237 replies to this topic

[Paul Taylor]

Robert O'Brien? Who's he? Did he even exist?!

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
Robert O'Brien? Who's he? Did he even exist?!

I have a photo of Robert O'Brien, courtesy of Paul Frère. Would like to have post it on TNF, but has given up on trying to figure out how to post images. Consider me a fool with modern technology...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


I have a photo of Robert O'Brien, courtesy of Paul Frère. Would like to have post it on TNF, but has given up on trying to figure out how to post images. Consider me a fool with modern technology...

Send it to me and I'll post it for you. In view of John's speculation, it might be interesting to put it in front of our American friends ....

You have my email, I think.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by humphries
The mysterious Robert O'Brien might just be "Robert O'Brien".

There was speculation (here?) that O'Brien was a CIA agent and he had a nom de course. I would say that being a Grand Prix driver was hardly the right cover for someone wanting anonymity, but given that it has taken some sterling effort to discover Frank Dochnal 40 years on it does not seem so bad...

[humphries]

In which years was Robert O'Brien racing his Austin Healey? There was a Robert O'Brien racing in the Sixties in the U.S.A. If this was the F1 ( well, F2 actually ) Robert O'Brien I would be pleasantly surprised.

For the 1952 Belgian Grand Prix, even though those days were very diffrent from today, I would have thought that GP O'Brien would have needed an International licence. Any driver who had competed at Le Mans would have such. The seat in the Ecurie Belge Gordini was a last-minute
substitution.

John

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by humphries
In which years was Robert O'Brien racing his Austin Healey? There was a Robert O'Brien racing in the Sixties in the U.S.A. If this was the F1 ( well, F2 actually ) Robert O'Brien I would be pleasantly surprised.

Hang on - is Hangtown talking about O'Brien or Dochnal? His post doesn't make it clear ....

Originally posted by humphries
For the 1952 Belgian Grand Prix, even though those days were very diffrent from today, I would have thought that GP O'Brien would have needed an International licence. Any driver who had competed at Le Mans would have such. The seat in the Ecurie Belge Gordini was a last-minute
substitution.

John

But what about his other race at the Grenzlandring? Of course, that could be a different bloke, but apparently in the same car, after the bona fides of a Robert O'Brien in a Belgian Gordini had been established.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Send it to me and I'll post it for you. In view of John's speculation, it might be interesting to put it in front of our American friends ....

You have my email, I think.

Richard

Please give me some time over the weekend to find the photo. I am sure I shall have it ready by Monday. Recall that the photo is of O'Brien pushing Paul Frère's car. Paul also made some comment on Robert and I shall also try to find this.

I asked Stirling Moss several years ago, about O'Brien. I think 'O'Brien competed at the Belgian GP in 1952, which was one of Stirling's first World Championship GP races (I am thinking from the top of my mind now, not having any records at hand to confirm it). Stirling nevertheless told me that he could not remember any driver with that name...

[Richard Jenkins]

Paul Frere knows/knew Robert O'Brien well enough to call him "Bob". He mentions him in "From Starting Grid to Chequered Flag"
The CIA thing came from German autograph collectors. But I haven't been able to fathom much else out, true or not, except that he is now dead. (I think ;) )

[humphries]

My suspicion that there is a link between the American 1952 Le Mans drivers, and their travelling companions, and Robert O'Brien has taken another twist. Pondering over the drivers I realised I knew little about the Cunningham driver George Rice and so returned to the Cunningham book by Batchelor and Bochroch, two reliable historians. I still don't know much about him except that he was a friend of Phil Walters. But then a read a bit about Miles Collier, the brother of Sam Collier who was killed on 31 December, 1950.

"Miles Collier had been forbidden by his mother to race again, but he could not - or would not - stay away from competition. Using assumed names, he raced at several Florida circuits, and was said to have entered sports car races overseas. After racing at the 1954 Sebring 12 Hours ( Miles had entered a Crosley-Bandini. driven - according to Bob Cumberford's Road & Trck report - by Brett Hannaway and "Marshall" ), Collier drove home across Florida in an open car in pouring rain and became ill. A few weeks later, April 1954, Miles Collier died of polio."

I know nothing about the mother of Miles but some of these matriarches were not to be crossed; the consequences could severely hurt the pocket. Also the drivers and friends who aided and abetted Miles must have felt a little ashamed at the deceptions and possibly kept the racing activities of Miles secret long after his death.

Possibly Miles Collier was Bob O'Brien.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by humphries
the brother of Sam Collier who was killed on 31 December, 1950.

Sam Collier died on September 23, 1950. I think your confusion stems from the December 31, 1950 date of the Sebring Six Hour, Sam Collier Memorial Grand Prix of Endurance.

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


I have a photo of Robert O'Brien, courtesy of Paul Frère. Would like to have post it on TNF, but has given up on trying to figure out how to post images. Consider me a fool with modern technology...

I can host it for you...PM me and I will give you my email address ;)

EDIT: Unless you already have a host Haven't been reading the thread, sorry

I have a picture of O'Brien in his Gordini, racing...if that's the one you have...I'll scan it and post it, but I'm sure people have seen it before or it may be wrong!

[Paul Taylor]

'Tis this!:

http://www.crasheram.../52_BelgianGP_O

[Mike Argetsinger]

And that is not - by any name - Miles Collier (see theory postulated by humphries above)!

[humphries]

Mike

Sorry about the date confusion and the photo suggests that the driver was of Bill Spear proportions!



Just a few questions then on this intriguing subject, and apologies if it has all been discussed before.

Is there any record of a Robert O'Brien racing in the U.S.A before or after the Belgian GP? My records are incomplete but fairly extensive and I cannot find any reference after a quick scan. Maybe he raced on the ovals?

Does anyone know under which names Miles Collier raced besides Marshall? And if Miles raced in Europe, where?

Would it be possible for a person to race in a World Championship Grand Prix without ever having driven in a race before? This I would doubt. Presumably an international licence would be required so how easily could one be acquired in those days? A Grand Prix on the old Spa-Francorchamps would be some debut!

[David McKinney]

He was persumably the O'Brien who was fourth in the Sebring 12hr earlier the same year, sharing a 2-litre Ferrari with someone called Kennedy

[Richard Jenkins]

Again, in the book, Frere refers to him as a "sportscar driver". Nothing more :

[humphries]

David

You're right. I looked through my SCCA "Sports Car" photocopies and I didn't copy their Sebring report as I already had details elsewhere. It would appear that O'Brien only did the big stuff!

What's more Bill Spear was sharing a Ferrari with Briggs Cunningham!

In my own scribbles I have the name Kennedy deleted and replaced by R.Cicurel. Must buy the Sebring history book and get the official facts. I have a Kennedy sharing a XK120 with a McDonald but it retired early. Possibly drivers switched cars. I wonder if the Sebring race entry forms have been retained?

I also wonder if Miles Collier was there somewhere and if so which name was he using.

Surely there must be a photo of O'Brien's face somewhere.

John

[Don Capps]

Sebring 1952

4th place: Robert O'Brien & Richard Cicurel
No. 57 Ferrari 166MM

[Mike Argetsinger]

I feel I am missing the point here. Why the interest in Robert O'Brien and why is he considered a mystery man? I note that on this thread it is speculated that he may have been someone else or even that he didn't exist at all! Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere, but I am curious to know what all the fuss is about.

In addition to the Sebring result as reported by Don above, O'Brien was 8th overall in the Seneca Cup at Watkins Glen in September 1951. He was driving a Jaguar XK-120.

I know any number of people who likely knew the man. But what is it you want to know? Sorry if I'm coming in late on this, but the answer isn't clear from this thread.

[humphries]

Mike

On this side of the pond none of us have seen a photograph of the driver, know his date of birth and possible death, or know of all his racing credentials. As one of the select few to participate in the world championship races many would like to know these things. Anaraks are like that. Over to you.

John

[Frank S]

Originally posted by humphries
Mike

Sorry about the date confusion and the photo suggests that the driver was of Bill Spear proportions!

The Orange Empire Trophy, Bill Spear, and Mr. Momo at March Air Force Base, November 1952 (or '53)


Tom Cardin photo© by permission

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by humphries
Mike

On this side of the pond none of us have seen a photograph of the driver, know his date of birth and possible death, or know of all his racing credentials. As one of the select few to participate in the world championship races many would like to know these things. Anaraks are like that. Over to you.

John

In addition, it is, as Richie mentioned above, alleged that he was a CIA agent. As I said, he apparently participated in two F2 races in 1952. The first was the Belgian GP on June 22nd, the second the Grenzlandringrennen on August 31st: the latter circuit seems like a very strange place for an American to race in 1952. In that race, he is also supposed to have driven the same car which he had handled at Spa: Gordini T15 c/n 0015-GC. Yet this car seems to have been very busy if Sheldon is to be believed ...

10 Aug Comminges GP (Claes) DNF
17 Aug Dutch GP (Frere) DNF
24 Aug La Baule GP (Claes) 8th
31 Aug Grenzlandringrennen (O'Brien) Result NK
7 Sep Italian GP (Claes) DNQ
14 Sep Modena GP (Claes) 10th

Six races in six weeks? A Gordini? Hmmm ....

[Mike Argetsinger]

I understand your interest - although I am curious as to why the CIA idea would come in to it. Is there some other evidence to suggest this?

I will be happy to make a few inquiries. What do you already know about him? Or should I ask - what don't you know, and what would you like me to try to find out?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
I understand your interest - although I am curious as to why the CIA idea would come in to it. Is there some other evidence to suggest this?

Honestly not sure - Richie mentioned German autograph hunters, which is the first time I've heard that. Most European references to him say he is "mysterious" or "unknown" - the CIA bit gets trotted out regularly, but how far back it goes I don't know.

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
I will be happy to make a few inquiries. What do you already know about him? Or should I ask - what don't you know, and what would you like me to try to find out?

I think almost the sum total of both knowledge and speculation is already on this thread!

Questions:

1 Who was he? Robert O'Brien or "Robert O'Brien"? If the latter, what was his real name?
2 Was the Robert O'Brien at Grenzlandring the same man as the one at Spa?
3 What happened to him after he raced at Grenzlandring?

Those will do for a start, but as you'll appreciate Mike, the answers might just provoke more questions!

[ensign14]

Tim Considine in his book American Grand Prix Racing has a bit more info..."In 1952 amateur sports car driver Robert O'Brien co-drove a Ferrari 166MM to 4th place in America;s first international sports car race, the 12 hours of Sebring. To broaden his racing experience, O'Brien toured Europe that season, towing his Frazer Nash behind a Cadillac. In June of that year O'Brien borrowed a Simca-Gordini from, Belgian driver Johnny Claes and somehow [organizers deciding to have something a little exotic? -e14] managed to get an entry to the Belgian GP."

Considine notes that O'Brien was the first American-born driver in a WC GP.

And that's about it. No pics. No date of birth/death. A bit more prosaic than a CIA agent...

[Richard Jenkins]

O'Brien is generally a mystery man anyway, but I'll tell you what I know about the CIA rumours.

O'Brien is alleged to have been an agent concentrating on the activities of East Germans who went outside their borders.
I had no idea about this at all until I made some enquiries about some of the real mysteries - no-one in Europe has EVER seen a picture of his face, no-one in Europe appears to have been successful in contacting him, no-one knows much more than what's above.
Whether the CIA thing is true, I really don't know, but the first I ever heard of it was from the German autograph hunters, who got their information from someone else. It is believed that his racing was a bit of fun during a quiet spell in the agent world & he had a nom de plume so the CIA didn't go haywire about one of their agents doing the motor racing malarkey.

I have a birth & death date for a Robert O'Brien, but as I put on the WATN site, is is on extremely rocky ground. What I do know is that O'Brien was not listed as a living driver for the GP Driver Ceremony at Indianapolis in 2000 - using ancestry, I have plumped for the most likely deceased Robert O'Brien, but I'm only 10% confident the dates I have are right.

I have no idea what is true, what isn't etc - the above is the sum total of everything I know about RO'B, bar Paul Frere appears to know of him.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by humphries
...if Miles (Collier) raced in Europe, where?...

Miles Collier did indeed race in Europe, driving his special-bodied MG - subsequently nicknamed 'Leonidas' (probably a mispelling of 'Leonides'???) - in the 1939 Le Mans 24-Hour race. He then returned to Le Mans with the Cunningham team in 1950.

DCN

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
... nicknamed 'Leonidas' (probably a mispelling of 'Leonides'???) ...

DCN

I should know better than raise this with the only living person to attempt to correct me on the use of an apostrophe but ... aren't both spellings acceptable? If anything, Leonidas is the more common, especially in Greek references.

Allen

[Doug Nye]

Ahahh! Clasical Greek education? Mine was coloured by exposure in my youth to the Alvis Leonides 9-cylinder radial aero engine, which has left me with the conviction that 'Leonides' should be spelled - right or wrong? - with two 'E's. I stand corrected - but unabashed. For me it will remain 'Leonides'.

DCN

[Allen Brown]

Not particularly classical education - more a classic case of pedantry.

But you should know better that to trust the classical Greek education likely in Holyhead Road, Coventry.

Allen

PS Born and bred in the West Midlands so I'm allowed to say such things.

PPS Is this a record for the furthest distance digressed from the original thread topic?

[Vitesse2]

/me sits back and waits for definitive answer from ensign14 ....

[ensign14]

OK, since you asked...

Sparta had 2 kings at any one time. In 480BC one of them was a chap called Leonidas. He led the famous 300 strong Spartan force that held up the Persian army - outnumbering his force by around 300 to 1 - at Thermopylae for 4 days before they were betrayed.

There were other Greek forces present, but everyone forgets about them as it spoils the poetic truth - and anyway it did not swell the Greek side by that much.

There was an oracle allegedly current saying that one of the 2 Spartan kings would have to die in battle to save Greece as a whole, and Leonidas was the one that braved it out.

There was a huge amount of politics around Leonidas' accession to 50% of the Spartan throne, especially involving the other king, but even more OT than this.

"Go, tell the Spartans, you who pass me by
Their soldiers, true to their orders, here lie." - Simonides' epitaph on the Thermopylae memorial, circa 479BC.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
PPS Is this a record for the furthest distance digressed from the original thread topic?

Nah ....

http://forums.atlasf...6047#post566047



Ensign14 - well done! Right on cue ...

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by ensign14
There were other Greek forces present, but everyone forgets about them as it spoils the poetic truth - and anyway it did not swell the Greek side by that much.

Yes, but - were they not the ones set to guard the 'secret' pass through the mountains by which Leonidas and his 300 were ultimately betrayed, and did they not run and hide when they saw the Persians advancing towards them?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Tim Murray

Yes, but - were they not the ones set to guard the 'secret' pass through the mountains by which Leonidas and his 300 were ultimately betrayed, and did they not run and hide when they saw the Persians advancing towards them?

The Phocians guarded the secret pass and they withdrew when they saw 100,000 Persians come for them. Leonidas sent most of the other forces away when he saw defeat was inevitable; the Thebans stayed, because losing Thermopyle would leave Thebes with no defence, as did some other Peloponnesians. But Leonidas was fighting a holding action - there was a better line of defence at Corinth, which never got used because of the Greek victory off Salamis.

[Hieronymus]

Chaps

I have sent the photo that I have of Robert O'Brien to Vitesse2, so I trust he will post it here soon. Apologies again for my lack of knowledge how to post images on TNF.

[Vitesse2]

Okay, here it is!

From the email from Hieronymus which accompanied the picture:
The following was written by Paul on the back of the photo. "Bob O'Brien pushing Johnny Claes' Simca-Gordini with Paul Frère at the wheel in the Dutch GP of 1952 at Zandvoort". I also discovered a letter that I had from Frère where he wrote the following of O'Brien, "Bob O'Brien must have driven Johnny Claes' Simca-Gordini 1500 in the 1952 Belgian GP. I did not speak to him on that occasion, but I remember him from the Dutch GP of the same year, when I drove the same car and Bob attended to it." I trust that this will interest a few people if you wish to post the photos with comments. I fully trust that the person on the photo is O'Brien. Paul Frère is a man that one can't argue with, since he has been around for so long...

[Hieronymus]

Thanks Richard!

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by ensign14
The Phocians guarded the secret pass and they withdrew when they saw 100,000 Persians come for them. Leonidas sent most of the other forces away when he saw defeat was inevitable; the Thebans stayed, because losing Thermopyle would leave Thebes with no defence, as did some other Peloponnesians. But Leonidas was fighting a holding action - there was a better line of defence at Corinth, which never got used because of the Greek victory off Salamis.

You're quite right:

(from Herodotus)

222. So the allies, when Leonidas ordered them to retire, obeyed him and forthwith departed. Only the Thespians and the Thebans remained with the Spartans; and of these the Thebans were kept back by Leonidas very much against their will. The Thespians, on the contrary, stayed entirely of their own accord, refusing to retreat, and declaring that they would not forsake Leonidas and his followers. So they abode with the Spartans, and died with them. Their leader was Demophilus, the son of Diadromes.

I should know better than to believe what I see in TV docu-dramas

[Allen Brown]

Richard

Could you post a zoomed scan of Mr O'Brien's face. That could help jog some memories.

Mike - do you have access to SCCA membership records from this period or weren't they retained?

Allen

[ensign14]

of these the Thebans were kept back by Leonidas very much against their will...

This was possibly a calumny (H had pro-Spartan sources, possibly including the grandson of the Spartan king Pausanias, who was kicked out by Leonidas' father Kleomenes) and the Thebans very much wanted to defend Thermopylae, but the Greeks preferred to fall back, so the Thebans were a little bit annoyed as their city was sacrificed for the Greater Good.

Later Themistokles of Athens had one hell of a job to persuade the Greeks to fight at Salamis rather than retreat to the Peloponnese en masse - he threatened to take the huge Athenian fleet over to Italy.

Theban rancour lasted over a century, until they kicked Spartan ass at Mantinea.

Perhaps the Colliers had a Classical education; Leonidas is very much a paragon of Duty over Self in ancient Greek writing.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Richard

Could you post a zoomed scan of Mr O'Brien's face. That could help jog some memories.

Mike - do you have access to SCCA membership records from this period or weren't they retained?

Allen

Up until some point about early 1951 or so, each issue of Sports Car carried the name, address, and often the car(s) of new SCCA members. Not only fascinating reading, but an interesting glimpse into the shape and form of the SCCA of the time.

As for the entire Leonidas/Leonides sidebar which is spinning out of control, I have exercised considerable restraint and have exercised a greater strength of character than I believed possible to keep from hopping into the fray as much I would dearly like to -- it seems few can be bothered with such things as really old wars these days..... :

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Richard

Mike - do you have access to SCCA membership records from this period or weren't they retained?

Allen

Allen - I don't have access to those records. However, today I consulted (over the telephone to the IMRRC - Bill Green did the looking!) the program for the 1951 Watkins Glen Grand Prix. I had previously found that O'Brien finished 8th thatday in the Seneca Cup - a preliminary race - in an XK-120.

O'Brien is not listed in the program because he was a late entry. Bill is searching the actual entry forms for the race to see if any further identifying data is contained therein. Bill will be away until Wednesday and won't be able to get back to me with the results of his search until then. With any luck they may provide a clue!

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Don Capps
As for the entire Leonidas/Leonides sidebar which is spinning out of control, I have exercised considerable restraint and have exercised a greater strength of character than I believed possible to keep from hopping into the fray as much I would dearly like to -- it seems few can be bothered with such things as really old wars these days..... :

Perhaps I should apologise to Doncappsides of Racenutsia for my original misapprehension concerning Leonidas'/Leonides' probable Anglicised personal spelling, and also to the other studencia of mythologia here present who continually expend one's educational horizons in so effective - and fascinating - a manner. All part of the TNF character and grain. Don't fret too much DCR...frayus hoppus (mixing my classics) old chap...

Douglides Thrackritudinae

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Perhaps I should apologise to Doncappsides of Racenutsia for my original misapprehension concerning Leonidas'/Leonides' probable Anglicised personal spelling, and also to the other studencia of mythologia here present who continually expend one's educational horizons in so effective - and fascinating - a manner. All part of the TNF character and grain. Don't fret too much DCR...frayus hoppus (mixing my classics) old chap...

Douglides Thrackritudinae

Journalists' standards are clearly declining

Come to think of it, it might have been deliberate.

[Doug Nye]

Oh, for ph---- - by the sacred whiskers of the Samothracidae, Douglides myopica is the problem....

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Richard

Could you post a zoomed scan of Mr O'Brien's face. That could help jog some memories.

Allen

Sorry, Allen. I gave it a try, but the original JPEG is so grainy that it doesn't really help to zoom it: you lose a lot of detail and sharpening the image seems to make it worse! I suppose the best solution would be a BMP scan ....

[Kuwashima]

Wow! I am very proud of how hopelessly far off topic this thread drifted. Could it be that TNF is doing our research for us on Mr. O'Brien? Thank you and please continue...

HangtownHealey, could you provide us with more info on these sportscar races you have Dochnal down as having competed? If possible, a list of the races, dates, his results, perhaps? We would be very keen to include these in his profile on our site.

Cheers.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Through the fine efforts of Bill Green at the International Motor Racing Research Center at Watkins Glen (IMRRC), we can add a few pieces to the Robert O'Brien story. Thank you, Bill!

Most of what Bill has found has been covered in one or more posts above, and I won't bother to repeat those known facts. O'Brien first joined the SCCA in 1951. In addition to the race at Watkins Glen in September, he also raced his XK-120 at Palm Beach Shores in December. The Ferrari he co-drove to 4th place at Sebring in 1952 was leased for the occasion from Bill Spear. During that period he is variously listed as residing in Nassau, New York and/or Tearteairk, New Jersey. I do not find such a town in New Jersey listed in the Rand McNally Atlas - but perhaps someone with local knowledge of the area may assist here. So far we have found no record of him racing in the U.S. after 1952.

[scags]

Mike, there are only 11 towns begining with the letter "T" in NJ, and nothing is even close. It could be Teaneck, if you mixed in a bunch of random letters!