I am assuming they had a sneak preview. Its awful. The two other Fuji tracks (80s and 90s) are great tho. Especially jumpin the last chicane on the 90s one, saves you a great deal of time when your in an underpowered or tank of a car! Was the only way I could beat a Cobra on the world classics championship, I had some large american lump of lard which didnt like corners, so hey why not straightline 'em all ;)

[Bernd]

I ran into Herr Tilke at one of the Bathurst 24 Hour events and it took all of my self control to not rip the man a new arsehole. I restricted myself to something along the lines of "It's nice to see a real racing circuit eh, must be a first for you"

[TheStranger]

Originally posted by Bernd
I ran into Herr Tilke at one of the Bathurst 24 Hour events and it took all of my self control to not rip the man a new arsehole. I restricted myself to something along the lines of "It's nice to see a real racing circuit eh, must be a first for you"

He actually competes a bit in that BF Goodrich endurance series at the Ring, and was in this year's 24 Hours of the Nurburgring.

What a paradox...

[Omegas]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
I was able to find this picture of the Fuji banking in Car & Driver, September 1966.

Yeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaa, a very impressing picture! Wow, what a nice banking and it fits totally well to the circuit! I fell in love with this Fuji-track, GT4 features all three developments of the track and gives an impressing image of how the 70s has been! It was bloody fast, huuuuuuuuuuge and fast corners and a total challenge. Fuji is a track from those days of motorracing when chicanes where unknown. From the characteristics a circuit similar to Hockenheim or Buenos Aires (remember the bloody fast Curvon?) a monument of high-speed F1-racing.

I hate those bloody tilke-tarmac-deserts

[Omegas]

This technical drawing of the Non-Tilke-Fuji-Track shows the course public road and former banked section, note the place where the banked section returns on to the main track:


The road must have been reconstructed, there was a small tunnel beneath the banking, somehow it is not there any more. The place fka P9 was changed, the parking lot is not there any more.

This picture is from 2002 and shows -imho- the exit of the old banked section. This downhill section must be after exiting the current Turn1:



The steepest section of the track, which is very flat in general terms.

[josh.lintz]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
I was able to find this picture of the Fuji banking in Car & Driver, September 1966.

Thanks!

I was going to ask about the old banking, thanks to a brief mention of it in Grand Prix! and suddenly remembering it while racing Fuji in GT4.

[Ivan]

Originally posted by ghinzani
You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.

I have run off the road so many times in GT4 on his version of the track. There is NO rhythm to it anymore. You can't see any apexes!!! What is really bad is that there are all the versions of the track and if you have just raced the first or second and then go to his you get lost as to where you are going. They (the FIA) really need to stop using him.

[Arrows4Ever]

Originally posted by ghinzani
You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.

Agreed!!! It is boring!!!

Even some fantasy tracks are better than that...

[Ivan]

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever

Even some fantasy tracks are better than that...

I have always wondered why the FIA haven't gone to race game designers to ask them to create tracks. Their tracks are awesome!!

[Lutz G]

The other day I tried GT4 + Fuji 2005. Completing the first lap when I came through these 2nd gear corners I just thought "TILKE" (without reading this thread before) that must be another one on the Tilke destroy great tracks world tour. And Omegas told me that I was right...

BTW: GT4 is a great sort of virtual history lesson about modifying racetracks. Including old (Hunaudieres without chicanes!) and new Le Mans - and three versions of Fuji. The great F1-1976 track, 90s Fuji - with chicanes still fun to drive, and the crap Tilkedrom 2005. The last one is a very good example of doing everything wrong...

Originally posted by Bernd
I ran into Herr Tilke at one of the Bathurst 24 Hour events and it took all of my self control to not rip the man a new arsehole. I restricted myself to something along the lines of "It's nice to see a real racing circuit eh, must be a first for you"

Did he say anything to you?

Lutz

[fndc]

I feel new Fuji course is not bad.
There are same or more overtaking points than before.
2races(JGTC and F Nippon) that were held in this year were interesting both.

Above all,facility for specrtators makes better.
Old one is terribly bad!
I went there at first day of JGTC round 2,and was impressed so.

As you know old banking was abolished after 2 fatal accidents in 1973 and 74.
The monument of 30 degree bankig exsist.I went there,but it is too dangerous to race.

[Bernd]

Originally posted by Lutz G
Did he say anything to you?

Lutz

I think he may have missed my point because he just said it was very good.

[swede917]

It seems the banking is still there, as of the 2007 GP. Wonder how the banking would be in a current GP car, if it too was resurfaced. I know, I know too dangerous. It seems if there is any bump larger than .010" these days the drivers complain. (I'll get off my soapbox now)

http://www.chdphd.co...hp?GalleryID=41

[lil'chris]

Due to lack of photos I've always wondered whether the whole section was banked up until the point that the unused section of track turns back on itelf and becomes a left hand bend before rejoining the road track.

Not sure if it's still the case regarding ' circuit design' but it used to be that Max Mossolini & the FIA wouldn't allow decreasing radius curves. Wonder what they'd think of a decreasing radius curve banked at 30 degrees

[Rob Semmeling]

I've wondered about the same thing, but believe turns two and three (i.e. the righthand- and lefthand sweep that led back onto the proper road course) weren't banked.

Decreasing radius curves seemed to be no problem anymore: see turn one at Sepang and especially Shanghai.

[chdphd]

Thanks for linking to my web site

Here's a view of the banking from side on:



Link to full-sized version

The 1967 version of the circuit is available for Grand Prix Legends (http://page.freett.com/polarblue21b/).

I think the side on view gives a misleading impression of the curve at the start of the preserved area. This view makes it clearer:

[lil'chris]

Blimey,

In addition to my earlier comments it wasn't even level !!! Marvellous

[chdphd]

I found this video of a crash on the banking on YouTube: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=DnWL_BSgfd0

[TheStranger]

I've found more videos of the banking on Youtube, to get a sense of that downhill drop into the corner that is oft-described in contemporary accounts of the original track:

http://www.youtube.c...84C564A5F8121D0

[lil'chris]

Excellent. Thx

[TheStranger]

Also worth mentioning: for the rFactor racing simulation, someone has made an excellent recreation of the banked-turn layout:

http://www.rfactorce.....Speedway 1970

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by TheStranger
I've found more videos of the banking on Youtube, to get a sense of that downhill drop into the corner that is oft-described in contemporary accounts of the original track:

http://www.youtube.c...84C564A5F8121D0

The onboard is incredible, the first turn seems to go on and on and on and on.

[TheStranger]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor


The onboard is incredible, the first turn seems to go on and on and on and on.

Given that Fuji was originally slated to be Japan's answer to Daytona (Wikipedia notes that the track was built to try to gain a NASCAR event!), the length of the turn makes sense - the rather deep drop into the banking though is something I don't think would have worked well with a stock car race, had the oval been completed.

[chdphd]

Originally posted by TheStranger
Also worth mentioning: for the rFactor racing simulation, someone has made an excellent recreation of the banked-turn layout:

http://www.rfactorce.....Speedway 1970

Here's an onboard lap from that: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=AG-WPLTn50c

[Terry Walker]

The surviving section of the banking can be seen from above here:

[August]

I managed to find some old aerial pictures of Fuji Speedway:


Must be from before 1986, as there isn't yet the Dunlop chicane.

Same pic showing more of the area. Link #1. Link #2. Another hi-res pic.


The final layout before Tilke's reconstruction, has tighter 1st corner hairpin, chicane before 100R, chicane after Hairpin, and the Dunlop chicane.

Here's also higher resolution version of the last image from the area of the banked corner:



At that time you couldn't anymore drive from the main straight to the banking. And there was a dirt? circuit inside the banking.

For comparision current aerial pic:



And an overlay of the old circuit:

Edited by August, 18 October 2012 - 21:31.

[arttidesco]

First I have heard of any banked track at Fuji, now I have seen it feels like I have found a piece of a jigsaw puzzle I did not know was missing

I agree the Tilke version totally wrecked the GT4 experience

[Jesper O. Hansen]

First I have heard of any banked track at Fuji, now I have seen it feels like I have found a piece of a jigsaw puzzle I did not know was missing

OT, but interesting to speculate how the domestic Japanese racing scene would have evolved, had Fuji been completed as a banked US-style oval. Japan has adopted baseball among other American sports and the livery of their racing cars challenge anything to be seen in the US.

Jesper

[Duc-Man]

Gents it could be worse.
Look at Hockenheim.
Or even worse than that: Silverstone. I still remember the '75-'86 layout.

[BoschKurve]

Gents it could be worse.
Look at Hockenheim.
Or even worse than that: Silverstone. I still remember the '75-'86 layout.

Couldn't agree more Duc.

The old Hockenheimring with no chicane before the Ostkurve was stunning. There was always something magical about the cars disappearing off into the forest. Even today when F1 races there, I keep hoping somehow the entire field will just say, "The hell with this" and drive right through the barriers into the forest.

Silverstone is an interesting one. It gets a ton of hype by so many, but I feel the current incarnation is just dull. I suppose part of it is that I miss a lot of the fast circuits that have been either changed, or wiped off the calendar. The 1975 to 1985 version was incredible. I did like the previous version without the Woodcote Chicane, but I do understand why they added the chicane in...it was absolutely necessary. What happened to Silverstone is exactly why I hope F1 never goes back to Brands Hatch again.

[arttidesco]

What happened to Silverstone is exactly why I hope F1 never goes back to Brands Hatch again.

Yes it is a shame Brands is off the F1 menu, but as you suggest it would only get wrecked if it were ever to be back in F1 contention.

Now if only they could build cars that could be safe on these long departed tracks

[LittleChris]

Now if only they could build cars that could be safe on these long departed tracks ;)

Or better still only give drives to people who accept that it should be a risky sport and that if they are to be paid millions, they have to take on some of the risk rather than be wrapped in cotton wool lest they hurt themselves when they eventually tap a saferbarrier 60 yards from the apex of the 2nd hairpin at Sepang when they must be doing all of, lets see, 50 mph ?.

[BoschKurve]

Yes it is a shame Brands is off the F1 menu, but as you suggest it would only get wrecked if it were ever to be back in F1 contention.

Now if only they could build cars that could be safe on these long departed tracks ;)

Not that it will ever happen, but I would love to see Imola rebuild the Tamburello Corner. I would leave the chicane in place for other race series like sportbikes, but they could do something about the wall...push it farther back.

It lost so much of the character it had once they did away with the Tamburello and Variante Bassa sections.

But I fear I am straying too far off-topic.

Just on-topic, what Tilke did to Fuji was heartbreaking. That's really the common factor in all of Tilke's tracks; they have little to no logical flow in them. Certain sections of some of his tracks are fine, but many of them are just too technical, and dull to watch.

[Les]

Heres an onboard of the old track and yes its a travesty what Tilke done to it. Maybe its best that old tracks are kept as they are and when F1 needs a new track a new one is built:

[r.atlos]

If it was such a wonderful circuit: Why did the CanAm teams in 1968 stipulate that the race had to be run in the opposite direction ?

Edited by r.atlos, 21 October 2012 - 16:08.

[August]

Gents it could be worse.
Look at Hockenheim.
Or even worse than that: Silverstone. I still remember the '75-'86 layout.

Current Silverstone isn't too bad, I think. In my opinion the new Becketts and pre-2010 Bride-to-Luffield section was better than '75-'86 layout. But Abbey and Vale chicanes were worse in it than in the '75-'86 layout. My ideal would be this.



New Hockenheim is a travesty of the old, but considering how difficult it would've been to save the old circuits' nature in such a small area as current circuit, the new circuit is decent. Still, something like the edit on this page would've had more of the nature of old Hockenheim.

But Fuji is the worst travesty of a classic circuit. The old final corner was so epic, and I think Tilke could've retained it. All he should've done would've been to take that corner inside a bit, thus creating a runoff. Now we have stupid Mickey Mouse corners.

[PS30-SB]

If it was such a wonderful circuit: Why did the CanAm team in 1968 stipulate that the race had to be run in the opposite direction ?

So that they could avoid using the banking?

I hardly think that anything the "CanAm team" are said to have 'stipulated' when they visited in 1968 would define Fuji Speedway as 'good', 'bad' or "wonderful". Plenty of races had taken place before they turned up, and plenty took place afterwards.

Races were held both clockwise and anticlockwise, and I find it hard to believe that the shortcut used in the 'Fuji 200 World Challenge Cup' meeting of November 1968 was built solely to accommodate the CanAm circus....

[joshb]

It's such a shame they made such a $hit job of the track for, effectively, 2 F1 races. It would have been better to keep it in the state it was in before 2005 and tidied up around the edges.

[BoschKurve]

New Hockenheim is a travesty of the old, but considering how difficult it would've been to save the old circuits' nature in such a small area as current circuit, the new circuit is decent. Still, something like the edit on this page would've had more of the nature of old Hockenheim.

The Hockenheim revision was a joke. The supposed increase in attendance never materialized, and we were left with a fraud of a track that lost the entire essence of what the Hockenheimring was about.

I do recall there were some rumors about rebuilding the old layout for LMP use since there are so few circuits adequate high speeds any longer...not sure if anything will ever come out of that.

But well, one thing is for certain, being in bed with Ecclestone pays Tilke well. I doubt he loses any sleep over any of this stuff.

[joshb]

The Hockenheim revision was a joke. The supposed increase in attendance never materialized, and we were left with a fraud of a track that lost the entire essence of what the Hockenheimring was about.

I do recall there were some rumors about rebuilding the old layout for LMP use since there are so few circuits adequate high speeds any longer...not sure if anything will ever come out of that.

But well, one thing is for certain, being in bed with Ecclestone pays Tilke well. I doubt he loses any sleep over any of this stuff.

A couple of years back Audi went to Monza for a test and straight-lined the first chicane (used Parabolica to Della Roggia flat out) to try and replicate the Mulsanne as close as possible. As for Hockenheim- the environmentalists have planted trees in the path of the old circuit up to the Ostkurve- it'll never be turned back into a track.