187 replies to this topic

[2F-001]

Ah, so it is - I stand corrected. Thank you.

(I think it's been cleaned though!)

Edited by 2F-001, 25 February 2018 - 14:31.

[wolf sun]

This great site features aerial photography of the whole of Wallonia.

http://geoportail.wa...ie.be/home.html

What‘s more, you can overlay aerial pictures from 1971 with today‘s via a handy transparency slider. Zoning in on Francorchamps it becomes clear how the old Kemmel relates to the post `78 layout. As suspected, the original Kemmel turned right, then left, crossing the current straight, and came back to Les Combes corner roughly where today‘s footpath is.
Many more details to be found - it‘s literally hours of fun, if circuit history is your thing.

[wolf sun]

https://geoportail.w...C#CTX=default_t

This is the spot in question, the 1971 Kemmel is in the foreground, the current layout is in the background.

[LittleChris]

50 years ago today Pedro Rodriguez won the last Belgian Grand Prix held on the full course though the two wheeled fraternity continued to hold their Grand Prix there until 1978

[William Hunt]

Since people often confuse between Eau Rouge & Raidillon I will explain. The corner called 'Eau Rouge' dissapeared in 1939. The whole section going up to Kemmel is called 'Raidillon. Just in front of where the Raidillon starts there is a small river below it that has a bit of a red colour, hence it's name 'Eau Rouge' (= Red Water).

At this point, that's where the section first goes left today, there used to be a lef bend called Eau Rouge (up until 1938 this was the case) leading to a hairpin called 'l'Ancienne Douanne', after the hairpin the track returned back to Kemmel so they skipped what is called the upward Raidillon section entirely!

 

Some say that back then the sharp left hander leading on to Kemmel and coming from L'Ancienne Douanne was already called 'Raidillon' back then but I don't believe that's accurate.

The Raidillon was created in 1939 and it was and still is the complete hill section so including the left-right-left corners all the way to the top of the hill.

Eau Rouge is not there anymore since it was that sharp left bend going to l'Ancienne Douanne but somehow people keep calling the Raidillon 'Eau Rouge', in partiuclar English speaking reporters make this mistake non-stop.

The only thing that's called Eau Rouge today is the small river still flowing below the track there. That river is just past the white house and when you walk at that part of the circuit you can clearly see it and you'll notice that the track is actually a small bridge running over that water there.

 

If you look at the picture below you can clearly see where the old Eau Rouge corner was and where the l'Ancienne Douanne hairpin was and where it led back to Kemmel:

 

Edited by William Hunt, 08 June 2020 - 15:16.

[William Hunt]

And this is Eau Rouge, the river: no corner is named this way at least not since 1938.
Some locals call the section 'the Raidillon at Eau Rouge' which is correct because they mean the Raidillon at (or better above) the river:

 

 

A bit further in the forrest you can see that the river (well it's hardly a river really) has a peculiar red colour hence it's name 'Eau Rouge':

[Ray Bell]

An aerial photo from 1929...

 

 

The 'Ancienne Douanne' was a customs house under an older German regime.

[bigears]

I have been discussing with my friends about houses outside/inside the circuit or places we like to leave near a race circuit.

 

One person said what about this timbered house:

 

 

What the house used for in the past and now?

 

Thank you.

[bigears]

Same for the wooden building at the top of Raidillion?

 

 

What is it for again?

 

Thank you.

[Tim Murray]

The timbered building was part of the little hamlet through which the circuit used to run before being bypassed by the current road. It presumably was a private house in those days.

[bigears]

I have just found out that the timbered building is called Hotel de I'Eau Rouge meaning it later became a hotel and now it serves a conference centre/viewing gantry?

 

EDIT>> https://www.spa-fran...s_Receptifs.pdf

 

Edited by bigears, 03 January 2021 - 22:58.

[d j fox]

Same for the wooden building at the top of Raidillion?



What is it for again?

Thank you.

[d j fox]

Back in the 70s I was a regular visitor to the Spa 24 hour touring car race... many’s the time we purchased Stella Artois and frites avec mayonnaise from this timbered hut with a great view of L’Eau Rouge and the pits!

[Michael Ferner]

Ahhh, frites avec mayo - haute cuisine à la Belgique!

[bigears]

So the Radillion building was just a shack for food? But it seems like a big shack and it has always been there for quite a long time now. What is it originally was?

[BRG]

So the Radillion building was just a shack for food? But it seems like a big shack and it has always been there for quite a long time now. What is it originally was?

A big shack?  The Belgians eat a LOT of frites!

 

Checking the 1939 footage at #135, it doesn't seem to have been there then.  Nor is it in GPL sim for 1967.  So it was likely built specifically to serve the spectators up at the top of Raidillon.  Possibly the management of the cafe/bar live over the shop?

[wolf sun]

Maybe my mind is letting me down, but wasn‘t it a club house of some sort? Not the Club House, of course, but, you know, a house owned by...errm...a club?

[nmansellfan]

A big shack?  The Belgians eat a LOT of frites!

 

Checking the 1939 footage at #135, it doesn't seem to have been there then.  Nor is it in GPL sim for 1967.  So it was likely built specifically to serve the spectators up at the top of Raidillon.  Possibly the management of the cafe/bar live over the shop?

The hut / cafe / clubhouse / mecca for frites avec mayo enthusiasts wasn't there in 1970 - I think it was there by 1983, and pretty sure it was by 1985.  This is all based on quick checks during my lunch break at work of footage on YT around those years so apologies for the ambiguity as all the footage I checked was pretty low res!  I'm guessing it was built around the time the new circuit was developed and Radillon was reconfigured.

 

EDIT: Oops I just read d j fox's account of using the hut a few posts back, so I obviously did appear sometime in the 70's.

Edited by nmansellfan, 12 January 2021 - 13:04.

[LittleChris]

The hut at the top of the Raidillon was recently demolished as part of the current works taking place. 

[Doug Nye]

Oh dear - is the Raidillon itself being reconfigured after recent sad incidents there?

 

DCN

[LittleChris]

I'm not sure Doug. I'd like to see it return to the alignment in place in the mid 80's which would hopefully mean it's no longer flat out in an F1 car. 

 

The only track change I'm aware of is a by-pass for the un-named left before Pouhon for the bikes in order to create a bit of run off. Wonder how long it'll be before the F1 drivers decide they want to use it too 

 

Pictures of the works are being posted on the circuit website

 

News | Circuit of Spa-Francorchamps

Edited by LittleChris, 16 December 2021 - 18:42.

[2F-001]

I'm not sure Doug. I'd like to see it return to the alignment in place in the mid 80's which would hopefully mean it's no longer flat out in an F1 car. 

 

The only track change I'm aware of is a by-pass for the un-named left before Pouhon for the bikes in order to create a bit of run off. 

 

The 'un-named left' was called 'Copenhagen' when the 'new' circuit opened - all of the new corners were given the names of European capital cities (plus 'Liege'). None of them seem to catch on and soon other names were appended, some officially, some casually (and some, confusingly, used for different corners!) - though I've seen Bruxelles creep back into usage (in 'official' communications at least).

 

I agree with your wish for Eau Rouge, which would surely much lessen the problems with Radillon and thus necessitate less savage adjustment to the landscape (and retain some of the circuit's heritage - albeit only 40 years' worth).

Edited by 2F-001, 16 December 2021 - 19:18.

[d j fox]

I'm not sure Doug. I'd like to see it return to the alignment in place in the mid 80's which would hopefully mean it's no longer flat out in an F1 car.

The only track change I'm aware of is a by-pass for the un-named left before Pouhon for the bikes in order to create a bit of run off. Wonder how long it'll be before the F1 drivers decide they want to use it too

Pictures of the works are being posted on the circuit website

News | Circuit of Spa-Francorchamps

From a cursory glance at the work photos it appears that much of the tarmac run-off areas are being torn up and replaced with gravel which is all round better for the bikers There’s a 24 Heures Moto planned for next year and it’s been rumoured that Moto GP could be returning sometime
So... this might help in the seemingly endless “ F1 track limits saga” Let’s hope so!

[john ruston]

As an aside I noticed this year that there is a road with
Old Armco when you approach the circuit from Stavlot

It’s on the right immediately before the bridge carrying the new circuit

I always thought the approach road followed the old circuit but why ARMCO on a random road adjacent to circuit?

[LittleChris]

Maybe it's in case anyone exiting the RSR Workshop gets over enthusiastic 

[BRG]

Not clear where you mean, John?  The road from Stavelot was of course the old circuit and still has some traces of that, including lengths of armco which may in fact be more recent.

[d j fox]

Oh dear......

 

https://www.motorleg...L Actus N° 1525

[Vitesse2]

Copying this across from the Then and Now thread.

 

It was certainly built in time for the 1925 Belgian GP, here's Ascari crossing it.  Note new stonework on the bridge.

 

 

ST

 

This picture turned up on Facebook yesterday. Spa 24 Hours 1948, almost the same spot, although we can see that the pits look a bit dilapidated after a few years' neglect and a small passing conflict. Somewhat smaller crowd too. This is one of three Škoda 1101s and a Jawa Minor which all seem to have been entered by a Belgian dealer based in Liège, possibly the driver called Sauer who was in the #104 car.

 

http://wsrp.cz/nonchamp1948.html#17

 

A response to the picture suggests that his name may actually have been Saner and that he owned a villa at La Source on the site which is now the hotel,

[john winfield]

Some years ago Wolfsun posted this wonderful Smiths film of the 1961 race but, for me anyway, the footage isn't very sharp. I'll see whether this is crisper:

 

[nexfast]

Very crisp, thank you. A surprisingly very competitive Gendebien even if it was home turf. And complete Ferrari dominance.

[nmansellfan]

I hadn't realised until reading the current thread in RC about the safety of Eau Rouge / Radillion, that the corner sequence of the same name was made straighter not during the '79 rework of the circuit, but before the '83 F1GP.  There's a link to an article in that thread that suggests it was done becasue of a severe bump that couldn't be completely flattened out, so the line of the circuit was changed to avoid it - does anyone know if thats the actual reason for changing Eau Rouge / Radillion?  Certainly for the '83 GP the top of the hill was still very bumpy, as evidenced by this clip from the FIA review video of that year.  Keke certainly didn't lift over the bumps anyway...

 

 

https://youtu.be/8a0eZvfwEp8

Edited by nmansellfan, 19 July 2023 - 12:14.

[LittleChris]

Slightly unfortunate photo given events 3 years later but here's Stefan Bellof pictured at Eau Rouge / Raidillon in 1982 

 

1982 European Formula 2 Championship. Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium. 13 June 1982. Stefan Bellof (Maure (imago-images.com)

 

 

and Eddie Cheever a year later

 

Images Circuit de Spa Francorchamps (1983) (motorsportimages.com)

Edited by LittleChris, 19 July 2023 - 13:25.

[DCapps]

As I took a glance at the Formula1.com site today, I was informed of the following: "First Grand Prix – 1950."

 

Silly me, I guess my aging brain must have imagined the earlier races...

[70JesperOH]

As I took a glance at the Formula1.com site today, I was informed of the following: "First Grand Prix – 1950."

 

Silly me, I guess my aging brain must have imagined the earlier races...

 

Didn't see that, but right now they recognise the first non-championship Belgian GP to have been held in 1925. So do Formula1.com read TNF?

 

Jesper

[Collombin]

they recognise the first non-championship Belgian GP to have been held in 1925. So do Formula1.com read TNF?

Doubt it. TNF would have told them that it was a championship race.

[LittleChris]

Spa-Francorchamps: Histoire d'un circuit de 1896 à nos jours
par R. Bovy, Th. Galle et H. Maudoux. Ed La renaissance du livre. 2005. En français. 310x250.
Couverture cartonnée+jaquette (hardcover) . 210 pages
price 39,50 €

This is a very nice book about the History of Motor and Motor Cycling Racing at Spa Francorchamps.
It has a much more proffessional look.., than some of the other books about Spa-Francorchamps..
It is in French, however it is packed with intresting photos and results, and very worthwhile.
A great pity it was not translated (yet..)
It is for sale at Editions Palmier for 39,30 Euro

 

After many years searching I recently managed to get the English translation of this wonderful book for £3    

 

Some great photo's ( Malmedy in its 1930's slower format was almost totally unrecognisable compared to later). 

 

However there is reference to a part of the track I'd never heard of before called Meiz ( named after a village inside the track near Burnenville ) including a photo below 

 

  

 

[/url]

 

 

There is also a claim in the book that this was where Alan Stacey had his fatal accident in 1960. As far as I can see this piece of track is after the exit of the 2nd Malmedy ess onto the Masta straight ( The main clues being the old railway running parallel to the road and the long gone cottage in the background). It's also clear that there is quite a drop on the inside of the track where the Lotus would've ended up so I'm of the opinion that this claim is correct .

Edited by LittleChris, 08 December 2024 - 13:17.

[BRG]

Before the recent re-vamp of the track down the hill from La Source past the old pits, there was some sort of memorial or shrine on the outside of the track, in front of the old grandstand.  It has now gone with the grass run-off far wider and the stands now higher up the hillside.  Does anyone know what that this was?

[Doug Nye]

That sounds like the Freddie Charlier memorial - long since moved elsewhere.

 

DCN