203 replies to this topic

[De Weberis]

Looking at the Siemens telemetry displacing the acceleration and brake bars in MS' Ferrari I started to suspect about this.

Since last year I've found strange that everytime MS Ferrari was making a strong braking, after long straights, the acceleration bar was actioned in a very fast ratio.
I thought: what the hell MS was doing? Accelerating under heavy braking?
But the frequency was so fast, it couldn't be his foot doing that.

The trade of Rubens from Ferrari to Honda intrigued me even more.
How could Rubens face so much problems?
After all, brakes are similar for all teams.
Why was Honda's rear wheels locking under heavy braking zones?
There must be something extra in that Ferrari.

Then I concluded that it could only be an electronic device that syncronises the engine-brake system to aid/optimize the rear wheels under heavy braking, to achieve the full potential.

The stopping force of a F1 is the sum of two elements: brake disks and engine-brake.

The engine-brake is the inertial resistance force of the moving masses (pistons+cranksets+axels) and internal attrition inside the engine (pistons+block wall+joints).
Everybody that driver knows that when you lift the accelerator - without stepping in the clutch - makes the car to reduce it's speed.
There is a vectorial resistance that appears when the acceleration is not feeding the combustion chambers and power output is the minimal to allow the engine not to die.
As attrition is directly related to piston speeds, the higher the RPM drop, the higher engine-braking force

The brake disks are directly connected to the wheel axles and the attrition among pads and disks provide direct stopping force to the tires.

To achieve the full potential of the rear brakes the car/driver needs to modulate the trade off among both systems.
And also the trade off among the trail and heavy braking, to follow the ideal the attriction curve rate among the tires and track.

IMO, what the computer controlled braking device does is releasing an electronic instruction to the fly by wire accelerator and increase the engine RPM after every downshift, therefore, there would be a higher engine-brake force.
Usually, a driver just downshifts to use that effect.

Also, the computer syncronizes the sum of disk and engine brakes in order to optimize the braking and follow the ideal braking curve of tire and track attrition rate.
It would avoid the lock up of rear tires, providing stability in turn-in curves, conserving the tires and avoiding loss of time.

As I said, the frequency in the telemetry is so high that I don't believe it's MS doing it with his own foot.

If you look at this Hungaroring latest race, you will note the PDlR vs MS 2nd episode brodcasted with both cars acceleration/brake bar.
Even with MS on intermediate tires and PDlR with dry ones, MS was able to outbrake the McLaren.
How could it be possible without that gizmo?
Pedro was catching MS easily in the twist part bcs electronics doesn't help on lateral grip in the curves, but again if MS tires were inferior, Pedro should be overtaking MS at the end of the main straight.
Tallent alone is not the answer, IMO.

I know it's a bold and darring statement, and the explanation was not written good enough. Sorry
Other than that I have no explanation why the telemetry shown MS' car accelerating under heavy braking.
Let's have fun people.

[sejanus]

it's probably mark webbers fault.

[Hyatt]

isnt it just the automatic intermediate throttle application when downshifting? every F1 car does so, the only unique is that the grafic on the ferrari shows the position of the thottle-flap instead of the accelerator-pedal ... me thinks ...

.. and MS could outbreak Pedro because he was on the dry line ...

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by Hyatt
isnt it just the automatic intermediate throttle application when downshifting? every F1 car does so, the only unique is that the grafic on the ferrari shows the position of the thottle-flap instead of the accelerator-pedal ... me thinks ...

.. and MS could outbreak Pedro because he was on the dry line ...

After two years of observation, Ferrari is the only one that shows that effect.
An if it does show, it's made by electronics, which is illegal aid, isn't it?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Every car/engine has auto-blip on downshift, some more pronounced than others.

Every car/engine has engine braking, and all of it is driver adjustable.

Its not new, its not illegal.

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Every car/engine has auto-blip on downshift, some more pronounced than others.

Every car/engine has engine braking, and all of it is driver adjustable.

Its not new, its not illegal.

If you check the broadcast, you will note Pedro's car didn't show it.

[KABA]

Originally posted by De Weberis

After two years of observation, Ferrari is the only one that shows that effect.
An if it does show, it's made by electronics, which is illegal aid, isn't it?

Like mentioned in the subsequent post they all do it to some extent.


While your description is unnecessarily complicated, perhaps what they are trying to do is to achieve an effect a bit like a slipper clutch on a race bike. Some MotoGP teams use engine mapping to achieve the same effect as from a mechanical slipper clutch.
Even if this were the case it would be fully legal as it is simply engine mapping.

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by KABA
Even if this were the case it would be fully legal as it is simply engine mapping.

Yes, but a computer can't make the acceleration syncronization for the driver, otherwise it's an aid to maximize braking, tire conservation and turn in driveability.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by De Weberis

If you check the broadcast, you will note Pedro's car didn't show it.

It did, watch again.

And yes, its legal.

[mini696]

Traction control is legal. What you describe is on ly a form of traction control or downshift "blipping". Blipping the throttle on the downshift has always been more pronounced on the Ferrari.

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by sejanus
it's probably mark webbers fault.

Oh noes!!!!

[MikeTekRacing]

MS accelerates under braking to stabilize the car, He has been doing it for years. It has smth to do with decreasing the longitudinal weight transfer.

[ademm]

That illegal thing is MS himself. He run with the least downforce despite wet track. You send FIA a letter to ban him.

[HoldenRT]

Wow, a post that tries to make some sense and not trolling. Wow.

I agree with the possibility of it.

The people that don't agree have 2 reasons for why it's not true and they contradict each other. Is it MS that is doing these blips (highly unlikely) or the ECU? It can't be both.

Why is it more pronounced on the Ferrari then other cars?

I agree it's suspicious that MS had so much longtitudinal grip when braking on those bald tyres, but no lateral grip through the corners where Pedro could easily catch him.

A good comparison is Alonso at Monaco 05, a similar track with similar tyre condition and he had to be verrry careful not to lock the rears. It was what made him vulnerable to overtaking. He had no defense otherwise he would spin.

A good counter arguement is Felipe Massa's spin in Bahrain into turn 1 when he locked the rears almost took out Alonso. If there is a system in that Ferrari optimising rear braking it didn't work too well in that situation.

It's obviously hard to know anything for sure.

That illegal thing is MS himself. He run with the least downforce despite wet track.

Running the "least" downforce, would make it even harder for him to outbrake a McLaren running more wing and DRY tyres. You just helped DeWeberis make his point. Don't think that was your intention but I'm sure he appreciates it.

[derstatic]

It's not just MS but also Massa of course. It is a setting in the electronics of course but I doubt that it's illegal because it's been there as long as we've had these graphics. What would be really interesting is if the same thing happened to the 2005 Ferrari engined Sauber and if it happens to the 2006 Ferrari engined RBR. It makes perfect sense to have the engine blip on downshifts to smoothen out the change in engine braking as the engine revs up going down the gearbox. I believe it's called heel toe in race cars where you activate the clutch when shifting gears. It will add some stability and allow for a little more rearward brake bias, that can help turn the car into corners when trailbraking. We also know that MS is an expert in using throttle and brake together to balance the car so it all makes perfect sense, and is not illegal.

Just remember, didn't JV complain alot about the sauber brake system when joining them in 2005? Could that be the same thing as we see in the Ferrari? And the reason RB had such difficulties adjusting to the Honda brakes that hasn't got the system.

[hmradcliffe]

There is a link between the engine, traction control and braking with the Ferrari engine, its one of the reasons that Villeneuve had a lot of issues adapting to the Sauber last year and drove a lot better with the BMW this year. Its also the reason that Barichello struggled when he switched from Ferrari to Honda.

[random]

Yes, it's called "Engine Braking" and it's been in the sport for the past half dozen years.

As you suggest, it does use engine inertia to slow the car. Much the same as downshifting in a road car, except electronically controlled to modulate the speed reduction. And as you suggest, it most certainly IS a back-door method the teams have devised to give them a de facto anti-lock braking system, at least with the rear wheels.

The thing is, it's no secret and it's not just Ferrari, each of the larger teams have it. If you search through F1 news articles, you'll turn up many comments regarding "engine braking" from any number of drivers and team engineers. And if you search the Autosport image gallery for "wheel" you'll find dozens of high-res steering wheel images, almost all of them with a little knob for driver control of engine braking. AKA, rear-wheel ABS.

As for it being illegal. The FIA long ago gave up on trying to vett computer source code for illegal sub systems. Since ABS-style engine braking is really nothing more than a fancy bit of source code programmed into the existing ECU, it is exactly as difficult to monitor as traction and launch control previously were. Trying to find ilicit source code in large computer programs is needle in haystack stuff.

This is why the FIA have been pushing so stridently for a standardized ECU. A truly standardized ECU with unalterable computer code could do a lot to prevent (the most common forms) of illicit traction control, launch control, and engine-braking ABS. Of course, this is the FIA, so they've well and truly bungled the effort. You see, early reports indicate the FIA plan to allow the various teams write their own unique source code for this "standardized" ECU. Of course, the minute the teams get their hands on these boxes, they won't be "standard" very long.

I guess the FIA doesn't realize the "computer" isn't really the hardware, it's the software running on it. So Max has just put his boys back on the nearly impossible job of vetting source code to find those sneaky little self-modifying programs. Good luck with that.

[scarbs]

I think you are suggesting that a team uses the engine management system to prevent rear wheel locking up? This is well known and accepted by all teams.
Teams also have an over rev cut out to prevent the wheels over-accelleratign of they jump clear fo the track over bumps or kerbs. Teams also have anti-stall system to prevent messe dup starts and spins leading to a dead engine. Theres alot of clever stuff going on with Electronics that perhaps wouldnt be expected to be legal.

Most teams will use either the overrun setting or the throttle to speed up the engine up under braking if the engine revs too low, in some respects this is just an anti-stall system which is legitimate. But, as the engine, gearbox and wheels are all linked, it also serves to prevent the rear wheels locking.
Ferrari obviously have a very different strategy in their control system, Remember how JV struggled with the Sauber Ferrari under braking last year and as mentioned Rubens when moving away from Ferrari.
I dont think theres anything illegal going on here, Its just how ine teams systems have evolved around one drivers particular driving style. I'm, sure anyone else running Alonsos Diff settings would struggle.

Scarbs

[Lukin]

I wouldn't take those FIA graphics as gospel either.

[carbuff]

Saw the same graphic on the tv. The commentator (Steve Slater) said that Schumi modulates the throttle mid corner to get stability or something of that sort. Dont remember the exact statement.


IIRC, he's been doing this for years.

[carbonfibre]

Yep part of that is Michael's technique although the Ferrari helps these days.

Michael is always full throttle in a corner and corrects it with the brakes. Unlike Senna who was going on and off the throttle very rapidly in a corner

[RDM]

Thanks for the warning that this would be a load of paranoid, sensationalist bollocks with the capitalised "ILLEGAL" in the title....it helped let us all know the desperate angle your post would take from a mile off.

[Garagiste]

It makes the discs glow green too.

[eoin]

Originally posted by De Weberis

Even with MS on intermediate tires and PDlR with dry ones, MS was able to outbrake the McLaren.
How could it be possible without that gizmo?
Pedro was catching MS easily in the twist part bcs electronics doesn't help on lateral grip in the curves, but again if MS tires were inferior, Pedro should be overtaking MS at the end of the main straight.

Maybe he was braking off the dry line with dry tires?

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by HoldenRT
Wow, a post that tries to make some sense and not trolling. Wow.

I agree with the possibility of it.

The people that don't agree have 2 reasons for why it's not true and they contradict each other. Is it MS that is doing these blips (highly unlikely) or the ECU? It can't be both.

Why is it more pronounced on the Ferrari then other cars?

I agree it's suspicious that MS had so much longtitudinal grip when braking on those bald tyres, but no lateral grip through the corners where Pedro could easily catch him.

A good comparison is Alonso at Monaco 05, a similar track with similar tyre condition and he had to be verrry careful not to lock the rears. It was what made him vulnerable to overtaking. He had no defense otherwise he would spin.

A good counter arguement is Felipe Massa's spin in Bahrain into turn 1 when he locked the rears almost took out Alonso. If there is a system in that Ferrari optimising rear braking it didn't work too well in that situation.

It's obviously hard to know anything for sure.



Running the "least" downforce, would make it even harder for him to outbrake a McLaren running more wing and DRY tyres. You just helped DeWeberis make his point. Don't think that was your intention but I'm sure he appreciates it.

I think and hope that it was he was doing was making a joke. That Michael is too good and that he should be illegal. I mena without this specific fact, he has since 1993 been a force to be recon with, no matter how much the rules change.

[Randy Martin]

If all this is true why is Michael constantly adjusting his brake bias? Wouldn't a gizmo like you're describing do this for him?

[dgsg]

Do you prefer your hats be made of tin foil or aluminum!

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by Randy Martin
If all this is true why is Michael constantly adjusting his brake bias? Wouldn't a gizmo like you're describing do this for him?

cept in the rules the brake bias has to be an anolog knob located on the car that can only be adjust by the Driver.

[SirSaltire]

Originally posted by sejanus
it's probably mark webbers fault.

Its called engine mapping, and of course all teams use it. The only thing I am not sure about is whether the sensor feed for the graphic is taken from the pedal or the throttle input at the engine. I suspect the latter.

[ASD]

Originally posted by De Weberis
Looking at the Siemens telemetry .......

Perhaps you could offer your services to, say, Renault or McLaren. Aren't they continually looking for anything illegal on the Ferrari to complain about? (And no doubt it's mutual).

The fact they don't seem to have spotted this means you are way ahead of your time at spotting illegal devices.








Or alternatively that it's perfectly normal and legal.

[ferrariforlife]

Of course when ferrari crush their enemies they must be cheating oh wait maybe their haters are sore losers.

[Corners]

Why is everyone so paranoid about Ferrari ? Its so obviously the throttle blipping on downchange. What a complete fool throwing around such negative ****, its bad for the teams image because so many stupid people believe this tripe.

[FlashMaster]

It's just Schumacher

The best driver in the field with most skill

Watch this vid




TOO BAD Traction Control was introduced - makes driving much easier

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by FlashMaster
It's just Schumacher

The best driver in the field with most skill

Watch this vid




TOO BAD Traction Control was introduced - makes driving much easier

Funny, I was just going to post the same link, because I used it a couple of hours ago in a not so paranoic thread in another forum.
And I agree with you on TC.

[kar]

Reminds me of earlier in the year when several teams complained to the FIA that Ferrari had an automatic gearbox

Simply Michael was tearing off a visor strip with his right hand and upshifting the gears at the same time. FIA reported it's just that the Ferrari have a control mechanism that lets you up/downshift with either steering wheel paddle.

And again with the lollypops having mirros on them. Ferrari simply (with the seeming exception of 2005, but they were screwed by late rule changes there I think) seem to more often than the other teams innovate.

It's no surprise now that they either have tyre parity or advantage that they are so much faster than everyone else really.

[babbel]

anyone with pics of the green glowing brakediscs?

[Randy Martin]

Originally posted by Topweasel


cept in the rules the brake bias has to be an anolog knob located on the car that can only be adjust by the Driver.

That's what I'm saying. If he had an "electronic rear brake aid" why would he constantly be adjusting it manually?

[logic]

Originally posted by De Weberis
Ferrari's ILLEGAL electronic rear brake aid ???
... long post

I knew it!! whan are they disqualified?

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by babbel
anyone with pics of the green glowing brakediscs?

Yeah i will be disappointed if i won't see that.

Next up they will have those cool neon lights underneat the car and ofcourse the bouncing, but that might not be allowed because of the ban on active suspension.;)

[angst]

Originally posted by random


This is why the FIA have been pushing so stridently for a standardized ECU. A truly standardized ECU with unalterable computer code could do a lot to prevent (the most common forms) of illicit traction control, launch control, and engine-braking ABS. Of course, this is the FIA, so they've well and truly bungled the effort. You see, early reports indicate the FIA plan to allow the various teams write their own unique source code for this "standardized" ECU. Of course, the minute the teams get their hands on these boxes, they won't be "standard" very long.

I guess the FIA doesn't realize the "computer" isn't really the hardware, it's the software running on it. So Max has just put his boys back on the nearly impossible job of vetting source code to find those sneaky little self-modifying programs. Good luck with that.

I thought I was the only person who'd noticed this major abberation in the fight to rid F1 of electronic driver aids. Max has been harping on about it, goes as far as arranging a sole supplier for the ECU and then...... as you say. The ECU, and the regulations (2008 draft) do NOTHING to stop TC, LC or any other electronic driver aids. Another in a long line of Max and his (and/or his team's) technical incompetence.

So, come 2008 we're going to have three race engines, weight penalties for engine changes, long life gearboxes with, again, weight penalties for changes - this despite the FIA decrying additional weight as a safety factor . We're going to have an engine freeze, so the team with the best engine at the beginning of a three year period will retain that advantage for those three years, no chance of anybody catching up. Soon to have a bodywork freeze - so the team who has the best engine/aero will retain that advantage etc. etc.

We're going to have the CDG wing, which has been shown to induce even more turbulence to following cars than before, still with the raised front wing - so even less on track racing. And we'll still have TC, LC and all the other electronic 'tricks' that the teams can think of........ Jeez, I can't wait. Well done Max

Oh, and I nearly forgot. Tilke Fuji instead of Suzuka. Thanks Bernie AND Max.

[TailHappy]

Originally posted by babbel
anyone with pics of the green glowing brakediscs?

Frans has a copy.

[pio!pio!]

Don't believe all the 'data/telemetry' you see on the F1 broadcasts

The TV producers are not being fed trottle and brake telemtry out of all the car ECU's...what is going on is the camera on the car has a G sensor, and combining that data w/ the engine noise picked up by the camera, some computer software in the TV truck analyzes it and makes nice graphics for the production (such as, the throttle brake graphic, RPM graphic, gear, G load graphic)

so don't think just cuz only michael's graphic shows it blipping the throttle on downshift, that the other teams don't do it as well...

[angst]

Originally posted by pio!pio!
Don't believe all the 'data/telemetry' you see on the F1 broadcasts

The TV producers are not being fed trottle and brake telemtry out of all the car ECU's...what is going on is the camera on the car has a G sensor, and combining that data w/ the engine noise picked up by the camera, some computer software in the TV truck analyzes it and makes nice graphics for the production (such as, the throttle brake graphic, RPM graphic, gear, G load graphic)

so don't think just cuz only michael's graphic shows it blipping the throttle on downshift, that the other teams don't do it as well...

You know this for certain? So the software also picks up when the TC is kiscking in? And just from a G sensor it can monitor braking with or without throttle input? That's some ****ing amazing kit the TV companies have.

[KABA]

Originally posted by babbel
anyone with pics of the green glowing brakediscs?

Were they using Kalashnikov brake discs?

[Option1]

Originally posted by Garagiste
It makes the discs glow green too.

I thought the same thing.;)

Or to put it another way, "A wink's as good as a nod to a blind bat." (with apologies to Monty Python)

Neil

[JForce]

AFAIK the graphics run off sound analysis as much as anything else. They are not true feeds of what is going on.

I'd like to hear more on Alonso's diff settings Scarbs

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by angst


You know this for certain? So the software also picks up when the TC is kiscking in? And just from a G sensor it can monitor braking with or without throttle input? That's some ****ing amazing kit the TV companies have.

TC is easily recognizable by human ear, so why not by software.

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
MS accelerates under braking to stabilize the car, He has been doing it for years. It has smth to do with decreasing the longitudinal weight transfer.

So accelerates while under heavy braking?
It doesn't make sense to me.

[De Weberis]

Originally posted by random
Yes, it's called "Engine Braking" and it's been in the sport for the past half dozen years.

As you suggest, it does use engine inertia to slow the car. Much the same as downshifting in a road car, except electronically controlled to modulate the speed reduction. And as you suggest, it most certainly IS a back-door method the teams have devised to give them a de facto anti-lock braking system, at least with the rear wheels.

The thing is, it's no secret and it's not just Ferrari, each of the larger teams have it. If you search through F1 news articles, you'll turn up many comments regarding "engine braking" from any number of drivers and team engineers. And if you search the Autosport image gallery for "wheel" you'll find dozens of high-res steering wheel images, almost all of them with a little knob for driver control of engine braking. AKA, rear-wheel ABS.

As for it being illegal. The FIA long ago gave up on trying to vett computer source code for illegal sub systems. Since ABS-style engine braking is really nothing more than a fancy bit of source code programmed into the existing ECU, it is exactly as difficult to monitor as traction and launch control previously were. Trying to find ilicit source code in large computer programs is needle in haystack stuff.

This is why the FIA have been pushing so stridently for a standardized ECU. A truly standardized ECU with unalterable computer code could do a lot to prevent (the most common forms) of illicit traction control, launch control, and engine-braking ABS. Of course, this is the FIA, so they've well and truly bungled the effort. You see, early reports indicate the FIA plan to allow the various teams write their own unique source code for this "standardized" ECU. Of course, the minute the teams get their hands on these boxes, they won't be "standard" very long.

I guess the FIA doesn't realize the "computer" isn't really the hardware, it's the software running on it. So Max has just put his boys back on the nearly impossible job of vetting source code to find those sneaky little self-modifying programs. Good luck with that.

Nice post, thanks.

So it is illegal, isn't it?

[HP]

Originally posted by babbel
anyone with pics of the green glowing brakediscs?

Since they were done with Photoshop, I'm sure there will be some fellow be able to redo them. As funny as it was, the icing was that picture taken for manipulation was from a non championship winning Ferrari.