104 replies to this topic

[Hieronymus]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
If none of the 1906 GP cars still exist, I wonder what the oldest surviving GP car ( or Pre-GP for that matter ) is, where it is can it be seen publically ? By this I mean genuine original cars , not recreations , something unmolested in the form it raced in with history

The Darracq of Wagner (see my photo) is apparently the only surviving car of the 1906 race. It belongs to Anne Thomson, a New Zealander.

The 1906 GP was held with a budget of 100 000 francs (about 327 000 Euros).

[robert dick]

Degrais :
If the 1901 Mercedes driver Degrais was the same man as the 1908 Germain driver Degrais, the first name was Henri.
According to contemporary photos, I would say it was the same man.

= = = =

Quote

Originally posted by Racing Lines
I haven't seen a picture of him racing with such a mask...

Of course le chauffeur masqué Pierry wore his fetish goggles when he took the wheel of the Brasier.

[humphries]

Robert

Yes, I would think Degrais was the former Mercedes driver and therefore Henri.

One or two of the other drivers' names have appeared in earlier races. Michel drove an Opel at the Bahnrennen des Frankfurter (27/08/1905) and the abbreviation Ch. was used. In Germany I think this signified Christian but of course Michel could be French and Ch. may mean Charles.

In Italy the driver Marieaux in the 1905 Coppa Florio had the initial G. So it could be Georges, or Gaston, or Gilles, or Gerard etc, etc. But it is a lead.

There was a Darracq driver in 1903 called Marc-Phillippe Villemain who may be the Villemain in the Grands Prix.

A real long shot is Robin. There was a Jude Robin at the fist Le Mans 24 Hours in 1923; a member of the Rolland-Pilain team. However a Robin appears as early as 1900 in entry lists so this Jude could be a son, if there is any connection whatsoever!

The driver Barriaux was fairly active over a long period and it seems odd his name or initial have not surfaced somewhere. An aside; Barriaux was entered in the GP des Voiturettes, 1908, by Edmond Gentil. Could this be Captaine Gentil aka "De La Touloubre"?

As for Landon, I think I have seen the name Henri but cannot think where. As for Marius Barriaux I cannot find or remember any link. Unfortunately the initial M. could just mean monsieur.

John

[Rob G]

Quote

Originally posted by humphries
As for Landon, I think I have seen the name Henri but cannot think where. As for Marius Barriaux I cannot find or remember any link. Unfortunately the initial M. could just mean monsieur.

Both of those names are found in the Black Book Addendum.

[humphries]

Rob

True the names do appear in the addendum but where were they obtained from? I would like to see the Barriaux's first name in a contemporary report, not that those reports are always 100% accurate! The name may have appeared in a hillclimb or sprint report but not one, unfortunately, that I have on record. The names may have been in a newspaper report, I suppose, but again not in any I have.

Sometimes retired racing drivers, years later, served on organising committees and the like.

John

[Doug Nye]

Misreading of 'M.' for a forename initial is, sadly, an Anglo-Saxon failing - the contemporary Gallic press used it for 'Monsieur' as standard, often indicating an amateur gentleman player, as opposed to a blue-overalled professional workie. 'Marius' for Barriaux's surname smacks of somebody recalling the name Marius Barbaroux and simply stringing the two together by knee-jerk half-memory...the kind of failing I have consistently demonstrated during my years of scribbling about all this stuff. It just happens sub-consciously...and on one's unlucky days it is often flat wrong.

DCN

[Leif Snellman]

Thanks for pics, text and video!

Oh, if all races would be so well documented!

[Antoine Pilette]

Now, where could I rent a time-machine please?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette
Now, where could I rent a time-machine please?

This is it - TNF - Antoine.

[Milan Fistonic]

Here's another shot of the Darracq that I took at Ruapuna earlier this year.

[robert dick]

Opel driver Michel :
first name was Christian - he was German.

[Racing Lines]

Quote

copyright nwt ltd.

"Szisz at 90mph" is it says on the back

Incredible !!!!!!!!!


I was dreaming of that picture for so long !!!!!


and what ?????? … this picture exists ?!?!?!?!?!??!!!!!!!

Where did you find it ?


I would have been more than happy to get it in my book !
But I’m used to this kind of frustration. Imagine : the day after my deadline was over I received an email sent by a guy from Le Mans explaining that he owns about 40 originals and NEVER PUBLISHED pictures about the 1906 GP !!!!!
But too late is too late !! Unfortunately I can’t post them because of the copyright…


This picture is great because it’s one of the rare 1906 pictures I know which shows the speed.

And the details in the backgrounds are great too !

I admire the archictectural structure of the « timekeeping building » and the timing board.

According to « L’Auto « (28/06/06 edition), the guy in charge of painting the times on the board was so fed up with the heat that he resigned the second day ! Fortunately, another guy was found in extremis for the job ! (I think the resigning guy is maybe not the one we can see on that picture but the guy in charge of the big board in front of the official grandstand).

The caption of this picture « Szisz at 90 mph » looks very relevant because it was decided to time cars from the starting/finish line to a point located one kilometer further in order to get « the kilomètre lancé » speed. And Szisz was the fatstest at nearly 150 km/h (about 90 mph).

It looks that the time-keeping was made with a Mors machine (L’Auto 27/06/06 edition).

Q1 : Has anyone ever heard about such a company as a chronometer manufacturer ?
Q2 : Is this company the same as the car manufacturer ?


Another point :

Quote

At the 1903 Paris–Madrid race the Renault voiturettes advanced to 6.3-liter 30 hp engines. It could not be determined if Szisz was again riding mechanic with Louis or perhaps this time with Marcel or if he had missed that race entirely.

Hans, in your great review you look uncertain about Szisz’s involvement in the 1903 Paris-Madrid race. For me, it’s quite clear that he was a riding mechanic alongside Louis Renault in car # 3. it’s largely confirmed by different stories written by Gilbert Hatry (founder of the « Section d’histoire des usines Renault » now known as « Société d’histoire du groupe Renault»).

This picture looks explicit (I hope the size will be enough : i’m not comfortable with this kind of manipulation !)


This moment is a crucial one : Louis Renault is arriving to the Bordeaux time control and is informed of the accident of his brother Marcel (left with the white hat is Fernand Renault, the 3rd brother). After this dramatic moment, Louis Renault as a driver and Renault as a manufacturer gave up racing. Not for long, in 1905, Renault enters the Gordon Bennett Eliminatoires and Szisz (head of the test departement) is naturaly promoted racing driver.

[Antoine Pilette]

Quote

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
This is it - TNF - Antoine.

I imagine a group of TNFers time-traveling to 1906 and I'm pretty sure there would be at least one moaning" Nahhh... racing was better a decade ago"

[cosworth bdg]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH


...........As Basil Fawlty would say "It's called style "

........1906 a blue Renault takes the flag followed home by a red Fiat............fast forward 100 years to Canada late June 2006 and a blue Renault takes the win followed home by a red Fiat !

Yes it really is style, that only the EUROPEANS have............................

[robert dick]

Quote

Originally posted by Racing Lines

Is this company the same as the car manufacturer ?

The same company - which was founded by Louis and Émile Mors as "Société d'Électricité Mors" and initially located at 28, Rue de la Bienfaisance, Paris (Téléphones de tous systèmes -Transmetteurs et récepteurs Mors).

On January 22, 1898, the company was renamed "Société Anonyme d'Électricité et Automobiles Mors", and in 1907 the electricity and the motorcar branches were separated.

[cosworth bdg]

Quote

Originally posted by robert dick

The same company - which was founded by Louis and Émile Mors as "Société d'Électricité Mors" and initially located at 28, Rue de la Bienfaisance, Paris (Téléphones de tous systèmes -Transmetteurs et récepteurs Mors).

On January 22, 1898, the company was renamed "Société Anonyme d'Électricité et Automobiles Mors", and in 1907 the electricity and the motorcar branches were separated.

Thanks very much for the history lesson.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Racing Lines
...Hans, in your great review you look uncertain about Szisz’s involvement in the 1903 Paris-Madrid race. For me, it’s quite clear that he was a riding mechanic alongside Louis Renault in car # 3. it’s largely confirmed by different stories written by Gilbert Hatry (founder of the « Section d’histoire des usines Renault » now known as « Société d’histoire du groupe Renault»).

This picture looks explicit (I hope the size will be enough : i’m not comfortable with this kind of manipulation !)


This moment is a crucial one : Louis Renault is arriving to the Bordeaux time control and is informed of the accident of his brother Marcel (left with the white hat is Fernand Renault, the 3rd brother). After this dramatic moment, Louis Renault as a driver and Renault as a manufacturer gave up racing. Not for long, in 1905, Renault enters the Gordon Bennett Eliminatoires and Szisz (head of the test departement) is naturaly promoted racing driver.

caption: The monument for Marcel Renault, who perished last year at the Paris-Madrid Race.

[Tim Murray]

Quote

Originally posted by Antoine Pilette
I imagine a group of TNFers time-traveling to 1906 and I'm pretty sure there would be at least one moaning" Nahhh... racing was better a decade ago"

They would of course be echoing the thoughts of Charles Jarrott, as expressed in his 1906 book Ten Years of Motors and Motor Racing.

[Racing Lines]

Here are some comments or quotes published in french sources. Most of them are from contemporary press. I think they are interesting enough to be shared. That means translated, even if my english is far from perfect. Sorry for that.

About Szisz confidence before the race
« Do you remember, M. Lefèvre, that we met here three months ago ? I was kidding telling you that I will be the first to go down the « Belle Inutile » after lap 12. But, as you can see :I was bluffing without bluffing… the Minister has only just done congatulating me ! »
Ferenc Szisz in L’Auto 28/06/1906

M. Lefèvre was one of L’Auto reporters and « La belle Inutile » was the name of the descent just before the finish line (« La Belle Inutile" means : « the beautiful useless ». Pretty name, isn’t it ?)

About Szisz pace and strategy
First day : « At the beginning of the race, I pushed a little bit to put pressure on Lancia and because I felt that Baras was behind me. (…) I made my race without any stop due to a mechanical problem. Not a single problem ! I knew that my car was able to finish at the same pace. So, when I felt I was leading , I stoped pushing. If I had pushed, it could have consumed my Michelin tyres which were stunning. I changed my tyres every two laps as a precaution. I took this opportunity to refuel and fill the oil tank. So I could easily drive at the average speed of 108 km/h. It was the speed we planned before the start : M. Louis Renault told me to race at 58 minute per lap. And I raced at 57’30 per lap ! »
Ferenc Szisz in L’Express de la Sarthe 27/06/1906

Without any pressure, Szisz pace was much slower the second day : about 94 km/h. So overal average speed is 101 km/h with top speed at about 150 km/h.

About Szisz last minute problem
« I had an emotion at the end of lap 11, when I was overtaking a driver. My line was so large in the side of the road that a leaf of my spring broke in the front right suspension. »
Ferenc Szisz in L’Auto 28/06/1906

« I wanted Szsiz to change quickly his spring in front of the pit before the last lap. But he refused. He prefered going on carefully in order to stop in the forest, protected from the sun by the shadow of the trees. So he stopped there and reinforced the suspension during the last lap. »
Louis Renault in L’Auto 28/06/1906

About Szisz and Renault
« When I was hired by Renault Frères, I thought that I would not stay fo long in that company. The factory was made with planks and I thought that this company was not very serious. »
Ferenc Szisz in Les dossiers chronologiques Renault, Voulme 2 1906-1910 (by Gilbert Hatry and Claude Lemaitre, éditions Lafourcade 1978).

About how painful this GP was
As previously mentioned, Edmond (Renault) and Camille Jenatzy had to resign during the first day because of their eyes. They were not the only drivers to retire in a painful way : in lap 7, Teste went off in the Ardenay straight and his Panhard rolled over. The mechanic was OK but Teste stayed on the floor, conscious, but with a broken thighbone and two broken ribs.

About « Pierry, the masked motorist » (again !)
The classification published in Le Figaro (27/06/1906) mentioned Pierry and his real name « Pierre Huguet » in brackets. So, definitely, we can conclude that this pseudo was not for anonymity.
We can also conclude that he was not in Le Mans to do some sight-seeing because he was classified 9th and -most of all- he achieved the third fastest lap of the race : 52’34’’6. ! Only 9’’2 slower than Baras’s 52’25’’4 fastest lap and 28’’4 quicker than Szisz’s 53’03’’0 ! Good sport, old chap !

About the horse power
To go from the parc fermé were the cars where parked during the night to the starting line for the second day, the cars were pulled out by… a horse !

Some more details ?

[Tim Murray]

Quote

Originally posted by Racing Lines
Some more details ?

Yes please!

[Racing Lines]

Quote

About « Pierry, the masked motorist » (again !)
The classification published in Le Figaro (27/06/1906) mentioned Pierry and his real name « Pierre Huguet » in brackets. So, definitely, we can conclude that this pseudo was not for anonymity.
We can also conclude that he was not in Le Mans to do some sight-seeing because he was classified 9th and -most of all- he achieved the third fastest lap of the race : 52’34’’6. ! Only 9’’2 slower than Baras’s 52’25’’4 fastest lap and 28’’4 quicker than Szisz’s 53’03’’0 ! Good sport, old chap !

Sorry, I made a mistake. "Pierry, the masked motorist"'s fastest time was not 52'34"6 but 52'31"0 !!!!! Even better and second fastest time of the race !!!

Some more details maybe tomorow. I will try but I will be quite busy the next few days...

[robert dick]

Aldo Weill Schott in bronze by the sculptor Paolo Troubetzkoy :
http://www.scultura-...ges/image4.html

A pity that he left the road in lap 6. In view of his lap times, he was as fast as his teammates Lancia and Nazzaro.
Aldo Weill Schott (or Weill-Schott) was a banker, involved in his family's Weill-Schott Figli & C./Societa Bancaria Milanese.

[ensign14]

Quote

Originally posted by Racing Lines

About the horse power
To go from the parc fermé were the cars where parked during the night to the starting line for the second day, the cars were pulled out by… a horse !

There were 3 officials who had to stay awake all night to guard against any illegitimate tampering/fixing of the cars overnight, IIRC from TASO's book.

Troubetzkoy...that name is familiar... Any relation to Prince Igor?

[robert dick]

Quote

Originally posted by ensign14
Any relation to Prince Igor?

The sculptor Paolo (1866 - 1938) and the Ferrari/Gordini driver Igor Troubetzkoy (1912 - 1979) were related.
They were descendants of Yury Troubetzkoy (1668 - 1739).
Igor was a descendant of Yury's son Alexey (1700 - 1776, cousin of Tsar Peter I), and Paolo of Yury's son Dmitry (1724 - 1792).

http://genealogy.euw...a/trubets1.html

[Racing Lines]

Here are some more details about this first Grand Prix

About the Renault colour
Here is an advertisment from Michelin which shows the colour of the Renault.


(just click to enlarge)

Have a sympathetic look at the poor guys without detachable rim (under the word « amovible » ) who are trying to change their poor tyre while a driver supposed to be Szisz is passing in a triumphant manner !

About the Michelin detachable rim
Here are two pictures (taken in the Michelin museum) of such a rim and the different tools necessary to the tyre change, including the octogonal-headed crank which was used in three different ways : a. as a starting handle ; b. for the jack ; c. to screw and unscrew the eight nuts of the rim.



(just click to enlarge. copyright Alain Pernot)

Michelin says that it was the first time that such a polyvalent crank was used.
Q3 : Can we believe them on that point ?

About the controversial authorship of the detachable rim
Here is an interesting extract from L’Auto (26/06/1906 edition) published after the scruteenering.
« The bailiffs !!
The bailiffs are here ! It was a long time we didn’t hear about bailiffs, as it’s something usual during the « Salon de l’Automobile » (motorshow). But we got it, this good old bailiff ! He was there to establish (note/state/record ?) the use of detachable rims in the name of the detachable rim’ manufacturer Vinet. Nevertheless, in order not to prejudice the race, Vinet company didn’t order for seizure. »

About tyres (again)

Quote

Long before the event, the experts had agreed that the Grand Prix would be a tire race and that the winner would come from such car and driver, who would spend the least time with fitting new tires. The battle would be between Michelin, Dunlop, and Continental.

In his brilliant review, Hans is right talking about Michelin, Dunlop and Continental.
Nevertheless, a fourth tyre manufacturer was involved in that race : Bergougnan « Le Gaulois » .
The Gobron Brillié was the only car to use those tyres made in Clermont-Ferrand (like the Michelins !).
The interesting point (to my view, at least) is that Rigolly (at the wheel of the Gobron Brillié) was the only driver to cover the first day of the race with a single set of tyres. Considering the great number of punctures and tyre changes during that day, it looks like a significant performance !
Vive « Le Gaulois » !!! (sorry, I’m french…)

About the flowers
« The ACF Commission Sportive vehemently asks the spectators not to throw flowers to the competitors. A bunch of flowers thrown by the hand of a child becomes a bullet against a car at 130 km/h. So, « houras » if you want but no flowers. »
L’Auto (26/06/1906)

About the fastest laps
« Fastest laps » are one of the most significant way to understand a race. So, I think it’s appropriate to have a look to this record for the first Grand Prix ever.
My source is the Mathieson time-sheet. In this document, there are some differences compared to the time-sheet published in « La France automobile » ‘s extract posted by Doug at the start of this thread.

Driver / (Car) / fastest lap / (lap)
Paul Baras(Brasier) 52'25''4(1)
"Pierry"(Brasier) 52'31"0(2)
Arthur Duray(Lorraine-Dietrich) 52'32"2(1)
Ferenc Szisz(Renault) 53'03"0(1)
Dr Aldo Weillschott(Fiat) 53'08"4(2)
Henri Rougier(Lorraine-Dietrich) 53'16"6(9)
Vincenzo Lancia(Fiat) 53'42"4(1)
Jules Barillier(Brasier) 55'23"4(3)
Henri Tart(Panhard-Levassor)55'27"6(4)
Victor Hémery(Darracq) 55'38"4 (2)
George Heath(Panhard-Levassor) 55'39"6(1)
Georges Teste(Panhard-Levassor) 55'48"6(2)
Felice Nazzaro(Fiat) 55'58"8(4)
Louis Wagner(Darracq) 56'13"0(1)
Camille Jenatzy(Mercedes) 56'13"2(2)
Albert Clément(Bayard-Clément) 56'31"0(1)
Elliot Shepard(Hotchkiss) 57'00"8(4)
J Edmond(Renault) 57'32"4 (1)
Claude Richez(Renault) 57'57"6(8)
Vincenzo Florio(Mercedes) 58'35"0(2)
Louis-Emile Rigolly(Gobron-Brillié) 59'15"6(1)
Mariaux(Mercedes) 59'39"2(7)
Hubert Le Blon(Hotchkiss) 1:02'27"8(2)
A Vilemain(Bayard-Clément) 1:04'47"8(5)
Burton(Mercedes) 1:11'34"6(10)
Jacques Salleron(Hotchkiss) 1:19'17"0(2)
"de la Touloubre"(Bayard-Clément) 1:21'09"4(3)
Alessandro Cagno(Itala)1:23'22"0(1)
Baron Pierre De Caters (Itala) 1:59'09"6(1)

Easy to understand how good was the pace of Brasiers, Lorraine-Dietrichs, FIATs and Szisz. For De Caters, we have to specify that he completed only a single lap.


About the… slowest laps ( !!!!)
For sure, it will be considered by some of you as a stupid idea. Nevertheless, I think it’s quite interesting to have a look to slowest laps classification. It gives an insight of the difficulty faced by the competitors during this trial.

Driver / (car) / slowest lap / (lap)
Hubert Le Blon(Hotchkiss) 4:19'23"4(1)
Victor Hémery(Darracq) 2:54'31"6(7)
Henri Rougier(Lorraine-Dietrich) 2:43'48"0(10)
Louis-Emile Rigolly(Gobron-Brillié) 2:36'20"2(7)
Mariaux(Mercedes) 2:30'06"4(10)
J Edmond(Renault) 2:27'54"0(5
Alessandro Cagno(Itala) 2:26'23"6(2)
A Vilemain(Bayard-Clément) 2:17'30"6(1
Paul Baras(Brasier) 2:16'26"2(5)
"Pierry"(Brasier) 2:14'35"2(3)
Camille Jenatzy(Mercedes) 2:10'09''2(4)
Arthur Duray(Lorraine-Dietrich) 2:04'21"4(6)
Baron Pierre De Caters (Itala) 1:59'09"6(1)
"de la Touloubre"(Bayard-Clément) 1:52'58"6(2)
Georges Teste(Panhard-Levassor) 1:52'23"0(5)
Vincenzo Florio(Mercedes) 1:46'47"0(5)
Jules Barillier(Brasier) 1:45'20"6(4)
Jacques Salleron(Hotchkiss) 1:43'46"0(1)
Elliot Shepard(Hotchkiss) 1:41'37"4(7)
Burton(Mercedes) 1:34'20"8(12)
Vincenzo Lancia(Fiat) 1:34'20"4(2)
Dr Aldo Weillschott(Fiat) 1:31'55"6(3)
George Heath(Panhard-Levassor) 1:30'07"2(10)
Claude Richez(Renault) 1:28'51"8(7)
Albert Clément(Bayard-Clément) 1:18'35"6(9)
Felice Nazzaro(Fiat) 1:18'21"2(5)
Ferenc Szisz(Renault) 1:11'54"0(12)
Henri Tart(Panhard-Levassor) 1:04'06"8(1)
Louis Wagner(Darracq) 57'09"4(2)

The poor Le Blon deserves a special award for his obstinacy. He had a very difficult first lap : near St Calais he went off and damaged a wheel. During more than three hours he tried to fix it ! He finally succeded in covering the first lap in 4 hours and 19 minutes. In the same duration, Szisz had already covered about 4 lap and a half !!!
The poor Le Blon had to retire after lap 4 because of a wheel (the same one ?). Is it necessary to specify that, at that time, Szisz was resting for two hours ?

The poor Edmond deserves a « hero award ». After he stopped at the end of lap 3 with his eyes being burnt by the tar, he went on for a fourth lap. During 2 hours and a half he tried to go on at the wheel of his Renault in spite of an agonizing pain. After this lap, he had to retire.

The incredible "fast slowest lap" of wagner is due to the fact that he completed only two laps (the two fastests of the race).

About Clément-Bayard
Just a detail. Both Hans and Robert wrote « Clément-Bayard » but all the french contemporary sources wrote « Bayard-Clément », including the « La France automobile »’ extract posted by Doug at the start of this thread.
Here is an advertisement published in L'Auto (27/06/1906 edition). As you can see, there is no room for doubt. The bottom line ("Bayard A. Clément, constructeur, Levallois-Perret (Seine)") looks furiously like an official company name and not just a commercial brand for the products.


(just click to enlarge)

It looks like the real name of the company was changed later (in 1907, I think but i’m not able to check it now) to the well-known Clément-Bayard. This change seems to be due to the fact that the british importer started to produce its own cars under the name « Clément-Talbot » and it was considered as more convenient to have two similar names : « Clément-Bayard » for France and « Clément-Tablot » for UK.

It’s interesting to notice that Bayard is the name of a Knight from the Middle Age whose very famous slogan was « fearless, blameless ». Alphonse Clément thaught it was a good slogan for his cars and added the popular Bayard name to his own for naming his new company (when he retrieved from the merge with Gladiator and Humber in 1902).

About the time-keeping

Quote

The same company - which was founded by Louis and Émile Mors as "Société d'Électricité Mors" and initially located at 28, Rue de la Bienfaisance, Paris (Téléphones de tous systèmes -Transmetteurs et récepteurs Mors).

Thank you very much for those details, Robert.
Q4 : We can conclude that the mentioned Mors machine was probably a transmitter machine and not the make of the chronometer. Or do you think they made chronomoters, too ?

[robert dick]

Bayard-Clément/Clément-Bayard :

The notation "Clément-Bayard" was used for example in the magazine "La France Automobile", in 1903 and in 1904, in the chassis price list for the Salon (Le prix des chassis au Salon) and in the technical description of the cars for the 1904 French Bennett elimination/Circuit de l'Argonne.

So I think both notations may be used, Clément-Bayard and Bayard-Clément.

Strictly speeking, the car was a Bayard, without the addition of Clément, since in principle Bayard was a trademark. "La maison A. Clément, qui construit les automobiles Bayard, a présenté cette année au Salon une intéressante voiture..." and as footnote of the same article the manufacturer's address "Adolphe Clément, ingénieur-constructeur, Quai Michelet, Levallois-Perret (Seine)".
In the advertisements, Bayard-Clément was an abbreviation for "Automobiles Bayard - A. Clément, Constructeur".

[Hans Etzrodt]

In post 7 it reads as follows in this thread http://forums.autosp...?threadid=45713

Quote

Originally posted by robert dick
...Clément-Bayard: It was in 1904 that Adolphe Clément was allowed officially to add "Bayard" to his name - the chevallier Bayard was a famous middle age knight who defended a bridge against an entire british army. The reason was simply marketing strategy. Bayard sounded good. The sportsmen of the time called the cars either Clément-Bayard, Bayard-Clément or Bayard...

[robert dick]

Mors timing :

The magazine "Omnia" wrote that "le premier kilomètre a été chronométré au moyen (= the first kilometer was timed by means of) des appareils électriques Mors".
No description of the device.

Probably two timing wires were laid across the track, connected to an odometer - an "elctro-magnetic" hammer actuating a typewriter ribbon on four wheels, the first wheel for hours, the second one for minutes, the third one for seconds and the fourth one for fractions of a second.

[arttidesco]

Hans Etzrodt, on Jun 28 2006, 18:33, said:

To ensure that the Grand Prix would be the most important event in Europe, the ACF decided on a much longer race than the Gordon Bennett cup, the Circuit des Ardennes, the Vanderbuilt Cup race or the Brescia race. The Grand Prix went anti-clockwise over 12 laps of the fast 103.18 km triangular Sarthe circuit outside Le Mans, run over two days a total of 1,238.16 km. Life was so easy going in 1906 that the organizers, L’Automobile-Club de l’Ouest, could choose Tuesday, 26 and Wednesday, 27 June for their great event. New wooden roads bypassed the little towns of Saint Calais and Vibraye so that the cars could be driven at full speed.

Sources/References:
Beaulieu, Lord Montagu of, THE GORDON BENNETT RACES, London, 1963
Bellu, Serge, BLUE BLOOD, London 1979
Bently, John, Le Mans (in Automobile Quarterly, Vol.2, No.1), Kutztown 1963
Boddy, William, The History of Motor Racing, New York 1977, pg 60
Bradley, W.F., TARGA FLORIO, London 1955, pg 24
Cimarosti, Adriano, Autorennsport, Bern 1979
Considine, Tim, American GRAND PRIX Racing, Osceola,1997
Court, William, Power and Glory, London 1966
Flower, Raymond, MOTOR SPORTS, New York 1975, pg 57 (Szisz)
Georgano, G.N., The Complete Encyclpopedia of MOTORCARS 1895 to the Present, London 1970
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Helck, Peter, The Checkered Flag, New York 1961, pg.66, 119, 120
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Higham, Peter, The Guinness guide to International MOTOR RACING, Osceola, WIS, 1995, pg.535
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Wondering if anyone can help me to definitively solve the puzzle over the route of the 1906 French GP.

Somewhere in the mid eighties I graciously received a copy of Jeffry Daniels 'Motor Sports, The great cars, the great drivers and great races'. The title says it all 'great' :-)

Apart from some nice big colour pictures the one thing this book did add to my knowledge was some maps of various events including a map for the 1906 French GP course a clockwise triange along parts of the N23, D1 and N157, see below.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I followed this route in 1988 in my trusty pea green Volvo 244 DL during the day off Friday at Le Mans.

A couple of weeks ago I happened on this youtube clip of the 1906 French GP and was surprised by two things,

First the map see below shows the circuit being run anticlockwise.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And second there appears to be a hefty westerly detour through the Vibraye Forest which uses the D 302 and an, to this day still, unnamed track back to the D1.

See detail below.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The argument for the track running anti clockwise, is backed up by Hans and there is a hint that there may have been a detour through the Vibraye Forest, in his comments above.

So I would now like to clarify three points, first can anyone definitively tell me if the 1906 French GP ran clockwise or anti clockwise ?

Did the 1906 circuit make a detour from the D1 into the Vibraye Forest ?

And finally does anyone know if there were any other races held on the 1906 French GP track, since it would appear the organisers went to some considerable lengths and expense to lay down boarded tracks to bypass some of the villages on the circuit ?

Thanking you in anticipation.

[speedman13]

arttidesco, on Jul 8 2010, 14:07, said:

Wondering if anyone can help me to definitively solve the puzzle over the route of the 1906 French GP.

Somewhere in the mid eighties I graciously received a copy of Jeffry Daniels 'Motor Sports, The great cars, the great drivers and great races'. The title says it all 'great' :-)

Apart from some nice big colour pictures the one thing this book did add to my knowledge was some maps of various events including a map for the 1906 French GP course a clockwise triange along parts of the N23, D1 and N157, see below.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I followed this route in 1988 in my trusty pea green Volvo 244 DL during the day off Friday at Le Mans.

A couple of weeks ago I happened on this youtube clip of the 1906 French GP and was surprised by two things,

First the map see below shows the circuit being run anticlockwise.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And second there appears to be a hefty westerly detour through the Vibraye Forest which uses the D 302 and an, to this day still, unnamed track back to the D1.

See detail below.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The argument for the track running anti clockwise, is backed up by Hans and there is a hint that there may have been a detour through the Vibraye Forest, in his comments above.

So I would now like to clarify three points, first can anyone definitively tell me if the 1906 French GP ran clockwise or anti clockwise ?

Did the 1906 circuit make a detour from the D1 into the Vibraye Forest ?

And finally does anyone know if there were any other races held on the 1906 French GP track, since it would appear the organisers went to some considerable lengths and expense to lay down boarded tracks to bypass some of the villages on the circuit ?

Thanking you in anticipation.

It was definately run anti-clockwise.
The detour was to bypass the village of Vibraye.
I do not think the circuit was ever used again.

[arttidesco]

Dang ! Oh well another excuse to go back to Le Mans for the first time since 1992 :-)

Thanks Speedman13 :-)

[LittleChris]

St Calais ws also simlarly bypassed using wooden boards I believe. I drove the St Calais - La Ferte Bernard leg myself a couple of years ago, probably took as long to just drive that bit as it took the heroes of 1906 to do a full lap !!

[arttidesco]

LittleChris, on Jul 9 2010, 22:34, said:

St Calais ws also simlarly bypassed using wooden boards I believe. I drove the St Calais - La Ferte Bernard leg myself a couple of years ago, probably took as long to just drive that bit as it took the heroes of 1906 to do a full lap !!

At least you were driving it the right way

[tartle]

About the horse power
To go from the parc fermé were the cars where parked during the night to the starting line for the second day, the cars were pulled out by… a horse !

Some more details ?
[/quote]
Just found this thread.. I am actually doing historical aero research on Maurice Egerton who raced with Rolls in Ireland before aeroplanes diverted them... anyway I am cataloguing the aero and decided to do motor pics he left in his Mansion when he died and left his Tatton Park estate to National Trust. The Auvergne Auto Club tell me there are pics of the GP 1906, one pic shows the horse pulling an unidentified car onto the start line. Photos positively identified so far are
10A George Heath – Panhard 130 hp
13C “De La Touloubre” in a Clement-Bayard (the pit sign in background is ‘Bayard Clement’)
6 A Jenatzy and Alexander Mercedes 120 hp
4B Louis Wagner – Darracq 120 hp
4A Victor Hemmery Darracq 120 hp
3A Ferenc Szisz Renault
There are 3 to 4 that haven't got clues to help me.. either similar to above that had numbers visible or are beyond my pitiful knowledge! I can put them up under the NT copyright on Flickr if people are (a) interested and (b) might be able to help with identity and car descriptions for the album. At least I know more about the aero side.. there are 190 pics to go at there though!

[arttidesco]

tartle, on Aug 4 2010, 14:05, said:

About the horse power

There are 3 to 4 that haven't got clues to help me.. either similar to above that had numbers visible or are beyond my pitiful knowledge! I can put them up under the NT copyright on Flickr if people are (a) interested and (b) might be able to help with identity and car descriptions for the album. At least I know more about the aero side.. there are 190 pics to go at there though!

Wouldn't it be fab to see Bernie organise a parade of todays F1 cars being pulled to the grid by horse ?

Not sure I can help with 1D of vehicles from 1906 but I'd love to see the pix and I am sure plenty of TNF'ers would enjoy trying to identify them tartle

[Vitesse2]

Yep - go for it!

[tartle]

Vitesse2, on Aug 4 2010, 14:45, said:

Yep - go for it!

OK! The Flickr link is below and I have put up 5 where I do not know the car/driver and 1 where I think it is a Renault but not sure which one, except it isn't the same car as Ferenc Szisz's in the seventh photo..
HELP!
http://www.flickr.co...57624528677351/

Edited by tartle, 04 August 2010 - 17:50.

[Michael Ferner]

1st pic is a Gobron-Brillié.

[Michael Ferner]

4th a Darracq.

[Michael Ferner]

5th a (Richard-) Brasier.

[Michael Ferner]

6th a Renault.

[Michael Ferner]

I think #3 is a FIAT, but too tired to check.

[tartle]

Thanks Michael... it is great to have some people about to assist!

[Vitesse2]

1 The Gobron-Brillié has to be Rigolly's, as it was the only one in the race.

2 Arthur Duray's Lorraine-Dietrich.

3 Fiat.

4 Darracq.

5 Brasier.

6 Renault.

7 Renault - driver appears to be Szisz.

[tartle]

Vitesse2, on Aug 4 2010, 20:36, said:

1 The Gobron-Brillié has to be Rigolly's, as it was the only one in the race.

2 Arthur Duray's Lorraine-Dietrich.

3 Fiat.

4 Darracq.

5 Brasier.

6 Renault.

7 Renault - driver appears to be Szisz.

Speedy reply.... 7 is definitely Szizs's car.... and the 2nd photo... lines up as a L-Dietrich... seems I misread the 1 for a 7 .. so it is car number 1C.
Thanks for help!

Edited by tartle, 05 August 2010 - 00:04.

[Rob G]

Vitesse2, on Aug 4 2010, 16:36, said:

4 Darracq.

Specifically, Victor Hemery's.

[tartle]

I've updated the captions to reflect what you have responded with so far.. and over the next day or two will add the photos that I have identified myself... as they showed the car numbers!
Thanks!

[Vitesse2]

Rob G, on Aug 5 2010, 02:33, said:

Specifically, Victor Hemery's.

So it is! The A on the front was a bit of a clue wasn't it

[Rob G]

Vitesse2, on Aug 5 2010, 13:27, said:

So it is! The A on the front was a bit of a clue wasn't it

The faint 4-A on the fuel tank was the clue I found. I missed the clearer one on the front until after I posted.

[tartle]

Just found another unknown...uploaded as 9th in set... 0507082.
help?
http://www.flickr.co...157624528677351