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Help with photo ID


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#1 Martin Roessler

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 01:43

Hello there,
found this original photo in my fathers album...no idea where or who it is...can anyone enlighten me?
cheers MartyPosted Image

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#2 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 18:32

:cat: I cannot solve this Martin but I can give you my guesses : Deropol , the truck and a Bugatti allthough it looks light in colour might not fit Germany , Italy , Spain or Britain. So left is Holland ,Belgium and France. And on, and on......... in the end I come up with this :

Satisfied men: because they have a Bugatti, perhaps not quite up to standard without a sparewheel etc. not knowing of the war rumbling in Germany, or ditto :because they just recovered the Bugatti after the war.
That means either 36/37 or 46/47.
I dont know what Deropol is , sounds Belgium or France but as the truck looks US I suggest Belgium. (de Roger/de Rook pol or so) Also B still uses white numberplats with (red)border. The truck looks as a bigger US model from around 1930+ (GMC fits in most points). The place could be a small depot for Deropol or with something like the above names a Servive station/Garage (Pol : Harbour/Base). The peace of white in the left of the pic could be a pole with Deropol sign or a support for some roof. The Bugatti then might be yellow.

#3 Rob G

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 18:58

I found this brief history of Derop. It indicates that it was a company distributing Russian oil in Germany. The rocks in the background would be a clue to people more knowledgeable about the topography of Germany than I am.

I'd also suggest that this Bugatti was probably white. In black and white photos of the era, yellow usually photographed darker than one would think.

#4 T-Man

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 19:05

looking at the numberplates, the Truck has VR which is Rhine Hessia (Mainz towards Bingen)

the white car had IZ which was assigned to the Rhine province, should be either the same or a nearby area. and the rocks in the background would suit the landscape close to the Rhine in that area

#5 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 20:34

This I enjoy , totally wrong and then it comes!

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 20:41

So they're just going out for a quiick blast while someone fixes their flat tyre?

Straps hanging on the side of the car...

#7 Martin Roessler

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 21:23

thanks alot for the answers so far.
yesterday i was trying to find information about the number plates but couldn't find anything on the net.
T-Man
that makes sense because my father grew up in ingelheim which is between mainz and bingen.
so the truck might be a company truck then (flags on both sides of the grille?)
The picture could very well been taken on the way to the nuerburgring.i remember that my father used to take the "old route" along the river rhine when we went to the races in the 70's and 80's.
The rocky landscape starts just after bingen when the valley narrows down.
My guess would be a service station on the B9 between bingen and koblenz.
I'm also wondering if there is a white number on the grille of the bugatti...
on the sign it says "Deropol das Auto Oel" and underneath "Wechsel" which means "change".
thanks again for your help
cheers marty

Posted Image

Posted Image

#8 Lotus23

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:32

Haircuts and clothing look more prewar than post. IMHO.

#9 Martin Roessler

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 14:06

got some new information about the numberplates....
VR-7811 was registered in Bingen.

IZ as T-Man mentioned before was assigned to the rhine province without Duesseldorf,including the region around Aachen,Koeln (Cologne), Bonn,Koblenz and Trier.
IZ-44933 was registered in Cologne as the number block IZ 44101 - 69100 was handed out from the "Polizeipraesidium Koeln"

as for the Bugatti...i did a very quick research and found out that it could either be a Typ 35A,37 or 37A,
a simpler version for road use (wire wheels,fenders and lights),basically a 4 cyl version of the Typ 35...
hope thats right :blush:
I'm trying to get some information from the city archives of Cologne..see what they have to say....
cheers Marty


#10 David McKinney

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 15:35

The narrow radiator suggests T37 (or 37A) rather than 35A

#11 dbw

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 19:58

judging from the position of the front motor mount bolts, it's a t37 ....the only signs of a blower would be on the other side of the car...as a 1.5 liter it could be used in local competition... the factory radiator guard + minimal street equipment suggests dual usage...

rather sporty looking bunch as well !!


[the well based rims suggest a later car..say 28-30 ish.]

#12 picblanc

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 20:31

It never ceases to amaze me what you guys can put together from an old B/W pic of no known origin of people unknown, this thread has just had me spell bound!! :up:

#13 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 07:27

Not the following one, I guess,

http://www.prewarcar...cle.asp?id=2219

but maybe on their way to one of the Eifelrennen events at the Nurburgring?

"...the German Grand Prix were then for sports cars... in contrast the Eifelrennen were for (open wheeled) racing cars..."

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C.

#14 humphries

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 12:00

The only racing driver of a Bugatti 37/37A from fairly close to Cologne (Koln) was Dr Heinz Risse who raced in the years 1929-1931 and came from Solingen. He raced at the Nurburgring a few times.

John

#15 Allan Lupton

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 14:51

Originally posted by humphries
The only racing driver of a Bugatti 37/37A from fairly close to Cologne (Koln) was Dr Heinz Risse who raced in the years 1929-1931 and came from Solingen. He raced at the Nurburgring a few times.

John


Near enough to Köln to be likely if the spread of the area where IZ registration was used goes as far east of the Rhein as it did West.
Date goes with the comment about wellbase wheels (above) although I can't say I've seen BE wire wheels on a T37.
Of course the photo could be taken up to 1935 (when ARAL took over Derop).

#16 Martin Roessler

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 21:40

thanks john and allan (and all the others)
i actually found quite a few (german) drivers of 37 and 37A's between 1929 and 1933 but there is very little information about them on the net...there is some interesting stuff about Willi Seibel from Diez...(thanks leif :wave: )
he used to travel and race with his mechanic Karl Michel,Seibel was driving a 37A from 1928 onwards after his 35B (or 37A?) was destroyed in a crash at the Ring in 1928 where he also suffered serious burns (thanks leif :wave: )
will make a list with all the other 37 drivers later....
thanks again everybody!!!
cheers Marty

#17 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 22:43

Albert E. Broschek was a well known Bugatti driver from Colonge. He drove a Bugatti 35B during 28 and 32. He came 2nd in class at the 1930 Eifelrennen

#18 dbw

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 01:10

early t37's were delivered with 710 x 90 be wire wheels [as were 35a's..even the early alloy wheels on t35 roller crank cars were be]...early 35's also had the narrow radiator..

#19 Rob Ryder

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:01

I don't want to start a new thread of this one, so I hope Martin will not object to me adding it here.

Bjørn Kjer recently sent me some clippings from old magazines, and this one has me puzzled..

Posted Image

The caption says Flockhart at Silverstone, but I can't find any record of Ron running #6 on a BRM P25. The crowd would indicate that it is not a test session, so can anyone help? Maybe someone recognises the photo?

The only P25 with #6 at Silverstone I have found is Jean Behra at the 1957 International Trophy. I think this is a later version of the P25.

Thanks
Rob

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#20 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:48

It's not Behra
and if you can rule out it isn't a practice or pre race shot it leads to

First question: Is Flockhart behind the wheel?
- It looks like him

second question: Is this Silverstone ?
third question: Is the number a 6 or a 16 or 26 ?

#21 Rob Ryder

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:46

Ron Flockhart at Silverstone in P25..

1956 British GP #25
1957 International Trophy #8
1958 International Trophy #2
1959 International Trophy #4

#6 P25 at Silverstone...

1957 International Trophy Jean Behra

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Rob

#22 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:56

again Is this Silverstone?
In the backgrounds stand a big tent may this'll help

#23 David McKinney

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 12:01

Unmistakably Flockhart
and not in any of the NZ races he contested

#24 Martin Roessler

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 14:55

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
so I hope Martin will not object to me adding it here.Thanks Rob


...i wont if you can identify the driver of my bugatti :wave:
cheers marty

#25 Rob Ryder

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 08:33

Bump :blush:

Has my BRM photos beaten the TNF gurus? I am shocked :eek: :eek: :eek:
Rob

#26 D-Type

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:21

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Bump :blush:

Has my BRM photos beaten the TNF gurus? I am shocked :eek: :eek: :eek:
Rob

Could it be something as simple as Flockhart trying out another team member's car during practice? Say Behra's car in 1957?

#27 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:22

It seems to be a 1959 spec. BRM (long engine air intake).
The British GP was at Aintree that year but there was an International Trophy race at Silverstone on May 2 and Flockhart came third. Motor Sport has no photo of that car so I don't know what number he was (Moss' BRM was 7, but then he often had that number)

#28 humphries

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:31

No mystery; simply incorrect information from the Black Book Vol 6.

Flockhart was #6 at the Silverstone International Trophy 02.05.1959.

Likewise Moss was #7 and Brabham #3, Burgess #4 and Fairman #5. Everything else is as in Vol 6.

I've no idea how the numbers got jumbled but to be fair to Paul Sheldon the corrected information was published in the Addenda of 1995 which also contains a great deal of additional information on the first eight volumes. This 83 page booklet is an essential to motor racing historians.

John

#29 Rob Ryder

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:40

My faith in TNF is restored :up:
Thanks, I can sleep peacefully now :)
Rob

#30 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:53

Originally posted by humphries
No mystery; simply incorrect information from the Black Book Vol 6.

Flockhart was #6 at the Silverstone International Trophy 02.05.1959.

Likewise Moss was #7 and Brabham #3, Burgess #4 and Fairman #5. Everything else is as in Vol 6.

I've no idea how the numbers got jumbled but to be fair to Paul Sheldon the corrected information was published in the Addenda of 1995 which also contains a great deal of additional information on the first eight volumes. This 83 page booklet is an essential to motor racing historians.

John

There are sometime mistakes with the black books but the same mistake is in the "green book" by a well known member of this forum. So we all belived what was written in the black and green bibles ;)

#31 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 15:45

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
Motor Sport has no photo of that car so I don't know what number he was


Since I posted that, I've looked at The Autocar and on p695 of the issue of 8/5/59 there a photo of Flockhart "making a welcome return to GP racing this season" in BRM no. 6 (as identified above) very similar (but not the same) as the original posting


#32 Rob Ryder

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 19:27

Thanks for taking the trouble Allan :up:
Rob

#33 Martin Roessler

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:57

a few days ago i wrote emails to the Landesarchiv NRW (Nordrhein-Westfalen) - Hauptstaatsarchiv Düsseldorf and the Historisches Archiv der Stadt Koeln, asking for the registration files of the Bugatti...
unfortunately none of those exist anymore :
so i hope someone can identify the car by recognising the driver/co-driver or maybe a TNF member stumbled across the car some 75 years ago AND can remember that :cat: ?
i find it very hard to get pictures of drivers like Willi Seibel,Heinz Risse,Ernst Burggaller etc. (maybe im just not good enough with google :rolleyes: )...was trying to find pics in some of my books but they are not specific enough....
found the book "the racing fifteen-hundrets" from David Venables,might have to get that
the search somehow got me interested in the "voiturettes"...
cheers Marty

#34 uechtel

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 12:02

Found this picture in Mike Riedner´s book "Doppelsieg" (Paul Pietsch Biography), p. 26/27:

Posted Image

Kesselbergrennen (Kochelsee - Walchensee hillclimb in upper Bavaria) 12.06.1932 with Derop sponsorship. Probably not the solution, but perhaps a clue.

#35 alessandro silva

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 13:13

Not Risse:
Posted Image

But it might be Seibel:
Posted Image

#36 dbw

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 01:24

theres a good chance that the car in the pietsch photo is chassis 4948 [ex factory- ex von morgan 35b] ..currently sitting in my garage... :)

#37 uechtel

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 06:47

It is a good chance as that is the chassis number that is mentioned for it in the book.

My congratulations!

#38 Martin Roessler

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Posted 14 January 2007 - 00:15

humphries
are you referring to Heinz Risse the writer (1898-1989) ?
cheers Marty

#39 Martin Roessler

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 12:14

hey there,
saw the other bugatti drivers thread and thought i'd give this thread a *bump*....
hope dies last... :rolleyes:
cheers marty

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#40 Martin Roessler

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:17

Hello there,

7 years it has been...and the identities of the driver/passenger are still a mystery.

I noticed the picture is not available in the original post so here it is again....

regards marty

 

whowherewhenweb.jpg


Edited by Martin Roessler, 08 May 2014 - 02:18.