690 replies to this topic

[Vitesse2]

Thomson & Taylor at Brooklands were amongst the companies which refurbished parts from crashed German planes; in general these went to maintain the captured/crashed German aircraft operated by the RAE at Farnborough and by 1426 (EA) Flight, AKA the Rafwaffe.

[Gary Davies]

A certain serial frequent poster here threatens opprobrium for "...whoever cites the Daily Mail..."

 

Well here's a glorious* exception -  http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz4FzHYqgE1

 

*I refer to the photographs, not the copy. Even a speed read informs me there was apparently an aircraft manufacturer by the name of Messer-schmitt.  

[Sharman]

A certain serial frequent poster here threatens opprobrium for "...whoever cites the Daily Mail..."
 
Well here's a glorious* exception -  http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz4FzHYqgE1
 
*I refer to the photographs, not the copy. Even a speed read informs me there was apparently an aircraft manufacturer by the name of Messer-schmitt.  

and most of the invaders were not Nazis

[kayemod]

and most of the invaders were not Nazis

 

That's true, although the Nazis were indeed running the country before and during WW2, most Germans weren't party members, and conversely many who were members were not German. Nazi Party membership in 1939 was about 5 million, throughout the war numbers increased to reach a peak of around 8 million, that's maybe 15% 0f the total population. The Daily Mail has a Nazi/Hitler obsession, for them the term Nazi is applied routinely to any German in that period. It would be just as inaccurate to constantly refer to "Conservative Battle of Britain pilots". I only skimmed the article, but I'm surprised that Adolf himself doesn't appear to have been mentioned anywhere in it.

 

They're oddly inconsistent though. In a dug-up old article reprinted today on the Thames AA forts, the paper refers constantly to "opposition aircrafts" (sic), but I don't imagine that they are suggesting that the Messerschmitts etc were flown by members of the UK Labour Party.

 

If you put the photographer's name into Google, there's lots of interesting information on the equipment and techniques he used to get those remarkable images, all the better for being "hand-held"

[Bloggsworth]

Apropos of making people jealous, my nephew has bought my sister a flight in the 2 seater Spitfire - Not cheap, and why should it be.

[Gary Davies]

Envy goes nowhere near it! Your lucky skin an' blister. I hope she has a terrific time! 

[SJ Lambert]

Temora’s Spitfire history

https://youtu.be/uLaXRzbYzqQ

[Bloggsworth]

Envy goes nowhere near it! Your lucky skin an' blister. I hope she has a terrific time! 

 

She flew a Spitfire, which is more than our father did during WW2, a Hurricane, yes, Spitfire, no.

[moffspeed]

Interesting stuff, as usual a motor sport connection is not too far away...

 

My late father passed away earlier this year, like most (genuine) veterans he remained very private about his WW2 experiences until the candle of life flickered. We knew that he had been a Surgeon in the R.N., thrust into the world of Atlantic convoys etc in his mid 20's but that was about it. However in his final months he talked to me at length about his other work investigating aircraft accidents (especially Hurricane and Spit) out of Naval and RAF airbases.

 

He seemingly worked intensively on harness design - both the original Sutton harness which was (arguably) the first ever quick release harness and also the later QK system which attached the harness to the (reinforced) aircraft's seat rather than the air frame for improved survivability. He could never understand my passion for motor sport but in a way his work mirrored this - but he never let on. 

 

Back in the 60's my journeys to school in dad's Ford Corsair always involved the elaborate checking process to confirm that the (very non-standard) Irvin seat belt was correctly adjusted. 40 years later I begun to understand why. 

 

Incidentally if you haven't seen the Alain de Cadenet Spitfire clip please call it up on You Tube, it really is a classic...

[Roy C]

 

Incidentally if you haven't seen the Alain de Cadenet Spitfire clip please call it up on You Tube, it really is a classic...

 

de Cad nearly becomes decap as Ray Hanna defines the meaning of low flying: https://youtu.be/4iOoiEbtf2w

(the clip includes some swearing, for ******* obvious reasons)

Edited by Roy C, 13 December 2017 - 06:58.

[Doug Nye]

That sequence was being directed by our late friend Martin Stockham, of Gemini Productions, who was facing the same way as the camera - of course - and had his stills camera with him at the time. He bawled 'DOWN'! to Al and the cameraman just as he pressed the shutter release and took a remarkable head-on photo of the fast-approaching Spitfire, a print of which adorns our downstairs loo here at home.  Ray Hanna - with whom Martin had worked quite often - treated the entire thing as a huge joke.  Poor Al - who had in effect been attacked from the rear, unsighted - was entirely unaware of how close the prop arc would come to his head, and he wasn't perhaps quite so sure...

 

Ray Hanna was a risk taker, but a hugely experienced, capable and competent one.

 

DCN

[Glengavel]

de Cad nearly becomes decap as Ray Hanna defines the meaning of low flying: https://youtu.be/4iOoiEbtf2w

(the clip includes some swearing, for ******* obvious reasons)

 

First time I saw that, I watched it over and over again trying to work out where the Spitfire actually comes from. It almost pops up out of nowhere.

[Charlieman]

I just watched a documentary about a Spitfire excavation. The plane crashed after the engine overheated and the pilot successfully evacuated. It was reported that the Spitfire "screamed down". Would a Spitfire, presumably at lower than normal altitude on reduced throttle and assuming that the engine was rotating, make any noise before impact?

[Allan Lupton]

I just watched a documentary about a Spitfire excavation. The plane crashed after the engine overheated and the pilot successfully evacuated. It was reported that the Spitfire "screamed down". Would a Spitfire, presumably at lower than normal altitude on reduced throttle and assuming that the engine was rotating, make any noise before impact?

In my opinion, it is the sort of language used by the current documentary-makers, rather than a well-researched comment. Where was the documentary to be found?

[Vitesse2]

In my opinion, it is the sort of language used by the current documentary-makers, rather than a well-researched comment. Where was the documentary to be found?

I'm guessing it was episode 1 of Dig WW2 with Dan Snow, which was made by BBC Northern Ireland in 2012 and recently repeated on BBC4 - available on iPlayer for the next 14 days. From memory, I think the 'screamed down' comment was from the only surviving witness.

[kayemod]

I'm guessing it was episode 1 of Dig WW2 with Dan Snow, which was made by BBC Northern Ireland in 2012 and recently repeated on BBC4 - available on iPlayer for the next 14 days. From memory, I think the 'screamed down' comment was from the only surviving witness.

 

 

I scream when I see the name Dan Snow, probably my least favourite TV presenter.

[Odseybod]

Perhaps the airflow whistling? It could have attained a reasonable speed if plummeting near-vertically from (say) a couple of thousand feet. It must have been reasonably high if the pilot was able to bail out successfully.

 

I didn't think overheating was particularly common on the Spitfire once in the air, unless there was some damage to the cooling system (Allan may have a different view). Far more worrying was the sudden silence when the spur gear on the magneto drive failed, a fault the Merlin suffered from for a while. In which case the only screaming was more likely to come from the pilot, as a stream of naughty words directed towards Rolls-Royce.

[10kDA]

I just watched a documentary about a Spitfire excavation. The plane crashed after the engine overheated and the pilot successfully evacuated. It was reported that the Spitfire "screamed down". Would a Spitfire, presumably at lower than normal altitude on reduced throttle and assuming that the engine was rotating, make any noise before impact?

Well, a glider makes a very noticeable sound, audible from a few hundred yards away, doing maybe 60 kts in the landing pattern so a much-draggier airframe like a Spitfire, at a presumeably higher speed, would probably make significantly more noise even if the engine was seized. "Scream"? Maybe?

[Charlieman]

I'm guessing it was episode 1 of Dig WW2 with Dan Snow, which was made by BBC Northern Ireland in 2012 and recently repeated on BBC4 - available on iPlayer for the next 14 days. From memory, I think the 'screamed down' comment was from the only surviving witness.

Correct. The expression was used by the now elderly witness and repeated by the presenter. It seemed to me to be something that the production team might have diplomatically queried.

[GreenMachine]

The pilot may have lowered the flaps to slow up, making his exit easier, and the canopy would be open, or jettisoned.  All of which, with the suggestions above, could lead to a whistling/screaming arising from the airflow.

 

Last week I stopped off at RAAF Williamtown to update myself on the Fighter World museum there, and while there spent some time on the observation deck.  The F35 may be a stealth fighter, but it sure whistles in landing configuration ,,, 

[elansprint72]

The "round the world Spitfire" arrived back at Goodwood today! Well done to all involved.

[Ian G]

Yeah,great adventure.My brother has been following their progress.

 

https://www.thesun.c...the-world-trip/

[Sterzo]

A D-Day liveried Spitfire flew over the house today. Always a fine sight and sound.

[Steve99]

A D-Day liveried Spitfire flew over the house today. Always a fine sight and sound.

 

I consider myself privileged to live a mile across the fields from RAF Coningsby. The sight and sound of the Lancaster, Spitfires, Hurricanes and Dakota - a few rare times all at once - is not uncommon in the spring and summer, and every time gives me shivers. Awesome sight. For any others interested, if you're ever in this part of the part of the world, pay a visit to the Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre, preferably on a day when they taxi their own Lancaster, 'Just Jane' and hopefully the Mosquito they have under restoration. It's a wonderful place.

[bradbury west]

OT a little, but related.
BBC 4 9pm this coming Wednesday. Prof Alice Roberts, in her Digging for Britain series, covers the rescue of a Fairey Barracuda dive bomber which was found intact in 2018 when the National Grid carried out a seabed survey ahead at laying a new cable between U.K. And France. The programme carries a 4 star rating.
Roger Lund.

[Gary Davies]

Well, a glider makes a very noticeable sound, audible from a few hundred yards away, doing maybe 60 kts in the landing pattern so a much-draggier airframe like a Spitfire, at a presumeably higher speed, would probably make significantly more noise even if the engine was seized. "Scream"? Maybe?

I trust this isn't too off-topic, but you remind me.

Several years ago the CFI at the gliding club asked me to do the 'Hangar flight'. That is the last flight of the day, normally as the sun is rushing down to the horizon and the task is to taxi the glider right up to the hangar rather than laboriously push it all the way from wherever on the field it might be.

We're talking rural Australia here and sheep grazing country. As all Strayans know, in dusty country sheep take on the same colour as the land they're scratching about on.

So there I am, just turned finals and it's getting really dark now. I'm at 150-ish feet. My approach speed was around 50 kts (90km/h). There's the hanger right ahead and all was going swimmingly until I noticed what initially appeared to be the ground ahead moving. Weird. I soon realised that a mob of sheep had got into our strip (we'd been flying about a kilometre away all day.) As I got closer some of them, the nearer ones, began to disperse.

At which point I twigged. The aircraft I was flying had flaps and airbrakes and they do make a noise on approach. The faster you go the more noise they make. So I smartly pushed the stick forward which increased the speed and levelled out perhaps 8 feet high. No problem with stalling because I was way above stalling speed and besides, I was getting some ground effect. But the effect on the sheep was miraculous, The greater noise from above caused them to move like the parting of the Red Sea. Brilliant. In no time flat, the way ahead was clear so I put in a whisker more airbrake, pulled up slightly and stopped in just the intended spot in front of the hanger. As I emerged from the aircraft, a car with a couple of anxious fellows arrived at speed. They'd seen the large cloud of dust as the sheep scattered. What they found was a glider pilot grinning from ear to ear. One of my most enjoyable flights ever.

Edited by Gary Davies, 10 December 2019 - 02:04.

[10kDA]

At which point I twigged. The aircraft I was flying had flaps and airbrakes and they do make a noise on approach. The faster you go the more noise they make. So I smartly pushed the stick forward which increased the speed and levelled out perhaps 8 feet high. No problem with stalling because I was way above stalling speed and besides, I was getting some ground effect. But the effect on the sheep was miraculous, The greater noise from above caused them to move like the parting of the Red Sea. Brilliant. In no time flat, the way ahead was clear so I put in a whisker more airbrake, pulled up slightly and stopped in just the intended spot in front of the hanger. As I emerged from the aircraft, a car with a couple of anxious fellows arrived at speed. They'd seen the large cloud of dust as the sheep scattered. What they found was a glider pilot grinning from ear to ear. One of my most enjoyable flights ever.

Given the unlikelihood of going around, good thing they weren't cows or deer. Just asking - Grob Speed Astir?

[Gary Davies]

We had an Astir and a Blanik at the time. Funny... I recall the landing more than the a/c. I'm pretty sure it was the Blanik. Probably was, they're a noisy old tin can at the best of times.  

[Odseybod]

We had an Astir and a Blanik at the time. Funny... I recall the landing more than the a/c. I'm pretty sure it was the Blanik. Probably was, they're a noisy old tin can at the best of times.  

Ah, good solid Czech engineering. At Perranporth we aviated in a K-7 - great fun

[10kDA]

We had an Astir and a Blanik at the time. Funny... I recall the landing more than the a/c. I'm pretty sure it was the Blanik. Probably was, they're a noisy old tin can at the best of times.  

I asked due to hearing a Speed Astir with flaps and brakes out making much the same noise as a half dozen grade schoolers blowing through their "Snaps" boxes the morning after Halloween.

[bradbury west]

 A sad note in  a recent Daily Telegraph announced the death at home of Eleanor Wadsworth, aged 103, the last surviving Second World War female pilot. In the war she flew Spitfires and Hurricanes.  No formal obituary as yet, just a very nice photo and  what I wrote above.

  Being the last of any group is always a significant moment, I feel.

RIP

Roger Lund

[Vitesse2]

 A sad note in  a recent Daily Telegraph announced the death at home of Eleanor Wadsworth, aged 103, the last surviving Second World War female pilot. In the war she flew Spitfires and Hurricanes.  No formal obituary as yet, just a very nice photo and  what I wrote above.

  Being the last of any group is always a significant moment, I feel.

RIP

Roger Lund

Her passing was also noted by The Guardian, who, as well as linking four of their own obituaries for other female ATA pilots, linked to this page:

 

https://www.bpha.org...-pilot-of-wwii/

 

And how does it feel to be the last female pilot of the Second World War? “I think it’s just luck,” she said.

 

 

[TJJohansen]

That sequence was being directed by our late friend Martin Stockham, of Gemini Productions, who was facing the same way as the camera - of course - and had his stills camera with him at the time. He bawled 'DOWN'! to Al and the cameraman just as he pressed the shutter release and took a remarkable head-on photo of the fast-approaching Spitfire, a print of which adorns our downstairs loo here at home.  Ray Hanna - with whom Martin had worked quite often - treated the entire thing as a huge joke.  Poor Al - who had in effect been attacked from the rear, unsighted - was entirely unaware of how close the prop arc would come to his head, and he wasn't perhaps quite so sure...

 

Ray Hanna was a risk taker, but a hugely experienced, capable and competent one.

 

DCN

I remember going to Duxford's Classic Fighter Display in 1992. Some of my Chino friends had come from California, and we were to meet up prior to the show. When I arrived my buddy Simon showed me some video he had shot the day before, during the press launch. Ray Hanna was in the Norwegian P-51D flying together with the newly arrived P-38. Simon and some other guys had been allowed past the fence, and were photographing/ filming from the grass on the live side. The two planes were doing low level passes straight at them, the 38 passing slightly off to the side, and Ray right over their heads. On the last pass Simon tracked the 38 as it came towards him and passed off to the side. Then he turned the camera towards where the 51 was supposed to be. And he looked straight into a radiator scoop as the Mustang screamed over his head. At the time this 51 had a dent in the spinner. About 3in wide and one inch deep. When you pause the video at the right moment, you can clearly see the dent. The people on the other side of the fence said that had poor old Simon lifted a hand, he would have had his fingernails neatly trimmed. Simon brought this up with Ray some years later, and he replied; "oh yes, I knew a guy in the group so I wanted to come down and greet him".

 

To those not familiar with Ray Hanna or his flying, do not think of him as a madman who just went wild to impress people. That he wasn't. He was undoubtedly the best stick and rudder man on the circuit, a former Red Arrows leader, and a man with untold hours of low level flying. And to this day sorely missed.

 

T J

[Doug Nye]

Tony Gaze - the Australian aviator/racing driver credited with having suggested the use of RAF Westhampnett's perimeter track to Goodwood owner Freddie March as the basis of a motor race circuit in 1947-48 - was of course a wartime Spitfire pilot.  His kid brother Scott had been killed in an accident while flying from Westhampnett.  In later life Tony became relatively prickly.  He could be quite dismissive and indeed pompous.

 

I vividly remember one Revival Meeting when Tony had been watching three Spitfires going through a display sequence, then wheeling in for a stream landing.  He suddenly stiffened and snorted and glared around him and barked "I'm going to have a word with that last fellow - you do NOT land a Spitfire like that!".

 

The trio taxied up to the Driver Hospitality lounge fence, switched off, did their checks and then clambered from the cockpits.  Sure enough, as they walked by, Tony intercepted the one whose flying had displeased him and the dressing-down he delivered very publicly really would have done credit to an in-period RAF Squadron commander bollocking some newly-arrived P/O fresh from training.  I can still hear his opening line: "You there!  Now let me tell you... You do NOT land a Spitfire like that! " - etc etc.

 

Until that time I had always thought of him as a friendly veteran racer from Dunnunda - this was a different personality - but at least he was speaking from genuine personal experience.  I have no idea if his criticism was justified.  Of course - it might well have been.  Modern pilots eh?  Like modern racing drivers?  Now back in my day...

 

DCN

[Gary Davies]

You remind me...

 

[Odseybod]

Dagga dagga dagga!

[Gary Davies]

Bit of harmless fun and nostalgia. Main image of the mainland from Granite Island South Australia about 50 minutes before sunset. My 'cheat'... a Mk IX over The Revival a couple of years ago. And a lot of artificial graining to age the image. 

 

[Pete_f1]

My first ever post in TNF!

My nan (mother's side) was a fire woman during the war in the town of Nailsworth in Gloucestershire. One day two spitfires were flying over the area when they collided. One crashed into the railway embankment at Woodchester. She attended that incident and I believe that that the pilot perished.

I think this might be the incident:

Sergeant B H Cassidy (RCAF): killed; Sergeant R E Waters (RAAF): uninjured; Spitfire X4932 and Spitfire R7206, 52 Operational Training Unit; mid air collision near Aston Farm, Aston Down, Gloucestershire 6 February 1942.

Edited by Pete_f1, 05 May 2021 - 18:36.

[elansprint72]

The much-missed Cholmondeley Pageant of Power put on a few overhead displays, despite the weather... this pilot not only managed to find the place but put on a spendid display between the clouds. 

[FrankB]

IWM Duxford has a special exhibition running until the 20th of February showing the evolution of the aeroplane. There are 12 Spitfires, 11 of them airworthy, assembled in one hangar.

https://www.iwm.org....tion-of-an-icon

A friend and colleague was given about 5 minutes notice that he would be giving this TV interview.

https://youtu.be/aJVhQW7tjkU

[Ian G]

Interesting ,Thanks.