717 replies to this topic

[10kDA]

At the time, Stromberg was owned by Bendix Corporation, which was headquartered in South Bend IN. I don't know if this model Stromberg carb were manufactured there or at Stromberg's facilities. Bendix was a very large, diversified manufacturing business in the automotive and aerospace - before it was called aerospace - fields, along with consumer products. They were an early developer of computers, avionics, and guidance systems for military and commercial aircraft. From 1931 to 1962 they sponsored the Bendix Trophy, awarded to the winner of a long-distance air race that was generally run over as great a distance as possible from a start point within the US to an endpoint at the location of the National Air Races. The finish of the Bendix race was integrated into the weeklong NAR activities until 1949, after which the NAR ceased to be for 15 years.

 

Stromberg is of course identified as the popular choice of many early Ford-focused hot rodders. New Stromberg 97 carbs are apparently now being manufactured by a company using the name but not likely associated with the original Stromberg.

 

The only Bendix Stromberg pressure carb with which I have any experience was the PS5, a single-barrel carb made for opposed-cylinder aircraft engines. It's been twenty years since I had one in my hands, and that was for just a period of hours. Though I may try one on a project I've got in process. A friend who is a Charles Taylor Award-winning A&P describes pressure carbs as "combining all the worst features of fuel injection and carburetors, with none of the advantages of either."

[Catalina Park]

When that page says...

"However, British Stromberg and Zenith-Stromberg are unrelated to the American carburetors."

They are talking about the actual carburettors, not the company itself. 
 

[Vitesse2]

Grace's Guide isn't all that helpful: see the February 1937 advert for a 'service exchange plan' for both Zenith and Stromberg.

 

https://www.gracesgu..._Carburetter_Co

 

There are early 1920s references to Stromberg carbs being fitted to some imported US cars - the Dixie Flier for example - and there's a 1922 note in The Autocar (i/d 25/8/22) that they had appointed Gerard Kirby Ltd as sole distributor. An advert in The Autocar's 1924 Motor Show issue has a company called Stromberg Motor Devices Ltd at 173-75 Cleveland Street W1.Then Commercial Motor i/d 25/10/25 says:

 

British Stromberg Carburetters.

Stromberg Motor Devices, Ltd., inform.us that they are now in occupation of premises at Milman's Street and Cheyne Walk, Chelsea, London, S.W10. At their new address the company. inform us that they are provided with factory accommodation for the production of Stromberg carburetters in this country, and machine tooI equipment is now being installed. It is anticipated that within a period of two months a British-built Stromberg carburetter will be on the market.

 

Similar announcement in The Autocar 6/11/25.

 

Autocar archive is a bit glitchy in the late 1920s, but the 1931 Motor Show issue has Stromberg Motor Devices Ltd at Bendix Works, King's Road, Tyseley, Birmingham. The London addresses were retained for servicing and they appear to have been in partnership with University Motors to run those (Autocar i/d 18/12/31). Shortly afterwards the company name seems to have been changed to Bendix-Perrot Brakes Ltd (Autocar i/d 6/5/32).

 

However, Bendix seem to have withdrawn from the UK market. Autocar 12/6/36:

 

The Zenith Carburetter Co., Ltd., who are now the sole manufacturers of the Stromberg carburetter in this country, have moved their tuning station to their new offices and works at Honeypot Lane, Stanmore, Middlesex.

 

If the much-missed Flight archive ever comes back it might tell us more about the aviation carbs ...

[Rupertlt1]

William Bendix set up shop in South Bend, Indiana, in early 1930 at Westmore and Nancy Streets.

Stromberg Motor Devices Inc.

Previously in Chicago.

"Stromberg plants have been maintained in Chicago, Boston, Detroit,

Indianapolis, Minneapolis and London, England"

The South Bend Tribune, Sun, 23 Mar 1930, Page 6

 

Did this carb feature on the P51 Mustang?

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 06 May 2024 - 19:40.

[10kDA]

William Bendix set up shop in South Bend, Indiana, in early 1930 at Westmore and Nancy Streets.

Stromberg Motor Devices Inc.

Previously in Chicago.

"Stromberg plants have been maintained in Chicago, Boston, Detroit,

Indianapolis, Minneapolis and London, England"

The South Bend Tribune, Sun, 23 Mar 1930, Page 6

 

Did this carb feature on the P51 Mustang?

 

RGDS RLT

As is often the case with news items in daily papers, the story becomes somewhat truncated. Vincent Bendix's Bendix Corporation bought Stromberg in 1929, part of his long-term plan to specialize in supplying auto- and airmotive manufacturers.

 

I found a reference in a manual for Ranger aircraft engines which may clarify the who what & when a bit, with what appears to be the formal name of Stromberg & Bendix divisions around the WWII timeframe. The manual refers to the standard carb for the 175 hp Ranger as manufactured by "Stromberg Aircraft Carburetor Div. of the Bendix Products Division, South Bend, Indiana" - assuming (which may be a stretch but maybe not) Stromberg's aircraft Carb Division had greatest responsibility for aircraft carbs, it would be reasonable to expect the Packard Merlin's PD-18B1 to have been manufactured at their South Bend facility.

Edited by 10kDA, 06 May 2024 - 18:22.

[Rupertlt1]

Correction to above: Vincent Bendix (1881-1945)

RGDS RLT 

[Rupertlt1]

Plaque at the National Airforce Museum, Dayton, Ohio, next to a Packard Merlin engine: 

PACKARD V-1650 "MERLIN" ENGINE

The V-1650 liquid-cooled engine was the U.S. version of the famous British

Rolls-Royce "Merlin" engine which powered the "Spitfire" and "Hurricane"

fighters during the Battle of Britain in 1940. In Sept.1940, the Packard Co.

agreed to build the Merlin engine for both the American and the British

Governments, and adapted it for American mass-production methods. The

first two Packard-built Merlins to be completed were demonstrated on test

stands at a special ceremony at the Packard plant in Detroit on August 2,

1941. Full production began in 1942 and by the end of World War II, more

than 16,000 Merlins had been produced in the U.S.A. The Army Air Forces

used the engine almost exclusively in the famed P-51 "Mustang", for it

provided greatly improved high-altitude performance over the Allison

V-1710 engine used in earlier series of that airplane. The V-1650 Merlin

also replaced the V-1710 in the "F" series of the P-40. The British also

used the Packard-built Merlins during the last three years of the war in their

"Spitfire", "Mosquito" and "Lancaster" airplanes.

END

On my recent visit to Dayton I was able to photograph the carb with a Stromberg manufacturers tag.

By the way this is a wonderful museum (second visit), no entry charge, free parking.

RGDS RLT    

Edited by Rupertlt1, 06 July 2024 - 06:42.

[Sterzo]

...the Packard Co. agreed to build the Merlin engine for both the American and the British

Governments, and adapted it for American mass-production methods.

It would be fascinating to know what changes were made, especially as the presumption is that they were achieved without compromising the end product. It may well be that Packard were more advance in casting techniques than Rolls Royce, so that less machining was necessary.

[Garsted]

It would be fascinating to know what changes were made, especially as the presumption is that they were achieved without compromising the end product. It may well be that Packard were more advance in casting techniques than Rolls Royce, so that less machining was necessary.

The way I heard it, there was quite a lot of hand fitting of mating parts. The Packard folks applied tighter automotive tolerances to the drawings so that any parts could be assembled together without the need for selective assembly, hand scraping, or other fettling.

Steve

[GreenMachine]

Gaskets.  Packhard used paper, RR used ... ?  I have also read of the machining/tolerances differences.  AFAIK the engines were more-or-less identical/interchangeable (on a like-for-like basis), but prepared to be told otherwise.  In practice the engines were supplied to a particular factory, and I assume inter-mixing necessarily occurred in-theatre.  Exception might be the P51, I think Packhard supplied NA with all its requirements.

[10kDA]

Much info here re: production of Merlins. Note the references to the numerous versions of the Merlin, as with nearly all A/C engines, for various specific applications.

 

https://www.jrcengin...kard-Merlin.pdf

 

This article contains a little additional info but the author seems to make the somewhat common mistake of confusing tolerances with clearances:

 

https://www.autoweek...-better-merlin/

 

The Smithsonian Institution's National Air & Space Museum has in its collection engineering and technical documents generated by Packard during production of their Merlins, and compiled by Arthur P. Fraas, experimental projects engineer for Packard's Merlin program from 1943-1945. These are available through a request to NASM. I'd like to read these as they undoubtedly contain more detail about engine characteristics and manufacturing processes than what is found in most sources more readily available at this time. I'll take technical writing over the "Who made the better Merlins?" stuff every time.

 

https://sova.si.edu/...a2d1a134158ca3b

[Odseybod]

"The Merlin In Perspective - the combat years" by Alex Harvey-Bailey (No. 2 in the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust's Historical Series) has a brief Appendix on the Packard Merlin - brief because he wasn't directly involved with day-to-day communications with Packard, which were handled by R-R's Glasgow factory. He suggests some 60,000 Packard Merlins were built - the Hurricane is not listed among its recipients but they were also used in some Lancasters, including the 617 Squadron aircraft used on the Dambusters raid.

 

Biggest difference between the R-R and Packard Merlin was apparently the supercharger drive, the Packard version using epicyclic gearing instead of the Farman drive on R-R engines, while also having Bendix (?) carburettors and American magnetos.

[10kDA]

This superb page, heading

 

The American Automobile Industry in World War Two
An American Auto Industry Heritage Tribute by David D Jackson

 

contains a table, "Packard World War Two Merlin Aircraft Engine Production" listing Packard-built Merlin versions and applications. The Packard engines with Merlin designation appear to have been built for Canadian-built aircraft plus some Australian. It would make sense in terms of logistics to source US-built engines for Canadian-built airframes. Some of the entries on the chart do not specifically refer to Canadian versions of British airframes while others do, which implies those were British-built airframes. I'm not familiar with British aircraft models and variants so I don't know for sure if this is the case. In keeping with the typical US military designation system, the versions for US aircraft were designated V-1650 followed by a "dash" number identifying specific configurations, equipment, and applications. The page states 54,714 Merlins were built by Packard, and other sources indicate additional Merlins were built by Continental Motors, numbering in the hundreds.

 

http://usautoindustr...com/packard.htm

 

This is a wonderful page and it's possibly still being updated. I hope so - info that ought to be added includes Bendix Corp and Stromberg Division as discussed earlier in this thread, under either/both "Other WWII Manufacturers" + "Indiana Companies". But gathering all US WWII manufacturing information for a web page will be a monumental task.

[Rupertlt1]

Another question is who built the superchargers?

Where were the P-51 Mustangs built?

Did they build Lancasters in Canada?

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 07 July 2024 - 02:22.

[GreenMachine]

...?

Where were the P-51 Mustangs built?

Did they build Lancasters in Canada?

RGDS RLT

 

P51s were built in USA and Australia, at least, 

 

Yes, Canada's Victory Aircraft built 300(?) B.X Lancasters, delivered to Canadian squadrons in theatre.  This followed unsuccessful attempts to have the Americans build them. (Robertson, Lancaster - the story of a famous bomber)

[10kDA]

Another question is who built the superchargers?

Where were the P-51 Mustangs built?

Did they build Lancasters in Canada?

RGDS RLT

As far as I know, Packard built the superchargers of various configs for all Packard-built engines so equipped including those installed in CA-17 Mk 20 and CA-18 Mk 21 Australian-built Mustangs.

In 1943 P-51s were needed in such demand that B-25 production had to be moved out of the Inglewood California (Los Angeles area) NAA plant to their Kansas City KS plant, so the entire CA plant was producing Merlin (V-1650) -powered P-51Bs. NAA opened another plant in Grand Prairie TX (often referred to as "the Dallas plant") in 1941 and had moved AT-6/Harvard production there, but starting in 1943 a portion of that facility was used to produce P-51C variants. The "C" signified they were "B" models built at the Dallas Plant rather than Inglewood. D models were built at Inglewood and Dallas and K models (almost the same as the D but with different propeller and dorsal fairing) were built at Dallas only.

P-51H models were built starting in late 1944 at Inglewood and P-51M models, same as H models, were to be built at Dallas, but the surrender of Japan resulted in cancellation of all pending orders after 555 (of an orignal order for 2000) P-51H models had been delivered and a single P-51M had been completed by the Dallas plant.

[Doug Nye]

As an aside, the late Tony Rudd told me that during the later war years he was in charge of analysing R-R Merlin service faults and failures, and that comprehensive records were accumulated covering every individual power unit and its regular service and rebuild life.  He also told me that sometime in the late '70s/early '80s the contemporary management of R-R had decided to redevelop one of their factory sites.  It happened to include a storage building jam-packed with that same Merlin series historical paperwork.  As a simple clearance expedient some anonymous management cretin chose the option of burning the building - and it contents - to the ground...

 

Tony was notorious for inventive story telling, but as I recall from the tone of that recollection, he was unlikely to have invented this one...  If those archives do survive, maybe someone else's invented it, perhaps to wind up Tony?  If so, they most decidedly succeeded.

 

DCN

[Rupertlt1]

On my recent visit to Dayton I was able to photograph the carb with a Stromberg manufacturers tag.

By the way this is a wonderful museum (second visit), no entry charge, free parking.

RGDS RLT    

 

With the Spitfires flying over Goodwood this weekend I was reminded of Stromberg carbs, as used on the Packard Merlin.

You can't be in Dayton, Ohio, for long without becoming aware of the NCR company (National Cash Register).

Turns out they manufactured Chandler-Evans aircraft carburetors during World War Two "for various bombers."

Before the Computer, James W. Cortada, Page 212.

The work of Milton E. Chandler, a former Stromberg employee, demands attention.

Did he influence the design of the carburetor used on the Packard Merlin engine?

Franklin C. Mock, his successor at Stromberg, also played a part.
​While at Stromberg were they located in South Bend, Indiana?

https://www.enginehi...elSysHx06.shtml

See also:

https://dingeraviati...re/spitmark.htm

RGDS RLT 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 08 September 2024 - 07:12.