What was the best decade in F1?
#1
Posted 15 November 1999 - 23:33
Anyway, perhaps you could would care to give your opinion an briefly state why - Best drivers ? Best rivalries? Best Overtaking? Closest competition? etc..
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#2
Posted 16 November 1999 - 00:00
Just because you think you would be in the minority doesn't mean you're "wrong." In time, it very well could be that the judgment of history could support your view. Who knows? This is all very subjective, as much influenced by perception and myth as by reality and fact.
I find it hard to single out a particular decade. Here are a few suggestions based on my view of the world - which changes, BTW.
the 1933-1936 period: Nuvolari, Chiron, Varzi, Caracciola, Rosemeyer, Moll & Seaman to name a few; Alfa Romeo, Bugatti, Maserati, Auto Union, Mercedes-Benz, ERA, Delage (!).
the 1957-1966 period: the transition from red to green on the grid, Italian to English in the pits, kilometers to miles in the results...Fangio to Clark...
the 1970-1983 period: big grids and lots of happenings on and off the track, a really nasty war, the impact of Jackie Stewart, the great Super Rat, Jonsey, Mario, Gilles...Lotus and Tyrrell with the DFV to turbos and - the DFV...
These are just a few quick thoughts. I'm game for any other thoughts. BTW, "decades" aren't always the easy way to break them down IMO.
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
#3
Posted 16 November 1999 - 00:38
No era can rank as the best unless it includes the old Nurburgring, Zandvoort and Spa, as well as Monaco without guardrails. Today's tracks are too alike and too limp-wristed for me. The only great tracks now are Suzuka and Spa. Monaco doesn't lend itself to today's ultra wide cars and Monza has been ruined by chicanes.
I certainly would never question anyone's choice. What defines "great is so personal...but for me, the '60's stand as the defining era of motorsport.
#4
Posted 16 November 1999 - 02:04
It ISquite personal and that is both the good, the bad, and the ugly of it. I started with the first season of the 2500cc cars and since the first GP car I ever saw up close and personal & could touch was a Maserati 250F, I still have that emotional attachment to it and the era. Ditto the 60's - I was lucky and got to go many of the races at Watkins Glen back then. Remember "Gurney for President"?
Personally I didn't much care for the 1500cc cars, but since that was where Phil Hill, Gurney, Ginther, et al. were, accepted life. This was when I became a Champ Car, big bore sports car, & NASCAR fan as well.
However, in 1966, GP got serious again and I satyed with it for about 20 more years before getting discouraged and sidetracked.
For awhile I didn't like the 70's that much, but as I reflect they look better and better. Sorta the same deal with the munchkin 1500cc cars - I am now even looking at putting some effort into tracking that formula!
I tend to like uncertainty in racing...even if at the expense of drivers & teams I like: it is interesting to reflect that Phil Hill and Jim Clark could have been the only Champs of the 1500cc days...
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 11-15-1999).]
#5
Posted 16 November 1999 - 02:42
Since I began with the 1500cc cars, I have always regarded them with affection. They were like little precision instuments compared to the big stuff. I still remember the stir Clark and his 1 1/2 liter Lotus caused at Indy by turning 150 mph laps during a test. Also '64 was such a good year to begin. I often wonder if my deep love of road racing was a result of the competitiveness of that season. It was a great one.
I started going to the Glen in '67 or '68. I wonder if we ever passed each other unknowingly. The presence of those cars was awesome to a young kid! I regret missing the '50's. We can read all we want, but it's never the same as being there.
Have you ever considered how Black Jack Brabham was never a force during the 1500 cc era, right after winning two titles, yet as soon as the HP went back up he was a power again. It has always made me wonder how he would have fared during the turbo era!!!
[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 11-15-1999).]
#6
Posted 16 November 1999 - 03:23
I still think that 1964 was a super season in a super year. Having seen Surtees a few times in GP bikes, I already thought he was pretty neat.
Indeed, if I were to WDC years that really appeal to me -- in no particular order except as I think of them -- they would be:
- 1964
- 1982
- 1958
- 1976
- 1951
- 1966
- 1973
I missed 1968 & 1969 due to "military duties" which is to say I was in Viet-Nam. Did a desperation run up in 1970 to see the Fittipaldi win and generally there until 1980. I usually was in the Kendell press building area and wandered around the track during practice and watched the race from the press area -- ah, the power of the press! Okay, it was one of the few road races I covered outside the Road Atlanta & Sebring & Daytona races (sports cars - I wasn't allowed to do the Daytona 500 -- that was done by someone's brother-in-law apparently). My byline was usually either "UPI Racing Correspondent" or "UPI Wire Reports." The former was an inside joke: my nickname was "Wire" since I was one of the stringers they kept on (a VERY small) retainer for things like that.
I only did races because the UPI regional correspondent at the time hated them...my good fortune.
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 11-15-1999).]
#7
Posted 16 November 1999 - 03:50
Fearless John was, is and always will be my all-time favorite. I still think he was the fastest driver of that era, but Ferrari never started developing their Formula One cars until after Le Mans. What a great comeback year he had in 1964. Clark and Hill really had better cars, and one of them should have won, but Surtees was one of the towering figures of that generation.
I think alot about how time changes perceptions. I don't think anyone alive would have said with a straight face that Jochen Rindt was either better OR faster than Surtees or Gurney, yet if you ask most modern fans Rindt would be seen as the best of the three. When they were teammates at Cooper in '66, Surtees outqualified Rindt by something like 9 seconds in identical equipment at the Ring.
There are alot of guys like that. Dying seems to have helped many reputations The Motorsport 100 was a good list, but the ORDER they were in was ludicrous. Tony Brise actually ranked Graham Hill if I remember right!!!
You mention being at the Glen in'70 for Emmo's first win. On Saturday, I stood in the Lotus pits area next to Emmo and his car thinking "Who is this guy?" The next day he won the race! I felt a little sheepish for thinking he was nobody. Learned an important lesson: they are ALL good!
Forgive, please, how this rambles. It's hard to always stick with the topic.
[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 11-16-1999).]
#8
Posted 16 November 1999 - 04:48
Yeah, funny thing about what happened to Cooper when Fearless John showed up -- he made that big sled into a winner by the end of the season, something I would have never dreamed possible! It was just blinking huge! And I have to see if I can find a picture of the trophy JS got for setting the fastest lap at the USGP - it has to be seen to be believed!
The ONLY reason I had ANY idea of who the hell "Emerson Fittipaldi" was that I had been a long time Autosport subscriber and so knew he was an FF hotshoe. But I would never imagined that he was going to win! I remember think that Pedro Rodriguez really looked strong but Jacky Ickx was my pick if I recall.
Lots of people were asking who Fittipaldi was towards the end of the race! All I remember is that I was happy that I read Autosport....
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
#9
Posted 16 November 1999 - 10:59
I don't know if it was the greatest era in F1 racing. Looking at some racing footage of the 80's though, you can say it was certainly spectacular.
#10
Posted 16 November 1999 - 11:39
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
#11
Posted 16 November 1999 - 22:30
The point about Turbo era brings out another interesting topic - Is Bernie Ecclestone/Max Mosley combination the worst ever FIA ruler pairing or not? I have heard that the Balastarie (sp?) was horrifying in his blantant favoritism to all things French.
[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 11-16-1999).]
#12
Posted 16 November 1999 - 23:01
J-M Balestre confused being French with being Bill France (Sr. or Jr.) with the resulting chaos & confusion that followed; ironically MM & BE found that being in charge was harder than sniping at those in power. They too have once again proved the validity of dear ol' Lord Acton's maxim on power.
There has not been a great deal of serious study done on the administration of motor sports, mostly because it is a daunting subject. At the international level, the CSI pulled some real howlers for years. Few people realize how much turmoil there really was lurking beneath the surface in the 1970's before it finally exploded in the 1980's.
A good dissertation could be written on FOCA from its founding in 1964 to its role today.
It is often remarkable to note how much in racing happens in spite of, not because of the governing bodies.
In general, the various FIA motor sports bodies dealing with GP/F1 racing (CSI, FISA, F1A) have all struggled with how to handle all those unruly teams and drivers. Trying to balance safety, the economics, the technology, and the level of competition is a hopeless task at best and things are rarely at their best.
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
#13
Posted 17 November 1999 - 02:12
I could go on and on about Bernie (and Max), but the arguments are too familiar to everyone. Sometimes I'm sorry that dog in Las Vegas didn't finish the job. I thought it showed remarkable intelligence in attacking!
#14
Posted 17 November 1999 - 02:37
I'd say the 60's. I've seen enough Speedvision specials to really like that time period.
But the turbo era is not to be dismissed, and was quite exciting.
And I don't want to disregard the present either. Now, plenty is wrong, especially the neutered tracks, but I don't know (because I'm so young) if ever there has been such a titanic battle like the one we see between Ferrari and McLaren. Manufacturers have gone head to head since the beginning of the sport, but the battle being waged now, with tobacco companies and manufacturers throwing everything they've got behind these teams. It's really quite amazing.
So I'm not going to rule out any era. they're all different, but they're all good, in their own respect, I guess.
#15
Posted 17 November 1999 - 02:51
So I'm not going to rule out any era. they're all different, but they're all good, in their own respect, I guess.
Well said! That is the spirit!
BTW, your .02 is always good here.
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
#16
Posted 17 November 1999 - 03:07
You may be "new", but you see with a keen eye. Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can remind us old guys what's good about today!
By the way, there's no need for you to ever excuse your newness on the scene. We all started loving this stuff at some point. There's room for everyone and every point of view: the passion's the thing!!!
[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 11-17-1999).]
#17
Posted 17 November 1999 - 10:23
I love everything about that era (including the hairstyles ;)).
Most o my favourite drivers were from the '70s.
If only I had a time machine.....
#18
Posted 17 November 1999 - 19:07
My views about the meaning of race driving changed soon, mainly because of a person, called Stefan Bellof from Giessen, who, in a Formula 2 car, almost broke Regazzonis all time record on the old Nürburgring.
If you ask about my favorite decade, these first naive/innocent "kid" years as a racing fan lasting from 76 - 85 were very special and exciting.
In the period 85 - 91, Formula 1 did not have the same place in my life, no Stefan Bellof anymore, no Niki Lauda, no F1 on the Nürburgring, different friends/interests...
and it wasn't until a DTM race on the Nürburgring in 91, when the Ring speaker announced, that a certain Michael Schumacher, who I only heard of from his time driving a Sauber Mercedes C before, ended in 5th place in Monza in his first race in a Benneton, that I got more into Formula 1 again. I have seen races since that I don't want to miss, but I have also seen things that make me shake my head. Maybe that's why I have this glorified view of the late 70's / early 80's. It is very interesting to read Don Capps articles about the 82 season, because as a 10 year old I just didn't follow these "politics", I was just a kid who liked to watch races.
In the mid 80's I started to get involved in old cars, and eventually old racing cars and history. The fascination of old cars, old racing drivers, old tracks and all the "great decades that I missed" is still very big, but I can only find out about it by reading books, watching old films an pictures, and I became somewhat of a collector (even though I will never be a database like Don Capps et al.).
#19
Posted 18 November 1999 - 10:32
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#20
Posted 18 November 1999 - 11:02
The 70's interest me less, dunno why, although I love Gilles. And as for the 90's - well, I think it's not much of a decade, to be honest. Certainly not the second half, which had too few leading drivers, too few great races and too few... well, too few!
which leaves the 60's.... hrmmm... they say that those who remember the 60's haven't really lived it, no?
#21
Posted 18 November 1999 - 11:41
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Regards,
Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/
[This message has been edited by Dennis David (edited 11-18-1999).]
#22
Posted 19 November 1999 - 18:16
I would personally limit the analysis of F1 to the last 50 years. This is a common problem for several sports.
#23
Posted 19 November 1999 - 22:02
If you check out the non-championship races since 1950 in Forix, you will find a goodly number of races that were equal to those that were in the WDC series. If those were included in the GP/F1 story, it would actually present a better, more rounded story. To many of the contemporary racers of the early 50's and into the 60's & 70's, the WDC was not the Alpha & Omega of the sport. Many made their way by particpating in the other events.
The wins at Reims in 1952 and 1962 of Jean Behra and Bruce McLaren were great races and great wins, but don't show up in the "statistics." Yet, to be fair, these were definitely GP victories. There were many wonderful GP races that fell outside the 1935-39 Euro and the 1950-present World championships.
I tend to approach things from that viewpoint. Although it is simply a fact of life, there is much, much more to GP/F1 than the WDC. Remember this is a relatively recent development. Take a look at the 1961-1963 lists . That is why F2 and F3 were needed!
Don't forget that the Lotus 18 was used in FJ, F2, and F1 all in the same season! And with the adding of a few more tubes became the 19 for sports racing. Just thought I would say that...
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 11-19-1999).]
#24
Posted 22 November 1999 - 09:47
And i second Bira's thoughts on the 1990s; the early period had some good Prost/Senna, Mansell/Senna stuff and Mansell's title run, but the recent years seem to be missing something although, interestingly, the title races have been very good in 1996-1999, better than any other form of racing over this period.
The 2000-2009 period has the potential to be interesting, provided that at least 3 or 4 manufacturers stay in the game with a serious committment.
#25
Posted 22 November 1999 - 11:48
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Regards,
Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/
#26
Posted 22 November 1999 - 12:22
#27
Posted 27 November 1999 - 07:36
Most of what I know is based on books, since my earliest memory of F1 is the White & Green Williams with Keke Rosberg A few keywords that spring to mind for each decade...
50's : All Fangio, all Alfa, all Ferrari...great age where the drivers were still heroes and the tracks primitive and long. Heavy machinery.
60's : The rise of Britain, the rule of Hill and Clark. Machines getting more delicate.
70's : all development, Lauda, Fittipaldi, Gilles, JPS Lotus. Technological revolution.
80's : Turbo, Renault, rise of Williams, Senna & Prost.
90's : technological re-revolution...motioning backwards in the struggle for motioning forwards for safety. Schumacher, Williams, all of a sudden Hakkinen.
Thinking of it, I'd rate them like this at the moment :
60's
80's
50's
70's
90's
Ofcourse there's the pre-war era, but frankly I feel I don't know enough about that to make a clear judgement... Nuvolari, Carrachiola, Wimille, Rosemeyer... magical names from a past long ago, which seems like a story of bravery and heroism much like the middle ages of autoracing or maybe even the viking era of autoracing.
Oh allright, I'm starting to get all nostalgic about a period in which even my mum and dad weren't born
#28
Posted 29 October 2009 - 14:53
While seeing the disadvantage of splitting in decades, I'll give it a try:
Most of what I know is based on books, since my earliest memory of F1 is the White & Green Williams with Keke Rosberg A few keywords that spring to mind for each decade...
50's : All Fangio, all Alfa, all Ferrari...great age where the drivers were still heroes and the tracks primitive and long. Heavy machinery.
60's : The rise of Britain, the rule of Hill and Clark. Machines getting more delicate.
70's : all development, Lauda, Fittipaldi, Gilles, JPS Lotus. Technological revolution.
80's : Turbo, Renault, rise of Williams, Senna & Prost.
90's : technological re-revolution...motioning backwards in the struggle for motioning forwards for safety. Schumacher, Williams, all of a sudden Hakkinen.
Thinking of it, I'd rate them like this at the moment :
60's
80's
50's
70's
90's
Ofcourse there's the pre-war era, but frankly I feel I don't know enough about that to make a clear judgement... Nuvolari, Carrachiola, Wimille, Rosemeyer... magical names from a past long ago, which seems like a story of bravery and heroism much like the middle ages of autoracing or maybe even the viking era of autoracing.
Oh allright, I'm starting to get all nostalgic about a period in which even my mum and dad weren't born
I started following F1 in 1959 but my favorite year was 1967 with 5 world champion and future champions on the grid.
#29
Posted 29 October 2009 - 17:26
I started following F1 in 1959 but my favorite year was 1967 with 5 world champion and future champions on the grid.
Wow. You just resuscitated a ten year old thread. Okay, I'll play. Although I wasn't born yet, I'll suggest:
1959-1968 - besides great drivers and rivalries, those ten years saw some of the biggest upsets and the most dramatic technological changes.
Don Capps mentioned the Lotus 18 which was a remarkable car - quickest in F1 (with Sterling Moss driving), it was perfect for Formula Junior too. Lotus was still a new force in 1960. (The Lotus 16 had been raced in 1959, but wasn't competitive.) Even more surprising was the Cooper of one year earlier which completely dominated because it was the only car in the grid with its engine behind the driver. Both the Cooper and Lotus 18 used Coventry Climax engines, which were at least a 25hp disadvantage. Then there's Brabham-Repco - talk about an underdog! A four year old production Buick engine block, hopped-up with cylinder heads by a small shop in Australia, powers Brabham to the championship. In 1959, teams could be competitive with DeDion rear suspension, wire-spoke wheels, and skinny treaded tires. By 1968, Formula One cars started getting wings.
#30
Posted 29 October 2009 - 20:26
#31
Posted 29 October 2009 - 21:15
The drivers were heroic - dignified, tough, mature and interesting.
Spectacular to watch: you could see the drivers at work.
Diversity: Silver streamlined Mercedes Benz - red Lancia D50s with side fuel tanks - tiny green BRMs (1955 1958) - rear engined Coopers...
Fewer races - every one is easily remembered allowing clearer memories of the highlights of the seasons.
Privateers - any one could have a go provided you were quick enough and had the money.
Money was probably as significant then as now but it wasn't so much in your face and this is possibly an indicator of what an old geezer I have become but I reckon that the current vulgarity wasn't there either.
It wasn't boring.
Then the 1500cc formula came along and the heart went out of it all.
Edited by sandy, 29 October 2009 - 21:16.
#32
Posted 30 October 2009 - 02:04
I have to say the sixties. It was during the time I became indoctrinated, there were enormous changes in the cars during that time and we went from 2.5 four-bangers (well, there was a V6) to tiddlers to fire-breathers too. Plain cars to wings, the front engined cars disappeared, the drivers were human and could be approached, all of that stuff.
Repco, by the way, were way more than 'a small shop in Australia'...
#33
Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:48
Why should this be the case? I don't think the quality of the cars and drivers and races from other eras were inferior, but I suspect that as the late 60's were my teenage years, the memories of that time remain sharper than later periods.
And I am a big GPL fan, so I can get a virtual fix of the period on my computer screen whenever I like!
Cheers
Steve
#34
Posted 30 October 2009 - 11:32
Then the 1500cc formula came along and the heart went out of it all.
I agree with you about your points for the 1950's, but why do you say that the heart went out of it all in the 1.5 ltr formula ?
I loved that period. Great cars, great drivers and some great racing.
Cheers,
Jop
#35
Posted 30 October 2009 - 13:18
Yo'll find very few who say "I first became interested in [such and such decade] but I think the [subsequent decade] was better". Apart from Jenks whose answer was "Now!", but he was known to be a non-conformist.
#36
Posted 30 October 2009 - 14:11
I think everybody's favourite era tends to be when they first took a serious interest and developed their enthusiasm or when they first took part; this tends to be late teens for the enthusiast and twenties for participants. Later we get bored, jaded, cynical about the goings-on, etc but are still hooked.
Yo'll find very few who say "I first became interested in [such and such decade] but I think the [subsequent decade] was better". Apart from Jenks whose answer was "Now!", but he was known to be a non-conformist.
My favourite period is definitely the '60's and you are right it is from 1961 that I first took a serious interest although pre-teens rather than late teens. It all started to go wrong in my opinion in 1968 when Chapman wheeled his Lotus out with Gold Leaf livery. I started participating in rallies in the '70's, although pre-Escort is very definately my favourite period. Curiously 1968 again. Not a good year 1968.
#37
Posted 30 October 2009 - 20:04
#38
Posted 01 November 2009 - 17:58