Jump to content


Photo

Reconstruction Fuji Racetrack


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#1 Omegas

Omegas
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 21 June 2005 - 22:41

Dear TNF-community,

another great racetrack passed away ... Tilke killed the historic Fuji circuit : The panorama is thrilling.

Posted Image

It is mentioned, that most of the redundant banking was demolished during reconstruction. The old Daiichi corner has been a banked one:

Posted Image


I've searched the web but I did not find any pictures about the old Daiichi-banking? Can some expert help me out? Thx in advance.

cu,
Omegas

Advertisement

#2 JB Miltonian

JB Miltonian
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 22 June 2005 - 01:16

I was able to find this picture of the Fuji banking in Car & Driver, September 1966.

Posted Image

#3 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 22 June 2005 - 09:44

From the aerial photograph it appears that the banking was razed when the public road was built, so it appears it has nothing to do with the "tilke-anisation" of the circuit. In fact, from what I can see, the circuit doesn't look too bad - remember, it was defaced by three chicanes since the last Japan Grand Prix there, and at least the first one has disappeared. Alright, so the corner's probably a lot slower than before, but that was also the reason to build the chicane there - Fuji was never very good when it comes to safety!

Daiichi means first, so the name of the banking translates to Turn 1, simply.

#4 ghinzani

ghinzani
  • Member

  • 2,002 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 22 June 2005 - 13:09

You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.

#5 smithy

smithy
  • Member

  • 2,459 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 23 June 2005 - 08:23

Originally posted by ghinzani
You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.

Is the GT4 version the Tilke-ised version or before that? I have a feeling there is a completely new section that breaks up what was the last bend.

Try http://www.etracksonline.co.uk for a look. If it's not on the front page then look under News

#6 Darren Galpin

Darren Galpin
  • Member

  • 2,235 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 23 June 2005 - 08:45

There is a new section before the last bend - see also here http://www.silhouet....racks/fuji.html . Note that the outline of the banking is still there even on the new map.

#7 ghinzani

ghinzani
  • Member

  • 2,002 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 23 June 2005 - 13:08

Yeah thats the one. Its called Fuji 2005 so I am assuming they had a sneak preview. Its awful. The two other Fuji tracks (80s and 90s) are great tho. Especially jumpin the last chicane on the 90s one, saves you a great deal of time when your in an underpowered or tank of a car! Was the only way I could beat a Cobra on the world classics championship, I had some large american lump of lard which didnt like corners, so hey why not straightline 'em all ;)

#8 Bernd

Bernd
  • Member

  • 3,307 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 23 June 2005 - 23:16

I ran into Herr Tilke at one of the Bathurst 24 Hour events and it took all of my self control to not rip the man a new arsehole. I restricted myself to something along the lines of "It's nice to see a real racing circuit eh, must be a first for you"

#9 TheStranger

TheStranger
  • Member

  • 185 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 24 June 2005 - 10:48

Originally posted by Bernd
I ran into Herr Tilke at one of the Bathurst 24 Hour events and it took all of my self control to not rip the man a new arsehole. I restricted myself to something along the lines of "It's nice to see a real racing circuit eh, must be a first for you"


He actually competes a bit in that BF Goodrich endurance series at the Ring, and was in this year's 24 Hours of the Nurburgring.

What a paradox...

#10 Omegas

Omegas
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 24 June 2005 - 21:45

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
I was able to find this picture of the Fuji banking in Car & Driver, September 1966.

Posted Image


Yeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaa, a very impressing picture! Wow, what a nice banking and it fits totally well to the circuit! I fell in love with this Fuji-track, GT4 features all three developments of the track and gives an impressing image of how the 70s has been! It was bloody fast, huuuuuuuuuuge and fast corners and a total challenge. Fuji is a track from those days of motorracing when chicanes where unknown. From the characteristics a circuit similar to Hockenheim or Buenos Aires (remember the bloody fast Curvon?) a monument of high-speed F1-racing.

I hate those bloody tilke-tarmac-deserts :down:

#11 Omegas

Omegas
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 25 June 2005 - 00:24

This technical drawing of the Non-Tilke-Fuji-Track shows the course public road and former banked section, note the place where the banked section returns on to the main track:
Posted Image

The road must have been reconstructed, there was a small tunnel beneath the banking, somehow it is not there any more. The place fka P9 was changed, the parking lot is not there any more.

This picture is from 2002 and shows -imho- the exit of the old banked section. This downhill section must be after exiting the current Turn1:

Posted Image

The steepest section of the track, which is very flat in general terms.

#12 josh.lintz

josh.lintz
  • Member

  • 149 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 25 June 2005 - 11:55

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
I was able to find this picture of the Fuji banking in Car & Driver, September 1966.

Posted Image


Thanks!

I was going to ask about the old banking, thanks to a brief mention of it in Grand Prix! and suddenly remembering it while racing Fuji in GT4.

#13 Ivan

Ivan
  • Member

  • 6,646 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 25 June 2005 - 15:35

Originally posted by ghinzani
You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.

I have run off the road so many times in GT4 on his version of the track. There is NO rhythm to it anymore. You can't see any apexes!!! What is really bad is that there are all the versions of the track and if you have just raced the first or second and then go to his you get lost as to where you are going. They (the FIA) really need to stop using him.

#14 Arrows4Ever

Arrows4Ever
  • Member

  • 831 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 25 June 2005 - 16:02

Originally posted by ghinzani
You've not driven the new track on GT4 then? Its horrific!! So many corners tighten up on exit, its sad, boring and a complete travesty IMHO.


Agreed!!! It is boring!!! :down: :down: :down:

Even some fantasy tracks are better than that...

#15 Ivan

Ivan
  • Member

  • 6,646 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 25 June 2005 - 16:12

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever

Even some fantasy tracks are better than that...

I have always wondered why the FIA haven't gone to race game designers to ask them to create tracks. Their tracks are awesome!!

#16 Lutz G

Lutz G
  • Member

  • 369 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 26 June 2005 - 10:13

The other day I tried GT4 + Fuji 2005. Completing the first lap when I came through these 2nd gear corners I just thought "TILKE" (without reading this thread before) that must be another one on the Tilke destroy great tracks world tour. And Omegas told me that I was right...

BTW: GT4 is a great sort of virtual history lesson about modifying racetracks. Including old (Hunaudieres without chicanes!) and new Le Mans - and three versions of Fuji. The great F1-1976 track, 90s Fuji - with chicanes still fun to drive, and the crap Tilkedrom 2005. The last one is a very good example of doing everything wrong...


Originally posted by Bernd
I ran into Herr Tilke at one of the Bathurst 24 Hour events and it took all of my self control to not rip the man a new arsehole. I restricted myself to something along the lines of "It's nice to see a real racing circuit eh, must be a first for you"


Did he say anything to you?

Lutz

#17 fndc

fndc
  • New Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 26 June 2005 - 12:22

I feel new Fuji course is not bad. :D
There are same or more overtaking points than before.
2races(JGTC and F Nippon) that were held in this year were interesting both.

Above all,facility for specrtators makes better.
Old one is terribly bad!
I went there at first day of JGTC round 2,and was impressed so.

As you know old banking was abolished after 2 fatal accidents in 1973 and 74.
The monument of 30 degree bankig exsist.I went there,but it is too dangerous to race.

#18 Bernd

Bernd
  • Member

  • 3,307 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 26 June 2005 - 22:54

Originally posted by Lutz G
Did he say anything to you?

Lutz


I think he may have missed my point because he just said it was very good.

#19 swede917

swede917
  • Member

  • 75 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 02 November 2007 - 20:54

It seems the banking is still there, as of the 2007 GP. Wonder how the banking would be in a current GP car, if it too was resurfaced. I know, I know too dangerous. It seems if there is any bump larger than .010" these days the drivers complain. (I'll get off my soapbox now)

http://www.chdphd.co...hp?GalleryID=41

Advertisement

#20 lil'chris

lil'chris
  • Member

  • 512 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 02 November 2007 - 23:54

Due to lack of photos I've always wondered whether the whole section was banked up until the point that the unused section of track turns back on itelf and becomes a left hand bend before rejoining the road track.

Not sure if it's still the case regarding ' circuit design' but it used to be that Max Mossolini & the FIA wouldn't allow decreasing radius curves. Wonder what they'd think of a decreasing radius curve banked at 30 degrees :D

#21 Rob Semmeling

Rob Semmeling
  • Member

  • 882 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 03 November 2007 - 15:16

I've wondered about the same thing, but believe turns two and three (i.e. the righthand- and lefthand sweep that led back onto the proper road course) weren't banked.

Decreasing radius curves seemed to be no problem anymore: see turn one at Sepang and especially Shanghai.

#22 chdphd

chdphd
  • Member

  • 1,619 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 03 November 2007 - 17:29

Thanks for linking to my web site :up:

Here's a view of the banking from side on:

Posted Image

Link to full-sized version

The 1967 version of the circuit is available for Grand Prix Legends (http://page.freett.com/polarblue21b/).

I think the side on view gives a misleading impression of the curve at the start of the preserved area. This view makes it clearer:

Posted Image

#23 lil'chris

lil'chris
  • Member

  • 512 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:39

Blimey,

In addition to my earlier comments it wasn't even level !!! Marvellous

#24 chdphd

chdphd
  • Member

  • 1,619 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 18 December 2007 - 00:32

I found this video of a crash on the banking on YouTube: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=DnWL_BSgfd0

#25 TheStranger

TheStranger
  • Member

  • 185 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 25 November 2008 - 20:25

I've found more videos of the banking on Youtube, to get a sense of that downhill drop into the corner that is oft-described in contemporary accounts of the original track:

http://www.youtube.c...84C564A5F8121D0

#26 lil'chris

lil'chris
  • Member

  • 512 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 25 November 2008 - 21:47

Excellent. Thx

#27 TheStranger

TheStranger
  • Member

  • 185 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 25 November 2008 - 22:48

Also worth mentioning: for the rFactor racing simulation, someone has made an excellent recreation of the banked-turn layout:

http://www.rfactorce.....Speedway 1970

#28 Paul Taylor

Paul Taylor
  • Member

  • 1,246 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 25 November 2008 - 22:52

Originally posted by TheStranger
I've found more videos of the banking on Youtube, to get a sense of that downhill drop into the corner that is oft-described in contemporary accounts of the original track:

http://www.youtube.c...84C564A5F8121D0


The onboard is incredible, the first turn seems to go on and on and on and on.

#29 TheStranger

TheStranger
  • Member

  • 185 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 25 November 2008 - 23:05

Originally posted by Paul Taylor


The onboard is incredible, the first turn seems to go on and on and on and on.


Given that Fuji was originally slated to be Japan's answer to Daytona (Wikipedia notes that the track was built to try to gain a NASCAR event!), the length of the turn makes sense - the rather deep drop into the banking though is something I don't think would have worked well with a stock car race, had the oval been completed.

#30 chdphd

chdphd
  • Member

  • 1,619 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 26 November 2008 - 20:29

Originally posted by TheStranger
Also worth mentioning: for the rFactor racing simulation, someone has made an excellent recreation of the banked-turn layout:

http://www.rfactorce.....Speedway 1970


Here's an onboard lap from that: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=AG-WPLTn50c

#31 Terry Walker

Terry Walker
  • Member

  • 2,956 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:14

The surviving section of the banking can be seen from above here:

Posted Image

#32 August

August
  • Member

  • 3,232 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 18 October 2012 - 19:22

I managed to find some old aerial pictures of Fuji Speedway:

Posted Image
Must be from before 1986, as there isn't yet the Dunlop chicane.

Same pic showing more of the area. Link #1. Link #2. Another hi-res pic.

Posted Image
The final layout before Tilke's reconstruction, has tighter 1st corner hairpin, chicane before 100R, chicane after Hairpin, and the Dunlop chicane.

Here's also higher resolution version of the last image from the area of the banked corner:

Posted Image

At that time you couldn't anymore drive from the main straight to the banking. And there was a dirt? circuit inside the banking.

For comparision current aerial pic:

Posted Image

And an overlay of the old circuit:

Posted Image

Edited by August, 18 October 2012 - 21:31.


#33 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,310 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 18 October 2012 - 22:40

First I have heard of any banked track at Fuji, now I have seen it feels like I have found a piece of a jigsaw puzzle I did not know was missing :up:

I agree the Tilke version totally wrecked the GT4 experience :drunk:

#34 Jesper O. Hansen

Jesper O. Hansen
  • Member

  • 582 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 19 October 2012 - 14:38

First I have heard of any banked track at Fuji, now I have seen it feels like I have found a piece of a jigsaw puzzle I did not know was missing :up:


OT, but interesting to speculate how the domestic Japanese racing scene would have evolved, had Fuji been completed as a banked US-style oval. Japan has adopted baseball among other American sports and the livery of their racing cars challenge anything to be seen in the US.

Jesper


#35 Duc-Man

Duc-Man
  • Member

  • 1,310 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 19 October 2012 - 16:07

Gents it could be worse.
Look at Hockenheim. :cry:
Or even worse than that: Silverstone. I still remember the '75-'86 layout.

#36 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,525 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 19 October 2012 - 19:28

Gents it could be worse.
Look at Hockenheim. :cry:
Or even worse than that: Silverstone. I still remember the '75-'86 layout.


Couldn't agree more Duc.

The old Hockenheimring with no chicane before the Ostkurve was stunning. There was always something magical about the cars disappearing off into the forest. Even today when F1 races there, I keep hoping somehow the entire field will just say, "The hell with this" and drive right through the barriers into the forest. :lol:

Silverstone is an interesting one. It gets a ton of hype by so many, but I feel the current incarnation is just dull. I suppose part of it is that I miss a lot of the fast circuits that have been either changed, or wiped off the calendar. The 1975 to 1985 version was incredible. I did like the previous version without the Woodcote Chicane, but I do understand why they added the chicane in...it was absolutely necessary. What happened to Silverstone is exactly why I hope F1 never goes back to Brands Hatch again.

#37 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,310 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 19 October 2012 - 20:43

What happened to Silverstone is exactly why I hope F1 never goes back to Brands Hatch again.


Yes it is a shame Brands is off the F1 menu, but as you suggest it would only get wrecked if it were ever to be back in F1 contention.

Now if only they could build cars that could be safe on these long departed tracks  ;)

#38 LittleChris

LittleChris
  • Member

  • 2,491 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 October 2012 - 21:16

Now if only they could build cars that could be safe on these long departed tracks ;)


Or better still only give drives to people who accept that it should be a risky sport and that if they are to be paid millions, they have to take on some of the risk rather than be wrapped in cotton wool lest they hurt themselves when they eventually tap a saferbarrier 60 yards from the apex of the 2nd hairpin at Sepang when they must be doing all of, lets see, 50 mph ?.

#39 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,525 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 20 October 2012 - 15:14

Yes it is a shame Brands is off the F1 menu, but as you suggest it would only get wrecked if it were ever to be back in F1 contention.

Now if only they could build cars that could be safe on these long departed tracks ;)


Not that it will ever happen, but I would love to see Imola rebuild the Tamburello Corner. I would leave the chicane in place for other race series like sportbikes, but they could do something about the wall...push it farther back.

It lost so much of the character it had once they did away with the Tamburello and Variante Bassa sections.

But I fear I am straying too far off-topic. :)

Just on-topic, what Tilke did to Fuji was heartbreaking. That's really the common factor in all of Tilke's tracks; they have little to no logical flow in them. Certain sections of some of his tracks are fine, but many of them are just too technical, and dull to watch.

Advertisement

#40 Les

Les
  • Member

  • 2,111 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 20 October 2012 - 17:30

Heres an onboard of the old track and yes its a travesty what Tilke done to it. Maybe its best that old tracks are kept as they are and when F1 needs a new track a new one is built:



#41 r.atlos

r.atlos
  • Member

  • 416 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 20 October 2012 - 21:24

If it was such a wonderful circuit: Why did the CanAm teams in 1968 stipulate that the race had to be run in the opposite direction ?

Edited by r.atlos, 21 October 2012 - 16:08.


#42 August

August
  • Member

  • 3,232 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:05

Gents it could be worse.
Look at Hockenheim. :cry:
Or even worse than that: Silverstone. I still remember the '75-'86 layout.


Current Silverstone isn't too bad, I think. In my opinion the new Becketts and pre-2010 Bride-to-Luffield section was better than '75-'86 layout. But Abbey and Vale chicanes were worse in it than in the '75-'86 layout. My ideal would be this.

Posted Image

New Hockenheim is a travesty of the old, but considering how difficult it would've been to save the old circuits' nature in such a small area as current circuit, the new circuit is decent. Still, something like the edit on this page would've had more of the nature of old Hockenheim.

But Fuji is the worst travesty of a classic circuit. The old final corner was so epic, and I think Tilke could've retained it. All he should've done would've been to take that corner inside a bit, thus creating a runoff. Now we have stupid Mickey Mouse corners.

#43 PS30-SB

PS30-SB
  • Member

  • 219 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 21 October 2012 - 13:21

If it was such a wonderful circuit: Why did the CanAm team in 1968 stipulate that the race had to be run in the opposite direction ?


So that they could avoid using the banking?

I hardly think that anything the "CanAm team" are said to have 'stipulated' when they visited in 1968 would define Fuji Speedway as 'good', 'bad' or "wonderful". Plenty of races had taken place before they turned up, and plenty took place afterwards.

Races were held both clockwise and anticlockwise, and I find it hard to believe that the shortcut used in the 'Fuji 200 World Challenge Cup' meeting of November 1968 was built solely to accommodate the CanAm circus....

#44 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,375 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 21 October 2012 - 14:30

It's such a shame they made such a $hit job of the track for, effectively, 2 F1 races. It would have been better to keep it in the state it was in before 2005 and tidied up around the edges.

#45 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,525 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 21 October 2012 - 18:27

New Hockenheim is a travesty of the old, but considering how difficult it would've been to save the old circuits' nature in such a small area as current circuit, the new circuit is decent. Still, something like the edit on this page would've had more of the nature of old Hockenheim.


The Hockenheim revision was a joke. The supposed increase in attendance never materialized, and we were left with a fraud of a track that lost the entire essence of what the Hockenheimring was about.

I do recall there were some rumors about rebuilding the old layout for LMP use since there are so few circuits adequate high speeds any longer...not sure if anything will ever come out of that.

But well, one thing is for certain, being in bed with Ecclestone pays Tilke well. I doubt he loses any sleep over any of this stuff.

#46 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,375 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:05

The Hockenheim revision was a joke. The supposed increase in attendance never materialized, and we were left with a fraud of a track that lost the entire essence of what the Hockenheimring was about.

I do recall there were some rumors about rebuilding the old layout for LMP use since there are so few circuits adequate high speeds any longer...not sure if anything will ever come out of that.

But well, one thing is for certain, being in bed with Ecclestone pays Tilke well. I doubt he loses any sleep over any of this stuff.


A couple of years back Audi went to Monza for a test and straight-lined the first chicane (used Parabolica to Della Roggia flat out) to try and replicate the Mulsanne as close as possible. As for Hockenheim- the environmentalists have planted trees in the path of the old circuit up to the Ostkurve- it'll never be turned back into a track.