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1939 European Championship


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#651 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 15:18

Somehow I can't post a link to another post on this board!!! :confused:



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#652 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 15:19



#653 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 15:20

Is that banother 'punitive' measure here against me? :rolleyes:

 

Come on, grow up



#654 ensign14

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 17:24

** I don't think that, say, Murray Walker had any "authority" to declare, for example, Damon Hill as World Champion, yet nobody appears to have a problem with that


Although people do have a problem if I declare Lewis Hamilton the 2021 World Champion, even though I am infinitely more qualified than the FIA to make that declaration.
 
The more interesting point is the whys and wherefores of how Lang became known outside Germany as the Eurochamp.  I doubt Korpsführer Huhnlein would be a good source for anyone.  Probably needs a comparison of how much the "championship" mattered more widely in the late 1930s - the emphasis on it in more recent history books MAY be rolling championship mentality back in time; after all, if people were that bothered about the title qua title, why send the best drivers to Vanderbilt rather than pick up easy points? - but at least in 1953 an Irish newspaper was calling Lang the 1939 European champion (page 5 of Ireland's Saturday Night on 26 December 1953 if you want to check).

 

Could it just be as simple as someone looking through the 1939 results and assuming Lang must have been champ because he won the most races?  Or counting the Eifelrennen as well as the German GP?



#655 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 18:06

Gunther Molter, mainly. His 1950 book 'German Racing Cars and Drivers' names Lang as 1939 European Champion - thus repeating claims previously made only in Germany and its occupied territories for the first time in English. He also translated and revised Lang's wartime autobiography - which he had originally ghosted - into English, but in that the text is changed to note that Lang 'had to wait' for confirmation of the title, while not explaining that such confirmation never came. I believe that alteration was also in the revised German text.

 

Norman Smith's 1958 book 'Case History' says - correctly - that the title was never determined. But as Chula noted in his biography of Seaman the scoring system was 'barely understood' even at the time! It was nearly thirty years after Smith that Chris Nixon took an interest, having apparently unearthed a copy of the scoring system in MB's archives. But even he didn't take a proper look at 1939, having accepted Lang's claim to be champion as true.

 

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility - and I stress that this is speculation - that Hühnlein wanted to punish Auto Union for refusing to race in Pau, as Nuvolari would have been subject to the then recently imposed Italian boycott of French sporting events. A compromise was presumably later reached between Hühnlein and Furmanik, as Tazio was in the field at Reims later in the year.



#656 ReWind

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 19:50

Come on, grow up

Who behaves like a grown-up has a good chance that he will be treated accordingly.

 

 

More than twenty years ago a rookie wrote this:

 

The championship can only be decided on the rules of the A.I.A.C.R. Since there was no announcement by the A.I.A.C.R. we need a valid points system to find out who was the rightful champion.

In this respect … we know that there was a proposal of a new points system but obviously no settlement by the A.I.A.C.R. (the only authority that matters).

So, I think, we have to ask: Was the points system that was used up to and in 1938 still in force in 1939 or was it not?

There are two possibilities:
1) The old system was valid until further notice: Then the minimum-point-system was valid in 1939 unless it was cancelled during 1939 of which there is no proof.
2) The old system had a limited period of validity and had expired at the end of 1938: Then a new system for 1939 had to be installed.
a) If a system was installed before the start of the championship and it was identical to the former system then the minimum-point-system was valid in 1939 because it never was replaced by the proposed new system.
b) If no system was installed before the start of the championship because at the A.I.A.C.R. it was expected to decide upon it later then there was no valid system in 1939 because this decision was never made.

In case of 1) or 2)a) the European Champion is Müller. The fact that the A.I.A.C.R. never made an official announcement on the title wouldn't be detrimental because if we know the rules and the results we don't need someone to tell us the outcome of a contest.

In case of 2)b) the Championship remains undecided and there is no Champion.

 

I think that statement still stands.

 



#657 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 20:10

Oh, and on the subject of the 1937 Vanderbilt trip, the original plan was that the MB and AU drivers - and probably Nuvolari and Farina as well - would return on the Hindenburg, which would have given them enough time to make it to Spa ... some time on the Thursday, probably.



#658 Tim Murray

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 22:39

Is that banother 'punitive' measure here against me? :rolleyes:


No. Whatever your problem is, it has nothing to do with the moderating team.

#659 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 February 2024 - 23:29

Not you and RIchard, I know. But whoever is running this site is trying to bust my balls...  :mad:



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#660 jbbugatti

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Posted 15 February 2024 - 07:03

Not you and RIchard, I know. But whoever is running this site is trying to bust my balls...  :mad:

This has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

Please take your moans elsewhere….

 

THANK YOU


Edited by jbbugatti, 15 February 2024 - 11:16.


#661 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 February 2024 - 09:21

Oh, and on the subject of the 1937 Vanderbilt trip, the original plan was that the MB and AU drivers - and probably Nuvolari and Farina as well - would return on the Hindenburg, which would have given them enough time to make it to Spa ... some time on the Thursday, probably.


In an age where a crossing of the Atlantic in mere hours is routine, it seems odd that a three day crossing by zeppelin was considered fast enough to make the following race.

Also interesting that there weren’t enough flights at the time to make up for the loss of the Hindenburg.

#662 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 February 2024 - 11:15

In an age where a crossing of the Atlantic in mere hours is routine, it seems odd that a three day crossing by zeppelin was considered fast enough to make the following race.

Also interesting that there weren’t enough flights at the time to make up for the loss of the Hindenburg.

Graf Zeppelin II, which would have doubled capacity on the route, wasn't yet completed at that point and its construction was further delayed because the Americans refused to sell helium to Germany, necessitating a redesign for it to use hydrogen. First commercial airline services - Pan Am Boeing 316 flying boats, New York to Calshot via Gander in Newfoundland to refuel - commenced summer 1939, although earlier proving flights had carried mail. Switched to Foynes in Ireland, September 1939, plus an additional service from New York to the Azores.

 

ETA: The scheduled West-East crossing from Lakehurst to Frankfurt was approximately 60 hours - as opposed to about five days by liner from New York to Hamburg on the Bremen. Hindenburg's fastest crossing - mooring mast to mooring mast - was just 43 hours and 2 minutes!



#663 DCapps

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Posted 16 February 2024 - 00:57

And, the verdict is...?



#664 RAP

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Posted 17 February 2024 - 19:08

And, the verdict is...?

No one.

 

As the championship belonged (for want of a better word) to the A.I.A.C.R. then ONLY they could declare a champion, and they did not do so.


Edited by RAP, 17 February 2024 - 19:08.


#665 DCapps

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 14:20

We have chased this rabbit for the better part of a quarter century, through many a briar patch and down too many rabbits holes to even want to contemplate  much less count.

 

As they often do, Facts have led us in any number of directions as well as dots both connecting and then, well, stopping in midair...

 

Richard's suggestion that CSI failed, for whatever the various possible reasons one might conjure up (there seems to be more than a few...), to declare a champion of the European championship series for 1939 seems to be a reasonable one.

Under the assumption (a very reasonable one given the level of rabbit-chasing over several decades) that there is not lurking somewhere within the bowels of the FIA or some other archive any documentation that contradicts Richard's assertion, his verdict is one that the Facts lead us to.

If nothing else, this exercise in the challenges of historical research demonstrates the messiness, nuances, contradictions, the importance of archival materials, the value of collaboration, and how everyone NOT thinking alike might lead to a reasonable interpretation of all that effort.

Fascinating once you take a few steps back and really think about what this group did over the course of several decades. 

While there will always bits and pieces of this endeavor to tidy up, rest assured that someone down the road will think about this interpretation and how it was arrived at, and then take another look at it...



#666 Michael Ferner

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 14:37

We have chased this rabbit for the better part of a quarter century, through many a briar patch and down too many rabbits holes to even want to contemplate  much less count.

 

As they often do, Facts have led us in any number of directions as well as dots both connecting and then, well, stopping in midair...

 

Richard's suggestion that CSI failed, for whatever the various possible reasons one might conjure up (there seems to be more than a few...), to declare a champion of the European championship series for 1939 seems to be a reasonable one.

Under the assumption (a very reasonable one given the level of rabbit-chasing over several decades) that there is not lurking somewhere within the bowels of the FIA or some other archive any documentation that contradicts Richard's assertion, his verdict is one that the Facts lead us to.

If nothing else, this exercise in the challenges of historical research demonstrates the messiness, nuances, contradictions, the importance of archival materials, the value of collaboration, and how everyone NOT thinking alike might lead to a reasonable interpretation of all that effort.

Fascinating once you take a few steps back and really think about what this group did over the course of several decades. 

While there will always bits and pieces of this endeavor to tidy up, rest assured that someone down the road will think about this interpretation and how it was arrived at, and then take another look at it...

 

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#667 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 15:52

There are actually two parallels to this in the two-wheeled world.

 

As has been noted here, Hühnlein's November declaration also named the three European Motorcycling Champions for 1939 - these titles were of course under the aegis of the FICM and have subsequently been confirmed by its successor the FIM. It probably helped that two of the riders were Italian and that Johnny Lurani was one of the leading lights in the post-war revival of motorcycle racing. Hühnlein also subsequently declared Hans Stuck to be European Motor Boating Champion for 1939 - although on what basis is unclear!

 

Perhaps less well-known is that the result of the 1939 International Six Day Trial, held in the 'new German Land' of Ostmark (Austria), which Hühnlein declared and the German press reported as having been won by Germany, was subsequently annulled by the FIM. The ISDT was held in the last complete week of August 1939 (21st to 26th) and there was a strong British contingent of both private and military riders, the British Army team having been specially formed and been in intensive training since January, when they had taken part in the gruelling Exeter Trial. In 1938 Hühnlein had donated a trophy, named (naturally!) after himself, to be competed for by military and other organisations' teams - several British regiments and even a team of RAC patrolmen had entered, but all the prizes had been shared between three German teams; two from the NSKK and one from the SS. 'Schorsch' Meier was one of the riders for NSKK A.

 

As the diplomatic situation deteriorated during the week, it became clear that the event was unlikely to be safely completed and most of the British competitors and spectators left in convoy on the Friday morning, heading for Switzerland. The army team and the few remaining British private riders were given a safe escort out of Germany on Friday evening. There were also teams from Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Bohemia & Moravia and Italy - I'm not sure whether any of them abandoned it as well. The Germans did apparently continue the event to the end, but reports say that before they decamped most of the leading positions were occupied by British riders.



#668 Michael Ferner

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 21:29



There are actually two parallels to this in the two-wheeled world.

 

As has been noted here, Hühnlein's November declaration also named the three European Motorcycling Champions for 1939 - these titles were of course under the aegis of the FICM and have subsequently been confirmed by its successor the FIM. It probably helped that two of the riders were Italian...

 

... except that they weren't    ;)  Only 500cc Champion Serafini was, while Heiner Fleischmann (350cc) and Ewald Kluge (250cc) were Germans, of course.

 

But, since you mention the FICM, it should be pointed out that there was an anomaly, which very probably sparked the whole 'Hühnlein declaration' in the first place! In November, Englishman Thomas Wynn Loughborough, long-time Secretary General of the FICM, declared his compatriot Ted Mellors as the 350cc Champion, presumably with the idea of some sort of 'payback' for the Poland invasion! This was, according to newspaper reports, officially corrected in February of 1940!! (see e.g. Wiener Tagblatt, Feb 8, 1940, p8)



#669 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 February 2024 - 23:20

That'll teach me to read my notes rather than relying on memory! :blush:

 

I was partly aware of the Mellors claim - not to mention the various combinations of one (or two) possible changes in the scoring system - but hadn't seen any suggestion that Ted was actually a sole champion, only a possible tie with Fleischmann, which would likely have been resolved in Fleischmann's favour on the grounds of his two race wins to Mellors' one.



#670 Michael Ferner

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Posted 20 February 2024 - 08:28

Actually, the tie breaker would have been the Belgian GP, that year's designated European GP - which Mellors won! But a tie was not really on the cards, although it appears that at least one British magazine tried to travel down that avenue in an attempt to save face for Loughborough, arguing that with the cancellation of two of the nine rounds in the championships, the number of scores to count should drop from six to four, which would have resulted in that tie - only, that was never in the rules, and anyway it would have been strange for only four of the seven actual rounds to count, when five of the seven rounds in 1938 counted. The change in the scoring system was not an issue, as it changed from 6-5-4-3-2-1 for the top six finishers to 5-4-3-2-1 for the top five, and the worst result in consideration for the title was a fourth for Mellors in the TT, so that only the overall number of points would have changed, but not the difference between the two riders.