3460 replies to this topic

[metz]

According to Gerry Donaldson on TSN, he quotes a McLaren insider that Ron will continue to pay Alonso but will not have him drive for his or any other team next year.
That answers a lot of speculation, unless, that's what it is.;)

[beanoid]

Max and Bernie would never allow it. Max would use this as an opportunity to rain further penalties down on the man he hates more than anyone in the world, Ron Dennis. Remember he said he wouldn't tolerate any form of retaliation against Alonso?

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by beanoid
Remember he said he wouldn't tolerate any form of retaliation against Alonso?

If it is Alonso's choice?

[beanoid]

Well, that would be a whole different ball of wax, but the opening post says "Ron will not have him drive for his or any other team."

[Buttoneer]

That's not the exact quote so it could mean anything.

[giacomo]

Isn't it a 3-years-contract, making it 2008-09 to sit out for Alonso?

[beanoid]

Buttoneer: Right. In fact, this whole thread is bollocks, and I'm not even sure why I bothered posting to it.

EDIT: giacomo, there's an option for 2009, which I'm sure neither side is too keen to exercise.

[giacomo]

Thanks.

[Oho]

Originally posted by beanoid
Max and Bernie would never allow it. Max would use this as an opportunity to rain further penalties down on the man he hates more than anyone in the world, Ron Dennis. Remember he said he wouldn't tolerate any form of retaliation against Alonso?

Was that threat extended to next season or just the remainder of the ongoing season? If the FIA start barging in on McLaren's internal employment matters like that I'd say they were well out of their jurisdiction and it would be difficult to justify. I'd venture out to guess the strongest argument Alonso could level against being benched is performance based contract if he has one.

[stevewf1]

Alonso can sit out the rest of his career as far as I'm concerned...

[fifi]

Originally posted by beanoid
Max and Bernie would never allow it. Max would use this as an opportunity to rain further penalties down on the man he hates more than anyone in the world, Ron Dennis. Remember he said he wouldn't tolerate any form of retaliation against Alonso?

if rons still paying alonso then he can specify that he cant drive for someone else while hes under contract

anway i think the whole things bollocks

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by beanoid
Buttoneer: Right. In fact, this whole thread is bollocks, and I'm not even sure why I bothered posting to it.

That's true of a lot of threads these days but still, the OP has used his own words to get across a rumour of a quote, and the actual quote could be anything.

[metz]

Originally posted by Buttoneer

That's true of a lot of threads these days but still, the OP has used his own words to get across a rumour of a quote, and the actual quote could be anything.

Which quote?
Donaldson - which everyone heard or
the McLaren "insider" that revealed this.
I can only tell you what was broadcast just before the race.
It was in response to a direct question from Vic at TSN.

[asterix]

bernie gallstone doesnt have anything against dennis ....

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by metz

Which quote?

Exactly my point.

[HP]

Originally posted by beanoid
Max and Bernie would never allow it. Max would use this as an opportunity to rain further penalties down on the man he hates more than anyone in the world, Ron Dennis. Remember he said he wouldn't tolerate any form of retaliation against Alonso?

It depends what the contract says for Alonso. Not what the Bernie and Fia wants. If McLaren decided to have FA sit out next year, and the contract with FA gives them that option, then I think Ron will stick to his principles, even if that means further punishment.

[Dudley]

Ah, another "Bollocks presented as news in topic title" thread.

How thrilling.

[Massa_f1]

Good ridence to bad rubish if he does worst sportsman in F1 by far we could do without him.

[MartinAston]

It's true, I hear Ron has managed to get MS to drive along side Hamilton next year in his place...

[indian]

Speed TV commentators were speculating that if Hamilton had won the championship in China, McLaren might even have put Pedro in the car for Brazil.

[VoidNT]

Originally posted by HP
It depends what the contract says for Alonso. Not what the Bernie and Fia wants. If McLaren decided to have FA sit out next year, and the contract with FA gives them that option, then I think Ron will stick to his principles, even if that means further punishment.

Somehow I doubt that Alonso's management was so dumb to sign a contract which does not guarantee a Grand Prix drive for 2xWDC during his employment.

For Ron, much better alternative would be to sell Alonso's contract for 2008 to Toyota. Toyota won't be a championship contender next season and therefore Fernando would be out of McLaren's way. Toyota maybe is the only one team ready to pay very big $$$, and McLaren needs extra money to pay the fine. Toyota even could agree with Alonso's condition to release him after 2008 if he signs contract with Ferrari, because they desperately want to try a star driver even for one season.

[Josta]

Originally posted by fifi


if rons still paying alonso then he can specify that he cant drive for someone else while hes under contract

anway i think the whole things bollocks

I doubt the CRB would have any problem in seeing Alonso break his contract if he wanted. The spy scandal did that by itself, and anyway, Fernando has a contract as a race driver with McLaren. If McLaren don't cover their side, (ie. giving him a car to race), then FA doesn't have to cover his side and can go elsewhere.

[Suntrek]

Originally posted by indian
Speed TV commentators were speculating that if Hamilton had won the championship in China, McLaren might even have put Pedro in the car for Brazil.

Thanks for the laugh of the day, Speed TV!

[kyriakos75]

Originally posted by metz
According to Gerry Donaldson on TSN, he quotes a McLaren insider that Ron will continue to pay Alonso but will not have him drive for his or any other team next year.

If it's true then FA has one more motive for a first corner "race incident" in Brazil ;)

[FLB]

Originally posted by VoidNT
Somehow I doubt that Alonso's management was so dumb to sign a contract which does not guarantee a Grand Prix drive for 2xWDC during his employment.

You mean like Montoya's? McLaren might simply 'suspend' Alonso for the rest of his contract, just like they did for Montoya after Indy last year. That's the precedent.

Now the question would become what could Alonso do to free himself from his contract and how long would that take?

[Josta]

Originally posted by FLB

You mean like Montoya's? McLaren might simply 'suspend' Alonso for the rest of his contract, just like they did for Montoya after Indy last year. That's the precedent.

Now the question would become what could Alonso do to free himself from his contract and how long would that take?

Monty left, he wasn't suspended.

[kyriakos75]

Originally posted by VoidNT


Somehow I doubt that Alonso's management was so dumb to sign a contract which does not guarantee a Grand Prix drive for 2xWDC during his employment.

For Ron, much better alternative would be to sell Alonso's contract for 2008 to Toyota. Toyota won't be a championship contender next season and therefore Fernando would be out of McLaren's way. Toyota maybe is the only one team ready to pay very big $$$, and McLaren needs extra money to pay the fine. Toyota even could agree with Alonso's condition to release him after 2008 if he signs contract with Ferrari, because they desperately want to try a star driver even for one season.

[Lurb]

I'll believe this when RD announces new sponsors.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Josta
I doubt the CRB would have any problem in seeing Alonso break his contract if he wanted. The spy scandal did that by itself, and anyway, Fernando has a contract as a race driver with McLaren. If McLaren don't cover their side, (ie. giving him a car to race), then FA doesn't have to cover his side and can go elsewhere.

Then again, not necessarily. Alonso has publicly said he could see himself remaining at McLaren, despite the scandal. Strained intra-team relations are nothing new to F1. McLaren could take disciplinary actions for Alonso's comments against the team (i.e. suspend him for an undetermined time), without saying they'd never give him a car to race again.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Josta

Monty left, he wasn't suspended.

Then why couldn't he do anything else before he was freed from his contract? Ganassi wanted him in the car ASAP, but there were contractual conflicts (sponsors, etc.).

Even if Montoya never wanted to race for Dennis again, he wasn't going to race for anybody else until McLaren freed him.

[the9th]

I don't think Dennis can do that. And that wouldn't go well with Banco Santander.

[Josta]

Originally posted by FLB

Then why couldn't he do anything else before he was freed from his contract? Ganassi wanted him in the car ASAP, but there were contractual conflicts (sponsors, etc.).

Even if Montoya never wanted to race for Dennis again, he wasn't going to race for anybody else until McLaren freed him.

Because he chose to leave and Ron let him. That is a whole different scenario to telling a driver they can't race. Ultimately, Ron could have forced Juan to drive but that is not really possible, (all Monty would do is crash the very expensive car). Contractually, both sides need to honour their bit and if they don't there are grounds to go elsewhere.

[jokuvaan]

Monty left, he wasn't suspended.

Greetings to parallel universe

[512 TR]

Originally posted by stevewf1
Alonso can sit out the rest of his career as far as I'm concerned...

So should Ron, Lewis and Bernie as far as I'm concerned...

[jimpo]

That would be so outrageous, lol. Actually hoping to see that happen. Poetic justice, baby!

[FLB]

Originally posted by Josta
Because he chose to leave and Ron let him.

Bingo.

What if Ron doesn't do the same for Alonso? What if he is even willing to take the whole thing to Court to get a good old-fashion injunction? Just to keep Alonso under wraps?

The CRB is only an arbitration Court by which participants to the FIA F1WC agree. It's not a supra-legal instance.

[teomolca]

Originally posted by Buttoneer

If it is Alonso's choice?

It's not, he said a few days ago he will race in 2008, no matter what team it was.

I guess it's just down to negotiation now. FA doesn't wanna stay, Ron doesn't want FA to stay, but he would like less to let FA go to another team and get beaten by him in 2008. Plus if by chance FA wins the WDC again, then he would take the nº1 away, now that would really piss off Ron after having built the best car his 2 drivers being 1st and 2nd he would have to carry number twentysomething on the car (plus worse position in pitlane).

FA intends simply to get the best possible car for 2008, he would rather not be in McLaren, but it's better to have a good car with bad company than a bad car in a friendly environment (if you want to win). Up to yesterday I thought FA had no problem staying in Macca even with a broken relationship with Ron because there was fair treatment with the equipment. But considering what FA said yesterday (implying his car was not as good as LH's) and what he said today ("let's hope my car is quick not only in Q1 and Q2") confirming he believes McLaren are purposedly giving him a worse car, I really doubt he'll stay.

[flyer72]

Alonso will race next year - if it isn't at McLaren he will race somewhere else. If you think that Ron Dennis may consider letting Alonso sit out the remainder of the contract you are utterly wrong. Noone will act that stupid.

The question should be where will Alonso race next year?

[Dudley]

Originally posted by flyer72
Alonso will race next year - if it isn't at McLaren he will race somewhere else. If you think that Ron Dennis may consider letting Alonso sit out the remainder of the contract you are utterly wrong. Noone will act that stupid.

The question should be where will Alonso race next year?

Well, Australia, followed by Malaysia and Bahrain. I won't spoil the surprise after that.

[vsubravet]

Everyone seems to accept that FA-Mclaren contract is for 2008; I strongly suspect that includes 2009 also. RD HAS to let FA go to another team and he MAY well choose NOT to let him go. And they could pick-up the option for 2009 (if it exists) and FA will have to continue. Maybe they will mend the broken relations over the winter. Strange things can happen.

[Josta]

Originally posted by FLB

Bingo.

What if Ron doesn't do the same for Alonso? What if he is even willing to take the whole thing to Court to get a good old-fashion injunction? Just to keep Alonso under wraps?

The CRB is only an arbitration Court by which participants to the FIA F1WC agree. It's not a supra-legal instance.

The CRB decides, amongst other things, super licenses. They also decide which contracts are valid for the FIA F1 championship. If Ron wanted to take things to a higher court, he could do so, of course. If the CRB decided that Alonso could drive for Renault or Ferrari in 2008, then he would. McLaren could only take the case to the law courts for breach of contract, for which FA could quite easily show breach of contract the other way around, (if McLaren said he couldn't drive for them). Either way around, they couldn't stop him from working for Ferrari or Renault, (or whoever). All they could do is impose a financial penalty.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Josta


The CRB decides, amongst other things, super licenses. They also decide which contracts are valid for the FIA F1 championship. If Ron wanted to take things to a higher court, he could do so, of course. If the CRB decided that Alonso could drive for Renault or Ferrari in 2008, then he would. McLaren could only take the case to the law courts for breach of contract, for which FA could quite easily show breach of contract the other way around, (if McLaren said he couldn't drive for them). Either way around, they couldn't stop him from working for Ferrari or Renault, (or whoever). All they could do is impose a financial penalty.

That's absolutely not true. I'm sure that Alonso and McLaren have a perfectly valid contract, and I'm sure CRB would acknowledge that. The CRB CANNOT overturn the contents of that contract, unless the contract absolutely says that Alonso MUST be sat in the racing car at McLaren next year there's f*** all Alonso or the CRB can do about it.

Personally I still think after Alonso wins the WDC in Brazil there will be a lot of healing over the winter. If Hamilton wins it - I actually think that still might happen. Dennis is a professional, he does what is best for his team. Alonso needs to do some reflecting and if he's a professional he'll come back and fight against Hamilton again. Running scared doesn't look great on the resume of a 2 times WDC.

[Josta]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
That's absolutely not true. I'm sure that Alonso and McLaren have a perfectly valid contract, and I'm sure CRB would acknowledge that. The CRB CANNOT overturn the contents of that contract, unless the contract absolutely says that Alonso MUST be sat in the racing car at McLaren next year there's f*** all Alonso or the CRB can do about it.

Personally I still think after Alonso wins the WDC in Brazil there will be a lot of healing over the winter. If Hamilton wins it - I actually think that still might happen. Dennis is a professional, he does what is best for his team. Alonso needs to do some reflecting and if he's a professional he'll come back and fight against Hamilton again. Running scared doesn't look great on the resume of a 2 times WDC.

I am not entirely sure where you are coming from here. De Facto, the CRB can do whatever the **** they want, given the fact that it is they who decide who to give or revoke super licenses to. As for contracts, I can guarantee that Alonso will have a contract as a RACE DRIVER. Do you honestly think that a 2 X WDC will have a contract that allows for the possibility of a test drive?

Like I said, there are a number of reasons where the CRB will allow for a contract to be broken on either side. One of these will be overall integrity. The spy scandal has given more than enough ammo for Alonso to say "I don't want to be associated with these people".

But once again, the purpose of this thread was to say that Ron could tell Alonso to not drive. He has no such option. If Alonso wants to drive, he will. That is end of story and there is nothing that Ron could do about it.

[noikeee]

Ok, the portuguese autosport is saying it's now certain Alonso will move to Ferrari in 2009, a deal done with Luca di Montezemelo behind the back of Jean Todt. Next season, Alonso could move to... Red Bull or Williams. Massa would go to Toyota as previously rumoured.

http://autosport.cli...s.stories/34910

Doesn't sound impossible, but still, these guys are a bit too happy in releasing this sort of stories. I wouldn't read into this as anything more than a rumour.

[Rogue]

Without trying to discredit that report, that would leave Todt in an unsustainable situation at Ferrari having been undermined by his own boss. I wonder if that might see him move on as well, and continue Ferrari's apparent clean out of Schumacher era people (willingly or unwillingly - different discussion).

Certainly it appears completely unrealistic to imagine Alonso diring for McLaren in 2008 with the comments flying to and fro over the China GP weekend.

[teomolca]

I've also hear that rumour in TV (FA to Ferrari in 2009 and to drive somewhere else in 2008), but the way they told it here Montezemolo didn't go behind Toadt, Toadt retires in 2008.

But up until friday I thought FA would stay in Macca in 2008, cause he had been keeping his mouth shut the last few weeks (despite Ron accusing him of the blackmail which FA just said it's not true but didn't give a reply) and when questioned he replied he had a contract with Macca and there was no probs. But after Q3 on saturday he believes Macca is no longer giving him equal mechanical treatment and has made it clear in the press. So IMO that's the No return point.

Plus all the teams waiting on their lineups does indicate FA's exit of McLaren will happen (WDC or no WDC). Williams, Toyota and Renault IMO all are waiting on that.

[nestor]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
That's absolutely not true. I'm sure that Alonso and McLaren have a perfectly valid contract, and I'm sure CRB would acknowledge that. The CRB CANNOT overturn the contents of that contract, unless the contract absolutely says that Alonso MUST be sat in the racing car at McLaren next year there's f*** all Alonso or the CRB can do about it.

Personally I still think after Alonso wins the WDC in Brazil there will be a lot of healing over the winter. If Hamilton wins it - I actually think that still might happen. Dennis is a professional, he does what is best for his team. Alonso needs to do some reflecting and if he's a professional he'll come back and fight against Hamilton again. Running scared doesn't look great on the resume of a 2 times WDC.

running scared of whom? of hamilton ? get a grip , it must be running scared of RD and his dishonest team .

[eoin]

Originally posted by paranoik0
Ok, the portuguese autosport is saying it's now certain Alonso will move to Ferrari in 2009, a deal done with Luca di Montezemelo behind the back of Jean Todt. Next season, Alonso could move to... Red Bull or Williams. Massa would go to Toyota as previously rumoured.

http://autosport.cli...s.stories/34910

Doesn't sound impossible, but still, these guys are a bit too happy in releasing this sort of stories. I wouldn't read into this as anything more than a rumour.

If it is true then Luca di Montezemelo should be hung out to dry. Alonso is damaged goods. Renault will take him back as they need a top driver, as NK is unproven as of yet. However ferrari have two very fast drivers and bringing in Alonso will just stir it up. It's pretty much saying to kimi that they don't believe he has what it takes. I don't think many people think that way. What happens if kimi matches/beats alonso- will he have matured enough by then to stop throwing the toys out of the pram, or will he claim that Ferrari are sabotaging his car to make Kimi look better than he is?

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by eoin


If it is true then Luca di Montezemelo should be hung out to dry. Alonso is damaged goods. Renault will take him back as they need a top driver, as NK is unproven as of yet. However ferrari have two very fast drivers and bringing in Alonso will just stir it up. It's pretty much saying to kimi that they don't believe he has what it takes. I don't think many people think that way. What happens if kimi matches/beats alonso- will he have matured enough by then to stop throwing the toys out of the pram, or will he claim that Ferrari are sabotaging his car to make Kimi look better than he is?

If he does indeed go to Ferrari in 09 then yes I'd say it would be exactly the same scenario as Mclaren this year. He'd spit the dummy and destabilise the team. Kimi/Massa is working very well - the exact opposite of whats happening at Mclaren and adding Alonso to the mix would do more harm than good. Major blunder by LDM if true.

Re: Dennis making Alonso sit out 08 - I highly doubt this will happen. More likely he gets a seat at a mid grid team who'd be happy to have a double WDC in their team even if it is only for one year. Otherwise - Flav may be able to wrangle a two year contract and Alonso would go there. Personally I think he'll get back on speaking terms with Dennis (just barely) and hang in there for one more year.

[Cosmograph]

Alonso will never drive for a mid grid team for a year. Why do Ron a favour? He'll insist on staying at McLaren and put the ball in Ron's court (i.e. I have a contract and of course I'll honour it so give me my race seat, etc.). He'll wait for Ron to be in breach. In a battle between Flavio and Ron, I'd put my money on Flavio's cunning in advising FA.

If FA moves, its to stick it to Ron in 2008. I fully expect a FA less McLaren to regress next year. Let's wait and see.