31 replies to this topic

[Paul Taylor]

I have recently taken an interest in the 1922 GP de l'ACF at Strasbourg and to my surprise, I found a fair amount of information about it on the internet. Was there something notable about this race, as I cannot find much information about the other French Grand Prix of the same era.

I have found these sites/pages on the 1922 race:

http://www.f1-legend...ag/011022.shtml
http://www.motoringp...ord=&fleID=5857
http://ourworld.cs.c...ooft/type29.htm

Before anyone asks, I have Googled...but I can't find much more than this. Does anyone have any other photos of the race at all please? Also, does anyone know where I could find footage of this race?

[LittleChris]

I believe it was the first GP where everyone started together rather than at intervals

[Vitesse2]

Not only the first mass start, but also the first rolling start in Europe. The cars were piloted by a motorcyclist and were not supposed to pass him until they reached the start line, but by the time they arrived the first couple of rows were already ahead of the bike: it might be more, but spectators lost it from view in the "muddy haze"!

[Racing Lines]

In few words, we can say that the 1922 GP de l’ACF was the first GP under the new « 2 litre, 650 kg minimum » formula which will remain four years. Ballot and Bugatti cars had some interesting aerodynamic nose (sorry, I don't know how to post pictures) but Fiat entered four wonderful new 6 cylinders 804s. This car was dominant during the race with Pietro Bordino and Felice Nazzaro (winner of the 1907 GP de l’ACF) but was responsible for a dramatic end of the race.
After 5 hours, the car of Biagio Nazzaro (Felice’s nephew) had a problem at full speed : his car threw a rear wheel, hit a tree and rolled again and again. Biagio Nazzaro was killed.
Two laps later, Bordino lost a rear wheel, too, and crashed, at slow speed.

Later, Fiat engineers discovered a rear axle problem.

Felice Nazzaro learned Biagio’s death at the finish.

Only three cars were classified ! 2nd : de Vizcaya (Bugatti), 3rd : Marco (Bugatti).

From a french point of view, the choice of the Strasbourg circuit was symbolic because it was a way to celebrate the come back of the Alsace-Lorraine region in France, after WW I.

In his book about Bugatti, Borgeson wrote that the Ballot car had a spare wheel just in front of the radiator, under the « aerodynamic » nose. Is there someone able to confirm this ?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
Also, does anyone know where I could find footage of this race?

There is footage of the start in the Shell History of Motor Racing series-part2.

[robert dick]

Ballot spare wheel :
In the contemporary press, in the technical description of the cars, it was mentioned that the spare wheel was placed next to the radiator. On the other hand, after the event, it was reported that during the race the spare wheels were not taken along/were left in the pits.

Voisin (touring car GP) :
http://perso.wanadoo.../gpacf1922.html

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Racing Lines
...In his book about Bugatti, Borgeson wrote that the Ballot car had a spare wheel just in front of the radiator, under the « aerodynamic » nose. Is there someone able to confirm this ?

Yes, the upper half of the round nose piece could be removed giving way to a large area between the radiator and the round grill holding one wheel.

[GIGLEUX]

With upper part of the nose opened.

[aerogi]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
I have recently taken an interest in the 1922 GP de l'ACF at Strasbourg and to my surprise, I found a fair amount of information about it on the internet. Was there something notable about this race, as I cannot find much information about the other French Grand Prix of the same era.

There's a pictorial of 17 pictures of the 1924 event posted here.. You will have to register though...

[Racing Lines]

The 1922 GP de l’ACF reminds me one question :

Did Ernest Henry design the 1922 Sunbeam car or not ?

It looks like a very controversial point.

Laurence Pomeroy (in « The Grand Prix Cars, volume 1 »), Henry Segrave (in « the lure of speed ») answered « yes » to this question.
But according to a very extensive investigation made by Borgeson about Ernest Henri (in Automobile Quarterly Vol.11 n°3), things are very unclear. Borgeson talked to John Wyer (who joined Sunbeam Talbot Darracq in 1927) who confirmed.

BUT, after that, Borgeson talked to Paul Yvelin (french historian) who denied categorically. Yvelin based his statement on a René Thomas’s comment. According Borgeson, Thomas was supposed to be a Sunbeam driver in 1922 (I haven’t found in which race in 1922 but he was for sure in 1921).
More than that, Borgeson met Ernest Henry’s son who denied too, telling that, after Ballot (in 1921), his father « went to Omega Six and designed the first car for the wood merchant who had decided that he wanted to be a car manufacturer ».

Confusing, isn’t it ?

[robert dick]

The 1922 Sunbeam was designed by Ernest Henry - confirmed by Jean Chassagne, and Anthony Heal in his Sunbeam book. However Henry worked in Suresnes, in an office of the former Darracq factory, not in England. Chassagne was responsible for the data flow between Suresnes and Wolverhampton.

The 1922 Ballot was the 1921 car modified by Edmond Moglia.

According to "La Vie Automobile" (1923), the Omega Six was designed by Adrien Gatoux.

[Roger Clark]

The cars of 1922 were technically interesting, with a lot of new ideas, some of which worked and some which were best forgotten, but they must surely have been the least spectacular of all Grand Prix cars.

[robert dick]

Correction :
The name of the engineer who designed the Omega Six was Maurice Gadoux - not Adrien Gatoux as mentioned in my previous post (sorry for my defective memory).
The Omega Six was described in October 1922 in La Vie Automobile.
Beside his work on the Omega Six, Gadoux was employed by Clément-Bayard, Hispano-Suiza and Delaunay-Belleville.

That Ernest Henry was responsible for the 1922 Sunbeam is also confirmed by Robert Laly (who was riding mechanic for René Thomas in the 1914 Indianapolis winning Delage, later in the Ballot, and for Chassagne in the 1922 Sunbeam).

After having modified Henry's 2-liter 4-cylinder Ballot, Edmond Moglia was responsible for the Djelmo record car, for the Bugatti supercharger, and for the National Pescara. He finished his career at Hotchkiss.

[paulhooft]

I was a little amazed that my pages on Compuserve are still in the air,
I cancelled my subsribtion 4 years ago! and have asked them to delete the site.

There is a nice 93 page soft cover book by

Bernard Truche :
Grand Prix de l ACF Strassbourg 1922
75eme Anniversaire 1922-1997

that gives a lot of information, plans of the circuit and and many photo's of the 1922 Grand Prix de France at Strassbourg.


If you want more help email me

Paul Hooft

[Paul Taylor]

Thanks for all the information guys. However, I am still looking for 'highlights' footage of the race. A member of my forum is sending me a 50MB review of the race, but it would be nice to have the original on VHS (or DVD).

Originally posted by paulhooft
I was a little amazed that my pages on Compuserve are still in the air,
I cancelled my subsribtion 4 years ago! and have asked them to delete the site.

There is a nice 93 page soft cover book by

Bernard Truche :
Grand Prix de l ACF Strassbourg 1922
75eme Anniversaire 1922-1997

Thanks for that Is the book written in French?

[paulhooft]

There is a nice 93 page soft cover book by

Bernard Truche :
Grand Prix de l ACF Strassbourg 1922
75eme Anniversaire 1922-1997

Yes, The book is in French,
However, it is full of pictures of the track, The Grand Prix, a Motorcycle race, and a Touring car race that were all held on that weekend.
But it is very much a pictorial book
There are pictures of all the participants and motor cycles and cars in the book
Another chapters has pictures of Jean Bugatti's accident, that took place near Duppigheim on the Dutlenheim Enzheim leg of the circuit.

The only problem is that the book may be very hard to find...
I have not seen it voor sale in the last 5 years..

Paul Hooft

[Kvadrat]

Paul, can you give some details of motorcycle and touring car races?

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by paulhooft
The only problem is that the book may be very hard to find...
I have not seen it voor sale in the last 5 years..

Paul Hooft

This it?;)

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...1QQcmdZViewItem

[paulhooft]

That is the book!!
And unless I am very much mistaken...
My French is good , but not perfect....
I understand that the seller is the writer, and he seems to have a only few left over,
that he likes to sell at this price.
So go for it!
Paul

[GIGLEUX]

Yes that's the book, but 25€...I bought it last year 10€!

[paulhooft]

ok, 10 euro is a real bargain!!
my book was sold to me 7 years ago, and somewhere in the region of 100 FF?
(15 euro??)
I have simply forgotten...
Paul

[Paul Taylor]

My friend (very) kindly purchased the book for me I'm hoping there's more pictures then text...I haven't studied French since I was 13 years old!

[paulhooft]

paul,
I am Dutch, but...
I was teached English and some French and German at School, 40 or so years ago...
That's not the way..
I learned to read and write English, speak French and German :
As Part of my hobby:
reading all those books about Autoracing....
And I learned french: by going to Alsace, France
Again it was hobby:
Bugatti's (mostly)

In the meantime I had French and all kinds of other... Food, French Wines, Italian wines, Belgian Beers, English Beers...
Ok, some new hobbys... I picked up.... along the road..
I enjoy them all...

Hope you like the book,
I am almost sure you will.
Greetings,

another Paul

[GIGLEUX]

Well said Paul! Life is short and hard so better to let a place for hobbies and it's important of not missing little pleasures!

[robert dick]

Coming back to Ernest Henry and the 1922 Sunbeam.

From "The Charlatan Mystery"/Griffith Borgeson/Automobile Quarterly Vol. 11 # 3, 1973 :

- the point of view of Paul Yvelin (apprenticeship at Delage in the 1930s, after-sales manager at Peugeot in the 1960s) and René Thomas :"Ernest Henry was never with Sunbeam, nor did he ever work for Coatalen. It seems that, on leaving Ballot, his health was already altered, and he occupied himself with the manufacture of automobile accessories - pistons, I believe. I have just spoken with my old comrade René Thomas who, himself indeed, on leaving Ballot, spent a year with Sunbeam before returning to Delage in 1923. He was a witness to that period and can speak of it knowledgeably. He assures me that in 1922 Henry was not with Sunbeam, and that he never designed an engine for Coatalen. Bertarione designed and built the sixes of 1923, but the preceding fours arrived, complete, from England. I refuse to discuss this matter with anyone. I give you these facts having a thorough knowledge of the subject. And, one time more, I deplore all these fantasies, all these canards, which are developed out of the history of the automobile."

- Ernest Henry's son : "He (Ernest Henry) had never anything to do with Sunbeam. They copied his engines totally. He was terribly bitter and always told me, "never go near that company!" My father went to Omega Six and designed the first car for the wood merchant who had decided that he wanted to be a car manufacturer. Of course the company went bankrupt."

- John Wyer (according to Borgeson, Wyer joined STD in 1927) : "Henry certainly worked for Coatalen in 1922 and was responsible for the two-liter four-cylinder Strasbourg GP cars. These were not successful and rarely appeared thereafter, and one feels that Henry must have been past his best. Following this episode, Coatalen persuaded Bertarione to leave Fiat and join Sunbeam, and Bertarione was responsible for the six-cylinder two-liter cars of 1923, which became the supercharged two-liter cars of 1924."


From Borgeson's "The Classic Twin Cam Engine"/1981 :
"After the race Fernand Vadier went directly to the Sunbeam pit to commiserate with Henry. His friend told him that modifications which Coatalen had insisted on making to his design had resulted in wholesale valve failure."
(Fernand Vadier was Henry's right-hand man/assistant at Ballot)

So it seems that Borgeson changed his mind between 1973 and 1981, accepting that Henry was responsible for the 1922 Sunbeam.

[Racing Lines]

Thank you Robert

I haven't read Borgeson's "The Classic Twin Cam Engine"/1981. You're right : he must have changed his mind.

[Dennis David]

 

 

Not only the first mass start, but also the first rolling start in Europe. The cars were piloted by a motorcyclist and were not supposed to pass him until they reached the start line, but by the time they arrived the first couple of rows were already ahead of the bike: it might be more, but spectators lost it from view in the "muddy haze"! 

 

Does anyone have documentation factoid? 

[Vitesse2]

'Pour la première fois, les concurrents partent en groupe, avec une lancée d'environ 300 metres, un pilote faisant le pas durant cette lancée. En l'occurence c'st le motocycliste Naas qui remplit le rôle de pilote.' Le Journal, July 16th 1922, page 1.

[Vitesse2]

And I probably have a photocopy of this report somewhere ...

 

http://forums.autosp...s/#entry1674219

[Dennis David]

Photcopy would be great!

[Paul Taylor]

Photcopy would be great!

 

Or to save you waiting, here it is fully readable in the French newspaper archive: http://gallica.bnf.f...7x/f1.item.zoom

 

 

About this race - perhaps the most interesting looking cars were the 'boiler' Ballots, one of which was crashed by Jules Goux. Do any of these still exist?

 

[robert dick]

As far as I know, no 2-litre 1922 Grand Prix Ballot has survived.

Front end of the Ballot:
http://gallica.bnf.f...ot?rk=1309019;2
http://gallica.bnf.f...lot?rk=300430;4

Giulio Masetti started with Pete DePaolo as riding mechanic - see for example:
https://books.google... ballot&f=false

But on photos taken before the race, there is another mechanic with Masetti in the Ballot. Any idea of his name?
http://gallica.bnf.f...ot?rk=1330478;4
http://gallica.bnf.f...lot?rk=708158;0
http://gallica.bnf.f...ot?rk=1587990;4

Masetti's Ballot during the race, with Monsieur Ballot in the foreground:
http://gallica.bnf.f...lot?rk=858373;2