54 replies to this topic

[Dennis David]

I know of ol' number 11 but not 13. Any help?

The Reference Department, Allentown Public Library, is seeking
information on "Car #13", famous (?) in Grand Prix racing history. Any
info is desirable: driver, car/engine, dates, events, etc. Also
appreciated would be titles of any books containing information about
this.

A patron wants the info for her father, who used to be on the racing
circuit. thanks for any info you can give us.

PLEASE SEND REPLY TO: Pillstone@aol.com


------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Ray Bell]

Well, it wasn't Dick Seaman.
He was very superstitious about 13.
At Spa in '39 he drove car number 26, crashed at the 13km post and died in hospital room No 26. It was too late for him to reflect on it, but you could possibly say his number was up.
It sounds like this request comes from the fifties? Does Motor Sport help?

[Dennis David]

I'll see if I can get more info. As you probably know 13 was Rosemeyer's lucky number as it was unlucky for Seaman.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Ruud de la Rosa]

Did number 13 ever compete in a race??

[Dennis David]

I'm trying to get more info.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Marcel Schot]

In World Championship races, there's only 2 times a number 13 car drove :

Moises Solana in a BRM P57 in the 1963 Mexico Grand Prix. Qualified 11th and had an engine failure 8 laps from the end. Solana was classified 11th anyway in his first of 8 Formula One races.

The other time was Divina Galica in the 1976 British Grand Prix in a Surtees TS16. Galica didn't qualify for the race, ending up 28th in qualifying, just behind Jackie Ickx. In 3 tries, Galica never qualified actually. The other 2 attempts were in Argentina and Brazil 1978 for Hesketh.

[Racer.Demon]

Before closing off this thread we should at least mention why the FIA and several other race organizers are conspicuously avoiding appointment of the number.

The history of excluding No.13 as an entry number goes back to 1926, when Giulio Masetti died in a Maserati carrying the No.13 while taking part in the Targa Florio. Since then, the number has not been issued by organizers of motorsport events, even though a driver has the right to request it.

Which is exactly what Divina Galica did when entering the Shellsport International Group 8 series for second-hand F1, F5000 and F2 machinery and second-rate drivers, unofficially called the 'British F1 championship' but essentially a F Libre series. For 1978, the series would grow into the Aurora AFX championship, a 12-round series which lasted until 1980. In the 1976 British GP Galica had the honour of reintroducing the dreaded No.13 to the Grand Prix world, entering her Whiting-run Surtees TS16 originating from the Shellsports series.



Before, as Marcel pointed out, the number was issued only once in a World Championship event: to Moises Solana at his home GP of 1963. Does anyone know of non-championship races with a No.13 on the entry list?

As for the No.13, it's not the only number acting as a bad-luck charm. Back in the eighties, Satoru Nakajima refused to take the No.4 Tyrrell, even though this was a logical choice for the number two driver. As 4 is Japan's unlucky number, Europeans Jonathan Palmer and Jean Alesi had no trouble in relieving Naka-san of the curse hanging over his head...

Cheers,
R.D

[Marcel Schot]

A bit more digging brought up Divina Galica once again in the 1977 Race of Champions, carrying #13 on her Shell Sport Surtees TS19. Other than that, it seems a number carefully avoided.

[FEV]

Sorry to revive this ancester thread ! Just to add that if #13 is usually not attributed anymore in racing it is following a sad series of three fatal crashes among which Masetti's was the last. Before him, Matthys died following injuries received at the 1925 Coup Georges Boillot in Boulogne (#13 Bignan) and shortly after (19-09-1926) Torchy killed himself at the San Sebastian Grand Prix in Lasarte on his #13 Delage.

[Chris Bloom]

Without sounding too morbid. Does anyone have stats on what are the most dangerous numbers to have in Grand Prix racing? What are the most common numbers have accompanied drivers to fatal accidents?

Chris

[Richard Jenkins]

Chris' query, I'll have to have a look at - but there was only one other instance of #13 in a Grand Prix session & that was Carel de Beaufort who practiced in a number 13 car but I can't remember which GP it was! He qualified & raced in a different car altogether, IIRC, but I remember that there were three instances of 13.

[Prostfan]

Here are just a few (easy to find) numbers:


2 Ayrton Senna 1994, Luigi Musso 1958, Peter Collins 1958
4 Piers Courage 1970, Wolfgang von Trips 1961
6 Ronnie Peterson 1978, Francois Cevert 1973, Onofre Marimon 1954
8 Elio de Angelis 1986
12 Stuart Lewis-Evans 1958
14 Roger Williamson 1973
16 Tom Pryce 1977, Alan Stacey 1960
18 Jo Schlesser 1968, Lorenzo Bandini 1967
19 Helmut Koinigg 1974
22 Patrick Depailler 1980, Jochen Rindt 1970
27 Gilles Villeneuve 1982
28 Mark Donohue 1975
29 Carel Godin de Beaufort 1964
32 Roland Ratzenberger 1994; Riccardo Paletti 1982
36 Chris Bristow 1960

I don't see any real "dangerous" numbers...

[Bostromi]

Was it a smooth way to avoid #13 to only use even numbers for a period in F1.
What years was this the rule?

Per

[Rob29]

No rule but a practice used by some organizers.last used sometime before 1973 when fixed numbers for the season were introduced.

[Chris Bloom]

Originally posted by Prostfan
Here are just a few (easy to find) numbers:



I don't see any real "dangerous" numbers...

The majority are even numbers. Does this indicate that number 2 drivers are more prone to fatal accidents then the number one driver?

Chris

[birdie]

There was no 13 in the World Kart Champs this year, I assumed it was my friend who it should have been being superstitious (never asked) but I guess it could have been the FIA

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Chris Bloom


The majority are even numbers. Does this indicate that number 2 drivers are more prone to fatal accidents then the number one driver?

Chris

No, just that for many years organisers gave all entries even numbers

[Rob G]

Looking at the drivers who died after the 1973 full-season numbering policy went into effect, it is amazing how many of the numbers are even, even though both even and odd were used during this time.

2 Ayrton Senna 1994
6 Ronnie Peterson 1978, Francois Cevert 1973
8 Elio de Angelis 1986
14 Roger Williamson 1973
16 Tom Pryce 1977
19 Helmut Koinigg 1974
22 Patrick Depailler 1980
27 Gilles Villeneuve 1982
28 Mark Donohue 1975
32 Roland Ratzenberger 1994; Riccardo Paletti 1982

[David McKinney]

Thanks Rob - and apologies to Chris:)

[Chris Bloom]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Thanks Rob - and apologies to Chris:)

No need for apologies David. I never even realise that organisers used to give all competitors even numbers. Why was this?

Chris

Mika, David, Juan or Ralf?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Chris Bloom

I never even realise that organisers used to give all competitors even numbers. Why was this?

I'm not sure - but it may have been specifically to avoid No.13 - and 17, about which the Italians apparently have similar reservations

[Vitesse2]

Luis Fontes won the 1935 JCC International Trophy at Brooklands in an Alfa Romeo bearing the number 13. He had originally entered in an MG, but had just bought the Alfa and switched at the last moment - rather than use his original number, he was allocated 13, I think at his own request. Just to make it really unlucky, the number was painted in green!

[Henri Greuter]

About the unlucky numbers,

when other series are involved, I suppose 4 is kind of unlucky too.

Bill Vukovich got killed at Indy in 4 in 1955
And how about the 1985 and 1986 Lancia Martini entries at the Rally of Corsica that were numbered 4?
(Driven by Attilio Bettega and Henri Toivonen....)


I know there was a time in which organizers only gave even numbers, perhaps to avoid handing out the 13 and the 17 (Italy's unlucky number)
And to avoid the clash about whom to give the supposedly lucky number 7?

Henri Greuter

[ry6]

I was talking to Clive Trundell a few weeks ago. He used to race a Cooper T51 Climax in South African F1 events in the early 60's and used the #13.

I asked him why he used this number.

He said :

a) I was not superstitious

b) As nobody else ever wanted it I never had to repaint the number on my car at different events!

Clive must be in his mid 70's to-day so #13 did not turn out to be unlucky for him.

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
17 (Italy's unlucky number)

It shows : 87 entries in WC races, 4 points finishes:
Piero Taruffi, 1952 British GP in a Ferrari (2nd)
Lorenzo Bandini, 1965 Monaco GP in a Ferrari (2nd)
Renzo Zorzi, 1977 Brazilian GP in a Shadow (6th)
Nicola Larini, 1997 Australian GP in a Sauber (6th)

[Dironey]

The majority are even numbers. Does this indicate that number 2 drivers are more prone to fatal accidents then the number one driver?

2 Ayrton Senna 1994
6 Ronnie Peterson 1978, Francois Cevert 1973
8 Elio de Angelis 1986
14 Roger Williamson 1973
16 Tom Pryce 1977
19 Helmut Koinigg 1974
22 Patrick Depailler 1980
27 Gilles Villeneuve 1982
28 Mark Donohue 1975
32 Roland Ratzenberger 1994; Riccardo Paletti 1982

Add 16 Peter Revson 1974.

Even though the numbers are even, many of those were in fact number one drivers - Senna (Williams 2, 0), Williamson (March 14), Pryce (Shadow 16, 17), Revson (Shadow 16, 17), Depailler (Alfa 22, 23), Donohue (Penske 28).

[Vitesse2]

Found on the BARC website, here is Luis Fontes in the green-numbered Alfa:



Looks to me like it came with 3 painted on the grille and he's also extended the roundel on the side! Certainly the 1 and 3 look to have been painted at different times.

[arttidesco]

Staggering how many drivers lost their lives in even numbered cars F1 cars post 1973, no wonder Schumi did not fancy the No:4 when he went to Mercedes GP.

Mean time here is Davina Galicia in her F2 days, suffered no misfortune in her #13 Formula 2 March 792 she didn't set the world a light in it either, glad she persevered shame she never go to qualify for an F1 race.

[ensign14]

Staggering how many drivers lost their lives in even numbered cars F1 cars post 1973, no wonder Schumi did not fancy the No:4 when he went to Mercedes GP.

That was because (a) many organizers did not issue odd numbers or reserved them for practice, and (b) Schumi did not fancy a number that suggested he was inferior to Kekinho.

[arttidesco]

That was because (a) many organizers did not issue odd numbers or reserved them for practice, and (b) Schumi did not fancy a number that suggested he was inferior to Kekinho.

Even so (no pun intended) see post 26 above since 1973 when all numbers apart from #13 were issued, only Koening and Villeneuve have lost their lives in odd numbered cars which must be statistically significant ?

[ensign14]

Not really, it's just a freak. 2 out of 12, but it might be 2 out of 10 as Elio's and Depailler's cars may not have been numbered at testing.

[arttidesco]

I take your point Patrick's car may have been unnumbered but he had been running the #22 all year.

But lets not go there I really do not wish to find out if his car was numbered or not.

More to the point I should have been precise is saying since all odd and even numbers were available (including incidentally Davina's favoured #13) in 1973 it must be statistically significant that all but two drivers who lost their lives while at the wheel were driving even numbered cars.

[ensign14]

It's only statistically significant if one believes there's a correlation between the number and the accident.

[arttidesco]

So to clarify are we saying if an event happens more often with an even number than an odd, 12 - 2 in this case, it is not statisically significant ?

In other words can we say there is a correlation between even numbers and Formula One driver fatalities since 1973 ?

Edited by arttidesco, 17 June 2010 - 08:31.

[Rob]

Surely it's time that the sport started using the number 13? How can such a high-tech sport allocate numbers based on such a silly superstition?

They don't withold the number 4, even though the Japanese are superstitious about it.

[uechtel]

TMK "Statistically significant" means that the probability, that it is just random coincidence is less than a certain value. There is no absolutely value, it depends on where you draw the line (5%, 1%, 0.1% etc.) to regard something "significant." 5% are "usually accepted", but that is only a convenience. Anyway there will be always the probability of an error (that it looks like a correlation while in reality there isn´t). It is no proof for a real causal connection.

Edited by uechtel, 17 June 2010 - 08:40.

[arttidesco]

Thanks for clearing that up Uechtel been a long time since I studied or had to consciously use statistics :-)

[Michael Ferner]

"Car #13, famous in Grand Prix racing history"? Hm, that's rather difficult. Louis Wagner won the Sankt-Peterburg-Moskva race in 1908 on a 50hp Fiat, but that was hardly "Grand Prix racing". Maybe Jules Goux's Peugeot EX1 in the 1912 Grand Prix, that was a famous car, but only one of three and his team mate won the race. Paolo Zuccarelli on the Lion-Peugeot EX2 at the Grand Prix in Le Mans? A "Voiture Légère" race that was given preference over the proper GP cars on that day?? Hardly. André Dubonnet on his big Hispano-Suiza at the 1922 Gran Premio d'Autunno? Meo Costantini on the Bugatti T35 at San Sebastián in '24, or at Montlhéry in '25? He didn't win either, though, but he won at Monza in '26 on a T35C. Trouble is, that were three different cars! Frankly, I don't see any candidates on the scale of "Old #16"...

[Michael Ferner]

Before closing off this thread we should at least mention why the FIA and several other race organizers are conspicuously avoiding appointment of the number.

The history of excluding No.13 as an entry number goes back to 1926, when Giulio Masetti died in a Maserati carrying the No.13 while taking part in the Targa Florio. Since then, the number has not been issued by organizers of motorsport events, even though a driver has the right to request it.

I'm afraid that's poppycock, Mattijs! Number 13 has been issued quite often in the years after 1926 by race organisers all over the world, and some drivers even have made it their personal number. And why would anybody exclude a number because of a fatal accident??? I'm pretty sure that every imaginable number has been involved in fatal accidents over the last 115 years or so, and there must be other reasons for the reluctance to issue #13. It's almost certainly connected to superstition, and not to any real or imagined accidents.

[wrighty]

Surely it's time that the sport started using the number 13? How can such a high-tech sport allocate numbers based on such a silly superstition?

Oddly enough, all stock car meetings hosted by Steve Rees at Belle Vue (the speedway/greyhound arena) in Manchester never have a race 13....Steve's superstitious (he's told us himself) and has grave concerns that bad things can happen so he always lists his races as race 12, then race 12a, then race 14

[Terry Walker]

Number 13 was a favourite personal number of more than one Western Australian driver. This 1950s homebuilt special has never had any other number, and is still racing today in Historics as No 13. Never crashed, it must be said.



On the other hand, the Caversham circuit had this grid, probably tongue-in-cheek knowing Aussie humour, but just possible catering to superstitious drivers. (The red Cooper didn't crash either, and is still racing, also in Historics, but not in Western Australia).

[James L. Kalie]

Re: #17 being an unlucky number in Italy. Remember that this was Ugo Sivocci's number at the time of his death while practising for the Italian GP at Monza on September the 8th, 1923. He was Enzo Ferrari's best friend at the time. Enzo later credited him as the man most responsible for getting him his start in Motor Racing. His loss was devastating to Enzo and the first of the three deaths that most impacted his early racing life. Ugo Sivocci, Antonio Ascari, Giuseppe Campari. Ugo was so revered that Alfa Romeo withdrew from the event. This led to the scrapping of the P1 and the aquisition of Vittorio Jano to the Alfa staff. By 1925, the number 17 had clearly taken a place in Ascari's mind because he objected to Giorgio Rimini, Alfa Romeo Team Manager, that the Alfa Corse was leaving for the French GP on the 17th and that event was now cursed. Rimini cited Ascari's belief in a series of articles he wrote in 1926. It was at that event on June 28th. 1925 that Ascari was killed. Superstition's were very big in those days, today, not so much. See, history can be interesting! All the best, James L. Kalie, Orange, CA

[Formula Once]

Oddly enough, all stock car meetings hosted by Steve Rees at Belle Vue (the speedway/greyhound arena) in Manchester never have a race 13....Steve's superstitious (he's told us himself) and has grave concerns that bad things can happen so he always lists his races as race 12, then race 12a, then race 14

If I remember correctly, Yves Courage ran a number 13-car at Le Mans as recently as a few years ago.

[ensign14]

Courage almost always ran a number 13 car. Joe Weatherly was so superstitious he once started from 12Ath position. 17, despite being the Italian 13, was happily used by Osella and Larini.

[fbarrett]

In the mid-to-late 1970s, a friend, Hal Shaw, from Vail, Colorado drove a Porsche Carrera RSR in the Trans-Am series bearing the number 13. For a privateer who a few years earlier had been "just one of us autocrossers", he did well, finishing third in the 1976 championship (if I recall correctly). Sadly, though, he later died in a road accident in Colorado, so maybe the number 13 is indeed unlucky after all.

Frank

[Chris Skepis]

JP Sarti won the Monaco GP in 1966 with number 17. But lost the British Gp on the last corner (to Pete Aron in flames!!!) also with the 17., and got killed at Monza with number 4 !!!
Well, now being serious, if I remember well Gerrad Mitter drove a Brabham number 13 in Nurburgring 1968 (at least in practice).

[Kevan]

Courage almost always ran a number 13 car. Joe Weatherly was so superstitious he once started from 12Ath position. 17, despite being the Italian 13, was happily used by Osella and Larini.

I think Courage ran number 13 right up to being taken over by ORECA a few years back. Currently the Swiss-entered Rebellion Racing Lola team (used to be Speedy-Sebah last year) use 13:

2009- http://www.endurance...ebellionBis.jpg

2010 http://www.planetlem...on-httt-mtc.jpg

[Catalina Park]

The number 13 has been on the winning car at Bathurst twice. (66 and 68)

[Michael Ferner]

Car #13 was also used regularly by Sprint Car drivers/owners like Tom Alley, Stag Nowicki, Bill Stapp (brother of "Babe"), Tony Radetich, Art Foley, Billy Snyder and Jack Schostag but, like all the above examples, these can hardly be considered as being "famous in Grand Prix racing history"!

[Rob G]

13 has also been used recently in IndyCar racing, including one year by the HVM team owned by Keith Wiggins, so there's a link to Grand Prix racing history for you.