203 replies to this topic

[HP]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

Nice post, thanks.

So it is illegal, isn't it?

No, since TC, LC is allowed

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by Randy Martin
If all this is true why is Michael constantly adjusting his brake bias? Wouldn't a gizmo like you're describing do this for him?

You have just said.
It's the bias among the front and rear axles.
Not related directly to this case.

[HP]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

So accelerates while under heavy braking?
It doesn't make sense to me.

That's why MS is a WDC and you are not ;)

Is your car is front wheel driven? If you drive a rear wheel driven car, it should make sense to anyone trying to drive fast.

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by HP
No, since TC, LC is allowed

Braking aids are not permitted.

[HP]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

Braking aids are not permitted.

An engine will help with slowing a car when lifting the throttle, that is unavoidable.

So show me the rule where it says that modulating an engine under braking is not allowed and you might have a case..

[macoran]

Quote

Originally posted by HP


Is your car is front wheel driven?

Yes and an automatic .........the only way to corner fast when its snowing...left foot brake
and right foot on the floor.

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by HP
That;s why MS is a WDC and you are not ;)

Is your car is front wheel driven? If you drive a rear wheel driven car, it should make sense to anyone trying to drive fast.

Just bcs he is 7xWDC, it doesn't mean he has the coordination to make this feat lap after lap without missing one single time.
His car not even bounces.
Do you understand that that kind of oscilation among front and rear loads in every downshift is the last thing MS wants?
MS might do what you say in the last downshift to slide the rear end and point the front out of the curve for early full acceleration.
Not in the intermediate downshift, where he seeks the maximun stoping power.

To make such stable braking after long straights, it is necessary that the rear wheel have more stoping force then the front wheels.
But this braking ratio is not welcome in the twisted sections, where 50/50 is most desirable.

Therefore, the electronics engine-brake with ABS effect is a kind of optimization for brakes everywhere.
That's brilliant, I must say.

The accelerator activation is too fast to be human.
In your theory, if MS put his foot at the wrong oscilating (ondulatory) moment - brake/acceleration - he would be duplicating the wave, instead of nulifying it, as is desirable.
And probably spinning.

IMO, that's why Rubens kept locking Honda's rear wheels all the time in the beggin of the year.
Honda doesn't have this electronic aid.

[Jazza]

This isn’t illegal… unless it influences the aerodynamics ;)

[JForce]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

Just bcs he is 7xWDC, it doesn't mean he has the coordination to make this feat lap after lap without missing one single time.
His car not even bounces.
Do you understand that that kind of oscilation among front and rear loads in every downshift is the last thing MS wants?
MS might do what you say in the last downshift to slide the rear end and point the front out of the curve for early full acceleration.
Not in the intermediate downshift, where he seeks the maximun stoping power.

To make such stable braking after long straights, it is necessary that the rear wheel have more stoping force then the front wheels.
But this braking ratio is not welcome in the twisted sections, where 50/50 is most desirable.

Therefore, the electronics engine-brake with ABS effect is a kind of optimization for brakes everywhere.
That's brilliant, I must say.

The accelerator activation is too fast to be human.
In your theory, if MS put his foot at the wrong oscilating (ondulatory) moment - brake/acceleration - he would be duplicating the wave, instead of nulifying it, as is desirable.
And probably spinning.

IMO, that's why Rubens kept locking Honda's rear wheels all the time in the beggin of the year.
Honda doesn't have this electronic aid.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Michael uses the accelerator during braking. This is a well known fact, and he is not the only one.

So then, if the Ferrari has engine mapping which modulates this use of the throttle, what's the big deal?

It's all legal.

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by HP
So show me the rule where it says that modulating an engine under braking is not allowed and you might have a case..

Well if the effect desired is the ones explained in posts #1, 17 and 18, on purpose, it's illegal.
It's kind of having two kinds of brake sets.
One for twisted sectors and one for heavy braking after long straights, with different bias among the front and rear axles - beyond the modulation provided by the cockpit lever.

The 'twisted' system has a ration around 50/50 to not disequilibrate (sic) the car and the 'long straigh' system has the braking power predominant in the rear wheels for max braking with stability.

You know, even in a street car without ABS, if you brake very hard you have to watch the rear end of the car, making corrections with the steering or even lift the brakes to recover the rear end.

[JForce]

So then is all left-foot braking illegal? After all, any driver who uses a little bit of throttle is helping the braking, by making the car more stable.

We shall have to ban left foot braking

[Punisher6]

Wow! A poster here thinks he's found illegal stuff going on at Ferrari from the TV??!! You're killing me! Maybe I missed it, but is De Weberis Franz? What else can you tell from the TV, could you see that Kubica was underweight?

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by Punisher6
Wow! A poster here thinks he's found illegal stuff going on at Ferrari from the TV??!! You're killing me! Maybe I missed it, but is De Weberis Franz? What else can you tell from the TV, could you see that Kubica was underweight?

I see you've finally found your real back-up driver.
It's Webber.

You're gonna pay for this, hermano.

[Punisher6]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

I see you've finally found your real back-up driver.
It's Webber.

You're gonna pay for this, hermano.

Has the FIA called you yet? I hear they are looking into the whole Ferrari thing. I believe there may be some serious penalties and points taken away.

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by Punisher6


Has the FIA called you yet? I hear they are looking into the whole Ferrari thing. I believe there may be some serious penalties and points taken away.

Yes, Mr. Freeshooter.
Now that you don't have a representative in F1 you don't have vulnerable points anymore, right?
Keep shooting at will.

[Punisher6]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

Yes, Mr. Freeshooter.
Now that you don't have a representative in F1 you don't have vulnerable points anymore, right?
Keep shooting at will.

Yeah, it is kinda cool!

So do you support a driver or just hate on Webber?

Are you Franz? He had a thing for Lions too, if I remember correctly. Do you hate MS and love Joss the Toss?

[Punisher6]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

Now that you don't have a representative in F1 you don't have vulnerable points anymore, right?

You can rip on Rosberg. I do, when Webber and Nico took the stage at the USGP Trackside Live SPEED show there was a delay after they introduced Webber and I yelled " Aren't you soing to introduce his little sister?" I say " that chick looks like a guy" and "that's the fastest chick in F1" It's all in fun though

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by Punisher6


You can rip on Rosberg. I do, when Webber and Nico took the stage at the USGP Trackside Live SPEED show there was a delay after they introduced Webber and I yelled " Aren't you soing to introduce his little sister?" I say " that chick looks like a guy" and "that's the fastest chick in F1" It's all in fun though

You're mean...

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by Punisher6


Yeah, it is kinda cool!

So do you support a driver or just hate on Webber?

Are you Franz? He had a thing for Lions too, if I remember correctly. Do you hate MS and love Joss the Toss?

Are you new in the forum

I'm revenging Justin Wilson, that was a victim of Webber cheap tricks.
I despise injustice.

And I support M$, you can payback me on him.

Lion?
You should trade the Speedchannel by the Dyscovery sometimes.

[sejanus]

why do you feel justin had injustice?

[Punisher6]

Quote

Originally posted by sejanus
why do you feel justin had injustice?

Yeah, what'd Webber do to him?

Yeah, I'm not real good with wild life, lion, tiger, cheetah, whatever....

Maybe I should shove a stick up my ass about Kimi, he drove JPM out of F1 with lies and stuff

[Zoe]

Quote

Originally posted by JForce
So then is all left-foot braking illegal? After all, any driver who uses a little bit of throttle is helping the braking, by making the car more stable.

We shall have to ban left foot braking

Rubens would be happy

Zoe

[MikeTekRacing]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

So accelerates while under heavy braking?
It doesn't make sense to me.

neither to me at first, but heck, I don't question Ronaldihnho for the way he uses the ball, neither Schumacher for the way he uses the brake/throttle.
i guess if he does it, it suits him

[Dragonfly]

Engine blipping while braking is a way to prevent rear wheel locking since the torque goes to them. And is used in racing from gokarts to F1.
If the author is serious in his assertions, he/she should go to see the doctor.

[Fortymark]

Quote

Originally posted by Punisher6
Wow! A poster here thinks he's found illegal stuff going on at Ferrari from the TV??!! You're killing me! Maybe I missed it, but is De Weberis Franz? What else can you tell from the TV, could you see that Kubica was underweight?

Wasn´t the Ferrari flexible front wing found on TV?

[Mauseri]

I've been thinking it's Schumacher playing on the throttle during brakes.

Wouldn't surprise me if he uses illegal brake devices though. Already in 2001 TC was legalized only because MS couldn't stop using it

[carbonfibre]

Quote

Originally posted by micra_k10
I've been thinking it's Schumacher playing on the throttle during brakes.

Wouldn't surprise me if he uses illegal brake devices though. Already in 2001 TC was legalized only because MS couldn't stop using it

I hope you are joking....

[FlashMaster]

Quote

Originally posted by carbonfibre
I hope you are joking....

me too.

MS would destroy them all without TC....

[Punisher6]

Quote

Originally posted by Fortymark


Wasn´t the Ferrari flexible front wing found on TV?

errr, yeah.

But I'm sure the teams saw it, they look at that stuff very closely.

[JForce]

Answer the question De Weberis.

If your assertion is that any modulation of the throttle during braking, which helps the braking, is illegal, then surely we have to ban anyone who uses the brakes and accelerator at the same time.

Don't we?

[De Weberis]

Quote

Originally posted by micra_k10
I've been thinking it's Schumacher playing on the throttle during brakes.

The information I have about MS braking preference is he likes to brake as late as possible, slamming the brakes.
What kind of modulation is this?
IMO, I think is naive the assumption that going down the Parabolica at 300km/h+ MS blimps the throttle at that rate.

Wether it's electronic or not or why it only appears in MS' Ferrari, I'm not convinced.
If it's electronic, it is illegal.

Again, using Rubens as a benchmark, when he did it at Honda, slamming the brakes, he simply locked the rear wheels all the time - loosing time and winning tire degradation.
Rubens tested several kind of brakes from different brands and it wasn't solved.
Barry just hinted that Honda was very primitive in the electronics side and was concincing them to change their conception on somethings.
Honda's recovery and Button win confirms something has changed there.

[baddog]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

The information I have about MS braking preference is he likes to brake as late as possible, slamming the brakes.

Thats beautiful man.. just beatiful.. you are so wrong its not funny.

[macoran]

Quote

Originally posted by JForce
Answer the question De Weberis.

If your assertion is that any modulation of the throttle during braking, which helps the braking, is illegal, then surely we have to ban anyone who uses the brakes and accelerator at the same time.

Don't we?

Yes !!! I run an automatic and I left foot brake, so .......whatcha gonna do about that ???
I'll slap your face Webbo ...that's what !

[Alien]

Quote

Originally posted by baddog


Thats beautiful man.. just beatiful.. you are so wrong its not funny.

Why is he wrong, care to give a little PROOF that he is wrong??? Why didn't you even even ask him for his source??? What an idiotic post baddog.....

Now to ask the RIGHT way.

Quote

The information I have about MS braking preference is he likes to brake as late as possible, slamming the brakes.

De Webberis, what is the source of the "information you have"?

[Jordan191]

Quote

Originally posted by Alien


Why is he wrong, care to give a little PROOF that he is wrong??? Why didn't you even even ask him for his source??? What an idiotic post baddog.....

Now to ask the RIGHT way.



De Webberis, what is the source of the "information you have"?

http://www.youtube.c...0&search=Schumi

As they say in Unreal Tournament 2004

HEADSHOT!!!

[baddog]

Quote

Originally posted by Alien

What an idiotic post baddog.....

Grow a pair you soppy git.

He is wrong because Michaels driving style is well documented, and does not involve "slamming the brakes on" mor than usual at any point.. in fact the opposite, braking less than most other drivers and adjusting the car through the corner.

[Alien]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191


http://www.youtube.c...0&search=Schumi

As they say in Unreal Tournament 2004

HEADSHOT!!!

I just saw the movie, very nice, but they don't talk about the brakes!!!! They show the steering and throttle traces on a fast corner.

[Alien]

Quote

Originally posted by baddog


Grow a pair you soppy git.

He is wrong because Michaels driving style is well documented, and does not involve "slamming the brakes on" mor than usual at any point.. in fact the opposite, braking less than most other drivers and adjusting the car through the corner.

Source?

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Quote

Originally posted by Alien


Source?

If u actually care to follow this thread from the beginning, and see how some poster provided a video source w/ telelmetry, maybe you wouldn't be parroting source? source? source?

[valachus]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191


http://www.youtube.c...0&search=Schumi

As they say in Unreal Tournament 2004

HEADSHOT!!!

Fantastic clip, where is it taken from?!

[F1Champion]

1) Firstly who are you to label Ferrari as running an illegal rear brake aid when you have no proof?

2) Secondly how accurate do you honestly believe that on-screen graphic is?

3) Thirdly have you not known that all the F1 cars blip the throttle on downshifts?

4) Lastly and most importantly you should have known that Michael keeps his foot on the throttle while braking so on the graphic you'll see braking and throttle at the same time. If you want proof watch the video on the internet of Johnny Herbert and Michael Schumacher's telemetry comparison.

[JForce]

Quote

Originally posted by JForce
Answer the question De Weberis.

If your assertion is that any modulation of the throttle during braking, which helps the braking, is illegal, then surely we have to ban anyone who uses the brakes and accelerator at the same time.

Don't we?

No answer yet De Weberis.

[HoldenRT]

No one has quoted my post or disagreed with what I said. But I just want to say that I never said anything that Ferrari were doing was illegal. I do think it's suspcious. To have a car that was 4 seconds slower due to the wrong (worn) tyres, and be able to do both pulling away in top speed on the straight and then outbrake car that had more grip on dry tyres is suspicous. I stand by that. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they are breaking the rules. Ferrari are one of the best at engineering an F1 car. No doubt about that.

I don't doubt that Schumacher has skills, but in the days of TC they have become redundant. I have seen replies contradict each other. Do all teams have this "blipping" of the throttle due to electronics and if so the Ferrari shouldn't have SUCH a large advantage in the heavy braking areas or is MS manually doing it? Can it make up such a difference that it can gain so much time in heavy braking zones, that a car 4 seconds quicker can't overtake it?

I have no doubt if TC was banned MS would dominate the field. However in this modern era they the advantage becomes small. It is much more the car that makes the difference then the driver. Sadly.

Here is a good video showing MS skills.

[Melbourne Park]

I recall I think Sato at Honda, he had lots of engine failures, Button didn't, they found out that it was the way he blipping the throttle. I recall he was not being severe enough on the engine ... it sounded funny or ironic at the time. I imagine now that ECU software is assisting with such issues to assist in engine life. But i also imagine that Ferrari know how MS drives by now, and they have a good record in engine reliability with his technique: they would build the engine around that I'd imagine.

[HP]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191


http://www.youtube.c...0&search=Schumi

As they say in Unreal Tournament 2004

HEADSHOT!!!

From the video:

Quote

The speed he carries into the corner is unbelievable

Quote

Herbert is longer on the throttle approaching a corner

Does that sound like MS stands on the brakes late, and slams them?

Edit: last sentence was asking the opposite.

[HP]

Quote

Originally posted by De Weberis

The information I have about MS braking preference is he likes to brake as late as possible, slamming the brakes.

You might confuse Ralf Schumacher with MS, who is said to be a late braker.

Other than that I remember an article in Autosport, that in comparison with JPM, both Schumachers brake later, but Ralf later than Michael.

[HoldenRT]

I posted the same video Jordan191 posted with a differnt name of the video.

Sorry, I should have read the posts above.

[red300zx99]

I could be wrong but a 50-50 brake bias split for F1 sounds like a spin waiting to happen to me. Typically a race car uses about a 60-40 split, 60 being the front brakes. Load transfers to the front under braking, therefore you want less braking in the rear as compared to the front. The more you brake with the rears the more lateral control you lose from them(decreasing stabilty).


The telemetry readings you see on TV were discussed in the Tech Forum and there it was noted that the Red Bull's Ferrari engines show the same blipping under braking. All the teams seem to have some sort of control over engine braking. So I guess the question is why is the Ferrari engine the only engine that shows engine blipping on TV. Personally I think that most teams provide throttle position data of the drivers foot for TV telemetry inputs while ferrari gives data about the position of the actual throttle at the engine.

[De Weberis]

As I have read through my life following F1, MS driving style is...

late brake, slide fast the rear-end early accelerate.

There was a comparison among Button and Rubens at the begin of the year quoting that Button was an early smooth braker, carrying more speed through the apex of the curve and the accelerating. Rubens by his way was braking later, harder and accelerating.

MS brakes even later and harder that Rubens.

How can MS late brake and be smoother than the other?
How can somebody actually compare those guys braking if they use different brand of brakes, specs, pedal course, force, actuators, different tires, etc.
I guess the magazines or sites were informative, but they can't compare directly all drivers like they were in the lab.

Anyway it doesn't matter.

The fact is what me and HoldeRT (I can't believe) have mentioned about the DoLoRosa and MS episode.
No one also could explain convincingly and technically the fast frame blimps in MS brakes.
What is that? Ms has so much disk brake stoping power that he can afford accelerating under heavy braking?
If he really accelerates to trasfer the weight forward, why the camera doesn't bounce?

The laws of FIA bent towards Ferrari's favour, but the laws of physic do not.

Why you disqualify so much the pedal bar information?
You really don't know Siemens capabilities.
Do you think Siemens would put his name in a system - developed by them or not - that doesn't work? For a qualified audience?

There is something in those rear brakes for sure that makes them superior under heavy braking after long straights and the edge on tracks like Bahrein, Indy and Monza.

[HP]

Well Rubens at Ferrari was expected to do much better with the single tyre rule in 2005, because of his alleged smoother driving style. Didn't happen. Rubens shoot his tyres more often than MS did. Same for jarno and Ralf.

There are other examples as well, and they tell us one thing, Unless we ourselves are F1 racers we have not enough info to make good enough and 100% valid observations.