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Why could't traction control be enforcibly banned?


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#1 imaginesix

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 03:08

As I understand it, in order to implement a traction control strategy the algorithm only requires road speed and wheel speed inputs. The relation between these two gives you slip % which is plotted against grip. Now I understand that there are several ways to get those signals, but if it were possible to ban all possible sources of either wheel speed or engine speed signal then there should be no scope for the development of TC, correct?

If we start by looking at wheel speed, it is clear that engine RPM and gear ratio values will give you wheel speed. Given the value these signals have in implementing some very important, everyday engine and transmission control systems, I can't see banning them. So if these are not banned, then there is no point in trying to control wheel speed signals at all as RPM and gear ratio will always offer a method of getting that signal. So I turn to look at road speed...

The following are all the methods I know can be used to determine road speed:
- GPS
- Accelerometer
- Airspeed sensor
- Optical speed sensor
- Wheel speed sensors

I don't believe any of the first three options could offer a signal with a high enough degree of precision to enable TC systems that are more responsive than is the driver's right foot, effectively eliminating them as options. As for the other two sensor types, they would do very well as inputs for road speed so by simply banning them there would be no scope at all for the implementation of TC. Besides, I don't know what other value these sensors add to the operation of a race car, except in testing.

So, putting aside the question of whether such a ban is desireable, is it really as easy to implement as I make it out to be?

In this earlier thread on the subject an interesting statement was made by random: "The illicit systems used in Nascar monitor the spark for signatures of traction loss, then ****** the spark until the signature is no longer present." Unfortunately this concept is beyond my grasp, and there were no replies that might help to substabtiate or refute the claim. I would appreciate if anyone could offer some insight on this technique and whether it could be applied in F1 to circumvent the solution I am proposing?

Thanks! :up:

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#2 turbolimac

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 04:43

I would speculate that in the illegal systems that monitor the ignition, they first record the max engine acceleration with good traction which gives them a "base map" that shows the maximum acceleration they can have with no wheelspin... any increases n engine speed beyont that can be identified as wheelspin...

#3 desmo

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 04:59

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=44242

#4 Greg Locock

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:05

..and a microphone anywhere near the intake would make a reasonable substitute for the ignition signal, so you don't even need an electronic source for the rpm signal.

#5 Powersteer

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:38

The high budget teams would be happier if traction control is banned. They are the ones who would spend money on going around the ban.

Banning and allowing only a selected engine management sensors might make it even tighter for teams to replicate traction control. If they only allow air and fuel flow sensors and have zero interference from other sensors, traction control might be out of Formula One.

:cool:

#6 Ben

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 09:15

Originally posted by imaginesix
"The illicit systems used in Nascar monitor the spark for signatures of traction loss, then ****** the spark until the signature is no longer present." Unfortunately this concept is beyond my grasp, and there were no replies that might help to substabtiate or refute the claim. I would appreciate if anyone could offer some insight on this technique and whether it could be applied in F1 to circumvent the solution I am proposing?

Thanks! :up:


You can't ban traction control.

You assume that you need ground speed and wheels speeds. Ideally this is the case. But it's perfectly possible to build up a database of anticipated engine rpm rate of change and throttle back or cut spark if this rate gets too high. It's also virtually impossible to stop a team calculating ground speed via airspeed from a plenum pressure sensor.

None of these systems are ideal, but are certainly better than nothing and impossible to ban.

The only way of banning TC completely is a spec and sealed ECU and wiring loom. Even then I reckon some geek would learn how to hack it :-)

BTW, I've still never heard a good argument for banning TC anyway, care to present one?

Ben

#7 turbolimac

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 09:25

..and a microphone anywhere near the intake would make a reasonable substitute for the ignition signal, so you don't even need an electronic source for the rpm signal.


yeah but in nascar they stick in the ignition module... good souce for the RPM signal I reckon..

on a similar note.. some roadgoing cars, such as lancia delta integrale, used engine acceleration to determine in which gear the car was.. to facilitate boost control in some gears..

#8 imaginesix

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 13:11

Well, that very quickly answered my question. So you don't need to know road speed signal if you can calibrate in advance the maximum engine accel expected for a given level of traction.

Charlie Whiting tried to distinguish this from TC by calling it "traction optimisation". I guessed that "traction optimisation" would only provide an improvement in wheelspin control from a standing start, but clearly I was mistaken and it can be applied during the entire race.

Thanks all.

#9 McGuire

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 15:42

Originally posted by Ben


The only way of banning TC completely is a spec and sealed ECU and wiring loom. Even then I reckon some geek would learn how to hack it :-)

BTW, I've still never heard a good argument for banning TC anyway, care to present one?

Ben



1. At the begining of the race weekend, each team shall be issued one 8-cylinder Vertex magneto and 6 feet of 14-gauge wire. At the end of the weekend the items shall be removed from the vehicle and returned to the FIA. These items shall constitute the only electrical equipment permitted on the vehicle during the race weekend.

2. Wheelspin sells tickets. See also: oversteer, opposite lock.

#10 desmo

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 19:11

Originally posted by McGuire



1. At the begining of the race weekend, each team shall be issued one 8-cylinder Vertex magneto and 6 feet of 14-gauge wire. At the end of the weekend the items shall be removed from the vehicle and returned to the FIA. These items shall constitute the only electrical equipment permitted on the vehicle during the race weekend.

2. Wheelspin sells tickets. See also: oversteer, opposite lock.


1. Why doesn't NASCAR do exactly that then?

2. Even sans TC, do you really think the racing in F1 would really look perceptably different to your average casual fan?

#11 McGuire

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 19:25

Originally posted by desmo


1. Why doesn't NASCAR do exactly that then?

2. Even sans TC, do you really think the racing in F1 would really look perceptably different to your average casual fan?


1. Gee, your mental phonograph needle has been stuck on NASCAR lately. It's just NASCAR this and that NASCAR that with you. I didn't know you were such a fan. But actually, NASCAR does do a similar thing. They make everyone run MSD analog spark controllers and you also may have noticed they must be mounted right on top of the dash so there is no monkey business.

2. It's a start. Then take away 95% of the downforce and put them on DOT/EU road tires, maximum tread width 7".

#12 angst

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 19:58

Originally posted by McGuire


1. Gee, your mental phonograph needle has been stuck on NASCAR lately. It's just NASCAR this and that NASCAR that with you. I didn't know you were such a fan. But actually, NASCAR does do a similar thing. They make everyone run MSD analog spark controllers and you also may have noticed they must be mounted right on top of the dash so there is no monkey business.

2. It's a start. Then take away 95% of the downforce and put them on DOT/EU road tires, maximum tread width 7".


I like both your suggestions. I've argued before for a mechanically dominated, technical F1. No electronics at all, absolutely pared down aerodynamics - allow a fixed amount of fuel, gripless tyres and then - anything goes. All wheel drive, all wheel steering, regenerative energy, torque transfer devices, mass dampers, V12s, V16s( no supercharging or turbocharging)... whatever. And the maximum fuel allowance should be enforced by means of.... refuelling by gravity feed only, maximum height 2m (the old regs for refuelling on the starting grid, essentially), a minimum 'dry' weight for the car, and a maximum weight going onto the grid. Races minimum 2 hours.

#13 phantom II

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 02:10

For the life of me, I cant understand why those who are schooled in math and physics would want to put a hold on technology. F1 must strive to go faster, TC enables this. I hate technological limitations on the sport and for that matter, even financial ones. Advanced systems require advanced drivers. To go faster requires different skills. There becomes a distinct and obvious difference between good drivers and bad that is not that apparent on lesser sideways formulas.
This subject comes up from time to time and infuriates me. I wouldn't let you guys into my house, you would depress me. Not you Ben.

Originally posted by Ben


You can't ban traction control.


BTW, I've still never heard a good argument for banning TC anyway, care to present one?

Ben



#14 zac510

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 09:06

Originally posted by phantom II
For the life of me, I cant understand why those who are schooled in math and physics would want to put a hold on technology.


Perhaps there is more interest in the maths and physics challenges of suspension design and geometries than those of electronics.

#15 Ben

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 11:31

Originally posted by McGuire



1. At the begining of the race weekend, each team shall be issued one 8-cylinder Vertex magneto and 6 feet of 14-gauge wire. At the end of the weekend the items shall be removed from the vehicle and returned to the FIA. These items shall constitute the only electrical equipment permitted on the vehicle during the race weekend.

2. Wheelspin sells tickets. See also: oversteer, opposite lock.


Some of these are still present in F1 cars despite traction cotnrol.

MotoGP bikes have traction and launch control and ride by wire throttles - Did you watch the GP at Estoril last weekend?

The lack of opposite lock and wheelspin is because race cars that do these things all the time are slow. Do traction control free ALMS cars constantly come around turns broadside? no. Do IRL cars on superspeedways come around turns broadside? No.

Ben

#16 McGuire

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 13:01

Originally posted by phantom II
For the life of me, I cant understand why those who are schooled in math and physics would want to put a hold on technology.


You can't put a hold on technology. But you had better be willing to manage it or it will run out of control, in racing or anywhere else. Only a lunatic would argue that technology should be allowed to run unbridled through society. Racing, same thing.

#17 Stian1979

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 10:15

Originally posted by Ben


BTW, I've still never heard a good argument for banning TC anyway, care to present one?

Ben


Automatic gear and active suspension and the CVT gearbox is baned so why should not TC also be?

#18 FreeRider

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 11:54

Why couldn't they ban all the electronics and let some mechanical regulations loose? It would turn F1 back as the pinnacle of car technology and it's evolution. Also there wouldn't be any driver aids or telemetry, which increases the importance of driver's mechanical knowledge and skills. So would wolves be fed and lambs alive.

#19 imaginesix

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 15:02

Have you guys even read this thread?

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#20 imaginesix

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 23:27

Originally posted by Ben
BTW, I've still never heard a good argument for banning TC anyway, care to present one?

It reduces the control drivers have over their cars' performance, which makes the racing less interesting in my view.

I'd be interested to hear the contrary position, i.e. why should TC be encouraged?

#21 Ben

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 08:24

Originally posted by imaginesix
It reduces the control drivers have over their cars' performance, which makes the racing less interesting in my view.

I'd be interested to hear the contrary position, i.e. why should TC be encouraged?


Did you notice when Button's TCS wasn't working in qualifying. Or were you none the wiser until he was interviewed...?

Motorsport is not only a competition between drivers. It is a competition between men and machines. It is inherent to the concept of motorsport that new and innovative technology is used to increase performance and reduce lap time.

If you want man on man competition go and watch GP2 or the Olympic Games. F1 is about technology as much as drivers.

On TC and drive by wire making racing less interesting. The obvious counter argument is MotoGP. They have all the rider aids under the sun and the racing is spectacular. Are you sure the current state of aero development doesn't adversely affect F1 way more than TC?

Ben

#22 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 09:28

The problem with you engineers is that you aren't very pragmatic ;)

Even if there is no noticeable difference with or without TC, perception is everything in the product of motorsport. I'm not convinced Formula 1 is attracting new fans, beyond the nationalists of whatever country of the week has a new driver on the scene. Anything you can do to help sell the World Championship is only going to help. There's plenty of technology to work on in the car if you dumb down electronics. Hell maybe designers will re-learn that cars need to be flexible in their peformance, and not just following predicted code.

#23 Ben

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 09:59

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The problem with you engineers is that you aren't very pragmatic ;)

Even if there is no noticeable difference with or without TC, perception is everything in the product of motorsport. I'm not convinced Formula 1 is attracting new fans, beyond the nationalists of whatever country of the week has a new driver on the scene. Anything you can do to help sell the World Championship is only going to help. There's plenty of technology to work on in the car if you dumb down electronics. Hell maybe designers will re-learn that cars need to be flexible in their peformance, and not just following predicted code.


You may have a point Ross - but the question about MotoGP remains. Are we sure it ain't other aspects of the regs that are the problem.

I honestly think knife-edge aero that kills the handling when you get within 8 let alone half a car's length of the guy in front is making F1 dull.

Ben

#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 10:11

Isn't MotoGP traction control a little less sophisticated? How are they still able to spin up the rear wheels? And imagine how good it would be if they were even harder to ride. Athough that may lend itself to more 'excitement' in the sense of people falling off more frequently.

#25 Ben

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 11:17

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Isn't MotoGP traction control a little less sophisticated? How are they still able to spin up the rear wheels? And imagine how good it would be if they were even harder to ride. Athough that may lend itself to more 'excitement' in the sense of people falling off more frequently.


It's no less sophisticated. They're able to spin up and slide, but the good riders don't do it too much. You can still spin and slide an F1 car with TC but it's slow so they don't. On a MotoGP bike it can help you, so they do. It has nothing to do with the relative sophistication of the systems

Both have fully active throttles and spark/fuel cut TC.

Ben

#26 McGuire

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 11:18

The motorcycle is an intrinsically unstable device.* You can put all the electronic aids on it you want and it will still look scary as hell from the grandstands. These devices do not have the same effectiveness as on four-wheeled vehicles, so it is sort of a skewed analogy.

*to test this bold assertion try the following. Remove the motorcycle from its stand, grasp the handlebars and then let go. Note: it just falls right over, thunk.

#27 Ben

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 11:29

Originally posted by McGuire
The motorcycle is an intrinsically unstable device.* You can put all the electronic aids on it you want and it will still look scary as hell from the grandstands. These devices do not have the same effectiveness as on four-wheeled vehicles, so it is sort of a skewed analogy.

*to test this bold assertion try the following. Remove the motorcycle from its stand, grasp the handlebars and then let go. Note: it just falls right over, thunk.


I think it's a fair analogy - It's not the TC that makes F1 cars look dull. The fact is a fairly well sorted (and inherently stable) 4-wheeled vehicle ain't going to look out of control or sideways if it's driven correctly and fast. I was pointing out that clearly TC isn't the key factor in the visual spectacle here, the inherent characteristics of the vehicle are.

The big problem I have with all the anti-TC brigade is that they somehow think low peak force slip angle radial tyres and aero that is hypersensitive to yaw and wake variations is suddenly going to go away if TC is banned.

When it was banned for a period of time did the visual spectacle change significantly? I don't believe it did.

Mcguire: Your post about wing changes and narrow tyres was clearly tongue in cheek, but in reality touched on more important issues than the narrow one of TC.

We now have a single tyre supplier rule. The easiest way of improving the spectacle would be to force Bridgestone to demonstrate via flat track testing or modelling that they have doubled the slip angle for peak lateral force at a given load.

Ben

#28 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 12:00

You can see the difference in TC and non TC in a single seater, but you really have to look and know what to look for. The same way you can differentiate driving styles and lines through a corner. 90% of people cant see it, even amongst those on BB's who think they can. But its the knowledge that its there.

Im the same way as you, but with gearboxes. It doesnt seem 'right' that the only two road racing series I can think of still using H patterns are V8 supercars and Formula Fords, but even fully automatic F1 boxes never bothered me. Its just gear changing, who really cares.

I do desperately miss the really lairy starts they used to have. Is there any way to bring back the randomness and chaos of the run to the first turn?

#29 angst

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 12:03

Originally posted by Ben


I think it's a fair analogy - It's not the TC that makes F1 cars look dull. The fact is a fairly well sorted (and inherently stable) 4-wheeled vehicle ain't going to look out of control or sideways if it's driven correctly and fast. I was pointing out that clearly TC isn't the key factor in the visual spectacle here, the inherent characteristics of the vehicle are.

The big problem I have with all the anti-TC brigade is that they somehow think low peak force slip angle radial tyres and aero that is hypersensitive to yaw and wake variations is suddenly going to go away if TC is banned.

When it was banned for a period of time did the visual spectacle change significantly? I don't believe it did.

Mcguire: Your post about wing changes and narrow tyres was clearly tongue in cheek, but in reality touched on more important issues than the narrow one of TC.

We now have a single tyre supplier rule. The easiest way of improving the spectacle would be to force Bridgestone to demonstrate via flat track testing or modelling that they have doubled the slip angle for peak lateral force at a given load.

Ben


Couldn't agree more. I'd like TC banned, but more for reasons other than making the cars more visually exciting - basically because, as you rightly point out, it is the lack of any slip angle, the incredible pitch sensitivity of the aero, the massive amount of grip and the fact that the whole thing is such a stable platform that tends toward the 'on rails' visual impression.

he one positive factor of a single tyre supplier would be, imo, a massive reduction in grip and a corresponding increase in slip angles.

#30 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 13:18

But thats not going to happen if, as Ben pointed out, you still have the same aero problems

#31 Ben

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 13:47

The regulations have travelled down a technical cul-de-sac predominantly because the FIA were stupid enough to think that restricting downforce alone would slow the cars down.

Crucially restrictions on engines were not considered.

The result of course was that whenever the FIA “restricted” downforce all the teams did was keep the downforce the same but generated more drag for the that downforce. Without corresponding engine restrictions the extra drag was overcome with extra engine power.

Every other governing body in motorsport has realised that the only way to control speeds with any sort of success is to restrict engines with air restrictors. Restricting capacity alone doesn’t work that well in F1 because the teams will gradually reduce friction and pumping losses and spin the things at higher rpm. Air restrictions and rev limits actually cap the air you can pump into the engine in a far more controllable way.

Again it may be a perception thing and people might not like “restricted” engines in F1 – but you will always have restrictions and perceptions might need to change.

Ben

#32 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 14:02

As long as they dont look like F3 cars...

#33 Ben

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 14:25

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
As long as they dont look like F3 cars...


F3 cars just copy the F1 cars of the day do they not? Silly gills and winglets for all :-)

Ben

#34 angst

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 17:05

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
But thats not going to happen if, as Ben pointed out, you still have the same aero problems


No, but the tyre company can't do anything about that. As I said the one positive of a single tyre supplier would be.... as last post, but the overbearing reliance on aero grip, and the awful mess that the regs have ended up in thanks to trying to control it (the high front wing, incredibly pitch sensitive diffusers, front wings, winglets etc.) would have to be addressed as well. But if you address any in isolation then there probably won't be much change.

OT - I know you don't have much time for the manual gearchange thing, but as you brought it up - I think you'd be quite surprised at how many on track position changes were due to fluffed gearchanges, especially under pressure. You may refer to it as 'just gearchanging', but that then leads to 'it's just pressing the accelerator', and then 'it's only stamping on the brakes' - to 'it's just chosing a line'. It's a matter of where you stop. I, personally, think that manual gearchanging and no electronic driver aids would help to decrease engine speeds anyhow. I think components would have to be built with the human factor in mind, and engines would have to be 'smoother' in producing their power. With TC one can design much more top end into the equation, as the electronics will go a long way to smoothing the power curve out for you.

#35 imaginesix

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 19:48

Originally posted by Ben
Did you notice when Button's TCS wasn't working in qualifying. Or were you none the wiser until he was interviewed...?

Motorsport is not only a competition between drivers. It is a competition between men and machines. It is inherent to the concept of motorsport that new and innovative technology is used to increase performance and reduce lap time.

If you want man on man competition go and watch GP2 or the Olympic Games. F1 is about technology as much as drivers.

On TC and drive by wire making racing less interesting. The obvious counter argument is MotoGP. They have all the rider aids under the sun and the racing is spectacular. Are you sure the current state of aero development doesn't adversely affect F1 way more than TC?

Ben

For there to be any noticeable difference between two racecars requires that they in fact behave in substantively different manners. That means not only must TC be disabled but the cars must be controlled in a different manner in those two instances being compared.

This is the essence of sport; a competition between two people (or groups) whose different performances are pitted against the other's. A good spectator sport is one where that difference is noticeable to the fan, so if there was anything in Button's driving to suggest that his TC was inactive then that would tell us that his performance was weak. Which is more interesting than not knowing.

Motorsport, as you say, is a competition between men as well as between machines. Increasingly that competition has been biased towards the machine and I haven't heard anybody suggest that the driver has more than 20% influence on the performance of the car for a long time. I am wary of increasing that bias any more than strictly necessary. In addition, once TC is implemented there is not much "new and innovative" to expand upon from there, it just becomes a matter of tuning to the tires. As such it removes more from the spectacle than it adds.

At least one reason why MotoGP may be a very succesful form of spectator motorsport is that even with 100% electronic driver aids, the bikes do not have any yaw control (or stability control) system. The rider still has about as much control as an F1 driver has with only TC implemented. If 100% driver aids were allowed in F1 it would result in braking control and most importantly yaw control, which is an entirely different ballgame from where MotoGP is at. Other reasons why MotoGP might present closer, more interesting racing include aerodynamic differences as you suggest. I do believe that aero issues are by far a more significant reason for the poor quality of racing in F1 these days, but that doesn't eliminate TC as a concern as well.

Ultimately, TC is has to be lived with (being inevitable as it is), especially as there seems to be somewhat of a natural 'stepping stone' separating it from the next level of driver aids (braking and yaw control).

#36 Canuck

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 23:38

Originally posted by imaginesix

Motorsport, as you say, is a competition between men as well as between machines. Increasingly that competition has been biased towards the machine and I haven't heard anybody suggest that the driver has more than 20% influence on the performance of the car for a long time.

I don't know if that's true - I have to assume they're paying the drivers they are because they are more able than the rest of us.

#37 desmo

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 02:45

There seem to be at least a couple of unsupported assertions present. Firstly that effectively banning TC will have any substantive effect on the spectacle of racing, and secondly that TC will reduce the influence of the driver in the performance equation. The first makes little sense to me and the second assumes that the whatever cognitive resources might be devoted to throttle control in the absence of TC won't be used for another purpose given TC.

I think as it stands the arguments against TC appear to be emotional moreso than rational in their motivations. And it appears you really have to emasculate the powertrain technology level to antediluvian levels to effectively disallow TC.

#38 Canuck

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 04:28

Noah built a fine ship...

#39 angst

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 18:06

Originally posted by imaginesix
For there to be any noticeable difference between two racecars requires that they in fact behave in substantively different manners. That means not only must TC be disabled but the cars must be controlled in a different manner in those two instances being compared.

This is the essence of sport; a competition between two people (or groups) whose different performances are pitted against the other's. A good spectator sport is one where that difference is noticeable to the fan, so if there was anything in Button's driving to suggest that his TC was inactive then that would tell us that his performance was weak. Which is more interesting than not knowing.

Motorsport, as you say, is a competition between men as well as between machines. Increasingly that competition has been biased towards the machine and I haven't heard anybody suggest that the driver has more than 20% influence on the performance of the car for a long time. I am wary of increasing that bias any more than strictly necessary. In addition, once TC is implemented there is not much "new and innovative" to expand upon from there, it just becomes a matter of tuning to the tires. As such it removes more from the spectacle than it adds.

At least one reason why MotoGP may be a very succesful form of spectator motorsport is that even with 100% electronic driver aids, the bikes do not have any yaw control (or stability control) system. The rider still has about as much control as an F1 driver has with only TC implemented. If 100% driver aids were allowed in F1 it would result in braking control and most importantly yaw control, which is an entirely different ballgame from where MotoGP is at. Other reasons why MotoGP might present closer, more interesting racing include aerodynamic differences as you suggest. I do believe that aero issues are by far a more significant reason for the poor quality of racing in F1 these days, but that doesn't eliminate TC as a concern as well.

Ultimately, TC is has to be lived with (being inevitable as it is), especially as there seems to be somewhat of a natural 'stepping stone' separating it from the next level of driver aids (braking and yaw control).


I rather think that such as braking and yaw control is, to a certain, already existant in F1. I believe that electronic control has developed way beyond the simple boundaries of TC that most people seem to understand. I think it jhas got to the point that virtually any reasonably talented race driver can quite easily run competitively within the environs of F1. Massa, for example, has done nothing to suggest any greatness, imo, but there he is setting pole positions and running away with races. I would suggest that, were TC (and it's additionalside benefits) removed, Massa might find it more difficult to compete with such as Raikkonen and Alonso - he'd have to work at putting two laps together that resembled each other, without the electronic driver aids smoothing out his errors for a start.

It can be seen as an 'emotional' respinse, to a certain extent, but then that, surely, is what sport is about. And, whilever F1 is the conduit for the World Drivers' Championship it would be nice to know that the driver's input was at least as important as in other series - if not more so. Raikkonen, Vettel and Hamilton are three young drivers who have cast doubt upon that particular assumption.

I also believe that the use of the electronic control systems allows the engineers to build much faster cars than otherwise would be feasible, for the reasons I gave in my previous post. If you want to control speeds then remove electronic control systems, or control their use, remove the available grip from the tyres, and reduce the amount of downforce available to the teams - including reducing the size of wings they can try and get their engines to drag through the air. Want to make it more spectacular - greater slip angles, greater driver control, a reduction in the amount of grip. More than that, make it less easy to optimise performance. Try and eliminate refuelling as much as possible - maybe half the fuel flow, reduce the number of pit crew able to work on the cars during the race.

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#40 angst

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 18:09

Originally posted by desmo
There seem to be at least a couple of unsupported assertions present. Firstly that effectively banning TC will have any substantive effect on the spectacle of racing, and secondly that TC will reduce the influence of the driver in the performance equation. The first makes little sense to me and the second assumes that the whatever cognitive resources might be devoted to throttle control in the absence of TC won't be used for another purpose given TC.

I think as it stands the arguments against TC appear to be emotional moreso than rational in their motivations. And it appears you really have to emasculate the powertrain technology level to antediluvian levels to effectively disallow TC.


"and secondly that TC will reduce the influence of the driver in the performance equation." - I really don't see how that can be sconsidered unsupported. Watch any footage around, say, Brazil and see how much TC is used. Then think that every time TC is used is another time that the driver would normally be making that adjustment. I can't see how that can be seen as anything other than lessening the driver's input.

#41 imaginesix

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 03:57

Originally posted by desmo
There seem to be at least a couple of unsupported assertions present. Firstly that effectively banning TC will have any substantive effect on the spectacle of racing, and secondly that TC will reduce the influence of the driver in the performance equation. The first makes little sense to me and the second assumes that the whatever cognitive resources might be devoted to throttle control in the absence of TC won't be used for another purpose given TC.

I think as it stands the arguments against TC appear to be emotional moreso than rational in their motivations. And it appears you really have to emasculate the powertrain technology level to antediluvian levels to effectively disallow TC.

The argument against TC is as much of an emotional one as the argument in favor of it; either side is supporting their view of a racing formula that they would prefer to see. Not that anybody has expressed any support for it, it's been more along the lines of 'just embrace the change'. Anyways, we have to keep in mind that since a ban on TC is impossible in reality, this discussion can only be about our fundamental view of TC (and driver aids in general) and how it affects the sport.

On this subject, TC evidently does have some affect on the spectacle as there are no longer any standing starts filled with tire smoke, and fewer hair-raising dashes to the first corner. There are no more on-board shots where the engine revs up with no corresponding increase in the car's speed, no more 'tank slapping' exits out of corners. These tell-tale signals have all been eliminated by the microchip. There used to be a time when I would take pride in spotting drivers' efforts or errors before anyone else did, by watching for just such tiny effects during a race. Now it's not even worth paying attention. Hmm, that may explain why even the announcers seemed to take forever to notice when MS blew his engine in Japan, or when he lost power (both times) in Brazil.

Anyways, it doesn't particularly matter if you believe that TC visually impacts the racing. The mere knowledge that the system's purpose is to usurp some control from the driver is enough to compromise the spectacle as far as I'm concerned.

Because it reduces the driver's control, it must have the effect of reducing the influence of the driver in the performance equation. I don't see how it could be interpreted otherwise. The fact that TC enables the driver to focus on other aspects of the car's handling, or on which position he will take with his supermodel girlfriend that night, is of no consequence. In the end all the driver's focus must be acted through his inputs to the car and once any of those input systems is mediated by a control system, his control is correspondingly reduced.

Consider two extremes whereby drivers have either 100% or 0% control of their car. In the first instance they would race much like they had up until the electronic age, with 100% control of the car giving them maybe 25-50% influence over the outcome of their race, the rest influenced by the car's performance package. Obviously, with 0% control of the car they have no influence whatsoever on the outcome. The performances would be guided entirely by indistinguishable control systems and the results would almost perfectly mirror the performance capabilities of the cars, from the very first lap to the last. I can appreciate that there is some appeal to such a scenario, but we must remember that the 'Robot Wars' fad has already come and gone!:p

The point of that intellectual exercise was that it allows us to draw the conclusion that there is no downside to giving more control to the driver, but each increment of control that is ceded to computers necessarily worsens the spectacle. Unless, of course, one is of the opinion that the human element only adds chaos to the results. I can't disagree with that viewpoint but I do find it sad.

The conclusion for me is that human fallibility is an important part of what makes competition interesting (even if it is the least fallible drivers that we idolise).

#42 Ben

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 06:46

Originally posted by angst


I rather think that such as braking and yaw control is, to a certain, already existant in F1. I believe that electronic control has developed way beyond the simple boundaries of TC that most people seem to understand. I think it jhas got to the point that virtually any reasonably talented race driver can quite easily run competitively within the environs of F1. Massa, for example, has done nothing to suggest any greatness, imo, but there he is setting pole positions and running away with races. I would suggest that, were TC (and it's additionalside benefits) removed, Massa might find it more difficult to compete with such as Raikkonen and Alonso - he'd have to work at putting two laps together that resembled each other, without the electronic driver aids smoothing out his errors for a start.


The fact that you don't rate Felippe Massa is irrelevant as far as any debate on TC goes.

The fact that Senna was still as great with TC as without, ditto Alain Prost should show that even if it changes the role slightly of the driver it doesn't suddenly make bad drivers good to the extent that they can beat the very best.

It was mentioned about the driver only having about 20% input to a car vs. 80% for a bike. Unfortunately that's fairly true. Cars fundamentally allow less influence from the driver whether they have TC or not. What you see on the track today wouldn't be different without TC. The cars are that well sorted.

Ben

#43 McGuire

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 10:39

Originally posted by Ben



What you see on the track today wouldn't be different without TC. The cars are that well sorted.

Ben


To me, eliminating traction control is just a start. Next remove 40% of the tire width and 90% of the aero downforce.

#44 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 11:11

If we got rid of wings, we'd reduce budgets too :lol:

#45 zac510

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 11:23

Get rid of engineers, that would fix all the problems with tyres, wings, chassis, engines and electronics :)

#46 McGuire

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 12:31

Just keep them in their cubicles and out of the regulatory process.

#47 McGuire

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 12:39

Originally posted by zac510
Get rid of engineers, that would fix all the problems with tyres, wings, chassis, engines and electronics :)


Shakespeare wrote, "First, kill all the lawyers." A lot of people don't know this, but the passage continues: "Second, knock all the engineers upside the head, make them upgrade their wardrobes and go find girlfiends."

#48 WHITE

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 13:10

[QUOTE]Originally posted by imaginesix
[B]
Anyways, it doesn't particularly matter if you believe that TC visually impacts the racing. The mere knowledge that the system's purpose is to usurp some control from the driver is enough to compromise the spectacle as far as I'm concerned.

:up:

#49 Ben

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 13:51

Originally posted by McGuire
Just keep them in their cubicles and out of the regulatory process.


Unfortunately if engineers weren't involved in the regulatory process the regs would have even bogger loopholes to be exploited.

Carroll Smith always thought a frank discussion with the engineers in conjunction with the governing body was a better approach, and I tend to agree with him.

Ben

#50 McGuire

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 19:46

Sure, talk to them but don't ever let them run the show. It's like putting children in charge.