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Alpine single seaters


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#1 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 16:29

A lot of things are write about the Alpine single seaters.

This thread would try to clarified all this and first about the model number.


The first Alpine single seater was the A270 F2 during the beginning of 1964
.
The design was made by Ron Tauraunac, as a consultant, and Richard Bouleau at Alpine. They built a very simple multitubular chassis and put a Renault Gordini engine, (who was built from the Renault R8 bloc. Amedé Gordini put 2 ACT and 2 weber DC for a 996 cc (71,5 x 62 mm) and reach a very poor 100 ch) and a Hewland Gearbox.

Jabby Crombac say in Sport Auto N°27 of april 1964 that he have see "Two complete cars for the first race : Pau GP with Mauro Bianchi and José Rosinsky. It was also two other rolling chassis and a third as building".

So, it's possible to think that 5 formula 2 Alpine A270 were a basic count.

The chassis number was on theleft side of the rear"traverse", and you can see chassis #1751 on this first picture take in Mars 1964. (I believe that it was the reason why some people speak of A270 Formula 2 as a 17...or something like that)

Here the A270#1751

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#2 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 16:37

This is an interresting view, with the rear and his bulbous form. The body and aerodynamic was make by Marcel Hubert.

[/img]http://img102.images...21964155id2.jpg[/img]

#3 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 16:38

oups sorry

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#4 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 16:58

During the same time, exactly the same chassis A270, was used for the brand new F3 1000cc, mainly by the works team with Henri Grandsire, Mauro Bianchi and Jean Rolland.

The engine was from a Renault R8 bloc and the preparation was by Marc Mignonet with about
80 ch.

The gearbox was the Renault R8 "Major" 4 + R

Very few people bought this model, because of the very late delay of delivering... (perhaps Henri Julien, the founder of AGS in 1970, was the only one ??)

So we can think about 4 or 5 F3 were built ??

here the F3 chassis version :

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#5 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 17:17

For the first outing of the brand new A270 F2 at Pau 1962, Jean Redelé had guest the great Graham Hill. Unfortunaltly, his car was too new and unprepared, so after some very slow laps on friday, and a panic saturday by a team definitively unable to do things correctly...Graham Hill say : "Enough" !

I like very much this pic who is the symbol of the return of French racing cars

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#6 Hieronymus

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 17:42

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand

Jabby Crombac say in Sport Auto N°27 of april 1964 that he have see "Two complete cars for the first race : Pau GP with Mauro Bianchi and José Rosinsky. It was also two other rolling chassis and a third as building".


Also in the F2 race at Pau on 5 April 1964 was entered Jacques Maglia. Henri Grandsire was in the Alpine in the F3 car at the same meeting.

Jean Vinatier also raced during 1964 in F2 for Alpine.

#7 Hieronymus

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 17:50

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
For the first outing of the brand new A270 F2 at Pau 1962, Jean Redelé had guest the great Graham Hill. Unfortunaltly, his car was too new and unprepared, so after some very slow laps on friday, and a panic saturday by a team definitively unable to do things correctly...Graham Hill say : "Enough" !


Gerard

It was 1964. Maglia took over from Graham and finished 10th. The car could not have been that bad, since the underrated Rosinski finished 4th and Mauro Bianchi in 5th.

#8 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 18:30

Hieronymus,

You're absolutly right! Of course, sorry... it's 1964, it's a fault of clavier !!
See post 1 for the correct year. (I hate this sort of mistake)

The car was not to bad with the chassis (designed by Tauraunac) but the engine was miserable...
José Rosinski finished 4th just because every body else have had problems and it was...2 laps behind. The engine was just under powered.

#9 MCS

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 19:02

Gerard, I must say I have (personally) found your posts here on TNF quite incredible.

Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful images and dialogue with us - it is absolutely fantastic!!!

Keep it coming (please!).

#10 Hieronymus

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 19:04

Gerard

So it is 100% confirmed that both the F2 and F3 chassis of 1964 was designated as A270?

I ignore reference to them as Alpine 16 and Alpine 17. You also mentioned it earlier in this thread. I have also read that some people believe that the F3 car of the time was called the A280.

#11 Hieronymus

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 19:18

Colour pic of the A270 (PHOTOGRAPHER AND VENUE UNKNOWN)

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#12 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 19:31

Do you know this one of Bernard Boyer and Jean Redelé auround the A270 F2....in 1964 (Yes I know !!!) with Mauro Bianchi at the wheel and José Rosinski, very smart, on beside ??
This is so Sixties picture....

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#13 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 19:33

Hieronymus,

I don't know who is the splendid driver behind the wheel ??

#14 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 19:44

Here it's a really glamourous pic of the ridiculous under powered Renault Gordini engine for the 1964 season of the Alpine F2 A270

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#15 Hieronymus

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 20:00

Splendid pics, Gerard! The driver in my photo is unknown. It just mentions the A270 during testing in 1964. No reference to who is behind the wheel.

#16 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 20:46

I liked it very much in those first years ,in F3 especially ,and allthough few in numbers and never the winner as much as some others , the Alpine certainly was not unsuccesfull. Could dig out results .

#17 Barry Boor

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 20:50

Here is a 1965 F.3 Alpine waiting for the start at Monaco - driver Henri Grandsire:

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#18 macoran

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 20:51

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Here is a 1965 F.3 Alpine waiting for the start at Monaco - driver Henri Grandsire:

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I can understand why the Alpine is wating for the start Barry, does history tell how long it waited?

#19 Barry Boor

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 20:55

Not long.... here it is at the moment of flag-fall:

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Or am I missing something here? :confused:

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#20 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 21:24

:smoking: Barry , your pictures :up:

#21 macoran

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 21:35

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Or am I missing something here? :confused:


No Barry, just that I have queer sense of humour sometimes.
The pic of the lone car on the grid with little populace in the background made
me think the rest of the field were long gone.Driver looking in the direction of the
race direction enhancing the feeling of .... shits..how come they saw the flag and I didn't.

#22 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 03:50

Thanks Barry,

Goog pics
(The blue of the Alpine is not exactly the good one ??)

It's the start of the second heat, with Henri Grandsire, who qualified for the final and Joseph Chouckroun (on a Cooper T72) who did'nt.

In final Grandsire finished at the 10th place of the Monaco GP 1965, win by Peter Revson on the Ron Harris Lotus 35

#23 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 04:07

It's interresting to compare the pics of Hieronymus and Barry (F2 and F3)

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#24 cosworth bdg

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 07:30

Originally posted by MCS
Gerard, I must say I have (personally) found your posts here on TNF quite incredible.

Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful images and dialogue with us - it is absolutely fantastic!!!

Keep it coming (please!).

I totally agree with what has been said by MCS....

#25 Hieronymus

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 11:01

I quickly checked some race results.

In 1964 only the Alpine works team existed with the following drivers competing in one or more races: Maglia, Bianchi, Rosinski, Vinatier, Grandsire and Rolland.

The next year (1965) the works had Grandsire, Vinatier, Bianchi, Jean Guichet and even Willy Mairesse. Several other drivers/teams also now entered Alpines:

Philippe Vidal (self entered and also driving for the works team)
Robby Weber (Jim Russell Racing Driver School and also Ecurie Volant Shell)
Jean-Jacques Dalmas (self)
Jean-Pierre Beynac (Ecurie Armagnac)
Philippe Bouillot (Ecurie Armagnac)
Jean Rolland (Ecurie Fabre)
Pierre Monneret (Self)
Henri Julien (self and also Scuderia Madunina)
Jean Audhuy (self)
Rene Abbal (self)
Dominique Uedo (Ecole Winfield)
Jose Rosinski (self)
Raymond Thollon (Ecurie Fabre)
Eugene Rebollo (self)
Jean-Claude Schoepp (self)
Daniel Lheraud (self)
Jean Max (Ecurie Mediterrane)

#26 Hieronymus

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 11:54

Grandsire on the front row at the Trophees d'Auvernge F3 race on 19 July 1964.

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(photo by Breuly, Clermont Ferrand)

#27 Hieronymus

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 14:41

Here is Bolide's version of the Alpine A270.

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#28 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 16:18

Very good jog Hieronymus !




The 1965 season was a good one for the commercial and Alpine sold a lot of F3 chassis in France.

For the Formula 2, 1965 was very hopeful in te begenning of the year :

After the big deception of the first underpowered engine built from a Renault R8, the Régie Renault allowed the "Sorcier", Amédé Gordini (66 years old) to develop a brand new engine for F2.

It was the Renault Gordini T58 : The only french racing engine of the period !

It was a true race engine, not a derivated of tourism car, with four cylinders of 997 cc (75,7 x 55,4 mm) with DOHC and a pair of 40 DCOE Weber. The power was 125 bhp at 9500 rpm.

Alpine kept the A270 chassis and put this new thing in it.

Helas, during the same time, Honda prepared his fantastic 140 bhp F2 engine, and the season was a new disaster. So Alpine leave before the end.

Personnaly, i've alway think that this engine look like a fifties engine, not like a true modern like the SCA, BRM or Honda...

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#29 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 16:22

An another interresting sketch ot this T58 Renault-Gordini F2 engine of 1965

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#30 Hubert Baradat

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 16:56

For non-french TNFers, here is the cover of Sport-Auto magazine which Gérard was speaking about.

Just imagine how happy we were : "the first french racing car since 10 years" ...

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From Sport-Auto nr 27 - April '64

#31 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 17:04

The 1965 first outing of the works F2 team was at Pau GP :

The engine was just finished a couple of days before and had never run !

The two cars of Jean Vinatier and Henri Grandsire missed the friday practice because their cars were not ready !

They qualified with the two last time at 9 and 11 seconds of the pole position !!!!! (taken by the Cooper BRM of Jackie Stewart)

For the race the infamous demonstration continued with Grandsire misfired at the queue of the race, before gat back definitively in the garage after a pit stop for change the sparks, and Vinatier finished last and 9th at ...4 laps ! (even if Grandsire and Brian Hart was classified behind him they were DNRF)

Here the brand new engine Renault Godini T58 put for the first time at Pau in the one year old Alpine A270 chassis

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#32 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 17:07

Hubert,

Great idea, and I see your copy is better mine !! (I have bought it...43 years ago...Oh my dear !!!)

#33 Hieronymus

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 17:09

Supreme nostalgia, Hubert! Hold on to that copy.

Here is a nice study of the right hand side of the A270. Mauro Bianchi at the wheel during the GP de Pau on 17 April 1966.

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(photographer unknown)

#34 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 18:30

Hieronymus,


The question is : does it still an A270 ?? or does they changed for A280 in 1966 ???

For sure, in 1967 the Alpine F3 became A280 model.
The works car of Patrick Depailler wear the number A280#1759 for all the season.

But, does the series of A270 was still operated in 1966, for the moment I don't know??

#35 Hieronymus

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 18:52

Gerard

I am not 100% sure. Do you perhaps have any Alpine books? Perhaps one will find the definate answer in there.

I know that some people suggest that A270 was regarded as the F2 chassis from 1964 to 1966 and that A280 was the F3 chassis for 1964 to 1966.

According to me the F3 in use by Patrick in 1967 was called the A330. That is anyway the model designation I attributed to him in my records that I have kept of his career.

#36 macoran

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 19:16

Originally posted by Hubert Baradat
For non-french TNFers, here is the cover of Sport-Auto magazine which Gérard was speaking about.

Just imagine how happy we were : "the first french racing car since 10 years" ...

From Sport-Auto nr 27 - April '64


Any good "nude"chassis pic in the issue you could scan for us Hubert?

#37 Hieronymus

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 19:29

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand

For sure, in 1967 the Alpine F3 became A280 model.
The works car of Patrick Depailler wear the number A280#1759 for all the season.


Maybe you are on the right path here. AUTOSPORT says that Patrick was in a 1966 car. This according to their report of the Pau F3 race on 2 Apr. 1967. They also mention that Bianchi was in a new car in the same race. I doubt, though, if Patrick used the 1966 all year long in 1967, since soon he was the top Alpine entrant that year, when Bianchi and Grandsire pulled out from F3.

Was A330 in use as early as 1967? This the question. In 1968 and 1969 they used the A330 in F3, but already I believe it was "b" and "c" evolutions respectively.

#38 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 20:02

Hieronymus,

Books about Alpine are rubbish, full of mistake, and we have to work on the archive to understand wats happend really

For me (at the moment) the story is :

Formule 3 Alpine

1964 : A270
1965 : A270 (12 built)
1966 : A270
1967 : A280
1968 : A330

Here a 1965 pic of a A270 chassis for the newcomer, and very late, Robby Weber. He's tryng the new thing

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#39 Hubert Baradat

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 20:50

Originally posted by macoran Any good "nude"chassis pic in the issue you could scan for us Hubert?

No, all the pictures of this issue have been scanned by Gérard up on this page ...

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#40 Hieronymus

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 05:54

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
Hieronymus,

Books about Alpine are rubbish, full of mistake, and we have to work on the archive to understand wats happend really

For me (at the moment) the story is :

Formule 3 Alpine

1964 : A270
1965 : A270 (12 built)
1966 : A270
1967 : A280
1968 : A330


Yes, that is what I have been told and why I never purchased any. They seem to be centered around the A110 and its success and the monoplaces are very much neglected. Race reports from SPORT AUTO, that I have, nowhere refer to model designation for the years 1966 and 1967. Your views above can be most accurate in the end.

Do you have a source who quotes A280 to be the 1967 F3 version? Any of these cars still in existance in Gaul?

#41 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 06:22

in Gaul !!????

Do you mean in France ? If it's that, I don't know.

The 1967 Alpine A280 F3 is clearly mentioned in the biography of Patrick Depailler write by Laurent Gauvin

#42 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 06:32

Here a fantastic period pic.

It's the first outing for Robby Weber at the wheel of the works Alpine A270 F3 early in 1965. The track is Monthléry, and the man in black who push the car is the aerodynamic Marcel Hubert !
Good old days...

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#43 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 06:39

And, on the same glorious day (but cold too...)

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#44 Hieronymus

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 07:58

Yes, France or Western Europe in general. It is most interesting to note that you mention Gauvin's book and his remark. I've given up on getting hold of a copy of his book. Numerous emails, letters, faxes were met by a no response! All attempts of correspondance failed.

Many thanks for the two splendid photos in the last posts. The colour sceme is again clearly stipulated. Will try later in the day to post details of drivers that competed in Alpines during 1966. First I must entertain the family.

A+

Marius

#45 Hieronymus

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 15:03

So for 1966, I have the following Alpine drivers:

In F2 the works team were again Bianchi, Grandsire with Carlos Pairetti the newcomer.

In F3 the works were Bianchi, Grandsire with occasional outings for Robby Weber, Patrice Grandsart, Wilson Fittipaldi, Jean Vinatier.

Private entrants in F3 included Grandsart (Ecurie Normandie) self entered ones for Raymond Thollon, Henri Julien, Gerard Brun, Alex Astruc, J-C Lhoro, Jean Meiffret, Francois Rabbione and Georges Taquet.

#46 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 16:26

Perfect : That give 8 privaters, and probably 4 works cars = 12 F3 produced

The only precision is for Roby Weber who drove quiet all the race for the works. I think he do more F3 race than the others...The surprise is Wilson Fittipaldi for one race. I've never heard before.

#47 Hieronymus

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 16:34

The results of the Rouen race on 10 July 1966 indicate that Wilson Fittipaldi finished 10th. He was in the works team with Bianchi and Weber for that race. Robby Weber finished 2nd.

#48 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 16:45

Yes, I've see for Wilson.

The 12 production F3 was for 1965...But I don't know the number make in 1966.

It could be a lot of second hand cars ??? Mystery

And does they are A270 or A280...Somebody can help us ???

We progress, slowly, but we progress !

#49 Bonde

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 18:54

Thanks for yet another important and interesting thread, Gerard!

I'm curious - why did Sport Auto (Crombac himself, I suppose) claim that had there not been built any any 'new' French single seaters since 1954? Surely there must have been lots of one-offs and small production runs of French single seaters, both in 500cc F3 and Formula Junior? Did the statement refer to a 100% French car - i.e. both chassis and engine - or just to cars entered in international championships?

#50 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 19:08

I think he would say the first french single seater, at an International level like F2 and F1.

For him 500, Junior and F3 was minor.